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Indie Game Development Discussion Thread | Of Being Professionally Poor

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How do you all feel about code academy?

It's a pretty awesome resource imo. I've used it a bit to refresh myself on Python and JavaScript.

Unfortunately the languages on there aren't too commonly used with game programming, but it's still great for learning the fundamentals, and those will translate to whichever language you end up using.
 

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
Some things done today.

Enabled a smooth falloff of indirect light. This localises the bounced light a little more but I think it's more physically correct.

Added some vanilla shadowing. Very basic but helps in debugging, helps explain why a surface may not be receiving an indirect bounce that you might think should be.

Also messed with wall colours and higher resolutions just for fun. I think I should probably get a more powerful PC. My mac mini cried when I turned up the resolution :(

yT7XVd6.png


RRvsqOm.png


I really want to implement a non-circular 'box' spot light, which would be a lot more correct for this right now, but for some reason that's turning out to be less trivial than I thought.
 

missile

Member
I've got the final equation implemented! And hell, everthing works pretty,
pretty good, and pretty, pretty smooth!
cheers.gif
Gifs incoming...


Nice. Keep going!

... I think I should probably get a more powerful PC. My mac mini cried when I turned up the resolution :( ...
Better not. If anything, get the physical model right and try to optimize the
algorithms/methods used until going for higher resolution and friends. But
yeah its tempting to res-up everything, I know, but from my experience it
deviates way too much from the problem. That's similar to may rocket stuff,
which looks like a stick figure! xD
 

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
I've got the final equation implemented! And hell, everthing works pretty,
pretty good, and pretty, pretty smooth!
cheers.gif
Gifs incoming...

Congrats, looking forward to seeing :)


Nice. Keep going!


Better not. If anything, get the physical model right and try to optimize the
algorithms/methods used until going for higher resolution and friends. But
yeah its tempting to res-up everything, I know, but from my experience it
deviates way too much from the problem. That's similar to may rocket stuff,
which looks like a stick figure! xD

You're very right...I would be tempted to gallop off into unrelated niceties with a more powerful machine rather than focusing on core issues. I have to stop myself from prematurely optimising too. I will definitely get a showcase rig before the game releases though, but at the moment having such a relatively modest machine does encourage some discipline.
 

JulianImp

Member
You're very right...I would be tempted to gallop off into unrelated niceties with a more powerful machine rather than focusing on core issues. I have to stop myself from prematurely optimising too. I will definitely get a showcase rig before the game releases though, but at the moment having such a relatively modest machine does encourage some discipline.

Yeah, I think that's best. After all, not all your potential players are going to have a top-of-the-line gaming rig, so it's better to make sure things run on a modest machine rather than simply upgrading the hardware to make optimization problems seemingly go away.
 

missile

Member
Congrats, looking forward to seeing :)
Hehe, thx! Coming up...

... You're very right...I would be tempted to gallop off into unrelated niceties with a more powerful machine rather than focusing on core issues. I have to stop myself from prematurely optimising too. I will definitely get a showcase rig before the game releases though, but at the moment having such a relatively modest machine does encourage some discipline.
To circumvent this issue I do let my phantasy go and imagine how it would
look like on stage and how it could be part of the game in question. Well,
mate, I once learnt a good lessen; a faster machine will just give you the
wrong answer faster
.
 

Feep

Banned
Congrats, looking forward to seeing :)




You're very right...I would be tempted to gallop off into unrelated niceties with a more powerful machine rather than focusing on core issues. I have to stop myself from prematurely optimising too. I will definitely get a showcase rig before the game releases though, but at the moment having such a relatively modest machine does encourage some discipline.
After optimizing, have you thought about selling the whole lighting package on the Unity Asset Store? Might get you some nice cashflow. = D
 

Ashodin

Member
So after entering in gobs and gobs of words, I've come up with a radical concept of searching for words in Construct 2, but I don't know how to exactly make it work.

Suffice it to say, if this works, I'll be able to just copy and paste a whole list of words for Construct 2 to find.
 

CreativeSK

Neo Member
I love your very meticulous work :)



Ah!! Sorry if I put you to any trouble. Basically the blue tint was due to bad compression of the flux in the RSM. In Dachsbacher's implementation, he compresses the flux into a 8 bit float in order to save a vertex texture fetch in the splat shader. I was using a 16-bit render target for the RSM, so his compression wasn't suitable.

I initially solved that by just rendering the flux out to a separate render target, as a full vector, uncompressed.

However I've figured out how to compress it into a 16-bit value to save using that extra render target... but tbh I don't notice much performance difference. And under some occasional circumstances a subtle bit of 'blue' still appears in the white flux. So I might switch back.

dont worry, no trouble involved. the blue tint being a compression artefact kinda makes sense. looks pretty good in motion aswell. so whats next on ur agenda?
 

Jobbs

Banned
I've done some work on the character art for the character driven first act of the game, but there's much left to do. I plan to do a ton of custom environment work for this portion.

But here's kinda the idea. Here you can see Charley, Rook, and Pasha (Pasha is riding on Rook's back right now).

rookcharleyss2.png
 

bumpkin

Member
I've done some work on the character art for the character driven first act of the game, but there's much left to do. I plan to do a ton of custom environment work for this portion.

But here's kinda the idea. Here you can see Charley, Rook, and Pasha (Pasha is riding on Rook's back right now).

rookcharleyss2.png
Looks sweet, man. Keep up the good work!
 

Blizzard

Banned
I've done some work on the character art for the character driven first act of the game, but there's much left to do. I plan to do a ton of custom environment work for this portion.

But here's kinda the idea. Here you can see Charley, Rook, and Pasha (Pasha is riding on Rook's back right now).

rookcharleyss2.png
The character sprite on the let looks neat, and so did the witch since I didn't mention it!
 

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
Yeah, I think that's best. After all, not all your potential players are going to have a top-of-the-line gaming rig, so it's better to make sure things run on a modest machine rather than simply upgrading the hardware to make optimization problems seemingly go away.

Yeah. Plus optimisation will benefit players with higher end rigs anyway...

Hehe, thx! Coming up...


To circumvent this issue I do let my phantasy go and imagine how it would
look like on stage and how it could be part of the game in question. Well,
mate, I once learnt a good lessen; a faster machine will just give you the
wrong answer faster
.

:)

After optimizing, have you thought about selling the whole lighting package on the Unity Asset Store? Might get you some nice cashflow. = D

There's a couple of questions that would have to be addressed first.

One is what Unity's plans for the standard pipeline is. Future iterations might bundle this kind of rendering as standard.

Another is compatibility with other effects either created by the user or purchased off the store. Because this is a totally custom pipeline, it may not be compatible, or made easily compatible, with other effects out of the box. That might be an OK tradeoff though for some users.

And then third, of course, is what you allude to...that as of now, this is really a prototype. There's some things that need to be done before it's game ready.

But I am eating my own dog food here, so to speak. I do intend this for a game. So if that worked out, it was reasonably production ready, and some of the other questions above resolved positively (or weren't big issues)...then, yes. Would love to.

dont worry, no trouble involved. the blue tint being a compression artefact kinda makes sense. looks pretty good in motion aswell. so whats next on ur agenda?

Next is getting importance sampling working, which will be good for performance and quality. Then investigating more light types - point (cube map?), directional. Then investigating multiple lights, which will probably be a big lot of work - and really the big deal maker/breaker wrt game applicability. And also non-diffuse materials, glossy reflections. The paper suggests this technique will work well for glossy indirect lighting, caustics etc. but we'll see.

Then there are other papers on RSMs that have some possible vectors for advancement...bidirectionality for better sampling again, maybe incorporating ISMs as an option for further quality improvement. Occlusion of indirect lighting would be nice.
 

Metal-Geo

Member
Some things done today.

Enabled a smooth falloff of indirect light. This localises the bounced light a little more but I think it's more physically correct.

Added some vanilla shadowing. Very basic but helps in debugging, helps explain why a surface may not be receiving an indirect bounce that you might think should be.

Also messed with wall colours and higher resolutions just for fun. I think I should probably get a more powerful PC. My mac mini cried when I turned up the resolution :(

http://i.imgur.com/yT7XVd6.png[/IG]

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/RRvsqOm.png[/IG]

I really want to implement a non-circular 'box' spot light, which would be a lot more correct for this right now, but for some reason that's turning out to be less trivial than I thought.[/QUOTE]
The idea this is realtime is quite mind-boggling to me. It usually takes minutes to render something that good with 3D rendering software!

[quote="Jobbs, post: 70891331"]I've done some work on the character art for the character driven first act of the game, but there's much left to do. I plan to do a ton of custom environment work for this portion.

But here's kinda the idea. Here you can see Charley, Rook, and Pasha (Pasha is riding on Rook's back right now).

[img]http://www.ghostsonggame.com/screens/rookcharleyss2.png
Love the 'sense of depth' in your artwork. Stellar work!
 

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
sorry dude what's RSM?

just curious

RSMs are Reflective Shadow Maps.

If you know how Shadow Maps work, they're like those, but store information about how the light reflects off the surfaces the light is pointing at. And you can use that info to generate indirect lighting. The original paper is here.

The idea this is realtime is quite mind-boggling to me. It usually takes minutes to render something that good with 3D rendering software!

Ha, well these shots weren't realtime on my mac mini :) They were from a 720p run, I just wanted to see how it looked at a higher res. But 640x480 is more reasonably realtime on this machine...
 

CreativeSK

Neo Member
Next is getting importance sampling working, which will be good for performance and quality. Then investigating more light types - point (cube map?), directional. Then investigating multiple lights, which will probably be a big lot of work - and really the big deal maker/breaker wrt game applicability. And also non-diffuse materials, glossy reflections. The paper suggests this technique will work well for glossy indirect lighting, caustics etc. but we'll see.

Then there are other papers on RSMs that have some possible vectors for advancement...bidirectionality for better sampling again, maybe incorporating ISMs as an option for further quality improvement. Occlusion of indirect lighting would be nice.

Different light types is always a good idea. So jeah for pointlights u can either use a cubemap or two parabolic maps. Directional lights are pretty straight forward aswell. just use an orthogonal projection instead of a perspective one. Getting the right performance with many lights is what will be a challenge (but not an unsolveable one). Glossy reflections look quite nice with SII, but once u try to approximate caustics with it the performance rly goes to hell. ISMs for indirect shadows are quite nice aswell, but ur performance will suffer tremendously at that point. Did u read about Light Propagation Volumes yet? LPVs are not that far off if ur already running SII.


sorry dude what's RSM?

just curious

RSMs are Reflective Shadow Maps. Its a paper from dachsbacher/stamminger which introduced a method to approxmiate global illumination in realtime back when it was realeased in 2005. A RSM is basicly an extended shadowmap which also saves normals, position and the flux in order to recreate the lighting from the cameras perspective. That way every shadowmap pixel is turned into a potential pointlight that can be used to create the impression of a lightbounce.
 

Toma

Let me show you through these halls, my friend, where treasures of indie gaming await...
Quick reminder that I love all of you guys and that you really can post your stuff in the monthly Indie threads as well if you have something to show. We love seeing pictures, gifs, videos, gameplay prototypes etc over there. I promise we wont shout at you! Feel free to post in there once in a while if you use a bit of common sense and dont spam the thread with 30 posts a page (you know, like I always do :p)

July thread:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=608986

We had a few devs stepping into the unchartered terrain that is the Indie thread, and I think all of them made it out alive. We cant (and arent supposed to) offer the same dev discussions, but feel free to inform us once in a while. I love helping Indie devs out and that is the least that thread can do for you.

In never ending Indie love and Steam sale tiredness,
Toma
 

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
Different light types is always a good idea. So jeah for pointlights u can either use a cubemap or two parabolic maps.

Will have to look into parabolic maps. Thanks.

Directional lights are pretty straight forward aswell. just use an orthogonal projection instead of a perspective one. Getting the right performance with many lights is what will be a challenge (but not an unsolveable one). Glossy reflections look quite nice with SII, but once u try to approximate caustics with it the performance rly goes to hell. ISMs for indirect shadows are quite nice aswell, but ur performance will suffer tremendously at that point. Did u read about Light Propagation Volumes yet? LPVs are not that far off if ur already running SII.

I would ideally like to implement and compare as many approaches as possible :) And LPV is one I should do.

In my game I plan to have a standard unity pipeline, and then this one, which I'll probably label as Experimental. So for me, it'll be open season. I kind of hope my game can be a long term project that can keep evolving to keep up with the best in realtime tech - or the best that I can make. That would be an ideal goal for me, I'd love to be in that position. And I don't mind so much pushing into 'barely viable' territory...I think one of the nice things about an indie game is you can really go balls out if you want and really give high end PCs something to munch on. I sort of miss the days when PC-exclusive devs did things that kind of forced me to dial my resolution down to 640x480 :p Though scalability will be pretty important for my game (in terms of light multiplicity and geometry complexity). And wherever possible within this pipeline I'll let people toggle improvements on or off, and dial other things up and down. Like ISMs for example, if I do use them, could be an on/off thing.

Anyway, many miles to go...
 

CreativeSK

Neo Member
Will have to look into parabolic maps. Thanks.



I would ideally like to implement and compare as many approaches as possible :) And LPV is one I should do.

In my game I plan to have a standard unity pipeline, and then this one, which I'll probably label as Experimental. So for me, it'll be open season. I kind of hope my game can be a long term project that can keep evolving to keep up with the best in realtime tech - or the best that I can make. That would be an ideal goal for me, I'd love to be in that position. And I don't mind so much pushing into 'barely viable' territory...I think one of the nice things about an indie game is you can really go balls out if you want and really give high end PCs something to munch on. I sort of miss the days when PC-exclusive devs did things that kind of forced me to dial my resolution down to 640x480 :p Though scalability will be pretty important for my game (in terms of light multiplicity and geometry complexity). And wherever possible within this pipeline I'll let people toggle improvements on or off, and dial other things up and down. Like ISMs for example, if I do use them, could be an on/off thing.

Anyway, many miles to go...

I know what u mean. I miss those days aswell :D. In that case ISM or LPV would be the next logical step. Any thoughts about Voxel Conetracing in the far future? :D anyways keep the up the good work. As soon as I got some more free time I'm gonna post some of the stuff ive been working on aswell.
 
I've done some work on the character art for the character driven first act of the game, but there's much left to do. I plan to do a ton of custom environment work for this portion.

But here's kinda the idea. Here you can see Charley, Rook, and Pasha (Pasha is riding on Rook's back right now).

rookcharleyss2.png

This game looks incredible. I can't believe you do all the graphics yourself. I wonder why developers act like 2D graphics is so impossible to do with even a moderately sized team.
 

Blizzard

Banned
This game looks incredible. I can't believe you do all the graphics yourself. I wonder why developers act like 2D graphics is so impossible to do with even a moderately sized team.
It might be that Jobbs is an artist or has an art background, rather than a programming one. A lot of indie game developers may be the opposite. :p If you have more than one person, artist + programmer can probably work pretty well though.

Things like Stencyl, Construct 2, and Game Maker are making it more possible for the people without as much developer experience to make their own games. I almost feel like it is more difficult to become a good artist than to learn development tools, but I went after software engineering as a career, so art tends to be magical to me.
 

missile

Member
3 ... 2 ... 1 ... BOOM!
NYbUA7g.gif

That's it! Six weeks of hard work.
A 6-DOF fully non-linear rigid body simulator including variable mass written
in plain C. All equations were derived from scratch. The code is pretty small
and works on just plain data-structures and has no external dependencies
making future integration into any framework as plain as day.


The rocket (dimmed yellow line) consist of two stages with their centers
indicated by a yellow dot, respectively. The lower stage, the one closer the
bottom, carries double the weight as the upper stage. Hence, the center of
mass (white dot) is more towards the lower stage, initially. About 90% of the
lower stage is propellant fuel getting burned at a given rate once the rocket
lifts off from the ground at full thrust. At the tail end of the lower stage
there is a nozzle indicated with a dimmed white line showing the amount of
propellant fuel (white: full, black: empty).

The rocket starts with a given angular velocity at lift-off time. The nozzle
is held down such that all the thrust is generated in the upward direction
lifting the rocket off from the ground. During this time the thruster embedded
within the lower stage produces thrust by burning fuel at a given rate pushing
it through the nozzle. This consumption of propellant will reduce the mass of
the lower stage and will also reduces the weight of the rocket and as such
increase its acceleration even more. And due to the loss in mass of the lower
stage, the center of mass will shift towards the upper stage of the rocket.

A few seconds after lift-off, but before burnout, the nozzle suddenly tilts
out producing a disaster. In tilt position the nozzle produces a moment/torque
on the lower stage of the rocket until burnout. Since the thruster is still
burning at full thrust, the center of mass keeps moves right to the center of
the upper stage. During this time the center of mass, which also equals the
center of rotation of the rocket, moves father and father away from the
nozzle. The generated angular momentum coupled with the change in inertia of
the lower stage due to propellant burning, and due to the increase in distance
of the lower stage to the center of mass, will lead the rocket to tune over.

This becomes only possible this way by carefully considering the non-linear
gyroscopic term (wxIw) within the angular momentum equation, which is fully
implemented here, and, in addition, by including the time rate of change of
the inertia tensor -- which, according to my knowledge, is something new for
video games, not even speaking about variable mass / center of mass.

The feature of having a rate of change of mass that influences the whole
system can even be useful for games outside of any realism. For, one can
consider the rate of change of mass as a parameter. You may specify a constant
rate or make this rate a function all by itself. Since the rate of change of
mass influences the mass distribution, and as such the motion of the object
under consideration, one may produce quite interesting motion patterns. That
is to say, one may build some mass-rate function that will, as an effect,
shift the center of mass from one point to another and as such influences the
motion of the object. Can be pretty cool, something to experiment with.

Next-up:
(a) Runge-Kutta of order 4 for all equations
(b) Wings / Airfoils
 

Jobbs

Banned
This game looks incredible. I can't believe you do all the graphics yourself. I wonder why developers act like 2D graphics is so impossible to do with even a moderately sized team.

Thanks. :)

I think the way in which 3D graphics is "easier" has more to do with the flexibility it provides. It's easy to change the appearance of the characters, what they're holding, wearing, whatever, since it's all real time. 2D art has its own appeal but is difficult to have the same freedom and flexibility with.

I don't know that it's particularly hard to make a 2D game. Wayforward is a relatively small development studio and they make really top notch 2D games. I think the reluctance for most studios to go 2D is because making a 2D game imposes some limitations and developers find this unappealing.
 

Servbot24

Banned
It might be that Jobbs is an artist or has an art background, rather than a programming one. A lot of indie game developers may be the opposite. :p If you have more than one person, artist + programmer can probably work pretty well though.

Things like Stencyl, Construct 2, and Game Maker are making it more possible for the people without as much developer experience to make their own games. I almost feel like it is more difficult to become a good artist than to learn development tools, but I went after software engineering as a career, so art tends to be magical to me.

Depends on the art you're doing. To be a concept artist for a big studio takes an unreal amount of study, practice and dedication, far more than is achievable in 4 years of school. To do something simpler like pixel art, if you have good tastes in color palettes you can probably get some really nice stuff with a year of practice.
 

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
3 ... 2 ... 1 ... BOOM!
NYbUA7g.gif

That's it! Six weeks of hard work.
A 6-DOF fully non-linear rigid body simulator including variable mass written
in plain C. All equations were derived from scratch. The code is pretty small
and works on just plain data-structures and has no external dependencies
making future integration into any framework as plain as day.


The rocket (dimmed yellow line) consist of two stages with their centers
indicated by a yellow dot, respectively. The lower stage, the one closer the
bottom, carries double the weight as the upper stage. Hence, the center of
mass (white dot) is more towards the lower stage, initially. About 90% of the
lower stage is propellant fuel getting burned at a given rate once the rocket
lifts off from the ground at full thrust. At the tail end of the lower stage
there is a nozzle indicated with a dimmed white line showing the amount of
propellant fuel (white: full, black: empty).

Congrats, this is really cool :) I imagine it's pretty fun to tinker with. And wings could make for some really awesome dynamics.
 

MrOddbird

Neo Member

A simple corridor from the horror game I've been making.

While the models themselves might be very simple, the 512x512 textures give a lot of detail and depth.

Add in a heightmap and a normal map and the scene starts to look much better!

Making these textures as big as possible is important as there might not be that many elements in the scene. For example, this corridor uses only two materials in total: a wood material and a rock material.

Most of the materials in the game are done in the same manner and are tilable, so there are no jaggy edges.

In this manner, any model can easily be tiled for any material, so the process is very fast and I don't have to concentrate on making many models.

Obviously, prop models require more detail and many areas are currently, pretty empty.
Adding smaller props and decals should do the trick.

I will be releasing a trailer at the end of summer, when I hopefully have an alpha build ready.
 
There's a couple of questions that would have to be addressed first.

One is what Unity's plans for the standard pipeline is. Future iterations might bundle this kind of rendering as standard.

Another is compatibility with other effects either created by the user or purchased off the store. Because this is a totally custom pipeline, it may not be compatible, or made easily compatible, with other effects out of the box. That might be an OK tradeoff though for some users.

I think the important question is just whether or not you want to deal with supporting it.

Unity will always be adding things. If this is a concern for you, you should just ask one of the Unity devs (forums or Twitter). They are usually forthcoming about their priorities (though not about ship dates, of course).

As long as you are clear about the possible incompatibility, I don't see this as a problem. You can't test against all other packages by any means.
 

hayguyz

Banned
3 ... 2 ... 1 ... BOOM!
NYbUA7g.gif

That's it! Six weeks of hard work.
A 6-DOF fully non-linear rigid body simulator including variable mass written
in plain C. All equations were derived from scratch. The code is pretty small
and works on just plain data-structures and has no external dependencies
making future integration into any framework as plain as day.


The rocket (dimmed yellow line) consist of two stages with their centers
indicated by a yellow dot, respectively. The lower stage, the one closer the
bottom, carries double the weight as the upper stage. Hence, the center of
mass (white dot) is more towards the lower stage, initially. About 90% of the
lower stage is propellant fuel getting burned at a given rate once the rocket
lifts off from the ground at full thrust. At the tail end of the lower stage
there is a nozzle indicated with a dimmed white line showing the amount of
propellant fuel (white: full, black: empty).

The rocket starts with a given angular velocity at lift-off time. The nozzle
is held down such that all the thrust is generated in the upward direction
lifting the rocket off from the ground. During this time the thruster embedded
within the lower stage produces thrust by burning fuel at a given rate pushing
it through the nozzle. This consumption of propellant will reduce the mass of
the lower stage and will also reduces the weight of the rocket and as such
increase its acceleration even more. And due to the loss in mass of the lower
stage, the center of mass will shift towards the upper stage of the rocket.

A few seconds after lift-off, but before burnout, the nozzle suddenly tilts
out producing a disaster. In tilt position the nozzle produces a moment/torque
on the lower stage of the rocket until burnout. Since the thruster is still
burning at full thrust, the center of mass keeps moves right to the center of
the upper stage. During this time the center of mass, which also equals the
center of rotation of the rocket, moves father and father away from the
nozzle. The generated angular momentum coupled with the change in inertia of
the lower stage due to propellant burning, and due to the increase in distance
of the lower stage to the center of mass, will lead the rocket to tune over.

This becomes only possible this way by carefully considering the non-linear
gyroscopic term (wxIw) within the angular momentum equation, which is fully
implemented here, and, in addition, by including the time rate of change of
the inertia tensor -- which, according to my knowledge, is something new for
video games, not even speaking about variable mass / center of mass.

The feature of having a rate of change of mass that influences the whole
system can even be useful for games outside of any realism. For, one can
consider the rate of change of mass as a parameter. You may specify a constant
rate or make this rate a function all by itself. Since the rate of change of
mass influences the mass distribution, and as such the motion of the object
under consideration, one may produce quite interesting motion patterns. That
is to say, one may build some mass-rate function that will, as an effect,
shift the center of mass from one point to another and as such influences the
motion of the object. Can be pretty cool, something to experiment with.

Next-up:
(a) Runge-Kutta of order 4 for all equations
(b) Wings / Airfoils

why do all of your posts have such short lines, you know you don't have to hit enter, right?
 
Gah! Its so hard sometimes tomdecidemifmImwant to work on a game. Its like "should I make games with my free time or play them?"

Do both, I have had a few weeks of breather time with my game and soon need to get back to work, but doing too much in one go will drive you insane especially when working at home, there is no office space or work pals around to keep you motivated.
 

Zajora

Member
why do all of your posts have such short lines, you know you don't have to hit enter, right?

I think he's intentionally linebreaking at 80 characters. (Or has software doing it?)

I don't really get it either. In 2013 it seems like it's more of a hindrance to readability than anything else.
 

bumpkin

Member
Thanks. :)

I think the way in which 3D graphics is "easier" has more to do with the flexibility it provides. It's easy to change the appearance of the characters, what they're holding, wearing, whatever, since it's all real time. 2D art has its own appeal but is difficult to have the same freedom and flexibility with.

I don't know that it's particularly hard to make a 2D game. Wayforward is a relatively small development studio and they make really top notch 2D games. I think the reluctance for most studios to go 2D is because making a 2D game imposes some limitations and developers find this unappealing.
Still, like he said, it's pretty damn impressive given it's just you. Do you have a bunch of prior experience doing pixel art? Just lots of practice?

...and if it's either, any tips or tricks? I know there's a bunch of tutorials online, just curious about some anecdotal advice from an actual person. When I was younger I used to draw a lot, and I've been thinking about purchasing one of those Light Boxes for sketching and trying my hand at making my own art for a game.
 

cbox

Member
Jobbs, your game is looking incredible so far, nice work!

-

I'm not hooked on 3d modelling and texturing and I can't wait to keep going, it's really fun!

Some progress on the ship from my game :)

m6IdRHv.png
 

Jobbs

Banned
Still, like he said, it's pretty damn impressive given it's just you. Do you have a bunch of prior experience doing pixel art? Just lots of practice?

...and if it's either, any tips or tricks? I know there's a bunch of tutorials online, just curious about some anecdotal advice from an actual person. When I was younger I used to draw a lot, and I've been thinking about purchasing one of those Light Boxes for sketching and trying my hand at making my own art for a game.

I used to draw comics, as I think I've mentioned before. I was very interested in trying to get somewhere with it, but nothing ever really caught on big. Around when Terraria came out is when it occured to me that game development might be an interesting area to get into -- I was impressed by what a couple dudes managed to make on their own. I didn't have any real animation experience at that point, so I just sorta wung it. I studied game sprites from existing games, try to figure out what the key positions are for different types of animations. I have no traditional training or experience with animation, so I've sort of developed my own processes for doing things that some may find odd, but seems to work.

I don't use a lightbox or paper or a pen at all. I do everything on my wacom intuos 3 tablet, using photoshop and its brushes to draw the animations frame by frame. Photoshop has an animation window, and I use that to set up my animations.

There are two different ways I approach animating something. One is to try and go with a more traditional process, where I sketch out basic rough figures, frame by frame, get the overall shape and motion right, then add detail and keep adding things until it's a finished animation.

The other method involves drawing a character, and slicing them up into a bunch of pieces, then manipulating those pieces into different poses, frame by frame, until the motion is right, after which point I'll go over it with the paint brush and retouch it, paint over it frame by frame to make it look better and hide the seams and so forth and make it all look organic and believable. This method works well if you want to have a more painterly, detailed look to your character, it's easier to keep that intact. It also tends to be a bit *easier* in general, at least for some types of things. This is what I typically do in Ghost Song.

All that being said, a very real feeling of not knowing what I'm doing and general inadequacy looms over me at all times, and I often only accomplish things through will and determination and tinkering rather than anything else.
 

bumpkin

Member
I used to draw comics, as I think I've mentioned before. I was very interested in trying to get somewhere with it, but nothing ever really caught on big. Around when Terraria came out is when it occured to me that game development might be an interesting area to get into -- I was impressed by what a couple dudes managed to make on their own. I didn't have any real animation experience at that point, so I just sorta wung it. I studied game sprites from existing games, try to figure out what the key positions are for different types of animations. I have no traditional training or experience with animation, so I've sort of developed my own processes for doing things that some may find odd, but seems to work.

I don't use a lightbox or paper or a pen at all. I do everything on my wacom intuos 3 tablet, using photoshop and its brushes to draw the animations frame by frame. Photoshop has an animation window, and I use that to set up my animations.

There are two different ways I approach animating something. One is to try and go with a more traditional process, where I sketch out basic rough figures, frame by frame, get the overall shape and motion right, then add detail and keep adding things until it's a finished animation.

The other method involves drawing a character, and slicing them up into a bunch of pieces, then manipulating those pieces into different poses, frame by frame, until the motion is right, after which point I'll go over it with the paint brush and retouch it, paint over it frame by frame to make it look better and hide the seams and so forth and make it all look organic and believable. This method works well if you want to have a more painterly, detailed look to your character, it's easier to keep that intact. It also tends to be a bit *easier* in general, at least for some types of things. This is what I typically do in Ghost Song.

All that being said, a very real feeling of not knowing what I'm doing and general inadequacy looms over me at all times, and I often only accomplish things through will and determination and tinkering rather than anything else.
Oh cool! Thanks for the insight and the descriptions of some approaches you've used. I've thought about going the tablet route, but I tried one way back when and it just never clicked; I couldn't get a handle on looking at a screen while "drawing" on the tablet. I'm sure I could probably get it with practice, the traditional route just seems like a better way for me to experiment. I know it adds work with having to ink lines and do clean-up after scanning them, it just seems like a better entry point. It's been many years -- probably 15+ -- since I was drawing regularly. I gotta brush up first.
 

Blizzard

Banned
I think he's intentionally linebreaking at 80 characters. (Or has software doing it?)

I don't really get it either. In 2013 it seems like it's more of a hindrance to readability than anything else.
It is indeed a hindrance to readability, especially to people on smartphones or with browser windows of different sizes. If I recall correctly when I asked, it's out of habit and personal belief because they like using Unix-esque text-formatting system (Tex or Vim?)...but it's also weird to me because I feel like I've checked the lines before and they don't always word-break at 80 characters. So maybe they are hand-edited too.

Missile, I am not sure if you care about anyone else who might wish to read one of your posts, but if you do, I respectfully ask that you please reconsider posting with just paragraph breaks at some point. Think of it as an adventure, trying something new. :)
 

CzarTim

Member
Hey guys, if I were interested in making a turn based strategy game, which dev tools would be easiest to get into? I have limited programing experience, but I'm willing to learn. Most of the game dev software seem to be focused on action-heavy games.
 

Vark

Member
So I'm trying to get something together for Fantastic Arcade here in Austin (Deadline is the 31st if anyone else is interested).

http://fantasticfest.com/news/entry/submissions-for-fantastic-arcade-2013-are-now-open

Right now I'm making some of my art not suck, working on boats. (Work in Progress Wednesday?)

It's weird, I've been working on this game forever but I'm not really comfortable talking about it until it looks a little presentable. I really need to get over that.

Anyway, I've got a few basic outlines I'm happy with so I went back into Photoshop to figure out how I want to go about shading. Now I'm back in illustrator to add the shading to the outline.

Some really awesome stuff in this thread.

wipwednesday.png
 

Servbot24

Banned
Oh, cool, a fellow Austin-ite! Do you have any recommendations of how to get involved with the game dev community here? I'm fairly new to the city. :)
 

Vark

Member
Oh, cool, a fellow Austin-ite! Do you have any recommendations of how to get involved with the game dev community here? I'm fairly new to the city. :)

Absolute. Jeugos Rancheros is a great start on the indie side,

http://juegosrancheros.com/

They meet at ND501 the first Thursday of every month.

Outside of that it all depends on what you do / where you're at professionally. The industry here has taken a lot of hits but the community is still pretty strong. Go ahead and PM me and I can point you in whatever direction you need.
 

Feep

Banned
Hey guys, if I were interested in making a turn based strategy game, which dev tools would be easiest to get into? I have limited programing experience, but I'm willing to learn. Most of the game dev software seem to be focused on action-heavy games.
I would think Construct, actually, but I'm not too well versed in it. Anyone else with a recommendation?
 

Feep

Banned
Welp. This is the last problem I've been having with lighting in There Came an Echo, so time to bribe people and see if anyone can solve it.

The following shader is what I use to make geometry "invisible", but still take light and shadows. It works, but only partially: colored light sources still appear as white on the surface, and they don't vary according to intensity of the light (unless the intensity is 0).

If anyone can solve this problem and have the shader correctly respond to colored lights, I will give them a free copy of There Came an Echo *and* the official soundtrack when the game is released in 2014. For srs.

Also I will love you forever. And if there are any lurkers out there, you can send me an E-mail at iridium@playiridium.com.

Here's the Unity shader code:

Code:
Shader "Custom/Matte Shadow" {
     
    Properties {
        _Color ("Main Color", Color) = (1,1,1,1)
        _MainTex ("Base (RGB) Trans (A)", 2D) = "white" {}
        _Cutoff ("Alpha cutoff", Range(0,1)) = 0.5
    }
     
    SubShader {
        Tags {"Queue"="AlphaTest" "RenderType"="TransparentCutout"}
        LOD 200
        Blend Zero SrcColor
		Offset 0, -1
     
    CGPROGRAM
     
    #pragma surface surf ShadowOnly alphatest:_Cutoff fullforwardshadows
          
    fixed4 _Color;
     
    struct Input {
        float2 uv_MainTex;
    };
     
    inline fixed4 LightingShadowOnly (SurfaceOutput s, fixed3 lightDir, fixed atten) {
        fixed4 c;
		
        c.rgb = s.Albedo*atten;
        c.a = s.Alpha;
        return c;
    }
     
    void surf (Input IN, inout SurfaceOutput o) {
        fixed4 c = _Color;
	o.Albedo = c.rgb;
        o.Alpha = 1.0f;
    }
    ENDCG
    }
    Fallback "Transparent/Cutout/VertexLit"
}
 
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