Monocle
Member
Very well stated.
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Inmate seeks execution by firing squad, says lethal injection too painful
- Thread starter fluffydelusions
- Start date
I don't agree. Call it blood lust or revenge fantasy or whatever but how about if they want to live they don't murder people. The victims don't get second chances.
As far as OP goes I think it's scummy to deny him his wishes though. End result will still be the same.
Certainly, there are people who deserve the death penalty.
The problem is there's no way to ensure the system only applies the death penalty to the people who "deserve" it. It's a judgment call. What happens when our judgement is wrong and it's applied to someone who can be rehabilitated? What happens when it's applied to people who are innocent? Both of these things happen. We deprive innocent people of life.
farmerboy
Member
Firstly the contention is that we are defending values and ideals of the wider community, not defending an imminent physical threat.
Secondly, I believe the onus is on you not to kill a person. The onus is not on me to rehabilitate you once you commit the crime.
Indeed. add that to the pile of great arguments against the death penalty.
The ones used for euthanasia though would be closer. But the secret is that lethal injection isn't meant to be reliable, it is meant to look pretty. It is probably more humane to shoot him but that goes badly with public reception.
So the values are worth enough to kill someone over them, but not worthy enough to rehabilitate someone over them?
D
Deleted member 1235
Unconfirmed Member
i would much prefer to go this way. id want some kind of giant gun to ensure my whole brain was just totally smashed into tiny bits instant like.
why not a giant head smashing machine? must work well
farmerboy
Member
And I suppose that is the crux of it really. Once the wider community sees it the same way then maybe capital punishment will cease.
LeroyPantwether
Member
Better points than what ? I presented hypotheticals to try to expand the conversation beyond "the death penalty sucks amirite or what guys " I obviously know that creating a perfect court system is unlikely, just as I know establishing a truly rehabilitative prison system in the US is also unlikely ( for the exact reasons you mentioned -propensity for bloodlust or whatever) That said , I wanted to know if anyone who was against the death penalty would be in favor of it if we could be sure we always got it right. I asked this question and others because i wanted to understand how people reached their conclusion on the matter . I used hypothetical scenarios as a means of trying to gain that understanding so excuse me . Lastly , I have given you nothing with which to draw a conclusion regarding my opinion on the matter. Thus, I find your attempt to posit what my stance is to be kind of lazy/rude (you're better than that ). For what it's worth I am against the death penalty because of its ability to impact the lives of ill and innocent people . That said , in the hypothetical science fiction world i presented i would be for the death penalty .
Yep. State-sponsored killing is mental to me.
But since America seems to want to keep two feet planted in the 1800s at all times, I agree on the guillotine being the way to go.
Honestly it would be easier if you had just asked if someone believed it for moral reasons or for practical reasons.
Personally in an hypothetical world where there is hard proof that the death penalty is a net bonus for society I would see no reason not to have it, don't really believe such a world could exist even if the court and enforcement systems were perfect, but if it did, sure why not, then again don't really believe in passing laws on moral grounds, morals being like assholes and all that.
These are real issues, impacting real people. Let's pretend I said in the science fiction world you imagined that I would be OK with the death penalty. What did you learn here? You may have indeed learned something about me personally, that there is some spectrum that exists for which the death penalty can be considered appropriate.
But what did you actually learn? Such a world cannot exist by definition. So it does not really push the ball any further on whether our positions have meaningful foundations, nor whether such systems have any avenues for which we could say the death penalty should exist.
We still end up in a world where the death penalty should not exist.
I'm not sure why you would consider me guessing at your stance "rude", because this is a conversation about the appropriateness of the death penalty. When people start to ask such ineffectual questions for which the only purpose seems to be entering intellectual purgatory, I am naturally going to wonder about the motivation.
So given your statement here, did your hypotheticals do what you wished?
1. "Expand the conversation beyond "the death penalty sucks"
2. "I wanted to understand how people reached their conclusion on the matter"
If this was your intention, was it easier than just asking "How did you reach your conclusion on being against the death penalty?" Because I could have provided links to studies, surveys, statistics that demonstrated precisely why I conclude what I do. And that would have cut to the chase.
I don't mean to be a bit cynical here, but instead your hypotheticals just made me quite skeptical as to the point behind your questioning. There were, after all, much more direct ways of getting what you supposedly wanted.
farmerboy
Member
Thats a really good question. And I'm not sure I have the answer.
Could you accept your father's murderer if he had rehabilitated? Could you sit down and have a coffee with him? Give him a job? Be a reference for him?
Would his rehabilitation be a worthy consequence of your fathers murder?
dragonelite
Member
You have all the time in prison to read books or Wikipedia.
Hell no, depending on how much time it had passed I would probably want him to be hanged, drawn and quartered, but that in itself is why it isn't the victims that decide the guilt or punishment of the perpetrator.
It would however be the best course of action for society as a whole (rehabilitation, not the punishment), since the crime had already been done, the person would have learned from it, and became a productive member of society again, instead of a drain on its resources.
zeioIIDX
Member
I just can't get on board with that. I'm all for rehabilitation for basically every other crime but murder. Nothing they could possibly do would make up for robbing someone of every possible future experience they would ever have.
farmerboy
Member
So you wouldn't be happy but you expect society (which is you x 300000000) to be happy? Or rather, how can society the structure be happy when the building block of that structure (the individual) is not?
Also, what of the people that do not want rehabilitation? Or who reoffend upon release?
They're prisoners. They don't get that choice.
Rehabilitative prison systems have significantly lower recidivism rates so what about them?
farmerboy
Member
Wait, so you can forcibly rehabilitate?
And your 2nd point may well be true, but i asked what of the prisoner who DOES reoffend? Do we just rehabilitate him a little more?
electricshake
Member
If a condition of release is rehabilitation, and you are never rehabilitated, you don't get released.
Would you tie down a home invader, then execute him?
Pauvre, pauvre, pussy cat*
LeroyPantwether
Member
I felt that framing my question as a disjunction (as you suggested) would have illogically limited the responses . What about people oppose the DP for moral and practical reasons ? What about people who oppose it for neither moral nor practical reasons . Moreover , it's not clear to me how that line of questioning would have been easier or more fruitful. Furthermore, it's not really clear to me what was so difficult about the way I approached the topic .
People got too excited over their new toy so they took it away. See: French Revolution.
Sarcastic Poster
Member
I would prefer firing squad too. Way too many botched lethal injections done with dodgy cocktails of drugs that are either expired or bought on the black market.
Vault Dweller 111
Member
Death penalty seems crazy, being caged like a rat for life seems worse. There's not a great solution, it sucks that people do detestable things.
The prison system in general needs a major reform. But you'll never get the public to care about the 'scum' of the human race. I don't see how any serious reform would ever get done.
The prison system in general needs a major reform. But you'll never get the public to care about the 'scum' of the human race. I don't see how any serious reform would ever get done.
So when you asked the hypothetical of my father murder you assumed my father had 300 million and 1 offsprings? I'm glad to say that to the best of my knowledge my father wasn't that prolific.
An individual of society can be unhappy about a decision, while said decision still providing a net benefit to the society, if one assumes that to not be the case, then we would also be unable to execute capital punishment, after all the family and friends of people that get executed are generally probably not happy about it either.
As for people not wanting rehabilitation, the question isn't if they want to or not, is if they can or cannot be rehabilitated, since rehabilitation when you are in jail isn't all that voluntary, if it helps think of rehabilitation as reprogramming.
Recidivism should be considered a failure of the rehabilitation of that specific person, and of the decision to release said person into society, either way recidivism rates are much much lower in countries with proper rehabilitation programs, to absolutely staggering degrees, Norway a country where this https://i.guim.co.uk/img/static/sys...10.jpg?w=620&q=55&auto=format&usm=12&fit=max& is a prisoner in a prison has a recidivism rate of 20%, the US which treats its prison system as punishment has a recidivism rate of 76,6% (numbers from an article in 2014), not to mention the crazy disparity of people in jail to the population of the country.
Not that this matters much, since for rehabilitation isn't really for the cases of death penalty, since even if the US was to abolish the death penalty those people would just get life sentences, at which point rehabilitation in those individuals is of somewhat limited value to society.
If you are interested in learning more about how Norway does rehabilitation you might want to check this article https://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/feb/25/norwegian-prison-inmates-treated-like-people
You are assuming that all murder is the same, which it sure isn't, it is even given different statues under the law, and vastly different punishments that can go from a few years in prison to the death penalty.
Second rehabilitation isn't about undoing the past, plenty of crimes can't undo the damage that was done, it is about doing the best of a bad situation.
As soon as you have one innocent person die (which has happened multiple times) the concept of the death penalty doesn't work, it's just murder
not psycho
Member
One of the primary tortures of being killed is the sheer terror. It's not just about physical pain.
I would prefer firing squad > lethal injection >>> guillotine even though the physical pain may be greater. But the knowledge that my head is certainly about to be cut off, and I have no freedom of motion to even imagine I can stop it, outweighs pain considerations for me.
Besides, terror isn't always logical. If we're trying to lessen the torture involved in killing people they need to given a range of choices, so they can avoid things which hold a special terror for them.
I would prefer firing squad > lethal injection >>> guillotine even though the physical pain may be greater. But the knowledge that my head is certainly about to be cut off, and I have no freedom of motion to even imagine I can stop it, outweighs pain considerations for me.
Besides, terror isn't always logical. If we're trying to lessen the torture involved in killing people they need to given a range of choices, so they can avoid things which hold a special terror for them.
RiccochetJ
Gold Member
You don't think there were botches when it comes to firing squads?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wallace_Wilkerson
Apparently this is one of the big reasons why the US doesn't use firing squads.
I'd rather someone walk up to me and point blank shoot me in the head multiple times.
I don't care what differences there are or the various sentences. Soon as you intentionally rob someone of their life you should forfeit yours.
It's not a "bad situation". It's an asshole murdering one or more people. Why should trying rehabilitating them, whatever that even means in this case, be a concern?
Jack The Nipper
Banned
But usually when many people see what people have done they are wishing death on people.
I don't necessarily agree with killing people in these cases but I also don't feel death is bad. If we are left with no conscious thought or feeling at all, then it's definitely not bad and likely better than a hard life imo
Each person has thier thought to these ideas like the above idea of saying one should be killed if they have took a life but this is under the pretense that losing life is bad and honestly there is no proof that it is bad as no one is dead to give us the info on how it's bad.
Obviously, the key is people are alive right now and care about what they have, do and what they will do . But. We still don't know how we are at death but if having no conscious thinking to what I'm missing, I just can't see how death would actually be bad.
If hell or heaven was real then we have a whole new game but I don't believe in either.
The only possibility and confusing part of all of this to me that I may never have a point blank answer to from anyone
If life is meaningless as this earth and world can go on without peoole or animals fairly easily..
In what way or why just why does life itself have a natural fear of death and drive for sex and carrying on life. While I pertain thoughts as to why it's ok to die in some logical idea that also isn't proven true atleast. this is the one thing that I just can't grasp on any logical form and seems like great ammo for religious debates
And for my idea that death is ok, it would have to be proven that we have an unconscious, no thought or life upon death. Which, this isn't proven so I can't say I completly agree that death is ok or not either. So, I'm stuck in the very idea if I believe in the death penalty or not.... And in my mind this is the only 100 percent true answer that very few people have. You can believe in one way or another but without true facts of life your just pouring out feelings and ideas that don't hold the truest of weight in my mind.
I basically just said there is no way for me or anyone to know what is right or wrong in an accurate non opinionated state, I know.
Won't really touch the first part because hard to have an argument when one is saying they don't care about facts, will just say you should look at murder rates by race to see that there is a lot more to murder than "murder is murder kill them all".
As for the question, its pretty simple after the act of murder was committed and the perpetrator guilt verified there are very few options, these are the most obvious ones:
1) Kill the perpetrator, losing a second life in the process, and doing something which on average for the state of California has cost 308 million $ per execution.
2) Put the perpetrator in jail for life, where he will do nothing but be a drain on the resources of society, this is many many times cheaper than killing them, so you could then for example use that money to give people better health care in the process saving many many lives.
3) You put the perpetrator in jail until he is rehabilitated, if he gets rehabilitated he goes out into society and stops feeding on the resources of the society and starts producing not only saving money but also putting more resources into the system, which once again can be used to save even more lives, if he does not get rehabilitated he keeps being a drain on the resources, but it is still cheaper than killing him.
I would say the reason why rehabilitation should be a concern is obvious.
michaelius
Banned
You get 100% certainty that they won't hurt anyone innocent once they leave prison.
I could consider it cruel easily. Consider killing someone is always cruel.
pigeon interrupted
Member
I think if the state is okay with killing as retribution it okays a certain line of thinking within society which is not healthy in the long run. People's primal cry for an eye for an eye is satiated. Norway and similar places have proven the worth of rehabilitation. The smart thing doesn't always feel like the most satisfying thing.
Most people on death row probably don't want to die. Even if they say they do, survival instinct is so ingrained having to fight it is one of the worst feeling ever. I imagine you must feel like a cat in a bag as you're led to the execution chamber.
I would choose death by shotgun - the logical conclusion of the firing squad. Obliterate the brain. Or nuke me from orbit. It's the only way to be sure. I've bodged a few suicide attempts (obviously, since I'm posting, lol), tried a few methods (hanging, slash wrists a few times, drug overdoses, head trauma) and had near death experiences. It's all painful in it's own way. I've even had to be resuscitated from drowning as a child. Waiting to die and gazing into the emptiness of oblivion is terrifying. Those moments waiting to die = torture, imo.
Most people on death row probably don't want to die. Even if they say they do, survival instinct is so ingrained having to fight it is one of the worst feeling ever. I imagine you must feel like a cat in a bag as you're led to the execution chamber.
I would choose death by shotgun - the logical conclusion of the firing squad. Obliterate the brain. Or nuke me from orbit. It's the only way to be sure. I've bodged a few suicide attempts (obviously, since I'm posting, lol), tried a few methods (hanging, slash wrists a few times, drug overdoses, head trauma) and had near death experiences. It's all painful in it's own way. I've even had to be resuscitated from drowning as a child. Waiting to die and gazing into the emptiness of oblivion is terrifying. Those moments waiting to die = torture, imo.
But All people on death row would never leave prison. They would get life without parole
Fudgepuppy
Banned
Excluding the statistics and logical reasons to abolish the death penalty (lack of deterrance, cost, biased judicial processing, recidivism positively affected by having more humane prisons etc.) I always think about this scene from The Ides Of March:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJe61d2avbc
Because in the end, society should be better than the individual. Society shouldn't be built on individuals feelings and bias.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJe61d2avbc
Because in the end, society should be better than the individual. Society shouldn't be built on individuals feelings and bias.
@bold:???. The different sentences that exist do not change my opinion on how I feel about the crime. I wasn't arguing that they were incorrect or whatever.
You supporting murderers rejoining society is so far away from where I'm at that we'll never even come close to agreeing. I'm totally fine with that small percentage of inmates being a drain on society if at least they are stuck behind bars.
What does it even mean for a killer to be rehabilitated? I see that thrown around all the time. The victim(s) is still dead. What changes and what guarantees are there that they won't kill again?
Sorry not going to tow the line here GAF. I agree with this.
Yup, fuck him
To get into that discussion one would need to get into the differences between murderers, which you seem to be unwilling to get into, so I will just give an example, lets say that someone that has a kid and that kid was molested by a someone, due to corruption/lack of evidence that person is not condemned, and then the father goes and kills the child molester, in your view this person did this "Soon as you intentionally rob someone of their life you should forfeit yours.".
This person would undoubtedly be a murderer, But can you honestly not see how this person could be rehabilitated and become once again a productive member of society?
Not all murderers are Gilles de Rais.
Also really once again look at the murder rates per race, and you will see a vast difference between murders committed by minorities and murders committed by white people in the USA, one can either assume that this happened because white people are somehow genetically less predisposed to murder, or one can assume that there is a ton of social and cultural factors that lead to such a difference, which by extension does diminish (but not exclude) the individual role of an individual in the act of committing a murder, and if society can have such a tremendous impact on whether someone with a certain background ends more predisposed to killing or not killing another human being, one must also assume that said society can also impact those individuals in the other direction.
As for absolute guarantees they don't exist ever, much like you can't guarantee a drunk driver won't drive drunk again, or any number of other crimes, doesn't mean rehabilitation and reintegration should be excluded, you just simply take it on a case by case basis, and take the good with the bad, and the evidence we have of countries that have less primitive systems of incarceration point that the good far outweighs the bad.
John Kowalski
Banned
Yes.
ultratruman
Banned
A while ago someone made a thread here about ' why don't we use death row inmates for drug experiments instead?'. The thread was a shitshow, but the point was made that US death row inmates are effectively already being experimented on: states are turning to dubious sources for lethal injection chemicals, which have increased the prevalence of 'botched' executions.
It's nightmarish.
Least100Seraphs
Neo Member
In 1985, Frank Lee Smith was convicted by a Florida court, for the rape and murder of an 8-year-old girl.
In 1990, Frank Lee Smith was given a stay of execution.
In January of 2000, Frank Lee Smith died of cancer while still on death row.
Later that year, DNA evidence conclusively showed him to be innocent of all charges.
That's one of over 150 stories of people in the USA since 1973 that have been convicted and sentenced to death that have subsequently been exonerated.
Many of these people received stays of execution, and would have been murdered by the government. Some of them fought for more than 15 years before being found innocent.
If you think that it's OK to kill someone that might be innocent, you're OK with murder.
If you don't think it's OK to kill someone that might be innocent, then you cannot be OK with the death penalty until such a point in time where it's possible to be 100% certain that you have the right person.
If you think that humans need to play a part in the justice process, then you must accept that there will never be such a point in time where it's possible to be 100% certain that you have the right person.
In 1990, Frank Lee Smith was given a stay of execution.
In January of 2000, Frank Lee Smith died of cancer while still on death row.
Later that year, DNA evidence conclusively showed him to be innocent of all charges.
That's one of over 150 stories of people in the USA since 1973 that have been convicted and sentenced to death that have subsequently been exonerated.
Many of these people received stays of execution, and would have been murdered by the government. Some of them fought for more than 15 years before being found innocent.
If you think that it's OK to kill someone that might be innocent, you're OK with murder.
If you don't think it's OK to kill someone that might be innocent, then you cannot be OK with the death penalty until such a point in time where it's possible to be 100% certain that you have the right person.
If you think that humans need to play a part in the justice process, then you must accept that there will never be such a point in time where it's possible to be 100% certain that you have the right person.
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