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Interface Battle: DotA 2 Custom Games vs Starcraft 2 Arcade vs Bnet 1.0

ScOULaris

Member
So Valve flipped the switch the other day to make DotA 2 Reborn the new official client, thus introducing the wild world of Custom Games to the rest of the enormous DotA 2 playerbase that never hopped on the beta bandwagon. For fans of the olden days of Brood War and Warcraft 3 custom maps, this should be great news. After all, this initiative is being spearheaded and developed by a team that has a deep understanding of the importance of supporting this custom maps scene. DotA was birthed from it!

Valve is somewhat receptive to criticism in their own secretive, draconian way. People complain a lot, and despite Valve's silence they more often than not end up implementing fixes and features based on suggestions from the players. That in mind, I thought it'd be fruitful for us to discuss the interface design powering custom game discovery in DotA 2 as compared to similar services. While this is something that we once took for granted, we need only be reminded of Blizzard's mishandling of the SC2 Arcade upon launch and to see how much interface design can impact the scene in its early days.

To start off, let's look at the landing pages for custom games:

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From left to right: DotA 2 Custom Games frontpage, SC2 Arcade frontpage, Brood War (Bnet 1.0) frontpage.

So here we have two modern examples of custom games interface design next to the old standard, Battle.net 1.0. One major criticism that the SC2 Arcade faced from day one was how it minimized the communal aspects of Bnet 1.0. Notice how you're dumped right into a giant chat room from the start in Brood War. From there, you can easily create other custom chat rooms, create a new game session, or start browsing the list of lobbies. It was a dead-simple interface, but it worked and was great for fostering a sense of online community.

Looking at DotA 2 and the SC2 Arcade, however, it's clear that they're taking a more popularity-driven approach to game discovery. The first thing that players see when hopping in is a list of the most popular maps in both games. On one hand, this is a good thing. It allows players to cut out the fat and get right to games that are vouched for as being fun and worthwhile. On the other, it sets up a "rich get richer" effect where failing to crack that Top 10 showcase means your map might not ever gain traction. It's a similar problem facing games and apps on digital storefronts like the iOS App Store, Google Play... etc. This is the modern approach to user-generated content discovery, for better or worse.

Comparing the two, they each do some things better than the other IMO. DotA 2's Suggested Games section at the bottom cycles through a set of 15 maps (not based on popularity) that are the same for everyone playing at any given time. In theory, this is good for giving less popular maps a chance to be played, but one downside of this approach is that it often suggest broken or incomplete maps, souring the experience for people taking a chance on potentially overlooked games.

SC2's Arcade offers a helpful Browse section alongside its popularity-driven frontpage, and it allows players to filter by genre and other variables when looking for new maps to play. There is also an Open Games lobby list of sorts, but the problem is that very few people ever use it. This results in people having a very hard time getting games to fill up without inviting friends or playing the most popular maps. It's a problem that essentially killed all motivation for mapmakers who felt that all of their hard work would go unplayed. All problems aside, it's still a very slick interface, and the ability to browse by genre is something that the Arcade has over DotA 2's interface at the moment.

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From left to right: DotA 2 Custom Game listing, SC2 Arcade custom game listing.

Next let's look at examples of Custom Game pages for both DotA 2 and the SC2 Arcade, respectively. This is a case where the Arcade is clearly a more mature platform with years of iteration and polish behind it, while the DotA 2 custom games interface is just exiting beta. The SC2 Arcade page is nicely represented with clear buttons for play instructions, patch notes, and reviews. It's all very intuitive and I think it works quite well in terms of showcasing a map before you hop into it.

DotA 2's page is a little more barebones and essentially reflects the game's listing on the Steam workshop page. You can see a star review score at the top, but there are no real written reviews anywhere. At best you can click the Steam Workshop page button and sift through the garbage heap of a comment section to try and find constructive criticism. Otherwise niceties like joining a chat room for that specific game and quickly installing the game and hopping right into an open lobby are both there. Joining games is simple and easy from this page, which I think is good design. You can also easily choose different map variations from a dropdown in cases where games have multiple variants.

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From left to right: DotA 2 lobby list, SC2 Arcade open games list, Brood War lobby list.

Last but certainly not least, we have the lobby lists. This, in my opinion, represents the biggest difference between the old approach to game discovery and the new one. While the screenshot I found for Open Games in the SC2 Arcade is old, it still communicates the main problem with it: there's hardly anyone ever looking at this list. Most people are drawn to that initial "most played" list on the frontpage, and that's the extent of their custom map discovery. DotA 2 gives the player access to a full, traditional lobby list complete with filters, search, and sorting by fields, but it's hidden behind a link on the frontpage. How often people use this link is not know to me at the moment.

The beauty of Brood War's simple lobby list was that it continuously updated without intervention from the player, and it listed every lobby by recency and the user-created lobby name. It's a small, subtle thing, but I think that showing lobbies by lobby name -- rather than having the same map name represented all the way down the list with nothing to differentiate one lobby from another -- made for a much better map discovery experience. Simply put: it encouraged experimentation and exploration. Mapmakers could start a lobby with their new map and quickly have the lobby filled within seconds and start playing. There was no popularity system guiding discovery, so everyone was on equal footing. If games were good and became popular, the only consequence was seeing them show up on the lobby list more often. This allowed popular maps to shine while not taking away all of the attention from up-and-coming maps or old favorites. It worked beautifully, if almost by accident.

I think that Valve is on the right track with their lobby list, and hopefully with a few tweaks they can brings its functionality closer to what we had with Bnet 1.0.
 

Lotto

Member
so far the experience for hopping into and discovering interesting and new custom games for dota 2 has been pretty smooth. it's a definite improvement over what i experienced when i was playing starcraft 2 and i do see a brighter future for dota 2's custom game scene. it seems a lot of modders are enthusiastic about how valve's been approaching it as well, i think it's just a matter of time before we start actually getting some really good ones though. i don't expect to see genre's being birthed from it, but i do see a healthier scene emerging from it.
 

crazyprac

Member
All I want to know is if tower defense has been remade and mostly bug free? If so I'm about to stock up on resources and bunker down!
 

ScOULaris

Member
All I want to know is if tower defense has been remade and mostly bug free? If so I'm about to stock up on resources and bunker down!
There are quite a few tower defense maps, although admittedly many of them are still unfinished or lack polish. But there are a handful that are already quite playable and fun. I just played Slot TD this morning, and it definitely has potential.
 

crazyprac

Member
There are quite a few tower defense maps, although admittedly many of them are still unfinished or lack polish. But there are a handful that are already quite playable and fun. I just played Slot TD this morning, and it definitely has potential.

Im going to wait a bit then but thanks for the feedback.
 

lazygecko

Member
I really, really dislike the new Battle.net service overall. Not so much interface qualms as sheer functionality though. The fact that they made Blizzard game clients essentially region locked and prevent you from playing with friends in different regions was a huge dealbreaker for me, and I ended up boycotting Starcraft 2 because of it. Such a ridiculous regression from being able to do this without any hassles with online technology from 1998.
 

ScOULaris

Member
I should also note that I have only briefly poked around the SC2 Arcade since it became free. Most of my impressions come from watching videos and listening to feedback from people who have been using it over the years.
 

Razzer

Member
I haven't been involved in a custom game scene before this so I can't really compare to other attempts, but it seems that the focus here is all about visibility, or reducing the amount of effort that needs to be made for a player to try an unknown game. But another aspect that could be considered is incentives. What incentive to players have to play the games that are less popular. The incentives for popular games is obvious, there will be more people playing so its easier to get into a lobby, and you will be more likely to have friends who play it. Its popularity will also serve as a kind of guarantee that it is probably a fun game. You will be far less confident of that quality in an unknown game, and the other incentives aren't there either. So someone needs to create an incentive, a reason for someone to say sure I'll give this a look.

One possible idea for this would be to give lesser known games a weekend with dedicated servers. Or a week where playing that game will give you cosmetics. Something that indicates, 'this is the game to try right now'. It could be Valve that chooses who gets this treatment, or they could get some select community members to do it. But I don't know shit about it so I'm sure others can come up with better ideas.
 
It is amazing that Battle.net 1.0 had a better interface for custom games and discovery than Starcraft 2 originally did like 40 years later.

Dota 2 is good and better than Starcraft 2 by a country mile, though its early.

Good thread.
 

ScOULaris

Member
One possible idea for this would be to give lesser known games a weekend with dedicated servers. Or a week where playing that game will give you cosmetics. Something that indicates, 'this is the game to try right now'. It could be Valve that chooses who gets this treatment, or they could get some select community members to do it. But I don't know shit about it so I'm sure others can come up with better ideas.

One thing that I do think Blizzard did right for the mapping community with SC2 were the Rock the Cabinet contests. They had legitimately worthwhile prize payouts to the best maps for each contest, which is always a good incentive to drive quality map creation. I wouldn't mind seeing Valve doing something similar for their custom games down the line.

I just want for a DBZ Tribute version for DOTA 2, it's been too long.

Oh I'm pretty sure there are DBZ maps like that in development right now. We'll probably see stuff with custom models, effects, terrain... etc. after devs have had more time with the tools.
 
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Deleted member 325805

Unconfirmed Member
All I want is 100% finished, and working Tower Defense.
 

ScOULaris

Member
All I want is 100% finished, and working Tower Defense.

Personally I want to see Tower Defense maps that use actual towers instead of heroes. That might happen eventually, but it all comes down to a lack of building/turret assets in the tools right now.
 
Oh I'm pretty sure there are DBZ maps like that in development right now. We'll probably see stuff with custom models, effects, terrain... etc. after devs have had more time with the tools.

I sure hope so. Those unbalanced WC3 anime maps were the absolute best. The DBZ Tribute ones always had a special place on my heart. I mean, spending at least 2 hours(if everyone didn't quit) playing through the sagas was so damn fun.

No Future Trunks pls.
 
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Deleted member 325805

Unconfirmed Member
Personally I want to see Tower Defense maps that use actual towers instead of heroes. That might happen eventually, but it all comes down to a lack of building/turret assets in the tools right now.

That would be great, for now towers that have working animations would be nice, but at some point I'd love to see some awesome looking, unique towers and I'm sure that's possible with all the talent who enjoy modding Dota 2.
 
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