Copyright violation is not the same thing as stealing.
Copyrights are unfortunate but necessarily (at least until we come up with a better solution) limitation we put on free speech in order to make sure that artists can make a living.
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Internet providers to start policing the web July 12
- Thread starter ClovingWestbrook
- Start date
- Status
Copyrights are unfortunate but necessarily (at least until we come up with a better solution) limitation we put on free speech in order to make sure that artists can make a living.
nVidiot_Whore
Banned
Great. And you infringe on the freedom of any copyright holder whose copyright you violate when you demand nothing is done to protect that freedom.
Good for you.
bengraven
Member
Here it comes...
I'm surprised you wrote all that and still forgot to use the word "entitled" somewhere in the text.
nVidiot_Whore
Banned
Now it's a limitation of "free speech" to not be able to download a movie/music/software/book w/o consent?
Honestly.. we now live in a bizarro world.
I quit. I no longer live in the same world as any of you.. I live in some other dimension.
Angry Fork
Member
Cable TV and movie companies are still behind. Hollywood doesn't want to get rid of the theater tradition and instead of allowing films to be released on netflix/digital at the same time as theaters they want to maximize profits because they're run by old men and get a lot more money through the initial run in theaters. I would still like movies to be in theaters but it shouldn't be the only way to see them for 6 months anymore. That is dying and if hollywood can't accept that that's their fault.
Cable TV is approaching death thankfully but they won't let it go completely. Companies still want their channels to do well through original (or non original) programming and refuse to allow it on websites. The Daily Show and Colbert Report can all be seen on their websites the day after it's aired on TV. If this was the same for all shows/channels nobody would care about pirating. Nobody wants to pay 40$ a month for 3-4 channels they watch (or even only 3-4 shows period). Hopefully Netflix is successful with Arrested Development and it inspires people to start creating high budget content without the shitty TV middle man.
It's all about evolving with the times and hollywood/TV companies are scared to try new things. And the new things don't make them as much money as they used to so now they're pissy and want to restrict the internet to get what they want.
CornBurrito
Member
The bolded is false.
nVidiot_Whore
Banned
Also, this article really should point out how the plan actually works. They link to the original article, but their article title is not very accurate.
http://rt.com/usa/news/internet-providers-connection-industry/
The ISP's aren't really "policing" anything.. this is about someone being able to report a CRIME and have ISPs actually do something about it.
And it's supported by all kinds of people, not just large corporations who own a lot of IP.
I'm talking about music.. it pretty much switched over.. people still pirate music en masse.
They want the law to actually be enforced.. they want ISPs to not continue to allow laws to be broken.
You can cry "restriction" all you want.. it's a restriction of illegal activity.
It's completely childish. "I'm not getting what I want, so I'm going to take it, and then complain when someone tries to stop me!"
These companies spend millions producing their content.. they CAN do whatever the flying fuck they want with it.. You can also cry about it all you want.
http://rt.com/usa/news/internet-providers-connection-industry/
The ISP's aren't really "policing" anything.. this is about someone being able to report a CRIME and have ISPs actually do something about it.
And it's supported by all kinds of people, not just large corporations who own a lot of IP.
I'm talking about music.. it pretty much switched over.. people still pirate music en masse.
They want the law to actually be enforced.. they want ISPs to not continue to allow laws to be broken.
You can cry "restriction" all you want.. it's a restriction of illegal activity.
It's completely childish. "I'm not getting what I want, so I'm going to take it, and then complain when someone tries to stop me!"
These companies spend millions producing their content.. they CAN do whatever the flying fuck they want with it.. You can also cry about it all you want.
dinazimmerman
Incurious Bastard
I'm as anti-anti-piracy as they get, but I prefer a six-strike warning system to a one-strike lawsuit system or to ISPs blocking reported websites to all of its clients, so this might not be so bad as a compromise.
Copyrights are a limitation of free speech, no two ways about it.
You can say it's a justified limitation, but there's no escaping the fact that more speech is allowed without them (and by the way, it's not a-priori true that every limitation on free speech is a bad thing, crowded theater, fire and all that jazz).
You're thinking about perfect digital copies, but copyrights laws are much broader, and that's exactly the problem with them (though it should be noted that even perfect digital copies are not the same thing as stealing, I'm not talking about what their legal status should be, just pointing out that there many important difference between the two).
I'm not defending downloading movies or music without paying for them, but I also try to understand the broad implication of our laws and action.
Then music has lost it's value and companies have to find a way to make it valuable again.
(think about the Music Unlimited or Zune pass kind of services, they work great and all they need is to make the services more accessible for the majority of the world's citizens)
Innovation is key.
The thing is if they do get the power to do this there is always room for abuse which no doubt will happen. The other argument of "If you don't download illegal stuff you have nothing to worry about" I agree with for the most part. They aren't going to target Youtube users if anything they will just jump on Youtube to enforce their site more.
This is a never ending argument though it's always the same.The big companies will get their way eventually it's unavoidable and in return will make using the internet a pile of shit. Youtube is a great example it's completely gone to ad filled garbage and rarely worth using anymore. On the other hand you have the people pirating alot of stuff using fronts to cover up and ignore what they are doing only making things worse.
The problem is the content providers as well and their lack of willingness to adapt to the times and the internet.We have had the online content argument on this forum many times people want access to this content without it costing an arm and a leg or having to go through cable providers because that comes with it's own set of fees hence people download.
I don't know you can see the argument for both sides and while I think cutting internet connection is extreme and there is much room for error and abuse I also know alot of professional people who have been effected by piracy and it's not cool.
It was funny when Skyrim came out I was on Final Fantasy XIV and as soon as it leaked the chat window was filling up with torrent links and what not it was nuts then like half hour later everyone was idle lol.
This is a never ending argument though it's always the same.The big companies will get their way eventually it's unavoidable and in return will make using the internet a pile of shit. Youtube is a great example it's completely gone to ad filled garbage and rarely worth using anymore. On the other hand you have the people pirating alot of stuff using fronts to cover up and ignore what they are doing only making things worse.
The problem is the content providers as well and their lack of willingness to adapt to the times and the internet.We have had the online content argument on this forum many times people want access to this content without it costing an arm and a leg or having to go through cable providers because that comes with it's own set of fees hence people download.
I don't know you can see the argument for both sides and while I think cutting internet connection is extreme and there is much room for error and abuse I also know alot of professional people who have been effected by piracy and it's not cool.
It was funny when Skyrim came out I was on Final Fantasy XIV and as soon as it leaked the chat window was filling up with torrent links and what not it was nuts then like half hour later everyone was idle lol.
CitizenCope
Member
That's really all I'm worried about. Should I be worried more?
I must say though when I get together with my friends they talk about downloading 6000 books for free or watching movies before they hit theaters. Guessing that's what they are after. Good?
nVidiot_Whore
Banned
It's only lost it's value because of how easy it is to break the law to obtain it, and because society doesn't condone illegally obtaining music. They pretty much condone anyone trying to stop them.. or people like me who will bother to tell them there is nothing wrong with an attempt to stop you from illegaly obtaining a product.
Luckily for fans of music? The actual creators of most music do it very cheaply.. and have other ways to make money.. performances, merchandise, etc. But they are still losing out as the value of any sort of record contract has plummeted greatly.
The problem is that attitude doesn't work for all types of content. Software and film don't have the same amount of side-industries.. and are much more costly to produce in the first place.
Angry Fork
Member
Well the 'market' is telling them they don't want to spend 40$ per month on a few shows anymore, or 20$ to see a shitty movie just because they're too greedy to offer it on digital services. Billion dollar companies love the free market until it doesn't work in their favor anymore.
If they put their shit online they would make money off it and piracy would drop significantly. This isn't crazy talk. Steam, Netflix, iTunes etc. it's fact.
Whoever will still pirate regardless of digital convenience will ALWAYS pirate, and they're in the minority. They will always find ways of bypassing ISP regulations and the only people that get hurt are actual consumers that don't want to be spied on 24/7 for something they didn't do and won't do.
You keep missing the point that they will not make what they used to make anymore. Artists, movie companies, musicians etc. nobody. (Although many amateur's can make more money now than they could have 20 years ago). There is nothing they can do to change that. Times change, technology changes and now they have to adapt.
Music companies in particular are still raging that they can't sell a 10 track album for 20$ anymore (and only give 1-2$ to the artist btw). People can do all their shit on their own, sell it for 5 bucks and keep everything.
nVidiot_Whore
Banned
It requires a copyright holder actually file a complaint.. provide the IP address of the offender.
It pretty much ONLY relates to torrents and other file-sharing methods where someone can get your IP address.
If you are a copyright holder, and find a torrent of your content? You simply have to download the torrent.. you will be provided a list of IP addresses for the people you are connecting with.
nVidiot_Whore
Banned
Only because an illegal market has surfaced.. and people are childishly justifying their illegal actions.
Right.. like with music.. man.. nobody pirates anymore! Not really.. revenue is a fraction what it used to be.. and it's largely because people are still stealing.
I think this is an entirely false statement. I'd say people who pay for their music these days are in the minority.. despite the fact we've had DRM free music services for many years now. It's doubtful anything different would happen for other forms of content. Look at PC gaming for instance.. Steam is awesome.. and it's been around forever.. yet PC game pirating is still RAMPANT. PC games sell a small fraction of what they do on consoles where it's much more difficult to pirate.
Except.. nobody is getting spied on in this case.. it takes you getting reported by a copyright holder.
ClosingADoor
Member
And then? How can they prove you where the one downloading there? That's always a problem with identifying people through IP addresses.
Sure, the ISP can punish the connection and ban it or something. But can a judge convict you to pay a fine solely because they traced your IP address?
Not that I'm promoting downloading stuff or anything. But the movie business is way behind the game when compared to games and music and they should take note if they want to save their income in the long term.
Then software and movies have to change their budgets to fit the current climate or think of something that makes the software/films look more valuable to people and worth the money.
You shouldn't give a shit about the industries because they only exist thanks to you, the consumer. They should start thinking about us instead and provide great service for our money.
Angry Fork
Member
Revenues are lower because everything is cheaper. They had to sell cheaper because nobody buys 20$ albums anymore.
If there was no Steam the PC industry would've crippled entirely. People still pirate PC games but it would be much much worse if there was no Steam. iTunes and netflix did the same. I guarantee you these services converted millions upon millions of people from former pirates to real consumers because they're cheap, convenient, and work well enough.
nVidiot_Whore
Banned
Your connection, your problem. You sign an agreement when you sign up for any ISP that says you won't do certain things.. that extends to anyone you allow to use your connection.
Sure, they have in the past. But the RIAA/MPAA have backed off on going after individuals using legal measures.
THIS measure has nothing to do with that.
And they have taken many steps to do so with various digital services.. it takes time..
And either way, nobody is making a lot of actual MONEY on any digital content other than the content stores themselves.. because get this...
... people don't consider digital content as valuable.. partly because they can easily obtain it for free, legally.
Moves like this can HELP us move towards actually having greater access to LEGIT digital content.
nVidiot_Whore
Banned
Also, law enforcement can help. Because it's illegal and childish to take things that you are expected to pay for.
See how that works?
I give a shit because industries that suffer from piracy tend to go to shit. See: PC gaming. I don't want that happening to the film or TV industries.. and it quit simply, could.
And I give a shit because I want people to make money.. want the economy to do well.. and because I work as a software developer.. have friends who work in other industries with copyrights, etc. I'm also not twelve.
But I'm also just commenting on the general childishness of the reaction. I also give a shit about THAT, because I feel like I'm currently living in a society that is in a bit of a downward spiral when it comes to taking responsibility for themselves, and not being a complete entitled douchebag. And it drives me NUTS. Have I pirated stuff? Certainly.. do I think i was "right"? NO.. not at all.. it was selfish.. it is selfish.. sometimes I'm selfish. But I'm not going to cry if my ISP sends me a warning.. I'll stop pirating.. something I do rarely anyways.
ChubbyHuggs
Member
No one reports porn.
We are the entitled doucebags for you while the entertainment industry seems like it's full of entitled douchebags to us.
Maybe not millions upon millions but still a big number. I have seen long time pirates buying PC games on Steam just because of the great service it provides.
nVidiot_Whore
Banned
Right.. hardly anyone pirates.. it has no affect on the industry.
They also didn't convert millions upon millions of people.
Afgani's build open source internet from trash
It's possible - with tech being more and more ubiquitous, there will eventually be a day when you won't need an ISP to connect to the net.
It's possible - with tech being more and more ubiquitous, there will eventually be a day when you won't need an ISP to connect to the net.
Not yet but soon I imagine once Bill C-11 goes through the flood gates will open.
ClosingADoor
Member
Hm ok. A bit strange I can get punished because a friend download something over here when he was visiting with his laptop.
Point me to these digital services? And then the ones I can actually use outside the United States. Because I know no services over here that allow me to pay a set amount every month and just stream tv series for instance. And that isn't months late with their content. I might be missing it (it took word of mouth to point me to Spotify and Steam at first), but I don't think it exists.
It takes time you say. It has taken ten years now. You'd say people pirating their content on these levels would be some motivation for movie studios to get their stuff in order and offer what the consumer wants. And that is not everything for free (of course there is a group that will never pay, but you can move large groups to legal content), but easy, fast and reasonably priced.
I also wonder how only the store owners are making money? They get the movies for free from the studios? Stores just take a cut on the sale as far as I know.
I'd say it takes away the motivation to change the industry and how they sell content.
So the thread title here is actually wrong? ISPs will not start policing traffic? They are just going to handle MPAA/RIAA notifications differently?
Except you aren't giving them any money?
And what is this vague "great service" nonsense? They aren't a waiter or an insurance company. You can instantly stream HD movies day-and-date with the DVD/BR release. You can watch HD TV shows the day after they air with limited commercial interruption. In terms of service I'm not really sure what more you could ask for. If you're still pirating content now then there's a chance you'll never stop....because the level of service really can't get much better.
Except you aren't giving them any money?
And what is this vague "great service" nonsense? They aren't a waiter or an insurance company. You can instantly stream HD movies day-and-date with the DVD/BR release. You can watch HD TV shows the day after they air with limited commercial interruption. In terms of service I'm not really sure what more you could ask for. If you're still pirating content now then there's a chance you'll never stop....because the level of service really can't get much better.
nVidiot_Whore
Banned
You let him use your connection.. it's your agreement with the ISP. It's not some legal punishment, it's a service provider enforcing an agreement you made with them for the service you pay for.
Netflix, Hulu, iTunes, Amazon... there are numerous digital services.
But no.. there is no ala carte pay monthly and stream everything new service.. I never said their was. There are numerous ways to acquire digital video content.
That's not what I meant. I'm speaking partly relative to other forms of distribution.. individual companies aren't making large amounts of money from downloaded content.. relative to their other means of distribution, especially historically.
EITHER WAY.. all of this ignores that IMO, it's entirely prudent to enforce copyright laws.. you do not have the "right" or "freedom" to violate copyrights or pirate material.. so none of this is an infringement on your rights.
It's law enforcement catching up with technology.. and it's being done in a way that doesn't actually involve LEGAL penalties to the law breakers.. seems like something people should be SUPPORTING FULLY, instead you get people crying about rights being violated. I find it disgusting.
DonasaurusRex
Online Ho Champ
im sure people pirate music still but on the level they used to like in the napster days>? i dunno , tv shows and movies are probably the main offenders now, and software. people seem to be happy with digital music stores and things like spotify.
ClosingADoor
Member
So people should give money and then just hope the studios are finally coming up with better services? Sure, it would be better if people just stopped watching the content if they aren't happy with the service, but that's not reality.
They are a company like any other and they make money by offering the consumer what they want. Clearly, with so many people pirating, their business model is broken.
I can only do that if I pirate. Not everyone lives in the US. And most of that stuff is so fragmented you have to subscribe to multiple services and go to multiple places. Not really easy to use for many people.
If I lend my car to someone and they use it in a criminal activity, am I to blame? Maybe not the best analogy, but you get my meaning I think.
Of those, I think only iTunes offers stuff here, and not everything that should be available. Localization and rights distribution seem to prevent a worldwide unified solution.
There are multiple ways, sure. But why isn't there one way that works for everything. I think that is the major problem. People want a unified solution where they can just go for everything. An app store for movies and tv if you will.
Sure, but if those other forms of distribution are on the decline, they have to accept that lesser percentage of income.
Of course it is illegal and they have every right to enforce the law. I don't have any problem with that. I have no right to their content and they can price it whatever they want. But they can't ignore why people are pirating. Downloading is never going away anymore, so they need to change their business model. That's all I'm saying. And I think the best option for that is offer a unified, easy to use and cheap worldwide service that offers more value then pirating. Sure, there are tons of problems to arrange something like that, but it is certainly possible if you look at iTunes and Steam, to two major digital download success stories of the past ten years.
Dunno but I feel that the Itunes store is alright and works perfectly fine for regular music, and I used beatport for my dj music. Netflix works great for video on demand stuff. I'm not sure why people are saying those services are terrible. Of course the underground scene will always provide a best alternative; they dont have any kind of production overhead, etc etc. Legit companies have to air ads and so on because they are there to make money off their investments; but you can't say that legit companies arent trying.. Because they are.
I mean try to imagine the paperwork nightmare it must be to deal with movies; all the different people that have to get paid, all the bs, all the agreements, etc etc.. Netflix Canada has to deal with all that shit, so I can understand why its not the best service right now.
I mean try to imagine the paperwork nightmare it must be to deal with movies; all the different people that have to get paid, all the bs, all the agreements, etc etc.. Netflix Canada has to deal with all that shit, so I can understand why its not the best service right now.
DonasaurusRex
Online Ho Champ
....yeah some services are like that, HBOGO , you can stream their stuff as they premiere. But the level of service can get better for a lot of shows. Movies people bootleg because they can plain and simple even if they were new and cheap.
nVidiot_Whore
Banned
There are ways to buy content digitally online.. clearly there is an interest in even more digital content being offered in various ways.
Many people interested in this content are currently pirating... if a move like this can scare enough of them off, they might start investing even more in digital services.. showing the studios even MORE that there is money to be made selling digital content.
Either way it's protecting the right of legitimate copyright holders, selling legitimate products that fund numerous industries... being against a measure that protects these rights while not costing taxpayers loads of money, doesn't put anyone in jail, etc..??? Ridiculous.
Yes, TV on the internet could get better. But I don't see any excuse for pirating music or films.....at least not if "They need to provide better service!" is the argument. You can stream almost anything you want instantly if you are willing to pay for it. That's arguably superior service since there is no instant-stream for pirates.
A private company shouldn't be able to get my internet connection shut off on the basis of an unproven claim against me.
I'll admit that this is a better solution than suing grandma and grandpa because someone used the unprotected access point the ISP provided to download something, but it's not ideal.
I'll admit that this is a better solution than suing grandma and grandpa because someone used the unprotected access point the ISP provided to download something, but it's not ideal.
nVidiot_Whore
Banned
What about a publicly traded company? What about an individual IP holder?
I own some IP, I can report you too. Do I have enough rights to send such a warning?
Either way.. your internet isn't immediately shut off.
But let's all pretend somehow our IP addresses are going to get wrongly reported.. or that our "friends" are going to cause us trouble..
DonasaurusRex
Online Ho Champ
i think some people get pissed because they ARE paying for it, but its still a hassle, ill be honest some shows that i miss, are easier to view if i grab a torrent and watch them on my pc. I still pay my cable bill, it was a movie on cable and lo and behold its not streaming on my ISP's oh so awesome website that streams whats on my tv. Everything from my ISp comes from one damn pipe but sometimes shit isnt available online but its on demand, or the on demand is 2 random eps the latest ep and the pilot or something dumb like that.
Yes, let's pretend that there weren't hapless elderly people sued on wrongful claims that they had downloaded copyrighted material. That'll add to this debate.
How exactly would they argue with the ISP? "Here's my harddrive, you can check it to make sure that "Big Badonks 3" isn't currently present"? What credibility does someone in that position have? How would an ISP afford the personnel to handle every single person trying to fight the claims made against them?
This is a plan doomed to failure. If it costs ISP's money (how could it not?) I'm sure they'll pass that cost on to subscribers as well.
nVidiot_Whore
Banned
The article says nothing of a hapless elderly person getting sued. So yeah.. let's not pretend.
She recieved a cease and desist from Verizon.. it's a pretty big difference. She learned something: don't have an unsecured wireless connection.
We'll just have to see how it plays out. If you aren't happy with your service though.. you can cancel it. It will simply become an issue of customer service, since this isn't a legal matter.
But they don't have to prove anything.. if you claim your neighbor was at fault.. well.. you are still at fault for allowing your connection to be used by your neighbor. From their perspective it really shouldn't matter.
I doubt it will be much of an issue.. the vast majority of reports will be legitimate. People will know they are legitimate.. will lots file false claims that it wasn't them? Maybe.. but whether or not the data originated from your IP isn't hard to "prove".. in the end, it's a violation of your agreement with the ISP no matter who was using your service.
It can potentially save them loads of money.. there are costs associated with the massive amount of bandwidth that piracy represents. It's a tightrope for them because they also potentially could lose subscribers.. but that's pretty doubtful. People won't cancel their broadband because they can't pirate any more en masse.
My point is that the "better service" whining is just very dumb and vague posturing from any of the whiners in the USA. Service here is excellent for movies and music.....and good-to-great for television. The people saying that they are waiting for "better service" to stop pirating are just full of shit -- they'll pirate no matter how good the service is. The "service" of ThePirateBay is arguably worse since there's no instant streaming and download speeds are slower, but since it's free that will always remain the go-to option for many people.
If you're in another country and content is heavily restricted or unavailable that's another issue. But we're in a thread about American content providers and American ISPs, so I'm not sure if the situation in Tanzania or Germany has much relevance.
el retorno
Member
You have Spotify, iTunes, Youtube in the Netherlands (And most of Western Europe). You have no reason to justify piracy on music. None.
That's my only problem. Prove that the person is pirating. Not just that their IP is pirating.
Baggatoast
Member
That's it, I'm making a pirate radio station!
Take that government!
Take that government!
That is the innovation he was talking about.
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