Introduction to MOBAs

R

Razzer

Member
zkylon said:
there's a lot, tho imo not enough

all champions have one skin, with most having 2 or more and a few having 5 or 6. there's a bunch of legendary skins of varied qualities (some are godly, some are really bad) and there's 2 ultimate skins, both of which are pretty awesome but also pretty expensive (tho discounted enough on release that a lot of people get them)

there should be more tho, i want more

MORE
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Ah cool. Not all heroes have cosmetics yet, but to steal a post just now in the Dota thread.

Wow, the amount of heroes with no hats at all is a lot lower than I thought
Ancient Apparition
Bane
Elder Titan
Enigma
Io
Jakiro
Magnus
Night Stalker
Phoenix
Shadow Fiend
Timbersaw
Tinker
Treant Protector
Troll Warlord
Undying
Venomancer
Viper
Visage
Zeus

It's basically just an odd assortment of heroes either already set up for items and not workshop ready (Treant, Tinker, Night Stalker, Troll, Undying, Magnus), heroes that are due for a remake (SF, Zeus, Jakiro), or a few oddballs like Phoenix who aren't going to be remade but aren't set up for items (also AA and Venomancer). Oh, and Io.

Seems like of the heroes that can have items, have items (except Elder Titan). Although counting Terrorblade might be cheating, as he's not item ready yet, but has one cosmetic.
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(Thanks Ballad!) As you can see, Valve make them ready and then people can make items and submit them for approval. Recently there has been some grumbling about how little information on how to get something approved there is, but I honestly don't know much about it. That said, the level of 'marketing' these sets get seems to keep getting better and better. Take this set for instance. A creative trailer with lore for the set, all made by the community. It's not better than riot or anything, but I wanted to point it out because it's just nice to see.

Edit: I see I was beaten to the Witch doctor set video haha, we all love that one.
 
L

Leezard

Member
Imperfected said:
Yes and no. They've been doing a good job with skins lately, but they're still responsible for the Garbage Pail Kid mess that is Poppy, so they get no free passes.

Most champions have between one and three non-default skins, I'd guess. A few have significantly more, either because they're older, more popular, or just easier to make skins for than others.

The main benefit of having Riot do skins themselves is that you get stuff like Super Galaxy Rumble that, due to the sheer scale of work involved, you're pretty unlikely to see as a community-made creation. (Actually I don't think it would be allowed even if someone did make it, I'm pretty sure it breaks some rules of silhouette readability and such.)
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Considering Super Galaxy Rumble is essentially a new rig/champion model which will likely be used for his visual update, I do not think anything fan made could be allowed to be like that.
This has happened before for Steel Legion Garen.
 
S

Schweinehund

Member
Some people like this dota 2 meta, but personally I hate it right now, I think it's the worst it's been the last 3 years. It seems less about pushing/farming/tactical battles, and more about picking whoever can 5 man deathball and just roam around. It feels brainless and makes for a limited pool choice.
 
H

Hylian7

Member
Schweinehund said:
Some people like this dota 2 meta, but personally I hate it right now, I think it's the worst it's been the last 3 years. It seems less about pushing/farming/tactical battles, and more about picking whoever can 5 man deathball and just roam around. It feels brainless and makes for a limited pool choice.
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I hate it too, as well as rat Dota, but both of those are better that two hour Chinese Farmville every match, which used to be so popular.
 
I

Imperfected

Member
The video is really cool, but the cosmetics aren't really on the scale of what I'm talking about, no.

The Super Galaxy Rumble skin required basically a completely new animation set from the skeleton up, new visual effects (animations, particles, textures, etc.) for all abilities, a completely new voice-over, etc. To be honest, it's a bit disingenuous to call it a "skin" since that implies a texture or cosmetic that's applied on top of a base, when it's actually a completely new base visual design for the champion.

Most of League's skins are just that, though: skins. There's only a handful of the complete ground-up redesigns in the style of SGR, and they're all very expensive.
 
S

Schweinehund

Member
Farming is good in moderation. I liked the game more before they upped the gold per minute for everyone. Feels like icefrog needs to go back and readjust some heroes to make them come into play even earlier, or else they'll never be picked.
 
R

Razzer

Member
Imperfected said:
The video is really cool, but the cosmetics aren't really on the scale of what I'm talking about, no.

The Super Galaxy Rumble skin required basically a completely new animation set from the skeleton up, new visual effects (animations, particles, textures, etc.) for all abilities, a completely new voice-over, etc. To be honest, it's a bit disingenuous to call it a "skin" since that implies a texture or cosmetic that's applied on top of a base, when it's actually a completely new base visual design for the champion.

Most of League's skins are just that, though: skins. There's only a handful of the complete ground-up redesigns in the style of SGR, and they're all very expensive.
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Yeah, the workshop doesn't allow for cosmetics of that scale. Valve have released Arcana sets (3 in fact), but the tools to do so are not available to the community. Maybe if Anuxi or Bounch wander in here they could go into more detail as they'll know more than me about it.

Edit: I should mention Arcana sets are the ones on the scale you mention. Though they generally don't wander as far from the original design.
 
H

Hylian7

Member
Razzer said:
Yeah, the workshop doesn't allow for cosmetics of that scale. Valve have released Arcana sets (3 in fact), but the tools to do so are not available to the community. Maybe if Anuxi or Bounch wander in here they could go into more detail as they'll know more than me about it.
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Glacial Tiny was community if I recall correctly.
 
D

dave is ok

aztek is ok
Riot redo the complete model and rigging for champs and lock them behind expensive ass skins

Udyr and Rumble both look like trash, but they decided to sell their visual upgrade as 20 dollar skins
 
S

SteveWinwood

Member
From what I gather this ruble thing is just timbersaw but then they made him into a spaceship. Yeah that wouldn't really be allowed as it looks way too different and the community would throw a shitfit for lore breaking. I don't see anything that couldn't be community sourced though. People can make animations, textures, effects... even new rigging or polys.

Hylian7 said:
Glacial Tiny was community if I recall correctly.
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Yeah but it's just a skin basically.
 
I

Imperfected

Member
Razzer said:
Yeah, the workshop doesn't allow for cosmetics of that scale. Valve have released Arcana sets (3 in fact), but the tools to do so are not available to the community. Maybe if Anuxi or Bounch wander in here they could go into more detail as they'll know more than me about it.

Edit: I should mention Arcana sets are the ones on the scale you mention. Though they generally don't wander as far from the original design.
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Yeah, it's rough giving the community access to that level of redesign, as people could end up creating something that doesn't "read" properly as the champion in question anymore. The Rumble skin would probably be guilty of that if there were any other champions that looked even remotely like Rumble, but he's sort of this big goofy mecha thing (sort of like Timbersaw) so there's not much mistaking him for anyone else.
 
sobaka770

sobaka770

Banned
Heavy's Sandvich said:
I think it's useful being the source of material and information as soon as possible. If this does take off, people will be seeking these videos.
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I'd love to agree but the chances that the build they are showing will even exist in a couple of months is extremely low. Developers said many times that talent system is what they are working on right now the most. He'd rather play a game with that hero explaining the mechanics and current build at least that'd have gameplay in it.
 
K

krpiper

Member
Any tips for my laptop to run DotA well?

It has a weak 540m, and at times it gets 60fps, but also at random times it nosedives into the teens :(
 
I

Imperfected

Member
krpiper said:
Any tips for my laptop to run DotA well?

It has a weak 540m, and at times it gets 60fps, but also at random times it nosedives into the teens :(
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Get good cyka.

I kid. Umm, is it completely random when the framerate dips, or is it mostly happening in reaction to a lot of particle effects or shadows or something being on the screen, or possibly some kind of mild physics effects like trees falling and such?
 
Z

zkylon

zkylewd
yea gurren lagann rumble is maybe a bit over what is allowed for the community but that's a pretty unique skin in general

i think doto skin stuff is a lot more in-lore too, right? or at least like stylistically safe?

no k-pop windrunner or something?

Razzer said:
I'm reading that this sjokz person is an LCS host and podcast member? Seeing as Valve only have the International, it's hard to draw comparisons, but in terms of hosting I guess 2GD (some might know him from other stuff) does that for a number of tournaments these days, including the last two TIs. But the commentary studios are community ones rather than Valve.

Euranae I could only find cosplay news, which I assume isn't her main thing so I dunno.

As for hero complexity, some Dota players are always gonna try to big up the harder ones to make it seem like they are all that hard but in reality most heroes follow the same basic outline in most MOBAs. The only thing I have gathered from my friend who plays League is that there are more micro intensive heroes in Dota than most, but they aren't everywhere or anything.
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yea sjokz and euranae are just the hostesses (or were in euranae's case) of eu lcs and ogn respectively.

i'm just asking random question right now cos i like friendly chats with doters

i like violent talks too tho, but i'll leave that to boko when i'm off sleeping

and i dunno how micro everything is in doto. what i gather is that cooldwons are higher and that league is a lot more spammy, but doto has like 29 active items per game and mutliple units so there's something there too.

i think league's a lot more action-y, maybe more intensive on an average, tho micro gets insane on the most extreme cases goes to doto with the clones and whatnot

dave is ok said:
Riot redo the complete model and rigging for champs and lock them behind expensive ass skins

Udyr and Rumble both look like trash, but they decided to sell their visual upgrade as 20 dollar skins
Click to expand...
i think rito will eventually just update the base models for them

if a champion looks like shit no one will spend a lot of money on their skins, rito surely has interesting in making the base skin look good
 
D

danmaku

Member
zkylon said:
yea gurren lagann rumble is maybe a bit over what is allowed for the community but that's a pretty unique skin in general

i think doto skin stuff is a lot more in-lore too, right? or at least like stylistically safe?

no k-pop windrunner or something?
Click to expand...

Yes, there are guidelines for items so you can't create stuff that's too far from the hero's style. Something like nurse Akali is totally impossible, but "too far" is still highly subjective. In the end it's Valve that decides what's ok and what's not. They'll probably relax their rules as time goes by.
 
R

Razzer

Member
So because I like cool shit, how about people post some of there fave scenarios from their game of choice. Things that can happen that you just think are especially cool.

For me, one of the coolest in Dota is a Song of the Siren initiation. Now, any self-respecting follower of the Dota 2 pro scene has seen the play, but that clip doesn't completely explain it. Unlike a lot of initiation tools, Song creates this eerie moment where you and your teammates and the enemy team are all hovering over there keyboards in anticipation. You get a few seconds to stop, analyse, and decide on what to do when it ends. All while this plays in the background. That moment of calm is one of the most unique I've experienced.

Of course, these days the spell is used as a get out of jail free card by people spiltpushing, so it's one of the most hated spells in the current meta. But when used to fight rather than run, it's awesome.

Gimme more non-dota examples, I wanna see cool shit!
 
K

krpiper

Member
Imperfected said:
Get good cyka.

I kid. Umm, is it completely random when the framerate dips, or is it mostly happening in reaction to a lot of particle effects or shadows or something being on the screen, or possibly some kind of mild physics effects like trees falling and such?
Click to expand...

It seems to be random, at times its at expected time, when there is a large team fight or something, but others it seems to be random, during the shop screen. Just laning, or walking through the jungle
 
L

Leezard

Member
dave is ok said:
Riot redo the complete model and rigging for champs and lock them behind expensive ass skins

Udyr and Rumble both look like trash, but they decided to sell their visual upgrade as 20 dollar skins
Click to expand...

Garen recently looked terrible as well, but then they used his new expensive skin as a base for his visual upgrade for all other skins. I would expect to see the same for Rumble.
 
I

Imperfected

Member
krpiper said:
It seems to be random, at times its at expected time, when there is a large team fight or something, but others it seems to be random, during the shop screen. Just laning, or walking through the jungle
Click to expand...

Hmm. I'm not sure why opening shop would do it, unless maybe it's a memory allocation issue? Do you have any RAM-hogs running while you play? (Firefox, for example, can spring a leak and just start hemorrhaging memory even if you aren't actively using it.)
 
R

Razzer

Member
Edwardo said:
I will.

Has there been any more info out there about the arrival of my homies Squee, Spleen, and Spoon?
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Judging from the files they should be one of the next heroes added, but we don't know for sure. Also, that could be ages away, cus Valve are on vacation and they will be working on TI stuff soon.
 
A

Armaros

Member
Schweinehund said:
Farming is good in moderation. I liked the game more before they upped the gold per minute for everyone. Feels like icefrog needs to go back and readjust some heroes to make them come into play even earlier, or else they'll never be picked.
Click to expand...

A larger percentage of heroes have been used in this patch in competave dota then almost all of the major patches yet.

There have been bo3s where 20-30 different heroes have been picked or banned.
 
H

Hylian7

Member
zkylon said:
i started watching that but after a few minutes it felt like a long doto2 ad

i dunno, maybe another day

i didn't like indie game the movie either so maybe that's it
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I never understand this criticism of the movie. They hardly talk about actually playing the game and when they do they illustrate the plays the players refer to with the SFM sequences.

I told you to stay in the trees!
 
A

Armaros

Member
Hylian7 said:
I never understand this criticism of the movie. They hardly talk about actually playing the game and when they do they illustrate the plays the players refer to with the SFM sequences.

I told you to stay in the trees!
Click to expand...

If it was a commercial for dota2, then valve did something funny with it considering how little of the actual game you see.
 
Z

zkylon

zkylewd
so some good league plays

some classics would be the faker vs ryu zed vs zed duel, xpeke's crazy backdoor against sk, doublelift's ezreal pentakill and insec's meta defining "insec" kick on yellowpete.

the one case i can think of that's similar to the one posted from doto would be forellonlord's ori and rumble shockwave into equalizer combo

there's probably more but these i can think of right now

Hylian7 said:
I never understand this criticism of the movie. They hardly talk about actually playing the game and when they do they illustrate the plays the players refer to with the SFM sequences.

I told you to stay in the trees!
Click to expand...
well i'm not really saying the whole movie's like that, i just started watching it, got that impression and just turned it off. maybe didn't give it enough of a chance but i dunno
 
R

Razzer

Member
Leezard said:
Esports didn't exist ten years ago right
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That and a couple of other comments are a little dumb, but the main gist of the movie is about the 3 players it follows and the impact on their lives. The Dota 2 focus was just to establish background at the start.

That said, TI1 did propel prizepools to an extent, outside of Korea in particular.
 
C

Clearos

Member
I;m surprised Smite didn't make an appearance at Pax East along with the other mobas now that is set as released.

I think it is the best action moba out currently and has a healthy population. (no where in terms of LoL and Dota)
 
Head of Vengarl

Head of Vengarl

Banned
One thing I really appreciate about Dota 2 is that it doesn't objectify every female character in the game. The only overtly sexual character is Queen of Pain, and that's fine because it's part of her lore.

I don't play LoL but I've seen plenty of anime-esque "fanservice" in their female character models.

And Smite is super guilty of this too. A common excuse for it is: "Hey, they are goddesses, so they're supposed to be physically perfect!" But c'mon now. Most of the female gods look like porn stars.

I'm not some crazy feminist or anything
I totes got an A in my women's studies class in college tho
but it just cheapens the game's overall design when you do that.
 
S

SteveWinwood

Member
I'm watching the All-star match from TI3 again.

It's so fun!

Clearos said:
I;m surprised Smite didn't make an appearance at Pax East along with the other mobas now that is set as released.

I think it is the best action moba out currently and has a healthy population. (no where in terms of LoL and Dota)
Click to expand...

All I saw on every single stream of any PAX event were newegg ads and giant SMITE banners.

I'd say it got repped.
 
I

Imperfected

Member
Clearos said:
I;m surprised Smite didn't make an appearance at Pax East along with the other mobas now that is set as released.

I think it is the best action moba out currently and has a healthy population. (no where in terms of LoL and Dota)
Click to expand...

Wait, it didn't? They've been at every PAX event for a good clip now.

Then again, PAX East in general seems to have had a weird rotation of attendees this year. Maybe there's some sort of scheduling problem?
 
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