I don't understand this. What is wrong with healers?
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- Thread starter SteveWinwood
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I don't understand this. What is wrong with healers?
i thin ksomeone explained it to me at some point but i forget
unlike like morello who talks a lot we don't even hear about this pendragon person
from what i understand morello doesn't really like sustain healers
like most heals in league now have mechanics to make it better in combat than just constantly topping people off. so like they'll give you armor for a short time or a movespeed, or like in nami's case it'll bounce off and damage people, etc.
so like the idea is for heals to be more interactive than "you didn't kill me so i slowly win cos i heal faster than you"
manfestival
Member
the void and yordles to me are what make lols lore far more superior to dota 2
lol voice acting is pretty awesome. ziggs is probably my favorite voice actor for his demented nature, then probably timbersaw (but it took me a while to get into his VA) Everyone in dota 2 just seems "too human"
lol voice acting is pretty awesome. ziggs is probably my favorite voice actor for his demented nature, then probably timbersaw (but it took me a while to get into his VA) Everyone in dota 2 just seems "too human"
BossLackey
Gold Member
Just started playing Dota 2. First MOBA for me. Not nearly as complicated as I though it was going to be. The tutorial does a good job of teaching you the mechanics. Obviously I'm not even close to good yet, nor do I know all the facets of gameplay, but my first game I did pretty well.
Dota players don't like him cus he shut down the biggest Dota community site and replaced it with a link to LoL (or was it an ad?). Whilst he hasn't done much since, that's a pretty huge dick move. That said, whenever anyone tries to use that to shame riot it's silly as it's just the one guy being an asshole.
I actually had a conversation about this with Boken a few days ago.
Most Dota heals have a duality (Omni and Dazzle heals also deal damage), have some degree of counterplay (Living Armor charges can be removed, Juggernaut ward can be attacked) or are time prohibitive (2 minute cooldown on Chen utli pre Agha).
LoL has healers (Soraka and Sona) who have straight heals that serve no other purpose.
Pureauthor
Member
Back before news aggregate sites like Reddit were a thing everyone who was into Dota used the a site called Dota-Allstars to discuss the game, so it was basically the Dota community hub for the internet.
Pendragon ran the site. Then one day he got hired by Riot and so he took the site down and replaced it with a LoL ad.
So, yeah, all the oldschool Dota guys hate his guts.
What about Voodoo Restoration
SteveWinwood
Member
So instead of having 5 useful characters you have 4 useful ones with a shitty fifth trying to make the other four more useful to make up for it but probably failing?
And the accusations that tons of lol design are stolen from that websites hero suggestion threads.
The one part that pendragon didn't upload when he put up his backed up copy of the site like 3 years later.
Then there was the time early in LoLs history, where certains devs wouldn't stop talking about how Dota was filled with 'antifun' and 'burden of knowledge, mechanics and heroes.
And then they proceeded to make the same 'mistakes' they accused dota of having. At least now the devs know better (most of the time) now to stick to talking about League and not to rambling about dota, and how badly designed they think it is.
First, note that having a hero/champ that can heal is different from a dedicated healer, whose main purpose is to heal.
The short version: You get ridiculously boring laning when you have a dedicated healer that can essentially remove any aggression from the opponents. Not to mention the terrible poke heal meta that can show up.
In laning phase, this is more of a problem in League than Dota due to the nature of more spammy spells. Dazzle still has a heal right? But it's not very strong and he can't use it as much as he wants, so it's all right. Also he needs to use it on someone in the face of the enemy to fully utilize it.
Strong heals in general make the game more passive when they are just used to top up somebody's health. This is the reasoning used when League's heals are moved more towards heals that are more useful when used as clutch heals (i.e when the target health is low the heal is more effective), while being less effective as heals when the target has much health. Also, this is the reasoning why there are more shields in League instead of heals, since you need to time your shield properly to block damage rather than just healing after the damage is done. A shield will expire, a heal will stay there no matter what. Also, weaker heals with temporary armor buffs.
Many people in League didn't like how Morello disliked heals, but in the latest patch (4.5), the Heal summoner spell got a buff. Now pros are running healing comps, and it is generally relatively boring to watch compared to before. People are now rightfully crying for nerfs to the Heal spell, which is completely reasonable. Morello's opinion is vindicated.
Not necessarily shitty.
Soraka has a targetable heal, a global heal for her ult, a silence (which restores mana if used on an ally), and a sustained damage aoe that stacks and reduces magic resistance. She's being played as more than a support right now as well. Champions with utility are pretty strong right now.
SteveWinwood
Member
Dazzles shadow wave kind of sucks as a heal.
It's way better as a 'oh shit you're surrounded by stuff'
Zap
Dead.
It's way better as a 'oh shit you're surrounded by stuff'
Zap
Dead.
Always exceptions to the rule!
Also, WD can't consistently keep VR up (unless you're like 8-0 and have bought Arcanes and an Agha) and if you max it early you're going to miss out on looking at it go.
Carry Dazzle is the way to go
manfestival
Member
Pureauthor
Member
I think a way to get sustained heals might also promote aggression on the team with the heal. I remember back in the glory days of Dota's Treant Living Armour, it allowed a Weaver (an incredibly fragile but also incredibly mobile hero) to dive an enemy hero all the way from the T1 towers to the T3, get the kill, and still walk away alive.
Man, Living Armour.
i actually tend to agree with morello and like him a lot
like he gets all the flak for being the public face of the design team, but he has so little input on specific nerfs and such that it's sad to see people get the pitchforks on him when he has nothing to do with them
i do think rito sometimes does massively drop the ball, like pretty much half the things about the latest patch, but u know, shit happens
sometimes it feels they don't analyze the game enough
like he gets all the flak for being the public face of the design team, but he has so little input on specific nerfs and such that it's sad to see people get the pitchforks on him when he has nothing to do with them
i do think rito sometimes does massively drop the ball, like pretty much half the things about the latest patch, but u know, shit happens
sometimes it feels they don't analyze the game enough
Exactly, and this is why his heal is great. Imagine if he had an Omniknight heal that didn't damage enemies, instead it just healed say 500 HP per use.
I bet only the team with the Treant liked this
Because the laning phase in league "slower" than dota, non-creep-dependent sustain from the very beginning means a super-safe lane that can only be beaten by all in or a visit from the jungler.
If there was greater 100-0 potential early game, or turrets were weaker, or there was a design willingness to make healers truly useless in laning rather than Soraka's absurd waveclear and mana restore or a good Sona's carry-competitive pokes and AoE stun, then they'd be less of an issue. Low-level all in potential has definitely increased, though, with the recent support meta focusing on hooks and low-CD stuns.
Garena too childish
He heal portion is really only important when sustaining a siege, (healing chip damage, healing the creep wave and killing the enemy creep wave all at once) but it's not going to keep you alive if you get focused, that's shallow graves job.
Exactly, and this is why his heal is great. Imagine if he had an Omniknight heal that didn't damage enemies, instead it just healed say 500 HP per use.
I bet only the team with the Treant liked this
Yah, it got nerfed. Now hes an early game tree of death, just walk around and hit stuff from level 1 and you can get so many kills. In fact he might be the strongest hero for the early game judging from what we've seen.
Tree has the highest base damage at level one, it's something ridiculous like 80-90, but his BAT is pretty terrible and he has low armor.
Which is why you take leech seed level 1 and either boots or OoV and go ham with a partner like tusk or something.
SteveWinwood
Member
i like to jungle this hero
Schweinehund
Member
Icefraud is an enigmatic figure, I don't think there's a league comparison. He's pretty seclusive even in terms of communicating with the community. Some part of me hopes that we never find out who he really is, so we can deify him.
Tree has enough mana to use seed once in a lane at low levels(1-3)if you fail your gank, you are now just a big melee creep with no armor and no living armor to help anyone...
It's a big risk, especially if you get boots or an OoV instead of wards and sustain items with your starting gold. (you would be expected to pool tangos to your mid if this was a high level game)
I know what they said, but it could not have been more than a jokey test. Emulating a mouse with a joystick is grossly inadequate for the precision and map searching, and while there are a few overly simplistic heroes in HotS that could get away with wildly mashing buttons others are more demanding. Overhead RTS/MOBA style games are an impossible experience to accurately deliver to a gamepad because they lack the capacity to map scan that is required for these style of games.
Both Sona and Soraka get more out of the heal than just the HP it restores. In Soraka's case specifically it comes with a short duration massive defensive buff that is often used to bait the enemy team into overcommiting.
ScepticMatt
Member
I don't know enough about Hots to know. I guess we'll see.
He can only communicate through DBZ RPG custom maps
Wasn't he more open with the community in the past?
I thought I read about him trying to reach out to community members for ideas and they ended up just berating him constantly.
SteveWinwood
Member
Berating? I've never heard that. He used to do little Q and As but he hasn't done them in forever.
He still reaches out to plenty of pro players and community figures for their thoughts.
You can email him here if you want: icefrog@gmail.com
He shares the same email philosophy as valve where he claims to read every single one.
Clearly you've never seen a tree aggressive trilane at high levels. I don't think I've ever seen one fail, it's practically guaranteed fb if you have the heroes.
I'm exaggerating, but it's very fun.
I can't find the link, but I remember reading in the past about how he started to become more involved in the overseas community after the US edit: English community started to go after him about nerfs/changes to their heroes.
I could be completely wrong though, but I'll try and find the information I read.
Found it. Not sure how credible it is, haha.
Schweinehund
Member
He posts on his chinese weibo account occassionally, and he talks to some casters/pro players. Rarely does he openly talk directly to community people.
So what's currently the biggest thing affecting Dota 2 now?
League just recently got a new item that's causing quite a bit of uproar. Gives junglers an on-hit damage+heal and increases in potency the more jungle monsters you kill. Late game some of the junglers are just insane....
League just recently got a new item that's causing quite a bit of uproar. Gives junglers an on-hit damage+heal and increases in potency the more jungle monsters you kill. Late game some of the junglers are just insane....
For casual: Lycan, Terrorblade, and any variation of push strats (deathball or split push). It just so happens that these two heroes enable both pushing strats.
For competitive: Nothing much, although people are currently complaining about Naga Radiance (think Sunfire Shaco except with 4 Illusions he can micro) because it's kind of boring to watch.
For competitive: Nothing much, although people are currently complaining about Naga Radiance (think Sunfire Shaco except with 4 Illusions he can micro) because it's kind of boring to watch.
Yeah the thing to talk about in Dota right now other than TB and Phoenix being OP (neither are in the tournament mode) is trying to work out where all the pro teams stack up vs each other. They are all playing at similar levels, much more competitive than I've ever seen pro Dota (which is since like late 2012.)
Edit: And Lycan yeah.
Edit: And Lycan yeah.
Well this is awesome.
I'm pretty sure Lycan has an incredible win rate in pro matches. The rat coming out of Lycan and Naga is gonna get them both nerfed at the same time again.
Pureauthor
Member
Yeah, no. Lycan has an absolutely absurd 66% winrate in comp games.
Edit: The other big thing will be the East vs West rivalry which is gonna flare up again at Starladder IX.
Schweinehund
Member
Emp invoker is also an incredibly safe pick right now in both pubs and pro play.
It's not even his best vid. They are all worth checking out.