new players are probably affected by the toxic behavior of their teammates which in turns makes them play bad
Introduction to MOBAs
- Thread starter SteveWinwood
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new players are probably affected by the toxic behavior of their teammates which in turns makes them play bad
SteveWinwood
Member
why not just make the poorly designed champs... better designed
TharpDaddy
Member
Usually a champion with little counterplay. A champion that is too good at everything, and has few weaknesses. For example, old Evelyn had perma stealth and a stun. She could roam around the map, force the enemy to buy pink wards (more expensive) and play very defensive. If you didn't do one of those, she would just walk up to you and stun you and you'd die. Riot obliterated her until they could rework her because she was a toxic champion to play against. You either played a certain way or she would snowball the game. She was not fun to play against. There's no real champion that toxic anymore, but someone like Renekton is very powerful with few drawbacks. This leads to him being very popular in the top lane and stops other picks from being viable due to his strength. Want to play __ top? You better hope he's a better laner than Renekton or outscales him hard otherwise you will lose. Renekton was THE best bruiser, so you either chose Renekton, or Shyvana/Trundle (who both outscale him eventually). The top lane for a while, and to an extent still is, 3 champions. Rather than nerf him -- which might leave him unviable -- they are going to buff other champions that have opportunities to be strong in the right hands, but also have counterplay.
This is true, and it's made worse by the fact that you have to buy champs. If you don't understand how an ability works in dota, you load that hero up in a bot game and play around with it until you figure it out.
In LoL you are forced to go to outside of game resources to learn how things work which is a shitty solution IMO.
Of course both games have weird things they obfuscate in the UI, like ability ranges and mana bars in dota, But IMO know what people can do is pretty vital and it sucks that it is so difficult to see that information from within the game.
From a new player's perspective I don't really think there is a huge amount of difference in actual accessibility between the two games, and I think the initial difficulty of both games is hugely overstated. We are not talking about Dota 1 here where ever hero has it's own hot keys. Dota 2 is pretty damn easy to get into if you stick to the limited pool heroes, several of which are way simpler to learn than any LoL hero because there are so many passives on heroes like Drow and Wraith King.
It's at the higher end of the skill curve where the difference between Dota and LoL becomes large. At low skill levels players don't even use 90% of the mechanics that Dota has and LoL doesn't. People don't deny at all before like 2200 MMR, they don't use couriers, you don't see people using high skill cap heroes like chen or puck, etc.
They already have with some, there are just too many of them though atm I guess, thus the "nerf badly designed champ, another poorly designed champ takes his place". Note that what constitutes a bad design in League is not necessarily a bad design in dota and vice versa.
A long time ago, in the days of yore and horizontally stretched WC3 clients, DotA was undergoing a depression. Passive farming, two hour long games, it was a rough time to play and watch DotA.
Then our God, Icefraud, deigned to descend from his heavenly throne and bequeath unto us peasants the gift of Smoke, and the meta was stale no longer.
If DotA before smoke was like trench warfare during WWI, then DotA after smoke was like the Blitzkrieg of WWII.
Then our God, Icefraud, deigned to descend from his heavenly throne and bequeath unto us peasants the gift of Smoke, and the meta was stale no longer.
If DotA before smoke was like trench warfare during WWI, then DotA after smoke was like the Blitzkrieg of WWII.
I was in those trenches, I enjoyed them very much.
Why are you guys buying into this toxic bs, it's more vapid than MOBA
Also I don't get how buying pink wards and placing them well isn't counterplay.
So in this context it basically means champions that challenge the rigid meta and force players to play differently than they're used to? I'd say the fact that almost every hero can ruin your day in very different ways is a big part of what makes Dota so varied and rewarding.
Also I don't get how buying pink wards and placing them well isn't counterplay.
They do though, because people don't buy the better real wards as much anymore.
#forevertrenchtier
The principle seems fair. Though that just seems like they mean op rather than toxic.
Nah, these champions are some of the cores of the current meta, so about the opposite of what you interpreted.
Also wards being on a timer, so if the enemy team de wards you, you are fucked on vision for 6 minutes.
Granted dota wards last longer, but that just increases the importance of dewarding them.
There are also little things like the same ward giving truesight and vision, etc. that make vision overpowered in LoL compared to Dota. Riot has been continuously buffing wards for years as well.
But isn't that why Riot's balancing them out now
Oh sorry I might have misinterpreted what you said. I meant that some of the "unhealthy" champs are some of the cores of the current meta.
no syndra skin so whatevs
TheFightingFish
Member
Hey while this thread is on the MOBA back and forth kick. I don't play Dota 2, but I find competitive gaming pretty interesting and I've had fun watching a few matches ever since TI3. But I've never actually seen a match of LoL. Obviously I can find tons of matches online, but if I'm going to start somewhere I'd rather see the best of the best. Anyone want to link me to a really good recent LoL match? Or short series?
Unhealthy is the same as toxic, right? These words are confusing
In any case I probably don't know enough about the current meta to go into too detailed of a discussion (someone said it's all about early pushing right now I think), but what I meant by "rigid meta" is that overall it seems to me that there's really only one competitively viable strategy at any given point in time. And if Riot deems it toxic or unhealthy it gets nerfed, similar to Icefraud killing defensive trilanes like half a year ago, but quickly the next very dominant strategy emerges - unlike in Dota, where heroes are allowed to fulfill highly diversified and specific roles and are less constricted by a handful of archetypes they're made to fit into. thus giving players a plethora of impactful options to change the way the game is played. If that makes any sense.
I think he was referring to ' You either played a certain way or she would snowball the game.' As long as she isn't op this shouldn't be a problem. If something is counter-able, even if you don't particularly like doing that counter, it shouldn't be considered 'toxic' imo. It sounds like how supports grumble about the detection tax against invis heroes or complaining that you have to group at night to avoid Nightstalker ganks cus you prefer being alone. But whatever I don't know how true any of it actually is.
Edit: I was wrong he meant something else. But that's my opinion in any case.
That's actually precisely what I meant by "being forced to play differently than they're used to" mechanically/on a smaller scale, like how a lane plays out in practice and what you have to look out for momentarily (pink wards and more defensive positioning in this case). It's late and I kind of went off on a tangent there
Taking another example from Dota, split pushing/rat doto - and by extension the heroes that enable it, such as Nature's Profit, Naga or AM - can be a bitch to play against, but as long as it's only one of many viable strategies and can be countered it's fine in my book. Sometimes you just have to get your hands dirty and buy the pink wards.
Lycan isn't fine though
That's actually precisely what I meant by "being forced to play differently than they're used to" mechanically/on a smaller scale, like how a lane plays out in practice and what you have to look out for momentarily (pink wards and more defensive positioning in this case). It's late and I kind of went off on a tangent there
Taking another example from Dota, split pushing/rat doto - and by extension the heroes that enable it, such as Nature's Profit, Naga or AM - can be a bitch to play against, but as long as it's only one of many viable strategies it's fine in my book. Sometimes you just have to get your hands dirty and buy the pink wards.
Lycan isn't fine though
Yah. I have no problem with NP but Terrorblade is a definite issue that needs nerfs, despite them both doing the same split pushing bullshit. The difference is one is op whereas the other is just different. That said, this complaining happens plenty in the Dota community too. Just look at all the people bitching about how Alliance won the TI3 grand finals game 5. Or 'Cancer Lancer'.
Like I said though, the riot guy didn't say this, just his words being interpreted by others that way so I'm not gonna pass judgement unless they explicitly said it.
this might be a little long but I liked this one from last year.
it's not necesarily the best of the best though; those usually have very little mistakes and super optimal play and, for me, aren't always the most fun to watch
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYbAHsag2Dg
the game has changed a lot though
Well yeah you're kinda right in that the (pro) meta typically gets stuck on one thing at the same time, like now almost everyone is doing the 4v0 fast push while two-three weeks ago the strategy was basically unheard of. The meta itself changes a lot but it typically is one dominant strategy at a time. When this strategy is the "best" way to play and get nerfed so other strategies can be played, a new "best" strategy is found very soon and becomes the flavor of the month.
I don't know, I can't really agree with Evelynn (the invis champ) being a problem. The problem (in my opinion) is rather some champs (say Renekton) that win lane against just about anyone and forces the opponents into only picking champs that can deal with him decently enough. Since the Renekton is never a bad pick he is unhealthy for the game, so to speak, there is not really a nice counterplay against him. Mostly an example and it's not exactly this simple in practice, but I think you get the jist of it.
So basically they need to make it so he can countered. I realize specifics aren't always hugely useful but theorycrafting is fun so could you explain his skillset and why it is so good for top lane? Bearing in mind I know very little about League. I wanna see what I'd do to nerf him.
Definitely, there's always going to be bitching.
I'd rather they didn't sugarcoat it with pointless terms like toxic, anti-fun or healthy gameplay so we didn't have to interpret this much in the first place. Icefrog just laying down the law with straight patchnotes is cool because he absolutely knows what he's doing, but in terms of general communication in between patches Valve could definitely learn from Riot. Though we all know that's not happening unless people start spamming Obama's FB.
TharpDaddy
Member
Not necessarily, it means that a champion is so strong that they are keeping the meta rigid. Renekton being strong limits the viable picks in the top lane, so you only get tanky bruisers top. If other picks were more viable, it means there would be more strategies and team comps that would played, rather than fighting over 3 picks. Riot is attempting to buff other champions in order to introduce more variety into the meta. They've already succeeded a bit in the jungle. You can now play a farm heavy jungler with feral flare, or a gank heavy jungler with spirit items. There is no catalyst that will change the top lane meta until Riot does something. Their options are nerf Renekton, which will not do much good, or buff others so they can work as well. I prefer the 2nd option.
Keep in mind the Evelyn example was years ago. They took away her stun before competitive league was anything big. Evelyn at the moment requires you buy pink wards, but she is now in a state where you have opportunities to outplay her and win. In League's mechanics a perma stealth champion who can stun for a pretty long time and do lots of damage is very broken. She flat out was not fun to play against. Even if you think it was a bad idea, i have played against both and i am happy old Eve no longer exists. She offered nothing to the game, and new Eve is much better.
Ikr. My fave hero behind PA and he's trash. Though the Tranquils change was a big thing too.
I blame Technomancer
TharpDaddy
Member
My favorite league hero is Viktor, and he's considered weak. It works to my advantage, people barely ever see him and forget how to fight him. I wreck face with him.
I'm really a fan of using the drafting system from dota 2 in lol, you see alot more variety in lineups.
Also, a bit disapointed about yesterday, friend got me to watch the lcs finales with him and the 3-0 stomp was pretty disappointing. I'd like there to be more comebacks mechanisms in lol. To me it seems the advantage in lol games slowly builds up akin to a snowball making it harder to comeback while the advantage in dota is more like a pingpong (sauce: the EG vs Alliance game linked in this thread).
Of course, it might look a tad hypocritical when DK stomped Empire 3-0 in dota yesterday, but apart from fanboys, I'm pretty sure no one enjoys seeing stomps late in a tournament.
Also, a bit disapointed about yesterday, friend got me to watch the lcs finales with him and the 3-0 stomp was pretty disappointing. I'd like there to be more comebacks mechanisms in lol. To me it seems the advantage in lol games slowly builds up akin to a snowball making it harder to comeback while the advantage in dota is more like a pingpong (sauce: the EG vs Alliance game linked in this thread).
Of course, it might look a tad hypocritical when DK stomped Empire 3-0 in dota yesterday, but apart from fanboys, I'm pretty sure no one enjoys seeing stomps late in a tournament.
The snowball is way way less than it used to be. All it takes is one good teamfight and you can turn the game around since there's no buyback.
The Riot post essentially said that just nerfing renekton (which has been recently done) is not enough as there are other poorly designed champs that fulfill nearly the same role and will take his place, so they're considering buffing underused well designed champs.
I'll post his kit description though since you asked, mostly cut and pasted from the wiki:
First of all Renektion is manaless, only gated by cooldowns. He gains Fury when he attacks an enemy with rightclicks or abilities, and can consume Fury to empower abilities. I leave the numbers outside of this since they have to be in relation to other stuff.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Oy! Its not my fault the only way to beat him was either manage to draft three pushers and end before 30 minutes or three gankers/stunners and spend all of your time murdering him
please, dont you pick terrorblade or something
get out of here with that hypocrisy
also - wat @ the renekton talk. riot didnt say he was op or toxic - except for ppl in here. infact, hes already been pushed out of the meta. its not a numbers problem, its a meta problem that has already been fixed. *shrug*
Lmao that's exactly what we were saying. If a hero needs a specific counter that should be okay, just fucking do it. He didn't need that much in any case.
Don't hide from your sins.
Personally I see buybacks as an anti-stomp mechanism since you can recover from a disastrous initiation from the enemy team which limits the damage they can do so you lose one tower instead of 2 for example.
Not like buyback is without negatives though, losing gold to buyback, not being able to get last hits for the period you would have been dead, having the remaining time added to your next death's timer.
And apart from a few exceptions, unless you were near their bases or tower the respawned hero won't be able to quickly help his team.
I remember my best game of Dota, lasted around 70 minutes, they had taken down all our towers and raxes, creeps had taken down our ancient to 100hp and we had grabbed our first tower at 36 minutes. Everyone was 6-slotted and the other team had managed to take down our 3 carries, me (Doom), Silencer and Anti-mage on separate encounters and we had around 98s of respawn time, we prevented our loss buy buying back, but if we died again it was GG.
Our silencer got a divine because it was GG either way and we managed to teamwipe them and barrel down through mid and take down their t2, 3, 4 and ancient. We would have lost 10 minutes earlier if not for well placed buy backs opposite to our opponents who just spammed them so they weren't up to save them.
Boken pls
Rat Dota is best Dota
barely play tb anywya you copper tier scrub
It's not like Dota doesn't go through these phases as well. I just don't like how Riot always seems afraid of drastically changing things up since they've settled for the core meta being bruiser top, AP (sometimes AD can be viable here if I'm not mistaken?) mid, AD+support and an obligatory jungler. I'd imagine you'll never see an equivalent of Dota's 6.79 version in LoL, in which a crazy amount of mechanics untouched for years were tinkered with and ultimately led to one of the most varied and open Dota metas ever.
So all in all the "bullies" are just straight-up op champs, got it. Buffing other champs sounds reasonable in theory, can't disagree there.
I actually remember Evelynn being totally ridiculous back in the day, her kit was just too impactful compared to the rest of the roster.
Nope no rapier or cheese.
Such an enormous fun transfer from one team to another is inacceptable
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Eh, Lancer crossed the line too far into needing a specific drafting strategy for my tastes, which is fine if you're playing CM, but if the enemy team grabs him last in All Pick or you get screwed over by the Random Draft pool or whatever he was just fucking hard to deal with.
Aww. Rapier games are amazing to be in. It just disintegrates all tactics into 'GET THE FUCKING RAPIER PICK IT UP PICK IT UP'.
Schweinehund
Member
any moba with gated heroes should do what HoTS does and let you test drive the heroes.
Well isn't that second bit what you're supposed to do to hard farming carries in general?
SteveWinwood
Member
nice heal nerf riot
TharpDaddy
Member
I'm using Renekton as an example since Riot straight up mentioned him in the patch notes about what they see as the face of the problem.