Introduction to MOBAs

TharpDaddy said:
Dota folks, what do you think about Riot's LCS format? Would it be something you would be interested in Valve going for?
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Mixed opinion.

LCS reminds me of what Vince McMahon did to rasslin in the 80s where he put all the local promotions out of business with the WWF. It made wrestling much bigger, but Vince was the only game in town (until WCW, but that's another story).

LCS has its good points, (static schedule, storylines can be built) but it has its problems (spring split is meaningless, games can be worthless after the standings have been set, the western scene feels like a good ol boys club with the older teams always having a top spot).

On the other hand, Dota's scene desperately needs some stability. There are too many tournaments nowadays. Alliance is playing Na'Vi today? I'll just catch their next game in a few days. I don't even pay attention to Dota any more outside of LAN events.

To be honest, I really don't think the regular season format works well for esports though. I'd rather see it be like tennis or golf where there are major LAN events every 2-3 months that give seeding points for the world championships.

OGN probably has the best implementation of what I'm dreaming up.

Boken said:
the passive aggressive sarcastic rhetoric coming from the dota shitters has risen to new highs overnight.

like seriously, this thread has gone downhill

its full of crap and shitposting

'oh yeah its not dota, it sucks'
'getting ganked is antifun'
'oh in dota we have 4 wards yeah damn, 15 wards that must be so shit'
'hey if you like farming so much go play diablo 3'

repeating burden of knowledge and anti-fun like some kind of clever injoke and giving yourself pats on the pack. instead you just seem like shitpushers for distilling a page of discussion into one phrase in an age where the discussion is 4 years old and pretending its still relevant.

einbroach's commentary about homogenization is pretty sad too, considering he just played thresh, zed and yasuo. champions more recent than that post are. failing to look past text and see the actual results just makes anybody seem narrow minded, sorry.

making comments about a game you dont play like 'theres only 2 ways to gank' and 'ganking is really hard from the jungle' and my favourite is 'passive slow play'

-yeah, lol isnt dota. and it sounds incredibly disingenous when the only reasoning you can offer is that 'x works better because of dota reasons'. but worse is the stupid ass one liner comments that have littered this page and the last. im calling out granadier, haly and even iamblades on their shitposting.
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Pot meet kettle
 
Schweinehund said:
Rumor is a wc3editor like setup for Dota 2. I'm more interested in that than the game right now, so many good wc3 maps like Enfos.
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...if it ends up being that freeform then i will leave League for Dota. Warcraft 3's custom maps is some of the most fun i've ever had. The insane TDs, Angel Arena, etc. I've been wanting something to replace it ever since Starcraft 2's was shite.
 
Archie said:
Mixed opinion.

LCS reminds me of what Vince McMahon did to rasslin in the 80s where he put all the local promotions out of business with the WWF. It made wrestling much bigger, but Vince was the only game in town (until WCW, but that's another story).

LCS has its good points, (static schedule, storylines can be built) but it has its problems (spring split is meaningless, games can be worthless after the standings have been set, the western scene feels like a good ol boys club with the older teams always having a top spot).

On the other hand, Dota's scene desperately needs some stability. There are too many tournaments nowadays. Alliance is playing Na'Vi today? I'll just catch their next game in a few days. I don't even pay attention to Dota any more outside of LAN events.

To be honest, I really don't think the regular season format works well for esports though. I'd rather see it be like tennis or golf where there are major LAN events every 2-3 months that give seeding points for the world championships.

OGN probably has the best implementation of what I'm dreaming up.
Click to expand...
I was hoping that the many tournaments would encourage a larger b tier where the larger teams wouldn't bother with the small prize pools and cluttered schedules, but the small teams would get some stage time. I dunno how that's working for them.
 
SteveWinwood said:
I was hoping that the many tournaments would encourage a larger b tier where the larger teams wouldn't bother with the small prize pools and cluttered schedules, but the small teams would get some stage time. I dunno how that's working for them.
Click to expand...

If we're talking about League, then it's actually working decently. IEM one of the few that the big LCS teams go to. All the other tournaments are challenger teams who compete and are trying to work their way into the LCS eventually.
 
Boken said:
the passive aggressive sarcastic rhetoric coming from the dota shitters has risen to new highs overnight.

like seriously, this thread has gone downhill

its full of crap and shitposting

'oh yeah its not dota, it sucks'
'getting ganked is antifun'
'oh in dota we have 4 wards yeah damn, 15 wards that must be so shit'
'hey if you like farming so much go play diablo 3'

repeating burden of knowledge and anti-fun like some kind of clever injoke and giving yourself pats on the pack. instead you just seem like shitpushers for distilling a page of discussion into one phrase in an age where the discussion is 4 years old and pretending its still relevant.

einbroach's commentary about homogenization is pretty sad too, considering he just played thresh, zed and yasuo. champions more recent than that post are. failing to look past text and see the actual results just makes anybody seem narrow minded, sorry.

making comments about a game you dont play like 'theres only 2 ways to gank' and 'ganking is really hard from the jungle' and my favourite is 'passive slow play'

-yeah, lol isnt dota. and it sounds incredibly disingenous when the only reasoning you can offer is that 'x works better because of dota reasons'. but worse is the stupid ass one liner comments that have littered this page and the last. im calling out granadier, haly and even iamblades on their shitposting.
Click to expand...

http://hydra-media.cursecdn.com/dota2.gamepedia.com/4/4e/Wraith_fastres_02.mp3
 
Einbroch said:
Seeing the map like that, I'm surprised the map is so asymmetrical.
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Yeah, it was a bit jarring at first, but now I like it quite a bit. There's generally considered to be a slight advantage to Dire because they have easier access to the Roshan pit, but the asymmetry doesn't muck too much up
 
TharpDaddy said:
If we're talking about League, then it's actually working decently. IEM one of the few that the big LCS teams go to. All the other tournaments are challenger teams who compete and are trying to work their way into the LCS eventually.
Click to expand...
I was talking about dota actually!

I'm glad it sounds to be working for their system though. It's fun to root for the underdog.

And a system like that screams to me like teams getting locked into places they shouldn't be for top long and what not. General bureaucracy.
 
The Technomancer said:
Yeah, it was a bit jarring at first, but now I like it quite a bit. There's generally considered to be a slight advantage to Dire because they have easier access to the Roshan pit, but the asymmetry doesn't muck too much up
Click to expand...

Actually, it seems like Radiant has the early game advantage(due to neutrals) and Dire has the late game advantage(Roshan).
 
TharpDaddy said:
Dota folks, what do you think about Riot's LCS format? Would it be something you would be interested in Valve going for?
Click to expand...

To be honest, I feel its both a really good idea and also the most likely thing to cause LoL to lose their #1 eSport spot. Its pretty nice to have teams on a salary and playing regular games on a constant schedule, but making teams have exclusivity clauses with Riot killed all third party tournaments.

For Dota, there is a very large and healthy tournament scene going on. You have several organizations trying different formats and prize pools, all trying to attract both players and viewer. Valve giving tournaments money from ticket sales helps run a bunch of amateur leagues which is important in the long term, and there are tournaments the run the full scope of "These people have played like 2 dozen games and are drunk" to "Best NA VS Best of China Right here Right now in Ukraine", and several of them will do things like "And now to pit this up and coming Team vs the winners of the International, good luck boys!" Having the yearly international also encourage teams to try and be the best if only to win that once a year super huge prize (And these days, there is enough smaller cup that as long as you can place in enough you can make a decent living)

I just really think Dota has the heather tournament scene because right now its more organic and actually supported by the community, where League's is basically 'to big to fail' and the only contest around. I think the best move would be for Riot to let teams compete in other organizer's events while keeping their current LCS.

Leezard said:
I wonder how many professional doto games have been determined by rng
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Enough. But I think RNG is likely for the best as a spectator sport, so it becomes a bit of knowing how to react to unforeseen circumstances instead of just perfect play.
 
Thanks for the answers to my League ward questions.

SteveWinwood said:
I was hoping that the many tournaments would encourage a larger b tier where the larger teams wouldn't bother with the small prize pools and cluttered schedules, but the small teams would get some stage time. I dunno how that's working for them.
Click to expand...

As a fan of a B team I don't think the scene is very accommodating atm, but it is a lot easier to see my team play now than a couple of months ago.

I don't think it makes sense (economically) atm for A teams to eschew any competition that pays in 4 figures (USD) or higher unless it's just impossible from a scheduling perspective. Hell XBOCT even stands in on Next.Kz he has so much free time.
 
I don't like it at all. It's like they're just grinding out content (ohohohoho) to make sure casual players have a reliable stream of stuff to watch to maintain interest.

8 teams, round robin, 4 Bo1s, is 256 games to do what, knock out a total of two teams? Talk about a huge waste of time.

There's no story behind it, no newcomers, or persistent underdogs, new teams that were formed in the six months, old teams that fell off the grid entirely. Same 8 teams, round and round we go. That you know ahead of time at least 6 of the initial 8 teams will reach the Championship robs the games of a lot of tension. How much is there on the line, really, when each team has 32 games to play and won't even get knocked out unless their score is abysmal?

Compare that with DOTA2's regular tournaments, each with their prize pools, where you can see clearly what's on the line every game of every match for every tournament. Sometimes it's a small prize pool like 5k to 10k, sometimes it reaches the 6 digits, and once, every year, the International, where everything comes to a head.

EE-sama said:
That's why I told RTZ on skype that we lost G1 to DK at MLG as well then typed 2-1 MLG in all chat. I didn't have any ill intentions towards DK, I didn't do it to taunt them either,
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Cross tournament rivals, old scores to settle, birth of new grudges, all that is just totally absent from the Riot LCS.
 
Dendi listens to Queens of the Stone Age.

Do any LoL streamers have good taste in music?

Drkirby said:
To be honest, I feel its both a really good idea and also the most likely thing to cause LoL to lose their #1 eSport spot. Its pretty nice to have teams on a salary and playing regular games on a constant schedule, but making teams have exclusivity clauses with Riot killed all third party tournaments.

For Dota, there is a very large and healthy tournament scene going on. You have several organizations trying different formats and prize pools, all trying to attract both players and viewer. Valve giving tournaments money from ticket sales helps run a bunch of amateur leagues which is important in the long term, and there are tournaments the run the full scope of "These people have played like 2 dozen games and are drunk" to "Best NA VS Best of China Right here Right now in Ukraine", and several of them will do things like "And now to pit this up and coming Team vs the winners of the International, good luck boys!" Having the yearly international also encourage teams to try and be the best if only to win that once a year super huge prize (And these days, there is enough smaller cup that as long as you can place in enough you can make a decent living)

I just really think Dota has the heather tournament scene because right now its more organic and actually supported by the community, where League's is basically 'to big to fail' and the only contest around. I think the best move would be for Riot to let teams compete in other organizer's events while keeping their current LCS.



Enough. But I think RNG is likely for the best as a spectator sport, so it becomes a bit of knowing how to react to unforeseen circumstances instead of just perfect play.
Click to expand...

I don't think Dota's scene is particularly healthy outside of Na'Vi, Alliance and the Chinese teams. Everyone else seems to be fighting for scraps and hardly anybody can make playing the game a career.

On the other hand, I'm not too keen on Riot giving players a salary either. I think winnings and sponsorships should fuel teams.

The entire esports scene is kind of a clusterfuck right now, but that's primarily due to how immature it is.
 
TharpDaddy said:
They're adding a custom game mode? How extensive are we talking, full on Warcraft 3 style?
Click to expand...

We really have no clue. At this point I'm hoping we aren't locked down to teams of 5. Like, can I make it 6v6? Can I have 10 people vs AI? 24 player servers are one thing, but really limited team sizes would be really annoying IMO.
 
I played League for the first time in months and am not playing again until Yi with feral flare is nerfed. That is more broken than anything in Dota and should be hotfixed.

When something is so blatant in Dota at least you can buy a BKB/Ghost Scepter/Euls/Scythe/Force, etc.

You literally have no options in LoL
 
dave is ok said:
I played League for the first time in months and am not playing again until Yi with feral flare is nerfed. That is more broken than anything in Dota and should be hotfixed.

When something is so blatant in Dota at least you can buy a BKB/Ghost Scepter/Euls/Scythe/Force, etc.

You literally have no options in LoL
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Run Exhaust. Buy Randuins/Thornmail/etc.
 
I think LCS pushed league to a point of relevancy outside of regular mlg420 style tournaments, and was a really interesting response to the growing popularity of the game. Remember that right before LCS came around you had teams refusing to participate in tournaments because they could literally make more money streaming.

LCS is a pretty fucking bold move that gives Riot a form of control that's kind of outrageous. They can fine people for being dicks outside of tournaments, they can put clauses that ask you not to stream other games while you are in LCS, they have a weekly LAN studio environment with a live audience, etc. The wrestling analogy is pretty good; wrestling -> TV is kind of what's going on here, though it's more of a case of Riot jumping on personalities emerging from streamers.

If dota were to try this, it would be in direct competition with LCS I think. atm, I believe the two games still kinda air tournaments at different times courtesy style.

also if boken was banned for that post that's really dumb, he's just being hunnest like future
 
dave is ok said:
I played League for the first time in months and am not playing again until Yi with feral flare is nerfed. That is more broken than anything in Dota and should be hotfixed.

When something is so blatant in Dota at least you can buy a BKB/Ghost Scepter/Euls/Scythe/Force, etc.

You literally have no options in LoL
Click to expand...

Ban Yi, problem solved.
 
Archie said:
Dendi listens to Queens of the Stone Age.

Do any LoL streamers have good taste in music?



I don't think Dota's scene is particularly healthy outside of Na'Vi, Alliance and the Chinese teams. Everyone else seems to be fighting for scraps and hardly anybody can make playing the game a career.

On the other hand, I'm not too keen on Riot giving players a salary either. I think winnings and sponsorships should fuel teams.

The entire esports scene is kind of a clusterfuck right now, but that's primarily due to how immature it is.
Click to expand...

EG and Empire are doing well enough these days. Fnatic and C9 are probs making enough to get by too. Everyone below that I agree though.
 
dota question
so in league people usually get items that are good in a lot of ways for their champs and there are a lot less utility items a la hex or euls; a lot of situational buying has to do with timing of items and thinking do I need mr or armor

but in dota, say a euls or hex would be mighty good for your team. however you are not an int hero so you aren't like making the most of the stats. do you still get one of these items if you arent using their attributes as well as you could?

like when I was playing dota 1 I would never get a euls or hex on naix, I'd usually follow the same build (at the time armlet was really good, bkb was still good even though he had magic immunity built in, you know mostly strength shit)
 
Some items are bought for stats, some for actives. An int hero will gravitate toward int items but it's not unheard of for a carry or initiator to get a sheepstick, especially if they're ahead on farm.
 
I know you are probably thinking about particular initiators, but would someone like centuar or magnus get a hex (after blink ofc)?
 
Ursa getting Hex is a common example of valuing utility over stats. Int does nothing for him really but the active is super good for him as he can blow up one target.
 
Not to mention all heros can make use of stats in DOTA, may not be the best use.. but they can. While LoL you can have 100% wasted stats.
 
Ferrio said:
You should ward any enemy's jungle... don't see how that's good advice on beating Yi specifically.
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Its the standard "bad/joke" suggestion given to countering the fotm hero in dota when people say they are op, which is what I figured your "ban him" suggestion was (Since you can't ban Yi in low level unranked games silly).

Now see, it originated when Lycan was fotm back in 6.73c, he was able to farm the jungle very quickly and safely, and could come out in like 8-10 minutes with his core up, take roshan out, and then face roll the game. The common response to dealing with this was "just ward his jungle", but as you can imagine, against a semi-competent player this wouldn't do much (They could counter the wards, they could just go to your jungle, they could go in the lane instead, they could jungle slowly with what you didn't ward, they could kill you when you are trying to ward, he could just wait 5 minutes ect). Eventually Lycan was nerfed, and Drow became the new fotm. And since people like repeating memes rather then actually contributing to the conversation, people would give the same bad advice of "Just ward her jungle" about how to counter drow, despite the fact that she wasn't a jungle hero at all.

Oh yeah, I feel a key thing to point out is that if you place a ward in the spawn box of a jungle creep, the creeps won't spawn, so the idea was to block all the camps and starve out lycan.

mrw I had to write this up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ddp1pf_MB8
 
Centaur would probably go Blademail or heart

Magnus would go BKB, Battlefury -> Daedalus or Refresher

Hex is fine on those specific heroes, but it's also redundant as they already have AoE stuns.

You'd probably want hex on a hero that doesn't have any form of innate long, hard CC like Ursa or Phoenix.
 
Drkirby said:
Its the standard "bad/joke" suggestion given to countering the fotm hero in dota when people say they are op, which is what I figured your "ban him" suggestion was (Since you can't ban Yi in low level unranked games silly).

Now see, it originated when Lycan was fotm back in 6.73c, he was able to farm the jungle very quickly and safely, and could come out in like 8-10 minutes with his core up, take roshan out, and then face roll the game. The common response to dealing with this was "just ward his jungle", but as you can imagine, against a semi-competent player this wouldn't do much (They could counter the wards, they could just go to your jungle, they could go in the lane instead, ect). Eventually Lycan was nerfed, and Drow became the new fotm. And since people like repeating memes rather then actually contributing to the conversation, people would give the same bad advice of "Just ward her jungle" about how to counter drow, despite the fact that she wasn't a jungle hero at all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ddp1pf_MB8
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no way this was around in dota 111!!!! too

I think the league equivalent would be "don't let it get to late game", which was really popular when I started, usually about champs like nasus or jax
 
SteveWinwood said:
How so? I still don't understand how stats work in lol even though I've tried to read about it.
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Unlike dota, abilities scale in damage from stats. The two stats AP (ability power) and AD (attack damage).

If a character has has nothing but AD scaling skills, then any AP they get is 100% wasted... it does nothing more. The opposite is true with AP champions (though I guess AD increases their auto attack... so you get *some* use)

There's also manaless champions, so any mana items are a waste of that state.

Also skills are defined to being magic, physical damage and in the rare case true damage (regardless of what they scale off of). So if you get spell penetration when all your skills do physical damage... then there's 100% waste.
 
brian! said:
hex seems so expensive just to do that though
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The long disable allows him to stack up mad fury swipes and burst a hero. Though some go for Abyssal instead. AB gets you dat damage and disable that goes through bkb and a better build up with basher while sheep gives you a longer disable at a longer range.
 
Ferrio said:
Unlike dota, abilities scale in damage from stats. The two stats AP (ability power) and AD (attack damage).

If a character has has nothing but AD scaling skills, then any AP they get is 100% wasted... it does nothing more. The oppositeis true with AP champions (though I guess AD increases their auto attack... so you get *some* use)

There's also manaless champions, so any mana items are a waste of that state.
Click to expand...
Oh I thought there were more underlying stats that they didn't surface. So if you want health you just get a straight +hp item there is no such thing as strength into health? Interesting. And it's the same with defense right? Physical and magic resist?
 
he also liked to cheese baron with vlad's offering

yeah league stats are pretty linear, you buy hp for hp, armor for armor, atspd for atpsd, etc.
 
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