iPhone - Official Thread
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In the example you use, you're pasting to email, which doesn't operate in landscape mode, so it being horizontal doesn't make sense given the example provided. When vertical, his sausage fingers have nowhere to swipe if he has to use 3 of them. And what you're suggesting would require a manual or instructional video to show its function. I don't remember needing one of those to use any of the phone's other features, so it kinda proves my point that possible ways to get the feature functioning simply degrade the pick-up-and-go intuitive nature of the phone.giga said:
Because if they're SO good at their job at implementing something intuitively... they've had a year and a half, they'd have DONE IT by now if it was as simple as you guys suggest. Which only suggests that trying to implement it REDUCES the intuitive experience.Vyer said:
And you missed the part where I owned a Blackberry which you laud for having this feature. I used it a few times as a test, found it to be a completely wasted effort to copy-paste something and having it take a MINUTE to do something that I can do on a computer in less than 10 seconds, never used it again.
And as you see from what has been shown above, functional methods of getting this to work aren't as simple as you guys make them sound. As many of you have said, Apple is smart with its design decisions... what makes you think they weren't being smart about not including the feature?
krypt0nian
Banned
Terrell, don't bother replying to me anymore. You seem not to be able to handle anyone wanting features that you yourself do not find a use for.
There is no excuse for not implementing MMS support, cut and paste, voice dial and video recording. Every "dinosaur" phone I've had has done that for years.
Stop sucking Apple's cock. They can't feel a thing.
There is no excuse for not implementing MMS support, cut and paste, voice dial and video recording. Every "dinosaur" phone I've had has done that for years.
Stop sucking Apple's cock. They can't feel a thing.
You can still use that perpendicular swipe if you're in vertical mode.Terrell said:
There are plenty of features that average consumers don't figure out how to do without seeing a manual/video. My sister had no clue how to rearrange icons. Nor how to input character variations. Or that clicking top toolbar scrolls to the top of the page. Etc, etc.
Power users want copy and paste, then let them have copy and paste.
krypt0nian
Banned
Terrell said:
You almost burst into tears a few posts back. All other phones I've owned for years have had them. Save copy paste. But they weren't touch screens. No excuse now.
Fuck it. Live in your silly little no-fault-apple world. :lol
Don't like the requests for standard features? Don't fucking read them.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
I agree with your feature requests, but this statement is lol. By your own guidelines for posting, you shouldn't have ever replied to him because you didn't like what he was writing.krypt0nian said:
If she doesn't own the phone I could understand this, but if she does, there's no excuse for this when it outright tells you how as soon as you first use the phone with the firmware required for the feature.giga said:
There's still a usability issue for people with wider fingers. The fact that my father can operate the keyboard on this is a damn miracle (but the predictive dictionary sure helps). So to test that this solution was accessible to ALL users of the phone, I measured my father's fingers in relation to the phone's horizontal positioning and found that he only has about 1cm of maneuverability with his fingers to "swipe" with. In other words, the method you suggest for implementation is not accessible to all people who would potentially own this phone, even some "power users" who would want this feature as you suggest.
http://www.google.com/search?q=lose...s=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-aTerrell said:
^ That's two fingers. If he can't swipe three fingers, then I'm sorry.
Terrell said:
You know, this little discussion is interesting and all, but this still doesn't mean anything regarding cut and paste. There should be SOME way to implement it (and like I said other programs have done it with various gestures). Sure, if your Dad can't manage it doesn't mean it should be a feature left off the phone - there are loads of features that are documented poorly enough that many people don't use them.
So it's OK to include features that people can't ever use when there's nothing wrong with their ability to function?mrkgoo said:
Oh, and I measured exactly. Just OVER 3/4 of an inch in width, just under 3/4 of an inch at the fingertip. But since you can't compress a knuckle or joint to squeeze your fingers together any tighter, that still puts us at just 1cm and a bit of room to perform a swipe. I have the new MacBook with multi-touch trackpad, if you want, in the interests of science, I can see if he can use the 3-finger function on it so that I can be sure I'm not talking bullshit.
Terrell said:
I'm not talking about everyone can't use. Just maybe everyone don't use. Nor am I particularly referring to such an implementation. I'm just saying cut and paste would be a great feature to have. I'm not talking about putting in a feature that noone can use.
And that any potential feature not being accessible by one person is not really a good case to not implement it - that there are loads of features that are already not being accessed by many users.
Lack of knowledge and physical inability in a perfectly ambulatory human being are two different things.mrkgoo said:
But my biggest problem here is everyone says "yeah, they should do copy-paste!" and then it's like.... OK, HOW? Has no one considered that Apple has looked into it and found that there were too many obstacles for inclusion? I mean, this isn't like the landscape mode for email and SMS where we already see it implemented in other areas of the OS and know it can be done, this is something that isn't present in any form, and instead of merely saying it should be there, no one's asking WHY it's not there, and when I look at it, I see user barriers and logistics problems. I'm happy to be proven wrong with an implementation that works for any potential user, but I simply haven't heard of one yet. And given that Apple's had a year and a half to come up with one and is still drawing a blank, even after telling people that they are wanting to implement it... I mean, really, what does that say to the rest of you?
MMS, y'know, I don't get it, but I suppose I can just write it off as something that isn't for me or anyone I know.
Terrell said:
I have asked why, and it's NOT because Apple's drawing a blank. Do you seriously think that with all their UI guru inhouse, that they are not able to come up with a satisfactory way of implementing cut-and-paste? I'm not saying it's easy, but this is Apple - if anyone can do it, they can. Just because they haven't done so, doesn't meant they have tried and failed - they most likely haven't done so because they don't consider it all that important.
How about this: click and drag to highlight when you're in edit mode, and have it automatically copy OR click and drag, and when you get to the end, you hold it in place and a contextual menu pops up. Heck, before I was shortcutting copy and paste, this was how I did every thing. then when you get to where you want it to paste to, simply click and hold again. (edit: yes, tap and hold is the magnifying glass, but it can do both things - look around to place cursor, then tap and hold again).
Simple, surely effective.
Or this: double tap and drag to highlight and double tap to finish - Heck, this is how it's done on laptops when you have tap to click activated. Then click and hold for said contextual menu (for example, if you click and hold an item on the Mac OS X dock, you get the same menu as if you right click).
Both of these will be doable, and not to difficult for users to grasp. It's not that Apple CAN'T do this, but that they simply haven't (who actually knows if they WANT to or not).
of the various postulated scenarios, i'm fond of the double tap and hold maneuver to enable "copy" mode and then bring up the magnifying lens on the text.
select what you want y dragging the finger then release.
go to new program, double tap and hold again, then the clipboard pops up and you select the text snippet.
now, in this scenario, there's already a problem: how does the system know when you want to start copying or paste an item (bring up clipboard window"?
perhaps the double tap and hold needs to always bring up the clipboard and there's a button to begin selecting text to copy. but that removes the elegance of double tapping and using the existing loupe with an extra couple steps.
it's not an easy UI problem with no keyboard or on screen buttons.
perhaps a two finger hold over text? or two finger double tap nd hold? how complicated can we make this?
select what you want y dragging the finger then release.
go to new program, double tap and hold again, then the clipboard pops up and you select the text snippet.
now, in this scenario, there's already a problem: how does the system know when you want to start copying or paste an item (bring up clipboard window"?
perhaps the double tap and hold needs to always bring up the clipboard and there's a button to begin selecting text to copy. but that removes the elegance of double tapping and using the existing loupe with an extra couple steps.
it's not an easy UI problem with no keyboard or on screen buttons.
perhaps a two finger hold over text? or two finger double tap nd hold? how complicated can we make this?
LCfiner said:of the various postulated scenarios, i'm fond of the double tap and hold maneuver to enable "copy" mode and then bring up the magnifying lens on the text.
select what you want y dragging the finger then release.
go to new program, double tap and hold again, then the clipboard pops up and you select the text snippet.
now, in this scenario, there's already a problem: how does the system know when you want to start copying or paste an item (bring up clipboard window"?
perhaps the double tap and hold needs to always bring up the clipboard and there's a button to begin selecting text to copy. but that removes the elegance of double tapping and using the existing loupe with an extra couple steps.
it's not an easy UI problem with no keyboard or on screen buttons.
perhaps a two finger hold over text? or two finger double tap nd hold? how complicated can we make this?
MagicPad works just fine and there's no reason it couldn't work between apps either. Just add copy & paste buttons to the virtual keyboard. Solved.
LCfiner said:of the various postulated scenarios, i'm fond of the double tap and hold maneuver to enable "copy" mode and then bring up the magnifying lens on the text.
select what you want y dragging the finger then release.
go to new program, double tap and hold again, then the clipboard pops up and you select the text snippet.
now, in this scenario, there's already a problem: how does the system know when you want to start copying or paste an item (bring up clipboard window"?
perhaps the double tap and hold needs to always bring up the clipboard and there's a button to begin selecting text to copy. but that removes the elegance of double tapping and using the existing loupe with an extra couple steps.
it's not an easy UI problem with no keyboard or on screen buttons.
perhaps a two finger hold over text? or two finger double tap nd hold? how complicated can we make this?
Anyone thinking it's difficult to do just needs to look to OSX. Activate tap to click and see how it handles highlighting text. This part is easy. The question is how to bring up a contextual menu (like when you tap and hold to bring up one on the dock icons) when this feature is reserved for the magnifying glass? Well, you could always lengthen the amount you need to hold beyond that of the magnifying glass. Again, this is Apple - it's probably not as hard as you would think to come up with solutions.
note: one way Mac os x has you click and holding to bring up contextual menus is to double tap and hold.
Juice said:
how do you invoke a keyboard within safari (for example) when there's no form field to fill in?
they'd have to add another on screen prompt for that. something within the bottom bar.
and then every other app that handles text or attachments would need that.
i am not saying it's impossible. i'm just saying there's still an extra layer involved in the UI.
LCfiner said:
This is true. The UI is tied up into navigation. But then, you could at least implement copy paste for just when the keyboard is up.
I agree, however, that you shouldn't start adding too many things to the navigation interface, because then it becomes a mess (such as double click holding to highlight text in the browser) - something NOT worth cut and paste.
It's a shame they've already set teh precedent to navigating on the iPhone. I navigate web pages on my MBP using two finger scroll - something I occasionally try to do on my iPhone.
mrkgoo said:
actually, i like this idea the best. i'm doing it right now on a trackpad. double tap to select text an then single tap to stop selection.
two finger tap brings up context menu.
the only issue that might exist with this method within Apple is that there seems to be an a active avoidance of anything that resembles a context menu within the iphone OS.
I'm sure your suggestion was brought up within the team (since it already exists on Macs) but someone said no due to the required existence of a context menu.
I haven't bothered to think about the ramifications for the whole iphone UI if right click actions exist, but perhaps it causes problems in other areas? maybe they decided it would make things too complicated?
my gut reaction is that i would trade some simplicity for this functionality, but I don't make decisions at Apple
LCfiner said:actually, i like this idea the best. i'm doing it right now on a trackpad. double tap to select text an then single tap to stop selection.
two finger tap brings up context menu.
the only issue that might exist with this method within Apple is that there seems to be an a active avoidance of anything that resembles a context menu within the iphone OS.
I'm sure your suggestion was brought up within the team (since it already exists on Macs) but someone said no due to the required existence of a context menu.
I haven't bothered to think about the ramifications for the whole iphone UI if right click actions exist, but perhaps it causes problems in other areas? maybe they decided it would make things too complicated?
my gut reaction is that i would trade some simplicity for this functionality, but I don't make decisions at Apple
If you activate dragging, a contextual menu (atleast for dock items) can be initiated on a double-tap-hold. Such a contextual menu could simple be ONLY for cut/copy paste, and only when you are in keyboard mode, to maintain simplicity. It would also make it easier to clear out entire passages of text instead of holding down the backspace key.
Also note that you can also just release highlighted text, no need to tap at the end, that piece of text is simply selected. Not also that if you then double click and drag the highlighted text, the text moves - it's for click and drag copy-paste between windows on Mac OS X. On an iPhone you could have the text simply show an animation of it zooming off screen, or on to an on screen clipboard icon to show where it went (the clipboard) when you click and drag then release (like a sort of automatic copy). Picture this - highlight text as you do on Mac OS X. Then click and drag the highlighted text - copy of it appears to move (again like Mac OS X). But instead of dragging it to another window, you simply release it. Then the text zooms down, creating an icon near the keyboard (kind of like how deleting an email zooms down to the trash icon)- this icon represents your copied text . Click this icon when the cursor is somewhere to release the text back in. With all the animations, it's very apple like.
Yes, they surely would have thought of it and maybe they rejected it, simply because it didn't fit. But the point is there ARE solutions. Apple are simply not happy with them maybe because some don't work, but also maybe because they don't want to implement a solution in a particular way.
Terrell said:
And which Apple executive told you this? By that logic, you may as well conclude they can't figure out how to do MMS as well.
Terrell said:
We've addressed this:
The world isn't comprised of Terrell and his iPhone. BELIEVE ME, people that use/want copy and paste exist! OMG.
I do concede to Terrell, though, that the iPhone is very different from even a trackpad on a computer, and that these differences must be considered when implementing anything as 'basic' as copy-paste.
Think about why a magnifying glass appears when you simply move the cursor. It's because your finger obscures your view of the precise positioning. Therefore, navigation around a text field automatically has basic cursor moving obscured by a layer of UI - that is, how can you precisely place a cursor to highlight text when that gesture is taken by simply navigating?
For example, when moving in to double-tap (in my example above) to highlight text, how can you be sure you're going to double-tap the correct part, without the magnifying glass?
Of course there are always ways to solve such issues - in this case, maybe you once the cursor is placed, then double tapping near it will simply start selecting from the cursor, even if you;re off a little bit - if you;re off by too much, then the selecting starts there, much like how the touch zone for a key is dependent on the word you are spelling.
Think about why a magnifying glass appears when you simply move the cursor. It's because your finger obscures your view of the precise positioning. Therefore, navigation around a text field automatically has basic cursor moving obscured by a layer of UI - that is, how can you precisely place a cursor to highlight text when that gesture is taken by simply navigating?
For example, when moving in to double-tap (in my example above) to highlight text, how can you be sure you're going to double-tap the correct part, without the magnifying glass?
Of course there are always ways to solve such issues - in this case, maybe you once the cursor is placed, then double tapping near it will simply start selecting from the cursor, even if you;re off a little bit - if you;re off by too much, then the selecting starts there, much like how the touch zone for a key is dependent on the word you are spelling.
mrkgoo said:
I think id c/p does make it in the iphone OS it will work pretty similar to what you've described.
perhaps the "drag to nowhere" bit will be modified. maybe a target shows up? but i think that system could work. the animations are, as you say, very Apple and would likely be implemented if they added the functionality.
You were questioning the validity of my statements by suggesting that I can't comment because I haven't actually used copy-paste functions on other devices. And I stated otherwise and pointed it out to you while restating why I feel an objection to it and its currently unfeasible nature on the phone without some major sacrifices or alterations.Vyer said:
And thank you, REAL discussion about a feasible implementation. Somewhere in this discussion, I'm sure we could find something that would work well.
Terrell said:
Major sacrifices or alterations are not NECESSARILY made. But yes, as I conceded above, it's not as as simple as people seem to think. Still, it is entirely possible - read above. Remember, this is Apple - masters of the click-and-drag philosophy for nearly everything.
Guy Legend
Member
Question for anyone who knows. My brother is thinking of buying an iphone from a friend (extra unopened box) and would like to transfer his sim card from his current phone (at&t). Would it work without issue on an iphone or would there be extra fees, hassles, etc. beyond already being in a 2 year at&t plan?
Actually, the simplest solution to the problem is probably the most inelegant and non-universal: a button on the hardware itself to activate the editing process. Blackberry phones have buttons that have facilitated clicking and highlighting just as a computer has, and the Storm was able to implement this due to less navigational gestures already in place to compete with. But implementing this means a forced hardware update for one power-user feature, which I'm sure you would all groan about (and rightfully so, I guess).
There's a huge roadblock when trying to find an elegant and functional way to implement it across the entire OS, and the discussion really highlights the point... if it already takes up to a minute to do a simple copy-paste on a Blackberry that had functions to properly facilitate it, what can be done to make the process at LEAST on par with that? (though we would hope for something better)
There's a huge roadblock when trying to find an elegant and functional way to implement it across the entire OS, and the discussion really highlights the point... if it already takes up to a minute to do a simple copy-paste on a Blackberry that had functions to properly facilitate it, what can be done to make the process at LEAST on par with that? (though we would hope for something better)
I think he'll have to call AT&T to let them know so they can do some changes to implement Visual Voicemail and stuff for the account that is tied to his SIM.Guy Legend said:
Terrell said:
I still believe there are simple elegant ways.
My idea, I think, is very good, and very apple like. But of course, as you mention, it's limited to keyboard mode only. Any implementation to copy text, from say a browser would tend to modify the UI of that, which is already very elegant (ie, tap-hold, double-tap, and so on are already taken by the UI of the browser, and potentially, anything else).
Terrell said:
You said you used it 'a few times'. other than that you NEVER EVER EVER have needed it. So yes, I feel it's perfectly logical to question the validity.
But you know, in a lot of ways it doesn't matter. Your main point of contention was all about not needing the feature, how it was something YOU hardly used, etc. etc. All I (and others) are pointing out is that YES, people do want it and yes, people do use it. And that it is, in fact, a common feature on other phones for that reason.
You seem to not want to accept that.
In any case, switching to the implementation argument really doesn't help your point.
Tobor said:
:lol It's been a few pages at least, right?
Buttonbasher
Member
I recently upgraded my PC, and when I try to add content to my iPhone it asks me to format before any new content can be added. The question I have is does only erases the iPod portion? Sounds so stupid when I read it back, but "Do you want to erase this iPhone" just sounds strange to me.
Anyone?
Anyone?
It erases all content that it would sync unless you specifically tell it not to sync those portions (calendars, email, contacts, etc). Leaves the OS and stuff that doesn't sync alone, though (SMS and the camera roll should be fine, I think, but someone should confirm that).Buttonbasher said:
Buttonbasher
Member
If I "Transfer purchases from iPhone", that will back up my apps correct? Also would telling it to not sync Calander/Email/Contacts be done on the phone itself? Or iTunes?Terrell said:
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
Why don't you have the old backup of your phone content that iTunes saves every time you plug it in?
OMG, still dragging this on as some sort of personal argument... jeez, you use a couple personal pronouns and everyone thinks that you're speaking as though you think your opinion is the only one that matters.Vyer said:
Let me slow this down: I was using personal pronouns to show that my personal experience has led me to this conclusion, but I acknowledge that I'm not the only one who has ever come to this conclusion, either.
Put quite simply, would you want a feature that's such a pain in the ass to use that you don't even want to bother touching it? I mean, isn't its approachable usability of all its features the primary reason most of us bough the iPhone for in the first place? To get AWAY from that?
Uhhh... you upgraded your PC and had NONE of your iTunes data backed up? Am I hearing this right?Buttonbasher said:
Buttonbasher
Member
Well, I backed up my iTunes folder but looking through it I see 3 folders: Album Artwork, iTunes Music, Mobile Applications.Terrell said:
Google says that backup data would have been found:
C:\Documents and Settings\YOUR_USER_NAME\Application Data\Apple Computer\SyncServices\Local
I don't have that file.
It should be said that iTunes isn't really my default media player, so I don't know all the in's and out's on where things are and how things work. That said, I at least have something right? :|
Buttonbasher
Member
Email is through Gmail. Wouldn't be too big of a deal to get that back up and running. I don't have a ton of contacts, so I could copy that fuzz down. I have 1.75GB of music 2.18GB of video 631.3MB of apps. I can copy my photos from the camera to my desktop. My main concern is what happens to the apps, as weird as that might sound. I was just curious as to what all would be erased.Terrell said:
No matter what you do, once an app is removed from the phone, it dumps its settings. If you have the actual app itself in your hard drive, there's no need for any concern about transferring your purchases, you already have them locally anyways. So long as you got no SMS messages or anything of the sort, I suppose you're fine, but it is going to wipe the slate clean and then re-sync what's in iTunes right now.Buttonbasher said:
Buttonbasher
Member
Alright. Thanks for your help!Terrell said:
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