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[Mrmartel]

You're seriously going to equare the US as an equal to what Saudi Arabia does? What does nuking Japan have to do with anything? It was almost 70 years ago. It lead to their immediate surrender, and ended the war on the Pacific front and saved most of Japan from being invaded and millions of its civilians and soldiers from death. Any war analyst or historian will tell you that dropping the atom bombs on Japan, regardless of you how feel about nuclear weapons now, was the smartest move available. This revisionism in trying to portray the US as evil in World War II doesn't take into account Japan first committed a terrorist attack on Pearl Harbor that became an official declaration of War. It was also a brutal imperialistic and fascist regime that also invaded several neighboring countries and killed thousands and thousands of people. It also allied with Nazi Germany and fascist Italy.

Don't get me wrong, the US is absolutely hypocritical and is very aggressive as a superpower in ensuring it's objectives are met but what they do is different than from what Saudi Arabia does. They are very different countries. Saudi Arabia is one of the largest sponsors of terrorism in the world, it's a brutal regime where dissent is silenced, women cannot even leave their house without male consent, cannot drive. They literally lash you on the street if you speak negative about them or the country, behead you on roads etc.

Madness beating down shit posts with the truth. Excellent Post man

 

[RustyNails]

It will always get worse before it gets better, maintaining the status quo is not the solution. Expecting an instant modern democracy after a dictator falls is not realistic at all. Right now women aren't allowed to drive there, what are you gonna tell those women? "It could be worse?"

Um, yes? Like Libya? or Syria? At least they are not being raped and taken prisoners like in neighboring Iraq? It is easy for you to sit in the comfort of your chair and talk about expectations that follow the overthrowing a dictator. After all, its not women and children from your family that will bear the brunt of the scars. No one is saying Saudi kingdom is a beacon of human rights. But saying that if Sauds are gone there will be sunshine and rainbows within few years is hilarious. Imagine a group like ISIS or any of its offshoot getting the reins to the world's largest oil reserves as well as Mecca and Medina. The scenario is too depressing to even think about.

 

[Mrmartel]

Um, yes? Like Libya? or Syria? At least they are not being raped and taken prisoners like in neighboring Iraq? It is easy for you to sit in the comfort of your chair and talk about expectations that follow the overthrowing a dictator. After all, its not women and children from your family that will bear the brunt of the scars. No one is saying Saudi kingdom is a beacon of human rights. But saying that if Sauds are gone there will be sunshine and rainbows within few years is hilarious. Imagine a group like ISIS or any of its offshoot getting the reins to the world's largest oil reserves as well as Mecca and Medina. The scenario is too depressing to even think about.

I think the Saudi Monarchy will inevitably fail anyways. Radicals with eventually weld power within Saudi Arabia. Then the world will really see how primal/primitive the Saudi's can become.

 

[RustyNails]

I think the Saudi Monarchy will inevitably fail anyways. Radicals with eventually weld power within Saudi Arabia. Then the world will really see how primal/primitive the Saudi's can become.

Every monarchy falls. Its its nature. The power struggle is inevitable.

The question is should the sauds be toppled or should we enable such scenario? The answer is no. We should let them play it out. The Sauds, as every analyst tells you, are much more progressive than the country they rule and the clerics they accost. But that's not saying a lot. Recently I read an article saying that its the country's citizens that do not want women to drive, and the conservatives (who form bulk of the citizenry). King Abdullah, the previous king, started a trajectory of reform in the kingdom. 15 years ago women were not even allowed to run for Shoura Council (parliament). Now women make up a small percentage. Before that, I'm pretty sure the citizens didn't want the women to run for elections, but look at it now. Change comes slowly. Current King Salman is continuing the trajectory of reform at the pace the ultra conservative kingdom allows him to. Next in line Crown Prince Muqrin is also seen as a reformer. 3rd in line Deputy Crown Prince Prince Nayef actually studies abroad and is seen as liberal (again, by Saudi standards). We might not see Nayef assume power for at least the next 20 years, but change is definitely coming. All it takes is one open-minded king to open up elections more and slowly open up the country to more democratic processes.

 

[Despera]

Welcome to the era of the Saudi/Iranian cold war.

 

[ZiZ]

I think the Saudi Monarchy will inevitably fail anyways. Radicals with eventually weld power within Saudi Arabia. Then the world will really see how primal/primitive the Saudi's can become.

you can critique the rulers of Saudi Arabia all you want, but you just claimed that Saudi citizens are primal/primitive.

you sound like a great guy.

 

[Alo0oy]

Um, yes? Like Libya? or Syria? At least they are not being raped and taken prisoners like in neighboring Iraq? It is easy for you to sit in the comfort of your chair and talk about expectations that follow the overthrowing a dictator. After all, its not women and children from your family that will bear the brunt of the scars. No one is saying Saudi kingdom is a beacon of human rights. But saying that if Sauds are gone there will be sunshine and rainbows within few years is hilarious. Imagine a group like ISIS or any of its offshoot getting the reins to the world's largest oil reserves as well as Mecca and Medina. The scenario is too depressing to even think about.

Yeah, it's easy for me, considering the fact that I live in Bahrain & those Saudi troops killed a relative of mine when they invaded it.

The situation escalated because Saudi was allowed to to stay in power too long, it's only gonna get worse if they keep getting free passes.

 

[Mrmartel]

you can critique the rulers of Saudi Arabia all you want, but you just claimed that Saudi citizens are primal/primitive.

you sound like a great guy.

Rusty Nails argues that the citizenry of Saudi Arabia is more progressive than the elites that rule the country. A view that I have never seen reflected in any polls or statistics I've seen. Unless he can link some stories for me.

As far as I know, the monarchy is a "progressive" moderate force that is containing the extreme positions that the Majority believe.

So yes, if something were to happen to the kings rule, I believe the world would see the true underlining beliefs of the population. If true democracy ever took ahold of SA, it would be a landside for Theological Fascism. Doesn't matter if even 40% of the population is Moderate if the other 60% are hardline religious supremacists.

I say moderates when I don't even know what that is. It certainly can't be match with anything the West knows of the label. A Moderate in SA could be someone who is still for beheading apostates but not rape victims for what I know. Whenever I've met a Saudi self described moderate and when I do some digging on moderates in the public sphere, their personal beliefs usually would make even the furthest right European blush.

 

[Alo0oy]

Rusty Nails argues that the citizenry of Saudi Arabia is more progressive than the elites that rule the country. A view that I have never seen reflected in any polls or statistics I've seen. Unless he can link some stories for me.

As far as I know, the monarchy is a "progressive" moderate force that is containing the extreme positions that the Majority believe.

So yes, if something were to happen to the kings rule, I believe the world would see the true underlining beliefs of the population. If true democracy ever took ahold of SA, it would be a landside for Theological Fascism. Doesn't matter if even 40% of the population is Moderate if the other 60% are hardline religious supremacists.

I say moderates when I don't even know what that is. It certainly can't be match with anything the West knows of the label. A Moderate in SA could be someone who is still for beheading apostates but not rape victims for what I know. Whenever I've met a Saudi self described moderate and when I do some digging on moderates in the public sphere, their personal beliefs usually would make even the furthest right European blush.

Nobody wants beheadings, not even in Saudi, no statistic is gonna reflect that because citizens are scared as shit to say anything against the government unless they live outside of Saudi.

Here in Bahrain, in weekends Saudi men drive here to drink alcohol & watch movies (both banned in their country), & women let a driver drive them & then they dump the driver so they can drive & take off their head scarves. In weekends I see as many Saudi car plates as Bahraini. Saudi also *gasp* produce the most homemade porn in the middle east.

 

[RustyNails]

Rusty Nails argues that the citizenry of Saudi Arabia is more progressive than the elites that rule the country. A view that I have never seen reflected in any polls or statistics I've seen. Unless he can link some stories for me.

As far as I know, the monarchy is a "progressive" moderate force that is containing the extreme positions that the Majority believe.

So yes, if something were to happen to the kings rule, I believe the world would see the true underlining beliefs of the population. If true democracy ever took ahold of SA, it would be a landside for Theological Fascism. Doesn't matter if even 40% of the population is Moderate if the other 60% are hardline religious supremacists.

I say moderates when I don't even know what that is. It certainly can't be match with anything the West knows of the label. A Moderate in SA could be someone who is still for beheading apostates but not rape victims for what I know. Whenever I've met a Saudi self described moderate and when I do some digging on moderates in the public sphere, their personal beliefs usually would make even the furthest right European blush.

I said the opposite...the citizenry of KSA is more conservative than Sauds, who are seen progressive by Saudi standards.

 

[RustyNails]

Yeah, it's easy for me, considering the fact that I live in Bahrain & those Saudi troops killed a relative of mine when they invaded it.

The situation escalated because Saudi was allowed to to stay in power too long, it's only gonna get worse if they keep getting free passes.

I'm sorry for your loss, but arguing from an emotional point of view aka "The Sauds must go!" though understandable is extremely shortsighted, and will engulf the entire region in an no holds barred which will take down Shia majority Bahrain into the ground as well.

 

[Yamauchi]

The region is slowly fracturing and falling apart. This Iran - Saudi Arabia proxy war has already killed hundreds of thousands and appears to be just getting started.

At the present, despite Saudi Arabia's vast oil wealth and its backing from Western powers, Iran appears to be winning. Their proxies are now in power in Iraq and are in the process of taking control of Yemen. Assad has survived the rebellion in Syria and may eventually regain control of his country.

 

[Stinkles]

you can critique the rulers of Saudi Arabia all you want, but you just claimed that Saudi citizens are primal/primitive.

you sound like a great guy.

I guess those 17 Saudi citizens who flew planes into the world trade center were rich elites, right?

Don't pretend there isn't a problem on the Saudi street. The common people have been radicalized by the state and the church. Pakistan is headed in a similar direction and your assertion that the Sunni and Shia problem isn't religious in nature is embarrassing.

 

[Mrmartel]

I said the opposite...the citizenry of KSA is more conservative than Sauds, who are seen progressive by Saudi standards.

Miss read you then man

 

[ZiZ]

I guess those 17 Saudi citizens who flew planes into the world trade center were rich elites, right?

Don't pretend there isn't a problem on the Saudi street. The common people have been radicalized by the state and the church. Pakistan is headed in a similar direction and your assertion that the Sunni and Shia problem isn't religious in nature is embarrassing.

there is a problem, but those 17 only represent a tiny fraction of the millions who live there.

 

[Alo0oy]

I'm sorry for your loss, but arguing from an emotional point of view aka "The Sauds must go!" though understandable is extremely shortsighted, and will engulf the entire region in an no holds barred which will take down Shia majority Bahrain into the ground as well.

I'm not really being emotional, I never even met him, he was a distant relative, I was just pointing out that I'm talking from experience not from a distance.

& no, Saudi going down will only be a good thing, most of the fundies are being funded by Saudi, without their funding the middle east would be a far better place, & Saudi only holds those extremists in their own country, while they spread around the world killing & terrorizing people, without Saudi's funding all they can do is blow hot air.

 

[MisterFalcon]

there is a problem, but those 17 only represent a tiny fraction of the millions who live there.

Got any numbers to back that up ?

 

[Stinkles]

there is a problem, but those 17 only represent a tiny fraction of the millions who live there.

You made an equally general claim that Saudi common folk are not extremists. Something polling does not back up. What percentage of terrorist funding do Saudis represent?


And I am not picking on Saudi Arabia. The US has serious issues too, including some of our citizens belief systems. But Saudi Arabia is uniquely and disproportionately a negative force in the world. From pull to terror to the export of wahabiism. It's a tiny country ruining vast swathes of the world with external support (US included).

 

[ginger ninja]

I'm not really being emotional, I never even met him, he was a distant relative, I was just pointing out that I'm talking from experience not from a distance.

& no, Saudi going down will only be a good thing, most of the fundies are being funded by Saudi, without their funding the middle east would be a far better place, & Saudi only holds those extremists in their own country, while they spread around the world killing & terrorizing people, without Saudi's funding all they can do is blow hot air.

You are wrong on this one mate, as bad as Saudi kingdom is, shit would hit crazy proportions if thy regime fell. Imagine having an ISIS with even more religious legibility(because of mecca/madina), unlimited military resources amd the central position in the gulf. That bitch ass khalifa would have himself declared the prophetic mehdi and millions of morons will flock to him.

 

[Stereogatari]

The Saudis have been causing trouble in the region for centuries.

"Ottoman–Wahhabi War":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman–Wahhabi_War

 

[RustyNails]

I'm not really being emotional, I never even met him, he was a distant relative, I was just pointing out that I'm talking from experience not from a distance.

& no, Saudi going down will only be a good thing, most of the fundies are being funded by Saudi, without their funding the middle east would be a far better place, & Saudi only holds those extremists in their own country, while they spread around the world killing & terrorizing people, without Saudi's funding all they can do is blow hot air.

You're not getting my point...Fundies are being funded by Saudi citizenry, not the Saud royal family on the whole. The kingdom needs to start "teaching" its country the perils of extremism for the sake of crown's survival, and the Sauds know this. If Saudi kingdom goes down, the alternative is not going to be a Swiss Democracy. It's going to be something far more apocalyptic. Last time a rebellion happened in Saudi Arabia, the rebel leader took the Grand Mosque in Mecca hostage, killing the hajj pilgrims around the Kaaba and held out claiming to be a Mehdi.

 

[Jason's Ultimatum]

Nothing new about Saudi Arabia sticking their noses in other country's business. They launched airstrikes against the Houthis in Yemen, displacing many Houthis in camps.

 

[Alo0oy]

You are wrong on this one mate, as bad as Saudi kingdom is, shit would hit crazy proportions if thy regime fell. Imagine having an ISIS with even more religious legibility(because of mecca/madina), unlimited military resources amd the central position in the gulf. That bitch ass khalifa would have himself declared the prophetic mehdi and millions of morons will flock to him.

You're assuming that an organization like the ISIS would take control, which is a massive assumption, the only reason thr ISIS even exists now is because they were partially funded by Saudi, & that's the case with every single terrorist organization, the vast majority of people in the middle east don't give a shit about war or conquest, they just want to live their lives.

Just go back ~50 years, terrorist organizations in the middle east were non-existent, & the entire middle east was divided as protectorates, & when the west left those countries to their independence they left brutal dictators in their place (this isn't west blaming, just refreshing history here), & not long after they left, Saudi started spreading their extreme views on religion everywhere in the middle easy, shortly thereafter they started funding them.

So you see, there would be no terrorist organizations without Saudi funding.

 

[RoadHazard]

I'm glad we (Sweden) broke our weapons trade agreement with SA. We will lose a lot of money - billions - for it, but fuck that country.

 

[Oppo]

You are wrong on this one mate, as bad as Saudi kingdom is, shit would hit crazy proportions if thy regime fell. Imagine having an ISIS with even more religious legibility(because of mecca/madina), unlimited military resources amd the central position in the gulf. That bitch ass khalifa would have himself declared the prophetic mehdi and millions of morons will flock to him.

I dunno. That sounds like the current Saudi regime to me.

Like, gods forbid we should have some religious fundamentalists with an unlimited budget in charge of KSA... OH WAIT.

 

[Mrmartel]

You're assuming that an organization like the ISIS would take control, which is a massive assumption, the only reason thr ISIS even exists now is because they were partially funded by Saudi, & that's the case with every single terrorist organization, the vast majority of people in the middle east don't give a shit about war or conquest, they just want to live their lives.

Just go back ~50 years, terrorist organizations in the middle east were non-existent, & the entire middle east was divided as protectorates, & when the west left those countries to their independence they left brutal dictators in their place (this isn't west blaming, just refreshing history here), & not long after they left, Saudi started spreading their extreme views on religion everywhere in the middle easy, shortly thereafter they started funding them.

So you see, there would be no terrorist organizations without Saudi funding.

This could be one case were that assumption is a hopeful one. The citizens of Saudi Arabia unfettered from the restraints that the monarchy puts on them, would be an ISIS with weapons, scientists, oil reserves, professional military and have control of the most holiest sites of Islam.

ISIS is a known disgusting entity. But the chance of an unrestrained Saudi population is a Nightmare scenario

 

[RustyNails]

I dunno. That sounds like the current Saudi regime to me.

Like, gods forbid we should have some religious fundamentalists with an unlimited budget in charge of KSA... OH WAIT.

There's a huge difference. It's like a Republican government versus a David Koresh government. The monarchy is vested in the survival of the kingdom and the country as it currently does, whereas ISIS wants to burn everything to the ground and start their "pure" Islamic State from the ashes. The monarchy understands politics, and is making attempts at reforms and transparency:

King Abdullah has implemented many reform measures. He has re-shuffled the Ministry of Education's leadership in February 2009 by bringing in his pro-reform son-in-law, Faisal bin Abdullah, as the new minister. He also appointed Nora Al Fayez, a U.S.-educated former teacher, as deputy education minister in charge of a new department for female students.[35]

He realized a top-to-bottom restructuring of the country's courts to introduce, among other things, review of judicial decisions and more professional training for Shari'a judges. He developed a new investment promotion agency to overhaul the once-convoluted process of starting a business in Saudi Arabia. He created a regulatory body for capital markets. He has promoted the construction of the King Abdullah University for Science and Technology (the country's new flagship and controversially co-ed institution for advanced scientific research). He invested in educating the workforce for future jobs. The Saudi government is also encouraging the development of non-hydrocarbon sectors in which the Kingdom has a comparative advantage, including mining, solar energy, and religious tourism. The Kingdom's 2010 budget reflected these priorities—about 25 percent was devoted to education alone—and amounts to a significant economic stimulus package.[33][36]

In July 2012, Saudi Arabia announced that it would allow its women athletes to compete in the Olympics for the first time and that the country's Olympic Committee would "oversee participation of women athletes who can qualify". The decision ended speculation that the entire Saudi team might have been disqualified on grounds of gender discrimination. The public participation of women in sport is still fiercely opposed by many Saudi religious conservatives. There is almost no public tradition of women participating in sport in the country. Saudi officials said that, if successful in qualifying, female competitors would be dressed "to preserve their dignity".[45] On 11 January 2013, King Abdullah appointed thirty women to the Consultative Assembly or Shura Council and modified the related law to mandate that no less than 20 percent of 150 members would be women.[46]

In August 2013, the Saudi cabinet approved a law making domestic violence a criminal offence for the first time. The law calls for a punishment of up to a year in prison and a fine of up to 50,000 riyals (€11.500/US$13,000).[47] The maximum punishments can be doubled for repeat offenders. The law criminalizes psychological and sexual abuse, as well as physical abuse. It also includes a provision obliging employees to report instances of abuse in the workplace to their employer.[48] The move followed a Twitter campaign. The new laws were welcomed by Saudi women's rights activists, although some expressed concerns that the law could not be implemented successfully without new training for the judiciary, and that the tradition of male guardianship would remain an obstacle to prosecutions.[47]

Do you think that ISIS will continue this pace of reforms? On the contrary, they will undo everything in that quote. They will bomb the Science and Technology University and build a madrassa in it's place. This is what people don't get. The Sauds are invested in making their country work, and understand that liberal reforms are needed for that. They are also religious, and live in an extremely conservative society. They thread the needle very carefully.

 

[Stinkles]

There's a huge difference. It's like a Republican government versus a David Koresh government. The monarchy is vested in the survival of the kingdom and the country as it currently does, whereas ISIS wants to burn everything to the ground and start their "pure" Islamic State from the ashes. The monarchy understands politics, and is making attempts at reforms and transparency:

Do you think that ISIS will continue this pace of reforms? On the contrary, they will undo everything in that quote. They will bomb the Science and Technology University and build a madrassa in it's place. This is what people don't get. The Sauds are invested in making their country work, and understand that liberal reforms are needed for that. They are also religious, and live in an extremely conservative society. They thread the needle very carefully.

You're right, but they achieve this balance with oil money on one scale and virulent extremism on the other. The Saudis exist by exploiting their unique claim to being the stewards of Islam and its holiest sites, demonizing Shia neighbors and controlling world energy prices. It's a terrible and unstable balance and when it fails, and it will, the world will suffer. The best we can hope for is an energy revolution so that we can ignore Saudi Arabia and let the conflict shrink to local historical hatreds.

They're is no good endgame.

 

[SilentxS3ud]

You guys talk about Saudi Arabia like this as if your countries have never done anything bad/worse at all. History says a lot. I don't have anything to add the OP.

 

[Mrmartel]

You guys talk about Saudi Arabia like this as if your countries have never done anything bad/worse at all. History says a lot. I don't have anything to add the OP.

I feel comfortable that Canada has a relativity clean historical record. So yes I will judge Saudi Arabia with Impunity. I would even if I was an American. Read Madness's post again, he concedes on America's faults but drives home why Saudi Arabia is a horrible place.

In fact it's the biggest trolling "ally" the USA has ever had. I don't know of a country that has ever undermined an "Ally" in history as much as SA has to the USA.

It's such a joke now, that I'm hoping that the Elites in Washington finally wake up and realize that Russia, China, Iran and so forth don't hold a candle to the shit SA feeds to them on a regular basis and the damages it causes to their national interests daily.

 

[Alo0oy]

This could be one case were that assumption is a hopeful one. The citizens of Saudi Arabia unfettered from the restraints that the monarchy puts on them, would be an ISIS with weapons, scientists, oil reserves, professional military and have control of the most holiest sites of Islam.

ISIS is a known disgusting entity. But the chance of an unrestrained Saudi population is a Nightmare scenario

You really have never been to the middle east, have you? The people actually living there have more in common with the average American/European than the Saudi family or ISIS, it's actually quite laughable to suggest otherwise.

 

[SilentxS3ud]

I feel comfortable that Canada has a relativity clean historical record. So yes I will judge Saudi Arabia with Impunity. I would even if I was an American. Read Madness's post again, he concedes on America's faults but drives home why Saudi Arabia is a horrible place.

In fact it's the biggest trolling "ally" the USA has ever had. I don't know of a country that has ever undermined an "Ally" in history as much as SA has to the USA.

It's such a joke now, that I'm hoping that the Elites in Washington finally wake up and realize that Russia, China, Iran and so forth don't hold a candle to the shit SA feeds to them on a regular basis and the damages it causes to their national interests daily.

I can't really comment on the relations between SA and the US due to the lack of knowledge. However, whatever any government does, it doesn't necessarily represent the people. I mean read this:

ISIS is a known disgusting entity. But the chance of an unrestrained Saudi population is a Nightmare scenario

Mrmartel says ISIS is a disgusting entity, which we all agree on. Yet he says an "unrestrained" Saudi population is a "Nightmare scenario" as if Saudi people were ... Animals, and based on how he compares the two, he makes it seem as if Saudis are worse than ISIS which is extremely offensive. Saudis don't necessarily agree with whatever the government does/says. Even if they did, the comparison to ISIS is inexcusable.

 

[You Are Viewtiful]

You really have never been to the middle east, have you? The people actually living there have more in common with the average American/European than the Saudi family or ISIS, it's actually quite laughable to suggest otherwise.

Middle East =! Saudi Arabia. KSA is on a whole other planet.

 

[Nasser]

Middle East =! Saudi Arabia. KSA is on a whole other planet.

lol what is this? Let me ask you please how BAD are you in geography? You remind me of one of my professors in college when she told the class that Saudi doesn't belong to the Middle east but Afghanistan does.

 

[You Are Viewtiful]

lol what is this? Let me ask you please how BAD are you in geography? You remind me of one of my professors in college when she told the class that Saudi doesn't belong to the Middle east but Afghanistan does.

You misunderstood me. I'm saying Saudi Arabians are different from the rest of the Middle East. They don't aspire to imitate Americans/the West like the rest of the ME, and their lifestyle has more in common with IS than the USA. Not sure why you're giving me your geography lesson because you had a nut teacher.

 

[Nasser]

You misunderstood me. I'm saying Saudi Arabians are different from the rest of the Middle East. They don't aspire to imitate Americans/the West like the rest of the ME, and their lifestyle has more in common with IS than the USA. Not sure why you're giving me your geography lesson because you had a nut teacher.

I'm so glad Saudis don't imitate the American or the "western lifestyle" to be honest. Also don't worry, they also have nothing in common with ISIS. Unless you guys have lived there and experienced what it's like to be there, you cannot judge Saudis with those extremely offensive words, comparing them to the savages ISIS. If we all acted that way, believe whatever we see in the media (as of we were mindless animals), I would believe that RIGHT NOW if you're colored in the America, you would probably get shot by a cop any time soon.

 

[Stinkles]

You guys talk about Saudi Arabia like this as if your countries have never done anything bad/worse at all. History says a lot. I don't have anything to add the OP.

OK, so based on this logic, no country can talk about other countries.

 

[You Are Viewtiful]

I'm so glad Saudis don't imitate the American or the "western lifestyle" to be honest. Also don't worry, they also have nothing in common with ISIS. Unless you guys have lived there and experienced what it's like to be there, you cannot judge Saudis with those extremely offensive words, comparing them to the savages ISIS. If we all acted that way, believe whatever we see in the media (as of we were mindless animals), I would believe that RIGHT NOW if you're colored in the America, you would probably get shot by a cop any time soon.

I'm sorry, but any country where a woman has to ask the permission of a man to leave the house or move around is not a civilized society and indeed has disturbing things in common with the Islamic State. I lived in Kuwait for a few years and remember seeing more knee-level skirts than hijabs, but there was a strong Wahabbi presence there and they were real nutjobs. It would be nicer if Saudi Arabians kept their archaic practices to themselves and stop exporting their hate ideology.

I'm not American but nice try. The US may be racist but at least it abolished slavery a long time ago lol.

 

[reckless]

You guys talk about Saudi Arabia like this as if your countries have never done anything bad/worse at all. History says a lot. I don't have anything to add the OP.

Whataboutism is a bad defense, yes everyone country has done bad things that doesn't mean they shouldn't be able to criticize each other.

 

[SilentxS3ud]

They don't aspire to imitate Americans/the West like the rest of the ME

And that's wrong how exactly? You might not agree with the Saudi culture but that does not mean it's wrong if they're not imitating Americans/the west.

 

[Nasser]

I'm sorry, but any country where a woman has to ask the permission of a man to leave the house or move around is not a civilized society and indeed has disturbing things in common with the Islamic State. I lived in Kuwait for a few years and remember seeing more knee-level skirts than hijabs, but there was a strong Wahabbi presence there and they were real nutjobs. It would be nicer if Saudi Arabians kept their archaic practices to themselves and stop exporting their hate ideology.

I'm not American but nice try. The US may be racist but at least it abolished slavery a long time ago lol.

There we go with the women in Saudi. YES, I agree. I hate the situation with the women in Saudi Arabia and wish it would change. I'm not saying Saudi Arabia is a holy land where everything is perfect (every country has its problems too), but acting like Saudis without their government will be worse than ISIS is extremely offensive, I am sorry, but here I disagree, and honestly if any of you guys would believe that I would leave the discussion. Acting like American or western lifestyle is the way to go is nothing but nonsense. Every country has its own culture and lifestyle, and Saudi has its own too. You like it or hate it does not matter to them as long as you're not being offensive. I am not saying you are an American or anything, I was just trying to give you an example and show you my point. Lol what is this slavery thing? you still think there is slavery in Saudi? ok.....

 

[Stinkles]

. Lol what is this slavery thing? you still think there is slavery in Saudi? ok.....

Saudi Arabia is a destination country for men and women trafficked for the purposes of involuntary servitude and, to a lesser extent, commercial sexual exploitation. Men and women from Bangladesh, India, Sri Lanka, Nepal, Pakistan, the Philippines, Indonesia, Sudan, Ethiopia, and many other countries voluntarily travel to Saudi Arabia as domestic servants or other low-skilled laborers, but some subsequently face conditions indicative of involuntary servitude, including restrictions on movement, withholding of passports, threats, physical or sexual abuse, and non-payment of wages. Women, primarily from Asian and African countries are also believed to have been trafficked into Saudi Arabia for commercial sexual exploitation; others were reportedly kidnapped and forced into prostitution after running away from abusive employers.
Some Saudi men have also used legally contracted “temporary marriages” in countries such as Mauritania, Yemen, and Indonesia as a means by which to sexually exploit migrant workers. Females as young as seven years old are led to believe they are being wed in earnest, but upon arrival in Saudi Arabia subsequently become their husbands’ sexual slaves, are forced into domestic labor and, in some cases, prostitution. - U.S. State Dept Trafficking in Persons Report, June, 2009 [full country report]

.

 

[ibyea]

You're seriously going to equare the US as an equal to what Saudi Arabia does? What does nuking Japan have to do with anything? It was almost 70 years ago. It lead to their immediate surrender, and ended the war on the Pacific front and saved most of Japan from being invaded and millions of its civilians and soldiers from death. Any war analyst or historian will tell you that dropping the atom bombs on Japan, regardless of you how feel about nuclear weapons now, was the smartest move available. This revisionism in trying to portray the US as evil in World War II doesn't take into account Japan first committed a terrorist attack on Pearl Harbor that became an official declaration of War. It was also a brutal imperialistic and fascist regime that also invaded several neighboring countries and killed thousands and thousands of people. It also allied with Nazi Germany and fascist Italy.

Don't get me wrong, the US is absolutely hypocritical and is very aggressive as a superpower in ensuring it's objectives are met but what they do is different than from what Saudi Arabia does. They are very different countries. Saudi Arabia is one of the largest sponsors of terrorism in the world, it's a brutal regime where dissent is silenced, women cannot even leave their house without male consent, cannot drive. They literally lash you on the street if you speak negative about them or the country, behead you on roads etc.

It's not revisionism to admit some of the evils the US has done during WWII, even if the axis powers and USSR were far far worse and the allied force winning was definitely a good thing. That enters into the question as to whether everything is permissible in times of war, so not going to go into it.

As for the terror part, the US has invited their own form of terror on other countries over the decades. Hundreds of thousands died in Iraq due to the invasion, hundreds of thousands died in Guatemala due to arming rebels, Iran is a theocracy because the US and UK saw fit to install its own dictator which led to the 79 revolution, who can forget Vietnam, there is the drone strikes that kills civilians, etc etc etc. Of course, living in the US is definitely better than in Saudi Arabia, but what they don't do to its own citizens, they do it to countries much weaker. Edit: You can argue that because the evil done by the US is much more banal, in a lot of cases sitting back while watching others do their job that more of the responsibility lies in the people supported by the US, but I personally don't see it that way.

 

[xbhaskarx]

The involvement of Saudi Arabia is hardly surprising, NATO-member Turkey is far more disturbing.

 

[curlyfriski]

You're seriously going to equare the US as an equal to what Saudi Arabia does? What does nuking Japan have to do with anything? It was almost 70 years ago. It lead to their immediate surrender, and ended the war on the Pacific front and saved most of Japan from being invaded and millions of its civilians and soldiers from death. Any war analyst or historian will tell you that dropping the atom bombs on Japan, regardless of you how feel about nuclear weapons now, was the smartest move available. This revisionism in trying to portray the US as evil in World War II doesn't take into account Japan first committed a terrorist attack on Pearl Harbor that became an official declaration of War. It was also a brutal imperialistic and fascist regime that also invaded several neighboring countries and killed thousands and thousands of people. It also allied with Nazi Germany and fascist Italy.

All history is revisionist

 

[Alo0oy]

I'm sorry, but any country where a woman has to ask the permission of a man to leave the house or move around is not a civilized society and indeed has disturbing things in common with the Islamic State. I lived in Kuwait for a few years and remember seeing more knee-level skirts than hijabs, but there was a strong Wahabbi presence there and they were real nutjobs. It would be nicer if Saudi Arabians kept their archaic practices to themselves and stop exporting their hate ideology.

I'm not American but nice try. The US may be racist but at least it abolished slavery a long time ago lol.

Women having to ask permission to leave the house is a government/religious police thing, the people there didn't ask for this, remember, they didn't "vote" for anything.

You say you've been to Kuwait, have you seen the Saudi cars there in the weekends? What do they usually do? force people into their culture? Or try to have some fun without the government interfering?

 

[speculawyer]

You know . . . this is one of the reasons why it would be good to be friends with Iran.

I think the USA should be friends with both Sunni and Shia. And if they have problems with eachother, let them fight it out amongst themselves. Not our problem.

 

[Madness]

There we go with the women in Saudi. YES, I agree. I hate the situation with the women in Saudi Arabia and wish it would change. I'm not saying Saudi Arabia is a holy land where everything is perfect (every country has its problems too), but acting like Saudis without their government will be worse than ISIS is extremely offensive, I am sorry, but here I disagree, and honestly if any of you guys would believe that I would leave the discussion. Acting like American or western lifestyle is the way to go is nothing but nonsense. Every country has its own culture and lifestyle, and Saudi has its own too. You like it or hate it does not matter to them as long as you're not being offensive. I am not saying you are an American or anything, I was just trying to give you an example and show you my point. Lol what is this slavery thing? you still think there is slavery in Saudi? ok.....

This is either elite level trolling or extreme naiveté on your part. Remove the charged word 'slavery' and yes Saudi Arabia is guilty of modern day slavery. This happens in the form of human trafficking and indentured workers. Their passports are seized and they are not able to leave the country. They are housed in poor conditions, millions suffer physical, emotional and sexual abuse, whether it's Pakistani laborers or Indonesian maids.

Also, just because it's Saudi Arabia culture means nothing. They don't have to follow western culture, but modern western culture is wished by a lot of the world and and especially humans under dictatorial or authoritarian regimes because it intrinsically values things like freedom of expression, freedom of speech, freedom of religion, equality, civil rights regardless of race, nationality, gender, religion, sexual orientation. Look at Eastern European nations during communist rule and now. Heck even ask mainland Chinese whether life was better in 1970 or 2010 for them. To say another countries culture shouldn't be criticized or removed ignores how we've gotten to this point. For example, before the British came to India, women would be burned alive with their husbands body in the practice of Sati. It was accepted and practiced. You could say it was Hindu/Indian culture, and the British practiced cultural imperialism, but honestly, ask yourself whether these types of customs need to be kept. Now it will never be brought back. Sometimes external factors are a force for change.

The citizenry of Saudi Arabia may not become ISIS if the monarchy is removed, but they may become worse. Saudi Arabians may not all support their monarchy or government, but many do. Many are nationalistic and love the lifestyle. And as we've seen with almost every country since the Arabian Spring, almost all are worse off initially. ISIS has come into power in the vacuum left after Saddam, Gaddafi were toppled and Al-Assad was almost toppled. Right now, the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia rules with an iron fist just like Saddam did, what happens when they go? Most Saudi citizens openly protect and value their culture and country. Can you honestly sit here and say they would be open to more democracy? Or human rights? Will they accept non-Islamic religion? The circumstances need to be ripe for a change in how the country is run. Removing the monarchy, you'll have all the senior members, the ruling elite, religious clerics all try and get ahead. You'll have people who want increased secularism, but you'll also get hardliners who want to keep the country the way it is.

 

[MisterFalcon]

. ISIS has come into power in the vacuum left after Saddam, Gaddafi were toppled and Al-Assad was almost toppled.

There was no vacuum after Saddam was toppled, a huge American army was there. Only when the Americans left (Iran ordered Maliki to demand their departure) did a vacuum appear as the Iraqi forces were an absolute joke. Maybe this was the intention of Iran, to leave them helpless and begging for their support or simple negligence but ISIS took half of Iraq 10 years after Saddam fell and 5 years after the Americans left.

 

[ICKE]

It is disgraceful that we pretend like these countries are reliable partners while at the same time elements within them fund extremist groups and take part in human trafficking among other things.

People made the argument that trade and wealth brings progress but that is not the case at all with countries like Saudi-Arabia. People are still publicly beheaded, women and minorities have no rights, foreign workers are exploited sexually but for some reason we are unable to use diplomatic pressure against them. At least Sweden woke up.