Is "A game for everyone is a game for no one" the dumbest new phrase in gaming?
- Thread starter Men_in_Boxes
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FoxMcChief
Gold Member
Guilty_AI
Member
That's the fun part, neither of these games did that. Neither Larian nor Fromsoftware designed nor expected BG3 and Elden Ring to be nearly as big or succesful as they ended up being.
They never cast any larger nets, they simply crafted nets so shiny and attractive many of the more distant fish willingly decided to get caught.
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Men_in_Boxes
Snake Oil Salesman
There has never been a game designed with the target audience of "everyone".
Men_in_Boxes
Snake Oil Salesman
Wrong.
Budgets for those games grew considerably because designers attempted, and succeeded, at grabbing more players.
Heck, even I bought Elden Ring lol
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Majukun
Member
It means that to make a game for everyone does not mean to make a game that everyone likes, because it's literally impossible, but that the fewer possible people hate.
And the only way to do that is to go for the mid way in everything, meaning that the result would be a mid game that in the attempt to please a bit everyone, never fully pleased anyone.
And the only way to do that is to go for the mid way in everything, meaning that the result would be a mid game that in the attempt to please a bit everyone, never fully pleased anyone.
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Jigsaah
Gold Member
People's taste vary greatly. If you try to satisfy everyone you'll end up satisfying no one. So the statement is very true. You gotta have more focus I think. Even GTA V...a game that seems like its for everyone based on the numbers...really isn't. It does have something for a large chunk of the gaming community.
FoxMcChief
Gold Member
No. They focus on fun.I'd argue that Nintendo is pretty good at making games for "everybody".
Their art style in a lot of their games has definitely turned people away. And like Nintendo, I tell those people to go fuck themselves and enjoy their Aloy.
Guilty_AI
Member
You said it correctly, they already had the playerbase and merely matched the budget to it. BG3 was designed not for everyone, but with the Divinity OS2 playerbase in mind. Similarly, Elden Ring was made to follow on Dark Souls 3.
They weren't trying to massively expand their audiences, they were building up on a formula whose audience they already had.
Men_in_Boxes
Snake Oil Salesman
We agree. The word "massively" here shows we're on the same page.
Sooner
Member
No dude.
Giallo Corsa
Gold Member
"Know thy audience"
...Words to live by if you're trying to sell...anything really
...Words to live by if you're trying to sell...anything really
CentralScrutinizer
Member
Its a good statement. You need to know who your target audience is and design your game for them. If you make a game for everyone, you have no target audience and people will just ignore it.
Punished Miku
Gaslighter Pro: 16.7 Fireflops
It makes sense. It's very similar to people who want to be everyone's friend and are pathologically averse to confrontation. If you stand for anything, virtually any opinion, then you will inevitably find yourself against someone. Standing for literally anything, means someone will potentially not agree with you. Only way to be friends with everyone is to not stand for anything but agreeableness.
Mainstream games can be a bit similar. They polish any potentially rough and interesting edge away so as not to alienate anyone. They end up committing the artistic version of not standing for anything except agreeableness. It often leads to less interesting, less experimental art. Something like NieR that speaks to me deeply would never exist under a design philosophy trying to not alienate anyone. Most complex games wouldn't exist. Anything niche at all wouldn't exist. Anything new would likely not exist.
Guilty_AI
Member
No we do not. They didn't design, much less redesigned their game to appeal to more people, all they did was build on and improve on their formula. That by itself will naturally attract more players, but it will never attract players who fundamentally, irrevocably despise that formula to begin with. And there sure as hell are tons of people who dislike BG3 and Elden Ring formulas.
GymWolf
Member
Not remotely as bad as comparing an extraction shooter to the impact of mario 64, no 
When you make a game trying to accomodate literally everyone, your game is probably gonna be generic as fuck or with zero challenge or with other major flaws, so yeah they are spot on.
Too bad hd2 devs have other kind of problems on their hands.
When you make a game trying to accomodate literally everyone, your game is probably gonna be generic as fuck or with zero challenge or with other major flaws, so yeah they are spot on.
Too bad hd2 devs have other kind of problems on their hands.
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Men_in_Boxes
Snake Oil Salesman
This is my primary issue with the phrase. It places too much emphasis on one side of the coin. It ignores the other side.
There are people that fail at being everyone's friend because the majority of people are put off by their personality.
Then there are people who are widely liked because their personality appeals to so many.
Punished Miku
Gaslighter Pro: 16.7 Fireflops
You can make things popular. But it will still never be for everyone. It's just a basic philosophical saying.
The best of the best manage to walk that tight rope and make things popular but also lead the audience to things they didn't know they wanted which contains a kernel of true art. People like James Cameron, Steven Spielberg manage this. Nintendo manages this a lot of the time. Even then, it's clearly still not for literally everyone.
Catering to everyone is often seen in excessive playtesting where interesting things can get removed or dumbed down. Marvel movies are an example of a cater to everyone style. They started with a product aimed at comic fans and boys. They then figured they had them on lock and tried to make it expand to women so it fits everyone. Now no one likes it (women included) and its largely devoid of genuine art or meaning.
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Dr Bass
Member
It is a dumb phrase. I understand the point but on the other hand things can be described as having "universal appeal" which is also a real thing. So you can basically say whatever you want and it could have meaning.
Other current dumb game phrases/terms I see people using way too often.
"The gameplay loop."
"Dopamine."
Oddly enough, I often see those used hand in hand.
Other current dumb game phrases/terms I see people using way too often.
"The gameplay loop."
"Dopamine."
Oddly enough, I often see those used hand in hand.
Loomy
Thinks Microaggressions are Real
No, it means if you make compromises to try and please everyone, you're going to end up compromising so much that it won't please anyone.
Boneless
Member
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Nydius
Member
Saints Row Reboot, Concord, and Dragon Age Veilguard are examples of games their respective developers tried to make "for everyone".
How'd they turn out?
There's your answer.
Devs should focus on one thing only: Making the quality game they want to make. Not worry about what audience they're seeking, or if it ticks off some "current thing" diversity checkbox. Make a good game, and the players will come. Make a game worrying about "the audience" or "the message" and it will almost certainly be a complete mess.
How'd they turn out?
There's your answer.
Devs should focus on one thing only: Making the quality game they want to make. Not worry about what audience they're seeking, or if it ticks off some "current thing" diversity checkbox. Make a good game, and the players will come. Make a game worrying about "the audience" or "the message" and it will almost certainly be a complete mess.
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MonkD
Member
I agree. But you can look at long running series and how they've pivoted towards new audiences, thinking that the old ones will stick around.
The massive push towards women seemed to have done alright. But the current trend towards things like trans has drawn a clear line where it starts losing the original user base. But I'm pretty sure that the Helldivers quote is more about game difficulty than politics. OP was reading the quote as if the game for everyone was defacto liked by everyone, just because they used everyone in the phrase.
Cynical_Aries
Gold Member
Silksong
kevboard
Member
no, but plenty of games have tried to please people that weren't part of the original target audience, and in doing so, completely destroyed what made the franchise good in the first place.
Monster Hunter Wilds is a recent example,
Halo 4 was a big one back in the day,
Marathon seems to do it both with its IP and the genre it tries to get into.
fighting games kinda do it currently by having those "modern" controls that replace motion inputs with simple button presses... which brings weird issues with it and also has not resulted in more people playing them either.
Edgelord79
Gold Member
It is what it is.
Sooner
Member
No... "making a game for everyone" means ATTEMPTING to make a game everyone will like. That is impossible. People are different.
Trying to please everyone means, taking certain things out that some people like, because other people dislike them and vice-versa. Or adding certain things sone people enjoy and others hate.
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PeteBull
Member
Games for "modern audience" aka women almost always(lets say 99% just incase) are shit from my male pov, so totally agree with the statement.
Romantic comedy and ufc/boxing ppv event have not just different but totally opposite audience, make games women love like nintendo's extremly succesful animal crossing(2ndbest selling switch game with over 48m copies sold) but when it comes to our AAA traditional genres and IP's with great legacy- just let them be appealing to male audience like they always were before 2015 and at least make all the feminist/woke stuff optional, like in BG3, its good for sales/business after all.
It should be like that not just with games but all other forms of entertainment- movies/comics etc- manga/anime found perfect solution for that, it has specific genres girls/women enjoy that us guys are literally disgusted/bored by and other genres that male audience loves which for the most part(there are always exceptions) are not enjoyed by women- and thats perfectly fine, men and women are not the same, not just physically but mentally too
DBZ fans ≠ Sailor Moon fans
Saying all that, ofc there are always exceptions that confirm the rule, in my case i watched and enjoyed all episodes of vampire diares thats considered relatively girly teenage tv drama.
Romantic comedy and ufc/boxing ppv event have not just different but totally opposite audience, make games women love like nintendo's extremly succesful animal crossing(2ndbest selling switch game with over 48m copies sold) but when it comes to our AAA traditional genres and IP's with great legacy- just let them be appealing to male audience like they always were before 2015 and at least make all the feminist/woke stuff optional, like in BG3, its good for sales/business after all.
It should be like that not just with games but all other forms of entertainment- movies/comics etc- manga/anime found perfect solution for that, it has specific genres girls/women enjoy that us guys are literally disgusted/bored by and other genres that male audience loves which for the most part(there are always exceptions) are not enjoyed by women- and thats perfectly fine, men and women are not the same, not just physically but mentally too
DBZ fans ≠ Sailor Moon fans
Saying all that, ofc there are always exceptions that confirm the rule, in my case i watched and enjoyed all episodes of vampire diares thats considered relatively girly teenage tv drama.
genesisblock
Member
You have to start thinking outside of the box.
Aenima
Member
I have news for you. No game appeals to everyone. You should always have a target audience in mind, cuz when you try to appeal to everyone you need to take things away from one audience to appeal to another and vice versa and you end up not trully appealing to anyone.
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ResilientBanana
Member
To be everywhere is to be nowhere. If the goal is a fanbase, you have to appeal to someone, not everyone. Games that did well started as passion projects.
BlueManifest
Member
I don't play games that are for everyone
Plague Doctor
Member
Know the audience for the game you want to make. It is implied that the devs are members of that audience and fans of the type of game they are making. And each audience is distinct and furthermore, not a monolith.
Making a game to target the lowest common denomator ensures the game will be deriative as fuck and lack any unique identity.
The games that breakout are very rarely contrived and even rareer, built to appeal to a massive audience. Most of the time it is lightning in a bottle. Right game at the right moment. It's either dumb, arrogant, or both to attempt to emulate that type of breakout success. Best a dev can do is make the best game they want to make, roll the dice, and see how the audience responds.
So, yeah... if your design goal is to make a product to appeal to everyone, it will end up appealing to no one (or few) cause it's pandering and deriative.
Making a game to target the lowest common denomator ensures the game will be deriative as fuck and lack any unique identity.
The games that breakout are very rarely contrived and even rareer, built to appeal to a massive audience. Most of the time it is lightning in a bottle. Right game at the right moment. It's either dumb, arrogant, or both to attempt to emulate that type of breakout success. Best a dev can do is make the best game they want to make, roll the dice, and see how the audience responds.
So, yeah... if your design goal is to make a product to appeal to everyone, it will end up appealing to no one (or few) cause it's pandering and deriative.
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Pimpbaa
Member
I think most western devs these days fail at the first 3 words of what you just said.
playbignbox
Member
I wouldn't say it's dumb, but there are definitely games that appeal to multiple types of players; games don't need to be niche-focused for a specific audience.
th4tguy
Member
It makes sense to me. You can try to make every aspect appeal to everyone and never have any of the product be good. Different tastes conflict. It's impossible to appeal to everyone. Pick a large enough group and focus on making the best product you can for that group. If it's good enough it will bleed into other interest groups like souls games, jrpgs, and even fps games did at one point in time.
Roni
Member
DreamcastSkies
Gold Member
"A game where everything is optional makes everything FEEL optional". This is how I feel about BOTW. OOT, MM, TWW, TP and SS feel like carved out adventures guiding a story you play through to bring it to life. Everything is open world and optional makes the game feel sort of hollow to me.
badblue
Gold Member
Your argument is flawed.
Demons Souls was only released on PS3 when it first came out as compared to Elden Ring being on every console and PC.
Baldur's Gate 1 was released in 1998 when PC gaming was far more niche the it is now and it only released on PC at a time when you had to physically buy a copy. Baldur's Gate 3 is available on multiple consoles and PC.
In both of these cases you can't say definitively the were more successful due to the changes in "appeal" and not simply because both games are just more widely available to interested players.
Knightime_X
Member
Depends on how literally it's taken.
Tekken 9 with tetris puzzles, mortal kombat controls, call of duty arenas, and a music dance pad with zombies and boobies, and cars you can race with minecraft mechanics.
what??
really gotta define the resolution on what they mean and how much is applied
Tekken 9 with tetris puzzles, mortal kombat controls, call of duty arenas, and a music dance pad with zombies and boobies, and cars you can race with minecraft mechanics.
what??
really gotta define the resolution on what they mean and how much is applied
Laptop1991
Member
You can't please everyone, and saying everyone likes this or that is nonsense, we all like different things, which is normal, no such thing as everyone in reality, so it's a smart saying.
bender
What time is it?
Appealing to a large majority is not "everyone" but the phrase simply means make games that people love more because it appeals more to them than being grey/bland mainstream stuff designed by committee to appeal to "everyone".
What's strange though is that despite understanding this concept of making more games targeted at specific people, that those people love, you often get bashing of decisions/sales if studios target some minority groups and not the majority.
What's strange though is that despite understanding this concept of making more games targeted at specific people, that those people love, you often get bashing of decisions/sales if studios target some minority groups and not the majority.
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