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[boiled goose]

Now you're strawmanning. I am not implying that one politician committing a wrongdoing makes it okay if others do it.

I'm asking you to name a politician who fits the stringent principle criteria you've established. And, as a follow-up, I'm asking you to lay out their successes as a politician. This isn't a defense of Hillary in itself, but if you can't name a single one, then the heart of the whatever issues you have are clearly not with Hillary herself.

I don't see how it is a strawman. What is the implication otherwise?

There are plenty of politicians who achieved tangible goals without taking millions of dollars of corporate money. Both in very recent memory and the majority before late 1970s. EVEN IF THEY DIDN'T EXIST, that does not mean it is not a problem. I think democrats playing this game is agreeing to get paid to lose. Why? Republicans are going to be willing to be more corrupt. Outside of national elections with lots of free media, money wins 95% of the time. By taking 20% of the money, democrats lose but cant turn around and point the finger. All you have to do is look at congress. Republicans control both chambers despite being wrong on nearly every single issue and demographics not being in their favor. Why? Democrats are playing a game that is designed for them to lose.

Now this is a strawman. "whatever issues you have are clearly not with Hillary herself" I have repeatedly said several times that many of my issues with Hillary are not particular to Hillary...

There are Hillary specific criticisms. Iraq, pot, death penalty, etc. but the money in politics related criticisms are more general. I don't think she is the problem, just part of it.

Are we talking campaign funds or are we talking personal funds.
Because one should lend you to jail while you can an argument for the other.

umm both, as I detailed in my post. The Clintons are multi millionaires. Look at how that money was made..

 

[opoth]

Why would you willingly sign up for an echo chamber? It's boring to never be challenged or even be presented with another viewpoint.

I am not a fan of either candidate, but at this point, Trump and his supporters have devolved to a level of discourse that brings absolutely no value to the table. Misinformation, false equivalencies and mediocre memes. It's like calling someone a cuck because they use a spam filter for their email.

 

[eBay Huckster]

Dude is canadian? If he wasn't wringing his hands about people laughing at Trump, I'd think he was Ted Cruz.

Well, at least he was. Then Trudeau started looking like he would win!

 

[Mael]

umm both, as I detailed in my post. The Clintons are multi millionaires. Look at how that money was made..

From a cursory glance, I'd say Hillary have a resume to back up her finance.
So I'd be more willing to blame the husband in the relationship.
I don't have any interest in going to the rabbit hole that's going to end with breitbart links about how crooked they are personnally.
As for Campaign finance, considering how fucked up the system is in the US I don't think unilateral disarmament is the way to go.
I think we had that conversation already.

Also this is the US, Clintons' personal fortune is not a liability. This isn't France.

 

[Veelk]

I don't see how it is a strawman. What is the implication otherwise?

There are plenty of politicians who achieved tangible goals without taking millions of dollars of corporate money. Both in very recent memory and the majority before late 1970s. EVEN IF THEY DIDN'T EXIST, that does not mean it is not a problem. I think democrats playing this game is agreeing to get paid to lose. Why? Republicans are going to be willing to be more corrupt. Outside of national elections with lots of free media, money wins 95% of the time. By taking 20% of the money, democrats lose but cant turn around and point the finger. All you have to do is look at congress. Republicans control both chambers despite being wrong on nearly every single issue and demographics not being in their favor. Why? Democrats are playing a game that is designed for them to lose.

For the third time, I'm talking about your criteria of uncompromised principles. This stems from your post about her being a fair weather politician on issues such as Gay Marriage, Iraq, TPP. Now, taking money from corperations can be one example of compromised principles, but I am not talking specifically about that, I'm talking about sheer never changing principles that you seem to claim that Hillary Clinton lacks in the original argument you made against her.

Okay, but who DOESN'T lack unchanging principles? Name someone whose principles have never changed or faltered or been in question in their political career. Because that's what the core of my question is here, not "Name someone who didn't take corperate money", which is an extremely narrow and specific version of the question I asked that is far more easily answered but not the question I asked, which is why I am marking your response as a straw man.

Now this is a strawman. "whatever issues you have are clearly not with Hillary herself" I have repeatedly said several times that many of my issues with Hillary are not particular to Hillary..

Then it seems your in the wrong thread, because the topic here is about criticizing Hillary, not the political system as a whole. If this is a problem with everyone, then there is no cause to expect different from Hillary Clinton through no fault of her own. For this to be a Hillary Clinton problem, she has to contrast with someone or another.

 

[TaterTots]

I do not like Hillary Clinton. I do not like her because she does not care about anything and is untrustworthy. When I think of a robot politician, she is what comes to mind. One moment, she is against gay marriage and the next she is officiating gay marriages to gain popularity. She has been deemed, "careless" by the F.B.I. Director for mishandling top secret information that could have put lives at risk. She also voted FOR the Iraq War. Last time I checked, among women voters, younger women disliked her the most. I shouldn't have to explain why I do not like her. I do not trust her and I don't want her to be my president. With that said, I'm voting for Johnson.

Also, I'm aware she has done some good work, but she lies and flip flops. I know that is common among politicians, but a lot of them haven't been investigated by the F.B.I. either. I'm very hesitant to talk politics on GAF. When I do the number of responses are too overwhelming. I'd say 90% or more are on the left wing here.

 

[Nafai1123]

umm both, as I detailed in my post. The Clintons are multi millionaires. Look at how that money was made..

Both Bill and Hillary have made a majority of their income by giving paid speeches.

 

[davepoobond]

That pour though....

she's just like me, i would totally have a overly frothy beer with her

Both Bill and Hillary have made a majority of their income by giving paid speeches.

giving speeches is like one of the least nefarious ways to make money, unless you're doing it in front of a Neo-Nazi rally or the KKK.

 

[BLACK AMERICAN PSYCHO]

She's a super villain.

 

[hawk2025]

I do not like Hillary Clinton. I do not like her because she does not care about anything and is untrustworthy. When I think of a robot politician, she is what comes to mind. One moment, she is against gay marriage and the next she is officiating gay marriages to gain popularity. She has been deemed, "careless" by the F.B.I. Director for mishandling top secret information that could have put lives at risk. She also voted FOR the Iraq War. Last time I checked, young women disliked her the most in favorable polls. I shouldn't have to explain why I do not like her. I do not trust her and I don't want her to be my president. With that said, I'm voting for Johnson.

Young women are not the group that dislikes her, and it's not even close. It's white men.

 

[MHWilliams]

You have an entire thread called "Is Hillary smack-talk not allowed here anymore?" following a number of other posts and posters who have successfully made their dissatisfaction with Clinton known. A number with mostly emotional arguments at best.

Does that answer your question, OP?

 

[TaterTots]

Young women are not the group that dislikes her, and it's not even close. It's white men.

Oops. I meant to say among women voters, younger women etc. etc. but maybe that has changed since I checked months ago.

 

[Veelk]

You have an entire thread called "Is Hillary smack-talk not allowed here anymore?" following a number of other posts and posters who have successfully made their dissatisfaction with Clinton known. A number with mostly emotional arguments at best.

Does that answer your question, OP?

Hey, we know you're just waiting for everyone to voice their dissent so that you can do one mass banning, ridding the forum of as many Hillary critics as possible in one fell swoop.

We're onto you.

 

[Mael]

Both Bill and Hillary have made a majority of their income by giving paid speeches.

Welp I guess I should have looked at it.

 

[pgtl_10]

I think elections can bring a kind of "yay rah rah" team-ism that is both important and discouraging, but we should never feel threatened to criticize our leaders.

It does which is why election season can not end soon enough.

This is not the first time GAF acts this way.

 

[EatinOlives]

Breitbart is to the right wing what the New York Times, the WaPo and the Guardian are to the left-wing.

Not even close.

Nice try though.

 

[Mecha]

I do not like Hillary Clinton. I do not like her because she does not care about anything and is untrustworthy. When I think of a robot politician, she is what comes to mind. One moment, she is against gay marriage and the next she is officiating gay marriages to gain popularity. She has been deemed, "careless" by the F.B.I. Director for mishandling top secret information that could have put lives at risk. She also voted FOR the Iraq War. Last time I checked, young women disliked her the most in favorable polls. I shouldn't have to explain why I do not like her. I do not trust her and I don't want her to be my president. With that said, I'm voting for Johnson.

Also, I'm aware she has done some good work, but she lies and flip flops. I know that is common among politicians, but a lot of them haven't been investigated by the F.B.I. either.

At the very least Johnson will tell people that he doesn't have a plan for climate change, even if he beats around the bush some. That's at least something.

Also, I'm aware she has done some good work, but she lies and flip flops. I know that is common among politicians, but a lot of them haven't been investigated by the F.B.I. either. I'm very hesitant to talk politics on GAF. When I do the number of responses are too overwhelming. I'd say 90% or more are on the left wing here.

If you say something that is too far left or too far right then some people will pounce on you here, but you don't have to always respond.

 

[Alpha Centauri]

Both Bill and Hillary have made a majority of their income by giving paid speeches.

Once people figure this out HIllary will be done. She shook fam.

 

[Angry Grimace]

The problem with Clinton bashing in relation to Trump is that its mostly whataboutism that employs false equivalence to pretend Clinton is just as bad as Trump for reasons.

It isn't that its not allowed, its that its patently absurd to try and equate Trump with Clinton, especially as a call to vote for a third party independent of those third parties' actual platforms.

 

[EatinOlives]

I do not like Hillary Clinton. I do not like her because she does not care about anything and is untrustworthy. When I think of a robot politician, she is what comes to mind. One moment, she is against gay marriage and the next she is officiating gay marriages to gain popularity. She has been deemed, "careless" by the F.B.I. Director for mishandling top secret information that could have put lives at risk. She also voted FOR the Iraq War. Last time I checked, among women voters, younger women disliked her the most. I shouldn't have to explain why I do not like her. I do not trust her and I don't want her to be my president. With that said, I'm voting for Johnson.

Also, I'm aware she has done some good work, but she lies and flip flops. I know that is common among politicians, but a lot of them haven't been investigated by the F.B.I. either. I'm very hesitant to talk politics on GAF. When I do the number of responses are too overwhelming. I'd say 90% or more are on the left wing here.

An investigation by the FBI is not proof of wrongdoing, because that's what it is: an investigation. Had she been indicted that would've been something else entirely.

 

[hawk2025]

Oops. I meant to say among women voters, younger women etc. etc. but maybe that has changed since I checked months ago.

Well, while I'm at it.

Here's just some of Johnson's changing of opinions, since untrustworthiness and changing of positions seems to be something that bothers you about Clinton:

I support gay unions; government out of marriage business. (Apr 2011)
Overturn CA Prop. 8: Let gays marry. (Apr 2013)

Visited Occupy Wall Street; we need radical surgery. (Feb 2012)
Eliminate corporate income tax as real way to create jobs. (Jun 2011)

Too many unnecessary laws leads to too many in prison. (Jan 2016)
Vetoed early release of prisoners due to overcrowding. (Aug 2012)
Vetoed hate crime legislation as thought-crime. (Aug 2012)
Built private prisons to replace out-of-state prisoners. (Aug 2012)

No cap-and-trade; no taxing carbon emissions. (Jul 2011)
I accept global warming but not cap-and-trade. (Jun 2011)
Kyoto Treaty must include reductions by all countries. (Aug 2000)
Federal tax incentives for energy, with state decisions. (Aug 2001)

Government-managed healthcare is insanity. (Aug 2012)
More federal funding for rural health services. (Aug 2001)

Bonus:

Unlimited campaign contributions by corporations. (Jul 2011)

http://www.ontheissues.org/Gary_Johnson.htm

 

[MHWilliams]

Hey, we know you're just waiting for everyone to voice their dissent so that you can do one mass banning, ridding the forum of as many Hillary critics as possible in one fell swoop.

We're onto you.

 

[opoth]

Breitbart is to the right wing what the New York Times, the WaPo and the Guardian are to the left-wing.

Yikes! I HOPE that you're trolling...but even if you aren't, I know there must people who actually think this way. It goes a long toward explaining why Trump has any sort of foothold at all, even if its now slipping away in the long run.

 

[Chinese Cartoons]

America chooses the least worst of the 2 at least in the uk we act like we have 3 parties, yay democracy.

 

[Mael]

Yikes! I HOPE that you're trolling...but even if you aren't, I know there must people who actually think this way. It goes a long toward explaining why Trump has any sort of foothold at all, even if its now slipping away in the long run.

One side has a bias, the other is pants on head lunacy.
Clearly both sides are the same and the answer lies in the middle!

 

[MrOogieBoogie]

Don't have time to read this whole thread right this minute, but I wanted to say quickly that I've no clue why people dislike Hillary with such fervor. I honestly feel bad for the woman. Many people can't even seem to come up with truly valid reasons as to why they hate her, so it strikes me as incredibly strange. She's perhaps not the most charismatic politician, but if that's the only real sleight against her then that's a pretty fucking rude reason to constantly bring someone down.

 

[Chinese Cartoons]

Don't have time to read this whole thread right this minute, but I wanted to say quickly that I've no clue why people dislike Hillary with such fervor. I honestly feel bad for the women. Many people can't even come up with valid reasons why they hate her, so it strikes me as incredibly strange. She's perhaps not the most charismatic politician, but if that's the only real sleight against her then that's a pretty fucking rude reason to constantly bring someone down.

She just wants the job and will say anything for it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dY77j6uBHI

But then the other option is trump so yeah.

 

[hawk2025]

She just wants the job and will say anything for it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dY77j6uBHI

Aaaand there it is.


Bingo!

 

[rjinaz]

One side has a bias, the other is pants on head lunacy.
Clearly both sides are the same and the answer lies in the middle!

And that left bias mostly consists of not being shitty to other human beings.

 

[Chinese Cartoons]

Aaaand there it is.


Bingo!

I take bitcoins.

 

[Mael]

And that left bias mostly consists of not being shitty to other human beings.

A bias is a bias, all bias are bad and you should feel bad about having a bias.
Bias.

the fun part about that video about lying is that Obama is probably the only one you would have trouble doing that considering how short his public life is.
Like leave me with tv archives and a good week and I can probably do that for pretty much any public person.

 

[LumpOfCole]

Hillary does a lot of shit I do not like, and in fact the country may very likely be in worse shape in 2020 after her first term - though we may get a progressive Supreme Court Justice or two with her first term, so it might be a long term win on that front.

Here's the thing, though. With Hillary as president, I'm 99.99999% sure she's not going to start a nuclear war with anyone. With Trump, I'm only about 85-90% sure he's not going to start a war that escalates to nuclear levels. For that reason, Hillary is the only choice as far as my vote is concerned.

 

[Veelk]

She just wants the job and will say anything for it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dY77j6uBHI

And we're back to this long thoroughly debunked crap. *sigh*

https://pimeablog.wordpress.com/2016/05/19/responseto13min/

 

[water_wendi]

This is insane. Breitbart is more like Little Green Footballs.

A little off-topic but as someone that frequented political websites in the early-mid 2000s Little Green Footballs was one of the most right wing blogs around. Fast forward to last week when i wondered if they were for or against Trump i was shocked to see that the site had turned away from conservatism in 2009. This is the place that practically coined the term LLL (loony liberal left). The change really caught me by surprise.

 

[TaterTots]

Well, while I'm at it.

Here's just some of Johnson's changing of opinions, since untrustworthiness and changing of positions seems to be something that bothers you about Clinton:













Bonus:




http://www.ontheissues.org/Gary_Johnson.htm

As I stated, politicians tend to flip flop. With that said, most aren't constantly involved in a ton of scandals and investigations.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/oct/12/bill-clinton-hillary-clinton-scandals-ranked-from-/

I simply do not trust her to run the U.S. with her track record.

 

[Mecha]

I'm surprised critics of Hillary don't usually bring up how she has advocated for increased state surveillance. The Obama administration loved packing on the surveillance, and it looks like Hillary is going to continue down that path.

 

[eBay Huckster]

With that said, most aren't constantly involved in a ton of scandals and investigations.

what you mean to say here is "most haven't had ongoing opposition-party efforts to delegitimize every single thing they've done for the last 40 years"

there are a handful of objectively bad things about clinton, the fact that RW media (which includes the moonie times) has a hateboner for her that rivals the one they have for the first black president is not one

 

[Chinese Cartoons]

And we're back to this long thoroughly debunked crap. *sigh*

https://pimeablog.wordpress.com/2016/05/19/responseto13min/

Why does she want to be president anyway she charges 100s of thousands for her "speeches" but don't worry she knows what the common man feels.

 

[rjinaz]

As I stated, politicians tend to flip flop. With that said, most aren't constantly involved in a ton of scandals and investigations.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/oct/12/bill-clinton-hillary-clinton-scandals-ranked-from-/

I simply do not trust her to run the U.S. with her track record.

Constantly involved seems a little dramatic considering, how long she has been a career politician and also that the Republicans have dragged out Benghazi for years. Ok there was the email thing sure.

 

[Veelk]

As I stated, politicians tend to flip flop. With that said, most aren't constantly involved in a ton of scandals and investigations.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/oct/12/bill-clinton-hillary-clinton-scandals-ranked-from-/

I simply do not trust her to run the U.S. with her track record.

And it doesn't matter to you that those scandals have mostly turned out to be frivolous and empty of actual wrongdoing? I mean, the first scandal that lists is that Bill Clinton got impeached because he had sex with Monica Lewinsky...which is Hillary's fault?

Why does she want to be president anyway she charges 100s of thousands for her "speeches" but don't worry she knows what the common man feels.

 

[Mael]

I'm surprised critics of Hillary don't usually bring up how she has advocated for increased state surveillance. The Obama administration loved increasing surveillance, and it looks like Hillary is going to continue down that path.

A white whale!
A criticism that doesn't seem to have a hint of sexism attached to it.
Obama was very bad on the whole surveillance crap, Hillary will not be any better.
That's the angle her opponent should have struck her with.

Why does she want to be president anyway she charges 100s of thousands for her "speeches" but don't worry she knows what the common man feels.

This is going to be a productive convo,
I can't put my finger as to why...

 

[davepoobond]

Why does she want to be president anyway she charges 100s of thousands for her "speeches" but don't worry she knows what the common man feels.

good question, why does anyone do public service...

 

[EatinOlives]

As I stated, politicians tend to flip flop. With that said, most aren't constantly involved in a ton of scandals and investigations.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/oct/12/bill-clinton-hillary-clinton-scandals-ranked-from-/

I simply do not trust her to run the U.S. with her track record.

Are you for real with that link you provided? Some of these "scandals" are:

17. Bill’s Golden Tongue: His and her speech fees shocked the American public.

15. Troopergate: From the good old days, did Arkansas state troopers facilitate Bill Clinton’s philandering?

21. Chinagate: Nuclear secrets go to China on her husband’s watch.

Some of these "scandals" are straight up conspiracy bullshit (#15 is literally just a question!), several are related to Bill and have nothing to do with Hillary, many of the others are manufactured controversies by right wing politicians in failed attempts at smear campaigns. And, may I remind you once again, an INVESTIGATION is not PROOF OF WRONGDOING. An investigation only looks for that proof of wrongdoing.

That's the problem with the "trust issues" that many people have; they're predicated on the implied acceptance of controversies regardless of whether or not they're legitimate or have evidence of wrongdoing. All people have to do is look at the sheer number of times X politician has been antagonized and droves of people will go "they're not trustworthy! Just look at how many times they've been antagonized!"

 

[Ophelion]

good question, why does anyone do public service...

Tax write-offs?

 

[ultratruman]

never forget.............

this is the woman who wants to be YOUR next prez..............................

 

[br0ken_shad0w]

It does which is why election season can not end soon enough.

This is not the first time GAF acts this way.

2008 was straight up Obama love fest here. And the anti-Hillary posts back then were not much better than /r/politics =P

 

[Durden77]

You have an entire thread called "Is Hillary smack-talk not allowed here anymore?" following a number of other posts and posters who have successfully made their dissatisfaction with Clinton known. A number with mostly emotional arguments at best.

Does that answer your question, OP?

I guess so, and I'm glad we actually have a thread discussing Hillary and people's opinions on her, which I feel like we haven't had a legitimate back and forth on in forever, rather than Trump engulfing everything everyday.

 

[Nafai1123]

As I stated, politicians tend to flip flop. With that said, most aren't constantly involved in a ton of scandals and investigations.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/oct/12/bill-clinton-hillary-clinton-scandals-ranked-from-/

I simply do not trust her to run the U.S. with her track record.

At least post a list of those "scandals" and all the evidence provided in that article.

1. Monica Lewinsky: Led to only the second president in American history to be impeached.

2. Benghazi: Four Americans killed, an entire system of weak diplomatic security uncloaked, and the credibility of a president and his secretary of state damaged.

3. Asia fundraising scandal: More than four dozen convicted in a scandal that made the Lincoln bedroom, White House donor coffees and Buddhist monks infamous.

4. Hillary’s private emails: Hundreds of national secrets already leaked through private email and the specter of a criminal probe looming large.

5. Whitewater: A large S&L failed and several people went to prison.

6. Travelgate: The firing of the career travel office was the very first crony capitalism scandal of the Clinton era.

7. Humagate: An aide’s sweetheart job arrangement.

8. Pardongate: The first time donations were ever connected as possible motives for presidential pardons.

9. Foundation favors: Revealing evidence that the Clinton Foundation was a pay-to-play back door to the State Department, and an open checkbook for foreigners to curry favor.

10. Mysterious files: The disappearance and re-discovery of Hillary’s Rose Law Firm records.

11. Filegate: The Clinton use of FBI files to dig for dirt on their enemies.

12. Hubble trouble: The resignation and imprisonment of Hillary law partner Web Hubbell.

13. The Waco tragedy: One of the most lethal exercises of police power in American history.

14. The Clinton’s Swedish slush fund: $26 million collected overseas with little accountability and lots of questions about whether contributors got a pass on Iran sanctions.

15. Troopergate: From the good old days, did Arkansas state troopers facilitate Bill Clinton’s philandering?

16. Gennifer Flowers: The tale that catapulted a supermarket tabloid into the big time.

17. Bill’s Golden Tongue: His and her speech fees shocked the American public.

18. Boeing Bucks: Boeing contributed big-time to Bill; Hillary helped the company obtain a profitable Russian contract.

19. Larry Lawrence: How did a fat cat donor get buried in Arlington National Cemetery without war experience?

20. The cattle futures: Hillary as commodity trader extraordinaire.

21. Chinagate: Nuclear secrets go to China on her husband’s watch.

 

[Chinese Cartoons]

And it doesn't matter to you that those scandals have mostly turned out to be frivolous and empty of actual wrongdoing? I mean, the first scandal that lists is that Bill Clinton got impeached because he had sex with Monica Lewinsky...which is Hillary's fault?

Debunk this whoever wins you lose.

 

[Veelk]

Debunk this whoever wins you lose.

Well, at this point, you're just posting driveby garbage that isn't even an argument anymore, so.....

bye.