Is Mainstream Hatred Of Anime Growing?
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Aaron-Lagann
Banned
It's one of the reasons, yeah, like I said, nostalgia is ruinous. But, even if that's how it is a lot of the time, I feel people should just learn to always call bullshit on arguments based on nostalgia whenever they arise.
I like wrestling. Shit's fun.
Another factor is the kind of people who obsesses over it. You can have Star Wars and Star Treks nerds etc but they don't damage the image of the thing really, whereas 30 year old men with little anime girl avatars and figures makes the whole thing seem dodgy to be involved in.
We,, then try watching less dodgy shit and try some good shows. Get yourself some jazzy Baccano!, pick up a bit of Ghost in the Shell: SAC or immerse yourself into the world of Full Metal Alchemist: Brotherhood.
Aaron-Lagann
Banned
30 year old men in Star Trek uniforms at conventions isn't off putting in the same way? Guys standing in line to see a new Star Wars movie for months in full costume doing choreographed lightsaber fights isn't a little weird? Fanbases are weird, and there are always people in them that are way weirder. You're looking at the extreme examples and judging the entire medium's viewerbase off them.
Stop with that 30 year old man stuff, I'll be 30 in a little over a year =(.
Why am I no longer allowed to like certain things because of a number? Damn.
HolyBaikal
Banned
Unfortunately there are a lot of hateful people in this word. And I'm sad that I found this thread here because it's making me feel... not so good...
I was so proud of discovering and loving My Little Pony. Because it meant that I enjoyed a Western cartoon for once. And I love Western cartoons, but less often because they have less of the things I love and make me happy.
If the "mainstream" don't like anime. Then... the mainstream scare me... and I'm scared of "normal people". Especially if they're hateful. I don't want to be around hateful people. I want to be myself and be proud of what I love. But I don't want people hating me for what makes me happy.
If people don't like me or what makes me happy, I'm still going to be myself, though. I'm going to be proud of myself and what makes me happy and happy to be alive. I want to always be a part of celebrate what makes me happy and spread the love of what makes me happy to others. I can't be afraid of other people who don't like what I like. And I wouldn't be a happy person if I wasn't happy and proud in the things that I like.
I guess not everyone likes the same things, though. I don't understand why some people don't like moe and cuteness and things like My Little Pony and Magical Girls. That makes me sad, I want to have things in common with other people, and share what I love with them. I don't like Cowboy Bepop, though, so I guess people are different.
If anime needs to be more like Cowboy Bebop to be more popular... then I guess I would rather anime not be popular.
You know, most people have been pretty nice to me about my interest in anime and cute things outside of the internet. And I've very proud of my interest. I wear things like My Little Pony and Hello Kitty and Sailor Moon things all over the place. Because I want to wear my inner happiness on my sleeves and be proud of it. Because it's who I am and what makes me happy.
I was so proud of discovering and loving My Little Pony. Because it meant that I enjoyed a Western cartoon for once. And I love Western cartoons, but less often because they have less of the things I love and make me happy.
If the "mainstream" don't like anime. Then... the mainstream scare me... and I'm scared of "normal people". Especially if they're hateful. I don't want to be around hateful people. I want to be myself and be proud of what I love. But I don't want people hating me for what makes me happy.
If people don't like me or what makes me happy, I'm still going to be myself, though. I'm going to be proud of myself and what makes me happy and happy to be alive. I want to always be a part of celebrate what makes me happy and spread the love of what makes me happy to others. I can't be afraid of other people who don't like what I like. And I wouldn't be a happy person if I wasn't happy and proud in the things that I like.
I guess not everyone likes the same things, though. I don't understand why some people don't like moe and cuteness and things like My Little Pony and Magical Girls. That makes me sad, I want to have things in common with other people, and share what I love with them. I don't like Cowboy Bepop, though, so I guess people are different.
If anime needs to be more like Cowboy Bebop to be more popular... then I guess I would rather anime not be popular.
You know, most people have been pretty nice to me about my interest in anime and cute things outside of the internet. And I've very proud of my interest. I wear things like My Little Pony and Hello Kitty and Sailor Moon things all over the place. Because I want to wear my inner happiness on my sleeves and be proud of it. Because it's who I am and what makes me happy.
BronsonLee
Member
BattleMonkey
Member
Been growing resentment towards anime for years at conventions too. For a while anime took over much of the convention scene, but now that geekdom has had a surge in popularity and growth, feel there's been a huge push against the animus and you see lot of angry opinions against anime by random people constantly.
Big problem with the anime crowd, is that it has a stigma from all the young fans it attracts. There's been growing trend in diversity and higher ages at conventions and such so the "anime kids" get looked down on.
Big problem with the anime crowd, is that it has a stigma from all the young fans it attracts. There's been growing trend in diversity and higher ages at conventions and such so the "anime kids" get looked down on.
No adult men having lightsabres aren't as off putting to people as underage cartoon girls figures. I just think this is the way the 'mainstream' views it.
Moral Panic
Member
A high percentage of anime are bad and the amount of pandering and overreliance on terrible tropes is dragging the entire medium down. Not to mention the sexualisation of neotenic traits which is disturbing at best.
I like the medium and what a few creative minds have been able to do with it, and that's why I feel I need to criticise it so harshly. If people continue to be mealy mouthed then things will only get worse.
Chairmanchuck
Member
I would say that the most hardcore Star Trek fans still act more mature than most of the hardcore anime-fans you see during conventions.
The problem with those hardcore fans often is, that they kinda "pretend" to be totally into anime to the point it gets annoying. If you go to a convention, you can see that. People speaking in "broken" japanese, screaming "SASUKE! I LOVE YOU!"
Though often those people are the ones that pretend to know everything about anime, but actually know almost nothing and are in the fanscene for maybe a few years and move on to something else.
I think one problem is that a lot of the "newer" anime-fans, at least male, like ecchi-shows without any depth.
For every Tatami Galaxy, we have five ecchi-shows.
If you look at the german manga market there was a time, when the worst Yaoi-manga sold bazillions, while 20th Century Boys, Monster etc. were on the brink of getting canceled.
It was kinda sad to see, because here in Germany when manga got big, besides having Dragon Ball, Ranma, Conan and such things like Eden: Its an endless world, Blame! and such were totally popular.
BronsonLee
Member
Serious Answer:
I think that it isn't growing, so much as a lot more anime is coming over these days (thanks to streaming sites needing content), so instead of just getting, for the most part, the cream of the crop, now we're getting some garbage.
Looking directly at you, Knights of Sydonia
I think that it isn't growing, so much as a lot more anime is coming over these days (thanks to streaming sites needing content), so instead of just getting, for the most part, the cream of the crop, now we're getting some garbage.
Looking directly at you, Knights of Sydonia
I don't even see how this is an argument. You're saying you don't like something because of fake fans? What?
You absolutely are. I'd never tell people what they can like but you can't deny you'd be negatively judged more for watching anime than star trek at your age. But fuck the 'mainstream' anyway I'm not defending this view point I'm just being realistic as to what most people think.
Aaron-Lagann
Banned
I've struggled with depression and cute things are really calming and help deal with it, I like the bright colors and happy attitude. (Though, MLP isn't really my thing) I used to hide the things I'm into, but ever since I said fuck it and bought all the things I wanted to, I've been happier as a whole. Who gives a shit if I have a Hatsune Miku lanyard for my keys, who cares if my wallet has Oreimo on it, who cares if my phone has a big dumb robot on it, it makes me happy and I've had conversations with people because of it.
I agree, but my I am angry at people who claim that anime got worse or that anime is bad in general. That's just not true. The hate on anime is really harsh sometimes, because people are still bringing DBZ to the table as an argument against anime.
Also thanks for the names.
Everyone judges everyone for what they like and dislike. It's not something exclusive to anime, and the over sensitive and defensive reactions most anime fans exhibit, is only one more reason for those on the outside to look at anime as being mostly dogshit.
There are plenty of things I love that most would call shit, it doesn't make me sad though. I just go "alright that's cool" and go back to enjoying whatever it is I enjoy.
HolyBaikal
Banned
Anime seems more popular than ever before. I think that a lot of the people who complain about anime today and moe are macho. But cute culture is more popular than ever before.Also, this is a thing L'Oreal sells in big box retailers.
So there's at least a growing public awareness that manga/anime are things.
I can go to all my local stores and find stuff that wasn't there in the 90s. Anime DVDs and Blu-Rays may not be sold as much as they once were. But moe and cuteness is. There's more anime type things being sold than ever. You can go to a local store and buy Pokemon clothes. And make up stores and sections sell things like Miss Manga. And the local stores I've been to sell lots of Hatsune Miku stuff, too.
And in the end of stuff, that's what I care about most. Not so much "anime" or animation, but cute stuff. That's why I fell in love with anime, and what I love most about anime.
ZiZ
Member
The average person can't distinguish between Animes.
There are some great Animes out there, but there are also lots and lots of terrible anime.
Animes about some random dude surrounded by attractive girls who want to bang him.
Animes about some random dude surrounded by attractive girls who want to bang him, but he wants to bang his sister.
Animes about some random dude surrounded by attractive girls who want to bang him, while fighting magic.
Animes about some random dude surrounded by attractive girls who want to bang him, while piloting giant robots.
There are some great Animes out there, but there are also lots and lots of terrible anime.
Animes about some random dude surrounded by attractive girls who want to bang him.
Animes about some random dude surrounded by attractive girls who want to bang him, but he wants to bang his sister.
Animes about some random dude surrounded by attractive girls who want to bang him, while fighting magic.
Animes about some random dude surrounded by attractive girls who want to bang him, while piloting giant robots.
Honestly I don't even watch much anime. I just like the art style in my video games because I think it looks better than the stuff that tries to look hyper realistic.
But the whole judgmental stuff kind of makes me want to watch tons of it just to spite the "mainstream".
Chairmanchuck
Member
No. I am a big anime- and mangafan.
I just dont like part of the fanscene. I go to one of the biggest german conventions every year and seriously, I would say that a lot of anime-fans are annoying.
If you go to a boardgame convention or some middle-age convention, its different.
Aaron-Lagann
Banned
That's not exclusive to anime, though. I went to a comic book convention like ten years ago and met people for American comics, Star Wars and anything else that were just as obnoxious as the people you listed. People desperately want to feel like part of something even if they're not really that invested.
I really don't think that's how the mainstream views it, I think they view both as creepy basement dwelling weirdos, Star Wars has just been around a hell of a lot longer than creepy anime figures, so people are more used to it.
Chairmanchuck
Member
I am not sure how its in america, but here in europe I would say all the other fanscenes I see during different conventions always seemed far more "mature" than a lot of the people you see on anime-cons.
The Omega Man
Member
I watch a few anime shows, maybe 2 or 3 every year, I grew up watching those as a kid too, however it's not the anime that regular people hate, it's probably the weaboos many people find cringe-worthy, those people using random Japanese words in a regular conversation, they really really want a Japanese girlfriend and idolize all things Japan with an unrealistic view of what things really are there.
chicagocubsfan
Member
I don't think so tbh. I don't think it's exploding in popularity, but I don't think there's a hate either.
Aaron-Lagann
Banned
I haven't been to many, but the ratios are probably more mature on the non-anime cons side, since anime does greatly appeal to a younger audience. But those people forcing themselves in to be part of something are still there, so are the obnoxious weirdos. Though, anime convetions as a whole seem more accepting of the weird obnoxious people and center more events around them being obnoxious weirdos.
See, "Anime" is such a wide term. There are so many different types of Anime that it's pretty stupid to hate on such a broad term. It's like saying I don't like Cartoons, Music, Food.
It would be much better if people would specify what type of Anime they don't like. If they only know 1 specific type of Anime and don't like that, then they should edjucate themselve about the fact that Anime can be very different from each other and stop generalizing.
ViewtifulJC
Banned
thread is hella anime
Chairmanchuck
Member
Exactly. And like I said. Those are often the ones that dont really know much about anime/manga in general.
Often the knowledgeable ones are the ones that dont have to talk about their hobby every minute in every conversation they have.
I would add that, without having any big proof of course, just my experience, that a lot of the fans use anime/manga as some sort of escapism. Often a lot of the people I meet on conventions, that fit the type of the obnoxious person, are the ones that dont have a big social life. Talking about being bullied, not having much or any friends at all...
HolyBaikal
Banned
Thanks!
And I'm so sorry you went through depression. :<
Self denial is sad. I couldn't do it. I'm usually pretty happy, even manically happy a lot. But I think if I try to deny myself and be closeted and pretend to be someone else, I would become very depressed.
Even if not everyone likes it, it's best to always be yourself and be happy of what makes you happy. I'm confident that there will always be people who love and accept you, and connect with you on what you love and love what you love. I think those are the the people that matter. And I think it's always possible to spread what you love to others. Not everyone will, some people, not everyone wants to love what you love so much. But I think there are always people who will warm up to to things you love, too. And those people are the people that matter.
Happiness is always loving who you are!
And thanks again! I'm glad you liked my post!
Moral Panic
Member
I don't know if it got worse and I think the interest on whether it got worse or not is damaging. What I do know is that it is not good yet, that it still needs a lot of growth and development. TV Anime's no.1 strength was it's ability to push out a wide variety of tightly told stories every season but western TV has caught on with True Detective and American Horror Story. Anime still doesn't have it's Game of Thrones (which isn't without criticism itself btw) which is a show which is unashamed about it's roots but uses it's medium in a way to draw in and defy the expectation of the viewers. How many TV anime can you truly recommend to a normal adult (with all their preconceptions and ideals) who just wants a good story? When TV shows like Mad Men show truly deep complicated humans how can you not get annoyed at the juvenality of the interpersonal relationships in most anime? I want the medium to be mainstream because I truly believe that in the hands of great artists more people will come to enjoy what it brings to the table. But first it must purge it's demons, and I will continue to add my voice in that regard.
Aaron-Lagann
Banned
I think that describes a lot of people who are deeply heavily into fanbases, but the anime con kids are younger and are less able to deal with it, so they channel it in a different way.
Considering anime has been around for decades...a ton. Also nice cherry picking of the top ten percent of telelvision.
It is the Sturgeon's Law at work hre. Though in that case, it'll be one Tatami Galaxy, five ecchi shows, and four long ass shounen series lol
That cherry picking and lol at anime not having its own GoT
BronsonLee
Member
I've never been more salty at a show than Attack on Titan's 2nd bit of 13 episodes. Goddamnit.
Chairmanchuck
Member
Wasnt it kinda predictable, knowing that its based on a Shounen-manga?
BattleMonkey
Member
Never really been my experience, go to so many cons since I typically work booths at them for years now. Typically more comic book and sci fi related cons attract more subdued, older, and mature con goers. Anime again has a stigma because it draws in alot of younger fans and with it, often comes attached weird internet fueled activities and manners that I think taints it. It's not just about anime, but it's younger fans drawing attention to it in a negative light when they seem like 4chan and internet meme machines come alive and spazzing out acting like idiots. I enjoy my share of anime, but I have no interest at all at being part of that fandom. Is everyone like that? No, but again I think alot of the negativity comes from the attention drawn to it by the obnoxious young fans. So often these kids who draw attention are what cause other fans to just shake their heads and go "fucking anime fans".
While you go to a themed sci fi convention or such, and it's just a more calm and almost professional environment in comparison. Not to say you don't see stupidity here and there, but it's often night and day with the fan bases.
Alot of folks I think are confusing the idea of hate for anime with it's popularity. These are two different things. Anime has grown and gained lot of fans and become almost a common thing for many, but as the OP suggested, there is a growing resentment against it as well by others.
Technosteve
Banned
Wolf Childern needs to save anime
Tertullian
Member
Real talk: I'm watching the second season of Sword Art Online, and I think it's exemplifying a lot of the things that put the mass market off of anime, and often annoy me. Minor spoilers ahoy.
Now, I loved and still love Sword Art Online's first 14 episodes. They form a coherent whole where the stakes are clear in every moment and the world feels real. But I hate everything after that. Here's some stuff that I find off-putting:
1. Fanservice. This new season takes place in a virtual reality video game which is grimmer and has a much more muted color palette than those featured in the previous story arcs. That could be an interesting choice. All the extras you see in the background wear pseudo-realistic combat gear, including the women.
The new female lead, though, does not. She wears shorts so short that they don't even cover her butt crack, and otherwise wildly impractical clothing. The "camera" loves to linger over her and emphasize this fact. The very first time we see her in-game character, there is a long shot that lovingly focuses on your attention on the outline of her genitalia clearly visible through her clothing, and then slowly pans up to the aforementioned butt crack.
This isn't some absurdly ecchi anime. This is Sword Art Online, one of the more mainstream offerings of the past few years. This is just one typical, representative example.
2. Terrible dialogue, full of non-sequiturs. There's one part where the aforementioned female lead and some extras are ambushing another group in the game, and they discover that the other group has brought along a dude with a minigun who can absolutely slaughter them. The female lead (a sniper) runs down to join her allies, and one of them says something like "we think they hired a bodyguard." She responds by saying something like "what?" in a way that suggests strongly that she has no idea what her ally is talking about.
It just doesn't make any sense. She already saw the guy with the minigun, who wasn't with the target group yesterday, and was obviously hired in order to turn the tables on her group. The logical response to her ally's comment would be "No shit, I saw," unless she has the short-term memory of a goldfish. It's just one small example, but anime is full of these moments in the dialogue, and I don't think bad translations are solely to blame. The dialogue is just badly written and disjointed.
There are also plenty of lines of the "explaining things that all the characters already know" and "recapping stuff that we just saw happen for no reason" variety.
3. Ridiculous themes that the show absolutely beats you over the head with. The female lead actually developed a pathological fear of guns because she shot an armed robber earlier in life, and is now playing this virtual reality game about guns as a kind of deep immersion therapy. Hey, the writers could get some interesting stuff out of that. But of course, they don't.
There's one part where the male lead tells the female lead something like "We have to fight as hard as we can and never give up, or else we don't deserve to live in this world." And I'm like: It's a damn video game. What the hell are you even talking about? That kind of weird comment might have made sense in the first plot arc of SAO, where the characters were actually trapped in a video game and could die permanently in any given fight, but it makes absolutely no damn sense here, in what is obviously just a normal video game.
And the villain's name is Death Gun. I literally burst out laughing when I heard that.
There are definitely some anime series that I love a lot and will defend, despite having a certain undeniable weirdness to them and sharing in (or subverting) weird anime tropes: Death Note, Madoka Magicka, Gankutsuou, Steins;gate and such. But a staggering portion of series seem to share in the problems outlines above. Films seem to fare a little better, with their higher budgets. I'm working on finishing my trip through Makoto Shinkai's movies.
Now, I loved and still love Sword Art Online's first 14 episodes. They form a coherent whole where the stakes are clear in every moment and the world feels real. But I hate everything after that. Here's some stuff that I find off-putting:
1. Fanservice. This new season takes place in a virtual reality video game which is grimmer and has a much more muted color palette than those featured in the previous story arcs. That could be an interesting choice. All the extras you see in the background wear pseudo-realistic combat gear, including the women.
The new female lead, though, does not. She wears shorts so short that they don't even cover her butt crack, and otherwise wildly impractical clothing. The "camera" loves to linger over her and emphasize this fact. The very first time we see her in-game character, there is a long shot that lovingly focuses on your attention on the outline of her genitalia clearly visible through her clothing, and then slowly pans up to the aforementioned butt crack.
This isn't some absurdly ecchi anime. This is Sword Art Online, one of the more mainstream offerings of the past few years. This is just one typical, representative example.
2. Terrible dialogue, full of non-sequiturs. There's one part where the aforementioned female lead and some extras are ambushing another group in the game, and they discover that the other group has brought along a dude with a minigun who can absolutely slaughter them. The female lead (a sniper) runs down to join her allies, and one of them says something like "we think they hired a bodyguard." She responds by saying something like "what?" in a way that suggests strongly that she has no idea what her ally is talking about.
It just doesn't make any sense. She already saw the guy with the minigun, who wasn't with the target group yesterday, and was obviously hired in order to turn the tables on her group. The logical response to her ally's comment would be "No shit, I saw," unless she has the short-term memory of a goldfish. It's just one small example, but anime is full of these moments in the dialogue, and I don't think bad translations are solely to blame. The dialogue is just badly written and disjointed.
There are also plenty of lines of the "explaining things that all the characters already know" and "recapping stuff that we just saw happen for no reason" variety.
3. Ridiculous themes that the show absolutely beats you over the head with. The female lead actually developed a pathological fear of guns because she shot an armed robber earlier in life, and is now playing this virtual reality game about guns as a kind of deep immersion therapy. Hey, the writers could get some interesting stuff out of that. But of course, they don't.
There's one part where the male lead tells the female lead something like "We have to fight as hard as we can and never give up, or else we don't deserve to live in this world." And I'm like: It's a damn video game. What the hell are you even talking about? That kind of weird comment might have made sense in the first plot arc of SAO, where the characters were actually trapped in a video game and could die permanently in any given fight, but it makes absolutely no damn sense here, in what is obviously just a normal video game.
And the villain's name is Death Gun. I literally burst out laughing when I heard that.
There are definitely some anime series that I love a lot and will defend, despite having a certain undeniable weirdness to them and sharing in (or subverting) weird anime tropes: Death Note, Madoka Magicka, Gankutsuou, Steins;gate and such. But a staggering portion of series seem to share in the problems outlines above. Films seem to fare a little better, with their higher budgets. I'm working on finishing my trip through Makoto Shinkai's movies.
Reading the manga up to chapter 30-ish, I could said that it's better than any shounen though. It just my friends now constantly saying that the quality significantly dropped.
Genre Deconstructions are practically a genre in itself with anime lol.
As for your first question I'd say, there's heaps. Anyone who can accept not 100% realistic shows like say Game of Thrones and Battlestar Galactica can easily accept a bunch of good anime, if they get over the animated part.
chicagocubsfan
Member
Well there's your problem.
BronsonLee
Member
Eh, I feel like my reservations are heavy plot related, so I won't drop tons of spoiler text in here. But basically; yes to a degree, but where they went with it was not what I wanted at all. Hence the mountain of salt I have for it
Confirmation Bias
Confirmation Bias
Confirmation Bias
Most of the people complaining about what anime is, don't know jack shit about it. I would love to know what most of the people in this thread who complain about anime have actually seen. There is shit in every medium. I don't judge Western TV by Big Bang Theory, Dexter, or Keeping Up With the Kardashians.
I'm sure many of you like Game of Thrones and guess what? Sexposition.
Confirmation Bias
Confirmation Bias
Most of the people complaining about what anime is, don't know jack shit about it. I would love to know what most of the people in this thread who complain about anime have actually seen. There is shit in every medium. I don't judge Western TV by Big Bang Theory, Dexter, or Keeping Up With the Kardashians.
I'm sure many of you like Game of Thrones and guess what? Sexposition.
Aaron-Lagann
Banned
I'm by no means an expert on conventions and my experience has just been that people are weirdos, but I can totally see where you're probably right. But, eh, just my experience.
As for the second bit, there's definite hate around. More than just it being popular. Like the multiple posters in this very thread saying that "anyone who likes anime has bad taste" or "All anime is terrible I don't understand how anyone could enjoy it." or claiming that it's all pedophile rape stuff. There's a lot of stigma and hate around anime.
HolyBaikal
Banned
Everyone is defensive about what they like. Of course they are, it's what makes them happy. It's very dear to them. What makes me happy is very dear to me, too. Cute anime things are an artistic representation of the happiness deep inside my heart. So it hurts when people say things against that.
A lot of people are judgmental, but I wish they weren't. I do think it isn't only anime that people are mean against. I like anime and a lot of people can be... not nice about that. A lot of people, even transgender people often can not be nice to genderqueer people. :<
This doesn't make things better, it kind of makes things worse in some ways. Because it means that not only are some people hateful about anime. But everything else I love most or who I am.
I just try to remember that while, unfortunately, while the world isn't perfect, they aren't everyone, and I shouldn't let them discourage me from me being me and being happy about what makes me happy.
I do wish that more people would like the things I enjoy. But I feel like a lot of the time it's better to focus on positivity and try to spread what I love rather than the negative stuff.
And actually, I probably shouldn't have come to this thread. It's making me a little sad. :<
A lot of people are judgmental, but I wish they weren't. I do think it isn't only anime that people are mean against. I like anime and a lot of people can be... not nice about that. A lot of people, even transgender people often can not be nice to genderqueer people. :<
This doesn't make things better, it kind of makes things worse in some ways. Because it means that not only are some people hateful about anime. But everything else I love most or who I am.
I just try to remember that while, unfortunately, while the world isn't perfect, they aren't everyone, and I shouldn't let them discourage me from me being me and being happy about what makes me happy.
I do wish that more people would like the things I enjoy. But I feel like a lot of the time it's better to focus on positivity and try to spread what I love rather than the negative stuff.
And actually, I probably shouldn't have come to this thread. It's making me a little sad. :<
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