andythinkpad
Member
Doesn't it matter what the answer is? America has lost huge cultural influence and the country itself is edging toward cultural civil war.
Is the United States defined by Donald Trump?
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He defines the country as much as any other president.
Voting in Trump isn't enough to define us. We'll have to wait and see wait long term impact he can have on this country and the world. He can run the gamut of being a lameduck to a major catalyst of change like every other president before him.
Voting in Trump isn't enough to define us. We'll have to wait and see wait long term impact he can have on this country and the world. He can run the gamut of being a lameduck to a major catalyst of change like every other president before him.
That doesn't mean anything. What would satisfy your conditions of people being harmed by a culture war?
LordKasual
Banned
this is quite extreme
We've got corrupt police, the occasional mental case with a gun, and a few communities of bigoted assholes with rifles who can't run a track loop but probably dream of fighting a glorious race war....civil war? lol nah.
Consider that the above was under a black president. What do you think will happen under a president who encourages such behaviour?
Nydius
Member
Extreme? Hardly.
I have never seen this country so culturally divided and so willing to fight each other over ANY little perceived transgression in my entire life, and I thought shit was bad during the combo-hit of Rodney King and the OJ Simpson Trial.
Both sides (but the GOP much moreso) have spent the last four decades waging a back and forth culture war and it's dangerously close to reaching an ignition point. Those "mental cases" are far more than just occasional and those bigoted communities are much more than "a few". There is no more measured discussion, everyone seems to take an either "you're with us or against us" mentality on EVERY topic. I'm surprised shit hasn't fully hit the fan yet.
I do not get this sentiment at all. Yes he lost the popular vote by a million or two but he still got 60+ million votes. This should not be used to talk down the fundamental problems of the US.
Buba Big Guns
Banned
He's the face of the government, and to many (most?) around the world, the US is defined by him.
Chaos2Frozen
Member
Yes of course. Do you think people around the world would realistically take the time to learn about every single way of life in America? You are judged by your head of state, doubly so if that person is elected democratically and not a dictator.
America is a country that elected one of the least qualified person to the highest position of power- That's how you would be defined by the world.
America is a country that elected one of the least qualified person to the highest position of power- That's how you would be defined by the world.
That's not really fair. The current populace isn't responsible for the electoral college, or the two part system or the Civil War. You can't really blame us for those things without blaming every country's current populace for everything that country has ever done. Are all Germans responsible for the rise of Hitler when the vast majority weren't even alive during WW2? Nobody left in the U.S. is responsible for any decision made at the signing of the constitution or fighting the Civil War. I significant portion of the population would get rid of the electoral college if they could but it would require a constitutional amendment which requires far too many people in government to likely ever happen again. A lot of people can be blamed for the rise of Trump and the normalization of Trump, I agree that many Americans participated in a culture that allowed him to rise. The fact that the majority of the government is run by Republicans has more to do with gerrymandering than anything else. They've manage to hijack the House predominantly because of this.
Americans have made a lot of mistakes but the majority of voting Americans did not ask for this. A significant number of Americans want stricter gun control. The majority support gay marriage. The majority don't support Muslim registration. Can we please stop pretending like this election represents the entirety or even the majority of the country? This election was an indictment or a broken election system that places a party with less support of the population in control of the government. Hilary won the popular vote by 3 million votes.
It's a broken system and there are still a disturbing amount of people in this country who at best are willing to look the other way to oppression and at worst actively participate in it. America has a ton of problems, but seeing as most of Europe seems to be in fairly immediate danger of electing conservative leaders I don't really see us as being completely an outlier.
Yep.
We need to recognize the fact that our democratic system was clearly capable of empowering a monster. That our economy, whose very foundations are unjust, empowered one of its elites in this demagogic terror and severed the rest of us from the possibility of the financial and intellectual capital to unify in opposition to him. Our liberal institutions: public schools, universities, social services, the Democratic party, which were established to empower some of us, continuously fall to the forces of regression caused by this bitter arrangement of state and capital.
The United States is defined by this failure. This is America, comrades. We don't need our own "MAGA" slogan to fool ourselves with.
We need to recognize the fact that our democratic system was clearly capable of empowering a monster. That our economy, whose very foundations are unjust, empowered one of its elites in this demagogic terror and severed the rest of us from the possibility of the financial and intellectual capital to unify in opposition to him. Our liberal institutions: public schools, universities, social services, the Democratic party, which were established to empower some of us, continuously fall to the forces of regression caused by this bitter arrangement of state and capital.
The United States is defined by this failure. This is America, comrades. We don't need our own "MAGA" slogan to fool ourselves with.
chillybright
Banned
I thought one of the main idea about America is that it can hardly be defined?
LordKasual
Banned
I can assure you...without a doubt, this country has been WAAAAAYYYY more culturally divided before than it is today.
And that "you're with us or against us" mentality is present on this very forum. And quite strongly too, even if so many of us would like to pretend like it isn't, or that it's somehow justified because our opinions are more "tolerable" or "morally right" or whatever. It just drives an equal reaction from those who disagree with you and ensure they'll shy away from your position before they try to learn about it.
Not all 60+ million people who voted for Trump are the kinds of people you're thinking they are. Trump is a moron, but you don't have to be a bigot (or support bigotry) to have voted for trump. That's just naive to believe...it's almost dangerous to believe. And, also, people need to just accept the fact that unintentional bigotry and true, deliberate bigotry come from two entirely different places and are not equal to one another. And treating people/discussions as if it is really is doing nobody any favors at all.
It sucks, and America (and the world) is in a scary period right now. But we aren't about to implode over this. At the very least...if you're Black, then there aint shit new happening in 2016 that hasn't been happening as far back as we can remember. It's always been shitty, we just have really good internet and cameras now.
Lord Frieza
Member
In the end, it doesn't matter, he got elected. He and the GOP are going to be totally unchecked, they proved they can take down anyone through propoganda, and the courts will be on their side for generations to come. It doesnt matter if America is defined by him, it will be by political force, if not military and police force by the end of it all.
No. America's problems has been there with multiple presidents come and go but the problems was never fixed, solutions have been nought/blocked. Obama couldn't do anything, Trump elected just exacerbated its flaws and very very blatant. Even if Trump wasn't elected sooner or later the problems will come out in full force.
I mean, we still have problems. But they've gotten a lot better. I can't think of a year in the past that I would define as objectively 'better' when it comes to the problems we face.
GuessMyUserName
Member
As a non-American living abroad among people from various other parts of the world, yes. He is the face of your country now.
Voysa Reezun
Banned
At least half of us hate him, so no.
I take the Rick Perlstein-influenced view that the United States is still defined by Richard Nixon. Trump exploited the red/blue divide that Nixon largely engineered during his presidency to sneak out a win...and I can't speak for other people, but I'm at the point where I have nothing but disgust and contempt for "the other side," which is fucked up and a real definition of this country in 2016.
I take the Rick Perlstein-influenced view that the United States is still defined by Richard Nixon. Trump exploited the red/blue divide that Nixon largely engineered during his presidency to sneak out a win...and I can't speak for other people, but I'm at the point where I have nothing but disgust and contempt for "the other side," which is fucked up and a real definition of this country in 2016.
scotcheggz
Member
OP I can relate to a lot of what you're dsying, despite the fact that I'm from the UK. With the recent Brexit vote, the weeks following I felt a really big disconnect, at the worst points, say the first few days after the vote, I felt like I'd lost my home. You like to think you're country as a whole is 'better than that' because it's not what you vote for or believe in. As time has gone by I've felt better about it and don't really think it defines the country, just a mood towaards politics and that this sort of thing has happened before and will happen again. Just like Brexit, Trump rustled up a lot of anger and it was easy to point fingers and call people dumb racists, until you calm down and accept that the majority are not, they're just fed up and have been pushed to a point in politics where the over riding factor is "you know what, fuck you establishment" and something needs to be done about that. I also grew up and live in a hugely liberal city (probably the most liberal in the UK) and have for some time considered that I'm naieve to the rest of the country because of it. In fact when I get together with my dad and talk politics and he often says just that.
yanipheonu
Member
No.
But, sadly, many people from other countries will judge America based on Trump.
You guys are having some major PR problems internationally, to drastically understate things.
But, sadly, many people from other countries will judge America based on Trump.
You guys are having some major PR problems internationally, to drastically understate things.
Poodlestrike
Banned
Yes and no.
Yes, in the sense that Trump's election speaks to a deeply disturbed portion of America, both in a cultural and structural sense. He's not defining that though, just... putting it into the light. It's sort of the dark mirror of how conservatives blame BLM for creating problems with the police, when in fact they just shone a spotlight on the abuse already there; they argue that cops only act rash because they feel that they're "under attack," when this behavior was already going on beforehand. Trump's election, similarly, shines a light on the deep moral and intellectual deficiencies of wide swaths of American voters, as well as the fundamental flaws underpinning our democracy. He'll also have the opportunity to further shape the nation in his image through appointments and legislation.
But, on the other hand, the orange bag of garbage lost by 2 million votes. That he won is a disaster, but he is NOT what the majority of Americans are for. Being President gives him a lot of power, but he doesn't get to be our singular voice, not if we don't let him. It's like how he's lived in Manhattan since forever, he's scarred the skyline with his hideous buildings, but goddamn it he was never accepted there. We don't have to accept him now. When he tries to make statements for you, push back. Make yourself heard, and be disruptive about it. If all you do is tweet you can be safely ignored. Participate in protests, bug the hell out of the staff answering your congressperson's phone by calling constantly, all that shit.
Yes, in the sense that Trump's election speaks to a deeply disturbed portion of America, both in a cultural and structural sense. He's not defining that though, just... putting it into the light. It's sort of the dark mirror of how conservatives blame BLM for creating problems with the police, when in fact they just shone a spotlight on the abuse already there; they argue that cops only act rash because they feel that they're "under attack," when this behavior was already going on beforehand. Trump's election, similarly, shines a light on the deep moral and intellectual deficiencies of wide swaths of American voters, as well as the fundamental flaws underpinning our democracy. He'll also have the opportunity to further shape the nation in his image through appointments and legislation.
But, on the other hand, the orange bag of garbage lost by 2 million votes. That he won is a disaster, but he is NOT what the majority of Americans are for. Being President gives him a lot of power, but he doesn't get to be our singular voice, not if we don't let him. It's like how he's lived in Manhattan since forever, he's scarred the skyline with his hideous buildings, but goddamn it he was never accepted there. We don't have to accept him now. When he tries to make statements for you, push back. Make yourself heard, and be disruptive about it. If all you do is tweet you can be safely ignored. Participate in protests, bug the hell out of the staff answering your congressperson's phone by calling constantly, all that shit.
KernelPanic
Member
Trump does shine a light on a despicable part of the country. Especially law enforcement.
http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_585b0041e4b0d9a594570f5a
When a Sheriff running a jail has 4 people(including a newborn) die on his watch and this is his response:
You really wonder whether stuff like this was going on before Trump came along
blue_phazon
Member
It doesn't define all of America, but it defines a portion of America large enough to deter me from ever moving there.
As a brown dude, no way
As a brown dude, no way
Trump does shine a light on a despicable part of the country. Especially law enforcement.
http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_585b0041e4b0d9a594570f5a
When a Sheriff running a jail has 4 people(including a newborn) die on his watch and this is his response:
You really wonder whether stuff like this was going on before Trump came along
What the fuck, they're "thinking" about opening an investigation? Jesus.
CyclopsRock
Member
No. I love going to the US, I go every opportunity I get (by March I'll have been every month for five months) and the things I love about it aren't going to change after Trump becomes President.
Of course it is. He's the leader of the country. He's all you guys talk about. He's the result of every problem the country has. To try and distance yourself away from him now is kinda impossible. Trump is America, for better or- nah, just for worse.
Hell, I'd say pretty much any country is defined by their leader, and we Brits didn't even elect ours.
Maybe not if they're a dictator. But even then that a country is a dictatorship is probably one of the few basic things people would know about it.
Hell, I'd say pretty much any country is defined by their leader, and we Brits didn't even elect ours.
Maybe not if they're a dictator. But even then that a country is a dictatorship is probably one of the few basic things people would know about it.
CyclopsRock
Member
I don't really understand how you can say that about the democratic west when leaders rise and fall every five or ten years yet the countries remain largely the same, especially from an outsider's perspective. Is Norway defined by its leader? When someone says "France" to you, is the image conjured up in your brain different now under Hollande compared to under Sarkozy? LA makes films, New York makes theatre, Chicago makes shit pizza etc whether the President is Clinton, Bush jr or Obama, and they'll continue to do so under Trump. There will be people's lives that change, significantly in some case, as a result of his presidency, but enough to redefine how you see the country?
It's not about being defined as Trump. 50% of the population voted for him, which means that they: 1-agree with his views or 2-don't care about his views
The best comment I read about the election was someone saying "I voted for Hillary because for me being an open racist / xenophobic is too much, it crossed a line. People that vote for Trump aren't necessarily racist and xenophobic, but they for sure don't care about it. For them it's fine if you are a racist, they wont treat you differently: they will even vote for you.
BWT: this is kind of thinking is what ultimately led to the Brexit.
The best comment I read about the election was someone saying "I voted for Hillary because for me being an open racist / xenophobic is too much, it crossed a line. People that vote for Trump aren't necessarily racist and xenophobic, but they for sure don't care about it. For them it's fine if you are a racist, they wont treat you differently: they will even vote for you.
BWT: this is kind of thinking is what ultimately led to the Brexit.
RoadHazard
Gold Member
It will define a lot of how the US acts internationally (and domestically) and how it's viewed by the outside world, even if it doesn't actually define the US population. Many of us here in Europe fear that we've lost one of our strongest allies, we fear that the international climate work (and thus the planet) is fucked, we fear nuclear escalation, etc. That's all because of this election result.
TatteredHat
Member
Yes, just as it was previously defined by Obama this is the new face that the American people chose.
Monocle
Member
What's the second most racist country?
RoadHazard
Gold Member
He is a symptom and (will become) a problem.
cartoon_soldier
Member
Yes, he is the President. He is the view of US for the foreign world.
weepingangelz
Banned
edit: i was wrong
jellies_two
Member
Probably will be defined by how you react to him.
Do you let him screw around and reward him with another term, or is he hamstrung from the start and can't get anything too bad actually done? It's a good test to see if the system of checks and balances is still working.
Do you let him screw around and reward him with another term, or is he hamstrung from the start and can't get anything too bad actually done? It's a good test to see if the system of checks and balances is still working.
What a fucking lie of a statement. It objectively is more popular. Did you not notice the photoshoot the LA Times did of Richard Spencer? The interviews that guy got all over the internet, the rise of Tomi Lahren, Steve Bannon being an advisor to Trump, Trump himself saying "I don't know who that is" in response to David Duke?
Camp Freddie
Member
America is defined as the place where a man like Donald Trump can become president.
It's a place where celebrity, shrill opinions, hot takes and demagoguery are more appealing than taking time to think things through (and that applies to the progressives too)
Trump himself isn't the issue, since he'll be gone in 4 years. And somewhere as diverse as America can't be defined by one thing.
It's also the place where a black man can be president, so we won't forget about that.
I'm British and fully aware that my country is defined as the place that thinks it deserves special treatment because we won two world wars and one world cup.
It's a place where celebrity, shrill opinions, hot takes and demagoguery are more appealing than taking time to think things through (and that applies to the progressives too)
Trump himself isn't the issue, since he'll be gone in 4 years. And somewhere as diverse as America can't be defined by one thing.
It's also the place where a black man can be president, so we won't forget about that.
I'm British and fully aware that my country is defined as the place that thinks it deserves special treatment because we won two world wars and one world cup.
Also, 4 years is a long time and the rest of the world defines the United States as the United States. If Trump nukes the middle east, it'll be seen as the United States nuking the middle east. We own him and everything he does, and people who were onboard with him will have to answer to history if we actually manage to survive long enough to see it written.
StrategyFan
Member
"american" is a pretty useless descriptor for people in 2016. the people from counties that voted overwhelmingly for trump and counties that voted overwhelmingly against him might as well be from separate countries. they just happen to live in the same greater geopolitical region
StrongBlackVine
Banned
No.
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