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Is the ZOE series officially dead?

W

Wario64

works for Gamestop (lol)
I hope it isn't dead. Itagaki seemed to express some interest in a ZoE sequel (mentioned in EGM, but I think it was referring to ZoE2)


ZoE2 fucking rocked too. I'd go as far as to say it's one of my favorite action games this gen.
 
M

MarkRyan

Sam Houser fucked my wife
Wario64 said:
Itagaki seemed to express some interest in a ZoE sequel
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I want a ZoE sequel more than anyone, but if Itagaki has anything to do with it I'd rather it was never made.

ZoE2 is the best game this generation by far.
 
D

drohne

hyperbolically metafictive
sigh. if the first one hadn't made such a bad impression on so many people, perhaps the second one would have done better. it deserved to. zoe2 is one of the few best 3d action games ever. and certainly it's the most 3d.
 
M

MarkRyan

Sam Houser fucked my wife
Miburou said:
The camera was a real pain in the ass, though.
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This isn't the first time I've read this complaint, but I don't believe it at all--I had zero problems with the camera. In fact, I thought the game's camera was pretty revolutionary.
 
M

Mrbob

Member
ZoE camera OK. ZoE 2 camera, not as good. Sometimes too confusing with multiple enemies. Game overall smacks the first one though. I need to pick up ZoE2 now that i can find it on the cheap. Worth it for the hawt intro alone.
 
B

Brannon

Member
ZoE2 just trumps part 1 right from the beginning and gets better and better until *--THE MOMENT--* when it finally destroys the last vestiges of what was its predecessor, and stays at that level until the very end. Very few games can do that I find.

But I agree that ZoE1 killed the series. Damn it all.
 
P

pilonv1

Member
Wario64 said:
I still can't believe Edge Magazine gave ZoE2 a 4/10. 4/10. What the hell
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I'm sure such a quotable person as yourself would have read the review first before complaining about the score!
 
W

Wario64

works for Gamestop (lol)
pilonv1 said:
I'm sure such a quotable person as yourself would have read the review first before complaining about the score!
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Is the review online? I don't have the magazine
 
C

Crazymoogle

Member
Without getting into 'if' a sequel should be made, the series does appear to be designed to bookend on ZOE2. ZOE1, ZOE Dolores, and ZOE Fist of Mars were all built to lead right up to the moment ZOE2 begins, and ZOE2 ends pretty conclusively, even reshaping the books on the solar system.

So while a new game is always a possibility, It's not an obvious, pressing need. (except in the matter that the game kicks ass and I'd love to see more)
 
M

ManDudeChild

Member
Crazymoogle said:
Without getting into 'if' a sequel should be made, the series does appear to be designed to bookend on ZOE2. ZOE1, ZOE Dolores, and ZOE Fist of Mars were all built to lead right up to the moment ZOE2 begins, and ZOE2 ends pretty conclusively, even reshaping the books on the solar system.

So while a new game is always a possibility, It's not an obvious, pressing need. (except in the matter that the game kicks ass and I'd love to see more)
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???
 
P

Pedigree Chum

Banned
drohne said:
sigh. if the first one hadn't made such a bad impression on so many people, perhaps the second one would have done better. it deserved to. zoe2 is one of the few best 3d action games ever. and certainly it's the most 3d.
Click to expand...

Yup, people just wouldn't give the second one a chance after the missfire that was the first one. Too bad, the casuals missied big time.
 
P

pilonv1

Member
From issue #123, which had the Wind Waker review (9/10), and Xenosaga (7/10). Keep in mind Edge are notoriously hard on poor cameras.

Playing The 2nd Runner is purgatorial. Which is surprising, because the original ZOE frequently erred on the side of the divine during its all too brief lifespan. Not that The 2nd Runner has substantially improved upon the brevity of its predecessor (although it is a marginally longer game), but it has significantly stepped up the difficulty level. Unfortunately though, ith has done so on an arbitrary basis, with the forking mission structure of the original giving way to the sort of boss-heavy composition that characterises the game's stable mate, Metal Gear Solid 2, though without any of the panache. Indeed it's remarkable that nearly all of the strongest features of the original ZOE have been disposed of, because the new additions are, by and large, pretty disappointing.

For a start, whereas combat was balletic in ZOE, in The Second Runner it's simply spastic. A lurching lock-on system sends the camera cereering wildly whenever you switch targets and consequently robs combat of any spatial continuity. Which is bizarre because the targeting lock system worked fine in ZOE. Combat has also been complicated by the inclusion of a dash weapon, theoretically capable of taking out multiple targets, but practically hampered by the dodgy camera.

And the fighting is further undermined by the enlarged scope of subweapons. Again, in theory, these can be cylced through to provide relief for specific situations (such as slowing down speedy enemies, or piercing enemy shields) but in practice, they're redundant on two counts. The first is that the basic subweapon, grab, is almost always the most useful, whatever the circumstance. The second is that your onboard AI, ADA, can, over the course of play, start to automatically choose "appropriate" subweapons automatically. It's a bit like a futuristic version of Word's paperclip assistant but - if you can imagine this - even more annoying.

Also annoying is the shift towards a boss-heavy structure. Quite apart from curtailing the freedom offered by the original ZOE, bosses in The 2nd Runner are rather limp compared to their forebears, requiring patience rather than any degree of skill. And then there are those long cut-scenes, offering the same, inexplicably convoluted, plotting that characterises the other ZOE titles.

So in spite of the games visual splendor, it's abitter disappointment compared to it's predecessor.
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They do mention in one of the image captions that the action is undeniably pretty if you can stand the camera. Anyway let the hate begin.
 
P

Pedigree Chum

Banned
pil, that's cool of you to write out the entire review. This thread has gone off into a weird tangent, I like. But the fact that ZOE3 will probably never be made is what I don't like :(
 
T

Tellaerin

Member
MarkRyan said:
I want a ZoE sequel more than anyone, but if Itagaki has anything to do with it I'd rather it was never made.
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You're just hell-bent on squandering what little bit of credibility you have, aren't you? :p Ninja Gaiden's proven Itagaki's ability to design compelling action games. I seriously doubt that a ZoE sequel produced by Team Ninja would be lacking. And unlike you, as long as a game is good, I don't care who produced it.
 
C

Crazymoogle

Member
Wario64 said:
ZOE Dolores is the anime, I think?
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Yeah. Here's the more complex look:

ZOE: Idolo: Anime OVA covers the creation of the Orbital Frame and how it can screw some people up (such as Nohman) This is the first event in the timeline and leads directly into both ZOE1 and ZOE: Dolores, i. Great, short little OVA, which explains why it was packed in with the limited edition package of ZOE1. Both anime series are fully available in North America.

ZOE: Dolores, i: Anime Series covers the fight between Earth, Mars, and the renegade Orbital Frame Dolores. The timeline starts before ZOE1 but jumps forward a bit as Nohman and Anubis pop up a few times, and the show ends when Aumaan is being completed. Definitely some filler and bizarre comedy, but does a good job of connecting to the games towards the end (for example, showing Nohman and how crazy/power-mad he is compared to the rest of BAHRAM).

For some bizarre reason, ADV didn't bother to check with Konami on how names should be translated, so they mistranslated everything in the dub and sub. Even well known real-life places on Mars were mistranslated. So if you hear a name that's "sort of like:" BAHRAM, it is.

ZOE 1: Recovery of Jehuty. As everybody knows, Leo can't do squat about Anubis and is forced to retreat. Konami has some great illustrated segments online to cover what happens to Jehuty and Leo between ZOE1 and ZOE2, as well as the acquisition of the Vic Viper.

ZOE: Fist of Mars: GBA game that is actually more anime than game (with one of the best localizations I can remember and a story/artwork done by Anime studio SUNRISE). The game basically covers what happens with the rest of the BAHRAM forces that you don't see Nohman using. Ends just before ZOE2 starts, and in the ending alludes to the ace in the hole (Jehuty).

The gameplay is shallow to the point of nearly being broken, but the story is good enough to hold the game up.
 
M

MarkRyan

Sam Houser fucked my wife
Tellaerin said:
You're just hell-bent on squandering what little bit of credibility you have, aren't you? :p Ninja Gaiden's proven Itagaki's ability to design compelling action games. I seriously doubt that a ZoE sequel produced by Team Ninja would be lacking. And unlike you, as long as a game is good, I don't care who produced it.
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Of course I wouldn't care who produced a game as long as it's good. But Itagaki does not produce good games. He produces slightly better than mediocre games with outstanding graphics. ZoE2 is much more than that.

And regarding that ZoE2 review--holy crap. I disagree with almost every single sentence it contains.
 
S

SolidSnakex

Member
The reason there's no need for Team Ninja to make a ZOE is because Murata's already proven he can make an awesome version of it. When they replaced Okamura (ZOE's director) it made sense considering that ZOE was lacking alot. ZOE2 ended up being what most people expected ZOE to be.
 
T

Tellaerin

Member
SolidSnakex said:
The reason there's no need for Team Ninja to make a ZOE is because Murata's already proven he can make an awesome version of it.
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You're right. :) My point was that if Itagaki and Team Ninja were ever given the opportunity to develop a ZoE sequel, it'd hardly be the train wreck MarkRyan's implying.
 
M

MarkRyan

Sam Houser fucked my wife
Tellaerin said:
You're right. :) My point was that if Itagaki and Team Ninja were ever given the opportunity to develop a ZoE sequel, it'd hardly be the train wreck MarkRyan's implying.
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It wouldn't be worth playing with ZoE2 in existence. That is certain.
 
T

Tellaerin

Member
Pedigree Chum said:
I agree that Itagaki makes shit games (NG included). I don't want him anywhere near the ZOE franchise.
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I hate to say this, but nothing Itagaki's done in his career has been as poor as the original ZoE, so saying you don't want him near 'the ZOE franchise' is laughable. A game that managed to be both too short and include too much aimless wandering, a protagonist that was nothing more than an Amuro Rey clone with twice the whininess and none of the charisma, and a game mechanic that forced you to fight ultra-conservatively to minimize damage to your surroundings when most players would rather be doing anything but... the first ZoE was a textbook example of wasted potential. Even if this hypothetical sequel turned out worse than ZoE2 (which I doubt), it still wouldn't be the worst game in the series. :p

MarkRyan said:
It wouldn't be worth playing with ZoE2 in existence. That is certain.
Click to expand...

Nothing is ever certain. :)
 
P

Pedigree Chum

Banned
Tellaerin said:
I hate to say this, but nothing Itagaki's done in his career has been as poor as the original ZoE, so saying you don't want him near 'the ZOE franchise' is laughable. A game that managed to be both too short and include too much aimless wandering, a protagonist that was nothing more than an Amuro Rey clone with twice the whininess and none of the charisma, and a game mechanic that forced you to fight ultra-conservatively to minimize damage to your surroundings when most players would rather be doing anything but... the first ZoE was a textbook example of wasted potential. Even if this hypothetical sequel turned out worse than ZoE2 (which I doubt), it still wouldn't be the worst game in the series. :p
Click to expand...

Still rather play the original ZOE over any of Itagaki's games.
 
S

Solid

Member
Probably dead yeah :(

I really like both ZOE1 and ZOE2. ZOE2 is my favorite action game this gen. Every chance I get I try to pimp ZOE2 to my friends IRL and on the net. The game needs more appreciation. And all the reviewers can eat my shit! No fucking way ZOE2 is worth 4/10!

Gah.... *takes medicin*
 
P

Pedigree Chum

Banned
nitewulf said:
original ZOE was pretty boring and easy though, same 3 enemy types repeated. play that over ninja gaiden...
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I've played Ninja Gaiden, and for some reason I really don't like it. I loved Devil May Cry, which is in the same vein as NG....but I dunno, I just didn't derive any fun out of NG, or any Itagaki games for that matter. ZOE1, I atleast enjoyed the mechanics of the game.
 
E

ElyrionX

Member
Unfortunately, as good as I think Ninja Gaiden is, I don't believe Itagaki can pull off a ZOE sequel that does justice to ZOE2.........
 
D

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
I really disagree with that Edge review...but that's their opinion.

Also, what's the deal with the Ninja Gaiden hate? I really did not care for any of Team Ninja's previous games, but NG was fantastic. As much as I loved ZOE2, I think Gaiden was a much better game overall...
 
S

Solid

Member
I skipped NG because of the hard difficulty. I can't stand frustrating games. Looks very cool though.
 
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