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Is there any sane place on earth left where your skills and ideas are more worth than racial politics and social justice?
- Thread starter Starfield
- Start date
Dr.Guru of Peru
played the long game
You are incorrect.
Employment equity (Canada) - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
Employment equity in Canada looks at race, gender, aboriginal status and individuals with disabilities. I thought sexual preference was codified but was incorrect on that.
When I was on the hiring committee we had a survey where we assigned (or detracted) points based on employment equity criteria. In Toronto white males were and are routinely disqualified from municipal, provincial and federal jobs due to employment equity criteria. These racist and sexist hiring practices also extend to third party social services organizations that are funded by the three layers of government. It’s particularly ironic given that white males of British descent (WASPS) are already a minority themselves in the Toronto. Total whites in Toronto including non WASP’s is less than 50% of the city population. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto#Demographics
Note: for those of you not from Canada, government jobs are difficult to obtain and are akin to winning the lottery by many in terms of pay, benefits, time off, unionized job security and a defined benefit pension. Equivalent jobs in the private sector pay significantly less.
Government jobs are not easy to get, but with Employment equity criteria, are basically impossible to get if white male In a “diverse” Canadian city with competition for these jobs. In general, white or not, people applying for these positions have the credentials. Canadian Immigration has ensured we get the cream of the crop, and cities like Toronto have second and third generation Canadians who are given a huge advantage due to employment equity hiring policies.
It’s systemic actually, real systemic racist policies. How ironic right?
Toronto is like no other city I’ve lived and been to though. When I say Toronto is diverse, I mean like white peeps are a slightly bigger minority but still just a minority. It’s not at all like say Vancouver that’s 33% mungee cake (wasp), 33% chinese and 33% Indian, and not at all like US cities that still have majority white and/or black populations even with minorities mixed in.
Mea culpa, but the basic point still stands. The effect is small, and doesn't apply to most people since our two biggest immigrant groups (Asians and South Asians) are not underrepresented in the work force.
You've even contradicted yourself. A place like Toronto is less likely to have unfair hiring practices since there are a plethora of minority candidates. The workforce is already tremendously diverse. We have one of the most highly educated population in the world, and our immigrant population is even more educated than the local populace. White guys not getting jobs doesn't mean they're being actively discriminated against, it just means that it's a very competitive job market. You're focused on your own plight and assumed its because of the colour of your skin, but ignoring the hundreds of brown and yellow people who are in the exact same position and also had to move out to the middle of nowhere to get a job.
Your demographic numbers for Vancouver are also way off.
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Starfield
Member
can you lend me the money for it?
I'd have a lot of great ideas (not merely talking about business ideas)....IF I HAD THE MONEY TO DO SO.
You can only get more money by already having alot of money
Mr Nash
square pies = communism
Construction sites? A lot of this stuff is happening in white collar spaces. Blue collar, people get in, do their job, and GTFO. That's it. It'll be interesting to see what happens with all this work from home stuff. HR departments can't enforce "corporate cultures" if people aren't coming into an office
eddie4
Genuinely Generous
Pretty much, start your own business and surround yourself with the people you want, this is the only guaranteed way.
As far as money goes, if you have great ideas, there are angel investors out there who will just give you the cash if the idea is worth something, but you have to convince them, which is the hard part.
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Liberty4all
Banned
A competitive job market where white males are actively discriminated against via systemic racist hiring policies.
Your logic makes zero sense —
As I have already proven public sector jobs in Canada DO have highly discriminatory hiring policies, codified into law. If anything this is the REAL systemic racism the left constantly cries about. Just because Toronto is super diverse doesn’t make those laws any less discriminatory. All things being equal, if two equally qualified candidates, one white and one a visible minority apply for the same job, employment equity will be what tips the scales. And in Toronto, as you mentioned yourself, the vast majority regardless of race, are highly educated, have credentials and experience. So no you are wrong — in Toronto white males are far far MORE likely to face systemic discrimination in a situation of a highly competitive job market with many visible minority applicants and a hiring process that legally discriminates based on race and sex.
Trotting out the old tired eQuAlItY fEeLs lIKe oPpResSiOn is a laughable argument in the face of provable discrimination. Like Yuri said though ... see 2:50. Authentic accurate information means nothing to the indoctrinated. It’s sad really.
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TGO
Hype Train conductor. Works harder than it steams.
10 years experience, Level 2 NVQ in Healthcare services, 8 month's training in Pharmaceutical.
Was made redundant and lost most my hours.
Job opened up in pharmacy for what I had been training for, the future was bright!
Just needed to take the test..
Job given to inexperienced none straight male that I had to help train...
I was sent to different departments during COVID for support, came back to minimal hours and duties that involves cleaning up after everyone..
Was made redundant and lost most my hours.
Job opened up in pharmacy for what I had been training for, the future was bright!
Just needed to take the test..
Job given to inexperienced none straight male that I had to help train...
I was sent to different departments during COVID for support, came back to minimal hours and duties that involves cleaning up after everyone..
JordanN
Banned
It's a good thing you quoted my post. Because I'm not a fan of people who accuse me of being wrong without evidence.
But it was a job in Halifax, Nova Scotia and it clearly said no Native Canadians, immigrants preferred for bio engineering.
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
Halifax has 400,000 people and the total minority number is about 44,000. So in total about 11% are minorities and 89% white.It's a good thing you quoted my post. Because I'm not a fan of people who accuse me of being wrong without evidence.
But it was a job in Halifax, Nova Scotia and it clearly said no Native Canadians, immigrants preferred for bio engineering.
Who knew this 11% were hurting for jobs, and the city is willing to prioritize race over qualifications for a medical job.
What a world we live in.
Halifax, NS - Demographics | Townfolio
View Halifax datasets such as: population breakdown with historical's and projections, age breakdown, ethnicities, gender, marital status, household income, expenditures and more.
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JordanN
Banned
I mean, I live in the GTA and ride the bus everyday, I see signs that literally say "New to Canada? You get free money/help". Whether it's from the banks or an immigration agency.
Or just recently, Justin Trudeau literally announced he is given away millions of dollars only to black businesses.
Trudeau announces cash for loans, support to Black Canadian entrepreneurs
Black Canadians who want to start or expand a business will have access to loans and supports for training and mentorship under a new federal program unveiled by Prime Minister Justin Trudeau in Toronto Wednesday.
www.ctvnews.ca
I can speak for
Liberty4all
and say there is indeed something "funky" going on with the hiring process.
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Kamina
Golden Boy
Employing based on equality is just causing the opposite. Its actively against the view that all humans are fundamentally equal.
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Mohonky
Member
It depends on the job.
Some jobs straight up require you have a relevant degree. That's just the way it works. Many decades ago experience would have won out (my old man was a Project Manager in charge of the construction of sites that cost hundreds of millions of dollars and he never even finished highschool), but now for various reasons yes, many fields require a degree.
A degree doesn't mean you get a job though, some employers want qualified (have the degree) but also experience which is bit of a catch 22, noone willing to take you on to get the experience despite the fact you have the study behind you to say you should be qualified to do the job.
Then there's the 'who you know' not 'what you know' and just being in the right place at the right time.
There is no straight up 'I got the job because I deserved it.' Working hard just increases your chances of getting the job,it doesn't guarantee it.
Some jobs straight up require you have a relevant degree. That's just the way it works. Many decades ago experience would have won out (my old man was a Project Manager in charge of the construction of sites that cost hundreds of millions of dollars and he never even finished highschool), but now for various reasons yes, many fields require a degree.
A degree doesn't mean you get a job though, some employers want qualified (have the degree) but also experience which is bit of a catch 22, noone willing to take you on to get the experience despite the fact you have the study behind you to say you should be qualified to do the job.
Then there's the 'who you know' not 'what you know' and just being in the right place at the right time.
There is no straight up 'I got the job because I deserved it.' Working hard just increases your chances of getting the job,it doesn't guarantee it.
Richard Packer
Gold Member
It's a good thing you quoted my post. Because I'm not a fan of people who accuse me of being wrong without evidence.
But it was a job in Halifax, Nova Scotia and it clearly said no Native Canadians, immigrants preferred for bio engineering.
This job posting doesn't say that at all or does it say positions are guaranteed. They still would have to go through the hiring process and would have to be qualified. I don't see where it says someone who is not qualified can't apply.
Being at the front of the line doesn't mean you will get hired if you're not qualified. Or that if someone else comes along and is over qualified won't get it. It's not a race.
JordanN
Banned
So why make it a preference at all?
Also, I'm not sure when have qualifications ever mattered for diversity hires.
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Richard Packer
Gold Member
JordanN
Banned
That didn't answer my question.
Richard Packer
Gold Member
I don't have all the answers. We don't know who got hired either. For all we know that blurb at the end was meaningless.
Can you answer my question now?
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JordanN
Banned
That's hilarious.
Might as well say nothing exists either. It's a job ad, not a fairy tale book.
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Dr.Guru of Peru
played the long game
The post you made proved that there is a push for equity in federally regulated jobs. This doesn’t mean that white prior are systematically discriminated against in the hiring process - a push towards equity could simply mean advertising for a position more heavily in certain communities, for example. You also seem to think this is a phenomenon that only affects white people: any push towards equity through a hiring policy would discriminate against our two largest immigrant groups, who are over represented in that many of our science and computer based professions. It’s a proven fact that immigrants and their children have higher education attainment than native born Canadians. If an immigrant beat you out for a job they were likely just better.
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JordanN
Banned
So now foreign education is better than Western ones?
Interesting.
Why do we still see millions of people move here then if they all have better skills? Why take OUR jobs and not create their own?
Dr.Guru of Peru
played the long game
Yes, there are agencies (public and private) that are designed to help immigrants. Is that what this thread is about now?I mean, I live in the GTA and ride the bus everyday, I see signs that literally say "New to Canada? You get free money/help". Whether it's from the banks or an immigration agency.
Or just recently, Justin Trudeau literally announced he is given away millions of dollars only to black businesses.
Trudeau announces cash for loans, support to Black Canadian entrepreneurs
Black Canadians who want to start or expand a business will have access to loans and supports for training and mentorship under a new federal program unveiled by Prime Minister Justin Trudeau in Toronto Wednesday.www.ctvnews.ca
I can speak for
Dr.Guru of Peru
played the long game
Please stop quoting me if you’re going to be this much of a moron.
These are second generation immigrants. They were born here. They have Canadian education.
Richard Packer
Gold Member
I'm really curious what you do for a living.
As I am an immigrant. Who has become very successful on the merits of my hard work. There are so many opportunities out there. Just as long as you're willing to work hard.
JordanN
Banned
Look up phrasing.
If they were born here, they're not really an immigrant.
Dr.Guru of Peru said:
Dr.Guru of Peru
played the long game
whatever. It’s not like the Dracula guy knows where these people he resents were born anyways. All he has to go with is the colour of their skin.
That's a hell of a claim to make.
"Discrimination can't exist here. Oh by the way Immigrants are just superior to you, so thats why they got the job. Don't ask questions."
Dr.Guru of Peru
played the long game
If a group of people (A) is generally more qualified than another group (B), then there really isn’t anything peculiar about someone from A beating out someone from B.
Never said you can’t ask any questions. Most public sector jobs allow you to retrieve your application through the privacy act. Bizarre post.
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torontoperson
Neo Member
If the workforce is not representative of the population distribution can we safely assume that there is some discrimination - i.e. if caucasians are overrepresented in various industries and the public sector (accounting for age and the rest of it), especially in leadership positions, does that indicate some form of systemic bias or is that just cause caucasians are more qualified in general?
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torontoperson
Neo Member
And for reals - there's like a 100 studies out there re minority sounding names getting about 50% fewer callbacks for interviews and such... here's one - https://hbswk.hbs.edu/item/minorities-who-whiten-job-resumes-get-more-interviews
quickwhips
Member
I hire on skills and ideas. The thing is when you hire the best your team looks diverse. Its weird that people arent focusing on talent instead of race. I hired a 73 year old guy because he was amazing at powershell.
Liberty4all
Banned
employment equity policies are catch all that do not take into account population demographics. They were originally designed in a time when caucasIan’s were indeed the majority of the population in Toronto and most gov jobs were filled with caucasian boomers.
that is no longer the case at least in Toronto where total Caucasians is 47% of the city population and WASPS (“old stock” Canadians) much less than that.
'Everybody fits in': inside the Canadian cities where minorities are the majority
In ‘majority-minority’ cities such as Markham and Brampton, diversity isn’t aspirational; it’s a fact. But how does integration work?
www.theguardian.com
Even if this were not the case I would still be dead set against these type of racist hiring policies. Many US cities are where Toronto used to be .... an older caucasian majority in the process of dying out or moving out, with affirmative action policies in place actively discriminating against their kids. Toronto is just further ahead on the curve.
I believe in the best candidate for the job full stop. Race and sex should NEVER be used in the hiring criteria. Society needs to focus on Equality of Opportunity rather than justifying the racism of Equality of Outcomes.
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Liberty4all
Banned
as I mentioned earlier I sat on hiring committees where they literally awarded points off visible minority or not and if a woman or not. These two categories were weighted in an overall point system that awarded or subtracted points for normal things like education and experience, but also for fucked up things like race and gender. We would add up the points at end of interviews and lower scores candidates didn’t make the cut.
In highly competitive positions white males never made the cut due to losing points based on race and gender.
torontoperson
Neo Member
See the problem here is this - the best candidates for the job are not necessarily getting those jobs because of systemic bias (against minorities, women, etc) in hiring processes, as a result of which these equity policies were created to offset this bias. Are you saying that caucausians are not over-represented in government at every level - because this is simply not true, and especially not the case when it comes to management / leadership.employment equity policies are catch all that do not take into account population demographics. They were originally designed in a time when caucasIan’s were indeed the majority of the population in Toronto and most gov jobs were filled with caucasian boomers.
that is no longer the case at least in Toronto where total Caucasians is 47% of the city population and WASPS (“old stock” Canadians) much less than that.
'Everybody fits in': inside the Canadian cities where minorities are the majority
In ‘majority-minority’ cities such as Markham and Brampton, diversity isn’t aspirational; it’s a fact. But how does integration work?
Even if this were not the case I would still be dead set against these type of racist hiring policies. Many US cities are where Toronto used to be .... an older caucasian majority in the process of dying out or moving out, with affirmative action policies in place actively discriminating against their kids. Toronto is just further ahead on the curve.
I believe in the best candidate for the job full stop. Race and sex should NEVER be used in the hiring criteria. Society needs to focus on Equality of Opportunity rather than justifying the racism of Equality of Outcomes.
Edited to add: I know about the Province and the City so I'm referring to the make-up of those employees, I don't know enough about the Federal government.
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Liberty4all
Banned
definitely... entrepreneurship or working in a privately owned company is key imho.
I changed careers getting as far away from the public sector as I could.
torontoperson
Neo Member
Here's some receipts re the Province - compare the % of caucasians in government versus the % of caucasians in the Province - https://www.ontario.ca/page/2018-ops-employee-experience-survey-results#section-14 and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Ontario - yes the surveys cover two different time periods, but that makes my argument even stronger - as you say the % of caucasians has decreased year on year so it's surely under the 67% as measured in the 2011 census. But 74% of the Province's workforce was white in 2018. See my point?
torontoperson
Neo Member
Re TPS - look at page 6 here - https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2017/ex/bgrd/backgroundfile-99623.pdf - simply put minorities are underrepresented in the public sector because of discriminatory (not necessarily deliberate) hiring practices. Are you going to pivot to saying that the caucasian population is just more qualified in general? Well, this goes against your previous argument re Canada taking the cream of crop - immigrants who come here are generally more educated than the population on average. So why don't we see at least proportionate representation??
Liberty4all
Banned
i do not have the stats but I believe not in Toronto. The original demographic makeup of the public sector was not due to bias it was due to demographics — up until the 80s Toronto was a majority white city by far And the public sector reflected that. Edit: the makeup in Toronto is totally different from the rest of the province. Outside of Toronto and GTA the rest of the province is massively majority caucasian
Fast forward 40 years and the makeup of the city and public sector has changed drastically. But the racist and sexist hiring policies of employment equity remain.
Overall in the federal public sector outside of Toronto (overall in Canada), women are now dominating (See attached img).
Again, whether or not Caucasians or men at some point dominated is besides the point. Racism and sexism will never be resolved with retargeted racism and sexism. Equality of opportunity should be key. The current employment equity system resolves so called imbalances by actively discriminating against new younger applicants.
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torontoperson
Neo Member
Caucasians dominate RIGHT NOW.... As a side note you've linked stats related to the Federal government - but you're definitely right, women are overrepresented at all levels of government. However, minorities - racilized and indigenous folk - are underrepresented. No two ways about that.i do not have the stats but I believe not in Toronto. The original demographic makeup of the public sector was not due to bias it was due to demographics — up until the 80s Toronto was a majority white city by far And the public sector reflected that.
Fast forward 40 years and the makeup of the city and public sector has changed drastically. But the racist and sexist hiring policies of employment equity remain.
Overall in the federal public sector outside of Toronto (overall in Canada), women are now dominating (See attached img).
Again, whether or not Caucasians or men at some point dominated is besides the point. Racism and sexism will never be resolved with retargeted racism and sexism. Equality of opportunity should be key. The current employment equity system resolves so called imbalances by actively discriminating against new younger applicants.
I agree re this "The original demographic makeup of the public sector was not due to bias it was due to demographics" However Caucausians, as I've shown, are still overrepresented - and hence these equity policies are in place to right that balance. I agree that given the numbers on men vs women they should probably rethink that particular aspect of the policy.
torontoperson
Neo Member
And as I showed here: "look at page 6 here - https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2017/ex/bgrd/backgroundfile-99623.pdf " - your statement re this "i do not have the stats but I believe not in Toronto" is not true when it comes to minorities (not counting women here, as I said that piece should be looked at).
Liberty4all
Banned
it is notoriously difficult to get fired in the public service ... some would say next to impossible. So overall there are indeed a lot of older white people in the process of graying out. The discrimination via employment equity is happening at the entry level of employment.
I actually agree that representation should be proportionate — but this should happen naturally based on hiring practices that focus on hiring the best candidate for the job, rather than racist and sexist employment equity mandates.
torontoperson
Neo Member
Uhm when it is not happening naturally - due to biases that are inherent in the system (look up the 1000 odd studies on names and how they affect callbacks for interviews) - then you don't think we should work to make the system less biased?
Re older employees, I hear ya that is a fair argument.
Liberty4all
Banned
Make applications blind (name blanked out and gender not indicated). They will never do that though despite that it’s been suggested many times in the past. If anything we are moving towards a more information system (LinkedIn with full pictures) of hiring candidates.
DragoonWalker
Member
Right now minorities have special status or at least a select number have an advantage being diversity hires out of employer fear of being called out. Fear is never the ideal motivator. However, we know historically that there was a time when different minorities were excluded on purpose. I'm sure that happens today still, even as these aggressive countermeasures are in place.
I'd like to think people of a younger generation are more open minded and have less prejudice against race, that even without these mandates skilled people regardless of race or gender will get the job. That means sometimes diversity will happen, other times there won't be much and we have to accept that. And things won't always be fair, as some people will always be more tribal. It'll require a lot of faith in humanity, in each other, something we as a society don't have right now. I don't think we'll ever find a balance to be honest.
I'd like to think people of a younger generation are more open minded and have less prejudice against race, that even without these mandates skilled people regardless of race or gender will get the job. That means sometimes diversity will happen, other times there won't be much and we have to accept that. And things won't always be fair, as some people will always be more tribal. It'll require a lot of faith in humanity, in each other, something we as a society don't have right now. I don't think we'll ever find a balance to be honest.
torontoperson
Neo Member
I'd totally be down for this.
However - I do think there is an argument to be made to assist certain groups which are particularly marginalized - specifically I'd say indigenous peoples. Given their socioeconomic realities I think it would be beneficial to society at large if this group is given special status.
There is also another argument to be made here - statistically caucasians are on average wealthier than minorities (wealth mind you, not income). Thus right from the get go there are inherent advantages that accrue to the community as a whole, i.e. caucasians are at a statistical advantage when it comes to things like schooling, housing, opportunities that are available to a person (such as hiring tutors or sports coaches, etc) - thus if we simply ignore the factors that disporportionately affect minority groups, then this status quo of wealth imbalance will continue. Now of course one doesn't want to simply redistribute wealth - but if the lack of money is holding a community down (on average) in that it has resulted in the lack of equitable opportunities, then I am in favor of reallocation that helps that community - a viscious cycle if you will.
I've also toyed with the idea that all of this should be down on socioeconomic lines - i.e. have equity policies that treat everyone below a certain income threshold exactly the same - but this breaks down in the sense that: say you have a black person versus a white person, both of whom are under the poverty line at the exact same income level. Given things such as names on resumes as I mentioned above (and there are many many other examples of systemic bias) the black person has on average had less opportunities than the white person....
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
You'll never get proportionate representation based on natural hiring because not all jobs or sectors are proportionately sought after per race.
If tons of Asians overrepresent medical jobs, it's probably due to tons of Asians going into science programs. If any other culture thinks that's unfair, what they can do (along with fellow people of the same culture) is get more people to focus on those job sectors so the candidacy pool increases for that demographic.
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