Support NeoGAF

[torontoperson]

You'll never get proportionate representation based on natural hiring because not all jobs or sectors are proportionately sought after per race.

If tons of Asians overrepresent medical jobs, it's probably due to tons of Asians going into science programs. If any other culture thinks that's unfair, what they can do (along with fellow people of the same culture) is get more people to focus on those job sectors so the candidacy pool increases for that demographic.

I'm not the person you responded to but my two cents...

Certainly we will never reach perfect proportionate representation, and perhaps this isn't even something we should strive to achieve. And I do think culture plays a role in the professions different communities gravitate towards. However I think it would be wilfully naive to conclude that under/over representation of different groups in different sectors is solely attributable to culture... Using your example - a medical degree is expensive to obtain both from a cost and a time perspective - such luxuries are less available to populations that are on average less well off. Maybe there is some space to help these communities have equal opportunity when it comes to jobs that would be out of their reach otherwise. (Agreed there isn't a direct connection here, i.e. there's a lot of confounding factors. However when it comes to white collar jobs, we KNOW that minorities are discriminated against on the basis of their names....)

 

[thief183]

Well in my company we only hire straight white male.

 

[MaestroMike]

Nba/nfl

 

[Rien]

I would love to say the Netherlands but unfortunatly that aint true anymore

 

[Liberty4all]

I'd totally be down for this.

However - I do think there is an argument to be made to assist certain groups which are particularly marginalized - specifically I'd say indigenous peoples. Given their socioeconomic realities I think it would be beneficial to society at large if this group is given special status.

There is also another argument to be made here - statistically caucasians are on average wealthier than minorities (wealth mind you, not income). Thus right from the get go there are inherent advantages that accrue to the community as a whole, i.e. caucasians are at a statistical advantage when it comes to things like schooling, housing, opportunities that are available to a person (such as hiring tutors or sports coaches, etc) - thus if we simply ignore the factors that disporportionately affect minority groups, then this status quo of wealth imbalance will continue. Now of course one doesn't want to simply redistribute wealth - but if the lack of money is holding a community down (on average) in that it has resulted in the lack of equitable opportunities, then I am in favor of reallocation that helps that community - a viscious cycle if you will.

I've also toyed with the idea that all of this should be down on socioeconomic lines - i.e. have equity policies that treat everyone below a certain income threshold exactly the same - but this breaks down in the sense that: say you have a black person versus a white person, both of whom are under the poverty line at the exact same income level. Given things such as names on resumes as I mentioned above (and there are many many other examples of systemic bias) the black person has on average had less opportunities than the white person....

Not meaning to sound offensive to you personally but I perceive these ideas as communist. The idea of focusing on grouped community by race rather than the merits of the individual.

i get what you are saying, but imho these are ideas that focus on racial “groups” rather than the merits of an individual. I will never agree that “equity” is a cause to strive for ... equality of opportunity yes, but never equality of outcomes.

Equity is not equality. Equity can actually mean a lack of equality ... as equity is often based on the controversial idea of righting historic wrongs - also something that is based on opinion rather than facts,

 

[torontoperson]

Not meaning to sound offensive to you personally but I perceive these ideas as communist. The idea of focusing on grouped community by race rather than the merits of the individual.

i get what you are saying, but imho these are ideas that focus on racial “groups” rather than the merits of an individual. I will never agree that “equity” is a cause to strive for ... equality of opportunity yes, but never equality of outcomes.

Equity is not equality. Equity can actually mean a lack of equality ... as equity is often based on the controversial idea of righting historic wrongs - also something that is based on opinion rather than facts,

I'm curious - do you consider our country to be communist? (Sorry will sleep on your post and respond to the rest of it tomrrow..)

 

[Liberty4all]

I'm curious - do you consider our country to be communist? (Sorry will sleep on your post and respond to the rest of it tomrrow..)

I am extremely concerned the direction we are going.

John Ivison: Trudeau's 'literally frightening' spending plan has some Liberals, bureaucrats very worried

With three weeks until the government unveils its new agenda, the cracks are already beginning to show

nationalpost.com

it is clear that Trudeau is throwing caution to the wind and plans to borrow billions to fund a progressive wet dream — Green deal, possible UBI, who knows what else. This love affair with Modern Monetary Theory runs the risk of bankrupting the country if they are wrong ... as in Canada becoming Venezuela.

So yeah I’m concerned, I’ve got a kid that’s going to have to live through the long term repercussions of Trudeau.. We aren’t communist YET, but the direction we are going is straight up socialism and could eventually lead to Canada breaking up. Quebec and Alberta won’t put up with the kind of pushing around required to enact Trudeau’s programs. and Alberta won’t pay for Ottawa’s wet dreams — especially now that Alberta is in serious financial trouble too. I lived in Alberta — they HATE Ontario.. Even the liberal ones - they hate us.

 

[torontoperson]

Not meaning to sound offensive to you personally but I perceive these ideas as communist. The idea of focusing on grouped community by race rather than the merits of the individual.

i get what you are saying, but imho these are ideas that focus on racial “groups” rather than the merits of an individual. I will never agree that “equity” is a cause to strive for ... equality of opportunity yes, but never equality of outcomes.

Equity is not equality. Equity can actually mean a lack of equality ... as equity is often based on the controversial idea of righting historic wrongs - also something that is based on opinion rather than facts,

So then you also perceive universal healthcare and EI as communist yes? I'm sure you've taken advantage of the medical system... And of EI perhaps at some point - the richer you are the greater is your contribution into these programs - this is a redistribution of wealth from a more advantaged community to a more disadvantaged community. Are you in favor of getting rid of EI and of universal healthcare?

More broadly speaking - the argument you seem to be making is that the government should have no role in trying to improve the lot of those who are relatively downtrodden / hold less 'power' in society - well its role should not affect 'groups' as a whole. Should the ban on children being allowed to do hard labour continue or do you think there should be no laws around this and that it's up to merits of the individual child?

Equity is based on the idea that not everyone has the same opportunities, and broadly speaking minorities do not have equality of opportunity, a consequence of wealth and systemic bias (resumes and names, housing policies, schooling opportunities, police violence), apparent in outcomes. Think of it like this - if two equally qualified candidates apply to a bank for a loan and on average it is noticed that the bank is more likely to give one group loans than the other then perhaps we should look at what's the cause of this because it's clear one group is benefiting and one is not. Exactly the same thing but in the job market, and that's what equity policies are trying to address.

Re this "I will never agree that “equity” is a cause to strive for" - further up this thread you just said that you would be in favor of system that results in proportional representation..... literally equality of outcomes.

And I'm sorry "righting historic wrongs - also something that is based on opinion rather than facts," makes little sense - very much based on facts - now your opinion of what should or should not be done about it is.... an opinion. But the facts remain. For example it's hardly up for debate that European colonizers arriving in North America was not good for indigenous folks - is that just like my opinion or is it a fact?

 

[M1chl]

Central/Eastern Europe, never came across this diversity, drug test, etc bullshit...

 

[highrider]

Idk, I'm in a very liberal state in the US and as a straight white guy I've never had trouble getting a job because of quotas or politics or whatever.

Getting a good job requires a lot of boxes to be checked. Education, experience, social/interview skills, appearance, connections, etc. It might be a plus if you help meet some kind of diversity requirement, but personally I've never seen someone get a job just because of that.

You should visit DC, particularly the federal/local government. You’ll have trouble getting any job like that here as a white male. Fortunately most jobs with diversity quotas aren’t important jobs or at least an incompetent person can do relatively minimal harm.

 

[torontoperson]

I am extremely concerned the direction we are going.

John Ivison: Trudeau's 'literally frightening' spending plan has some Liberals, bureaucrats very worried

With three weeks until the government unveils its new agenda, the cracks are already beginning to show

nationalpost.com

it is clear that Trudeau is throwing caution to the wind and plans to borrow billions to fund a progressive wet dream — Green deal, possible UBI, who knows what else. This love affair with Modern Monetary Theory runs the risk of bankrupting the country if they are wrong ... as in Canada becoming Venezuela.

So yeah I’m concerned, I’ve got a kid that’s going to have to live through the long term repercussions of Trudeau.. We aren’t communist YET, but the direction we are going is straight up socialism and could eventually lead to Canada breaking up. Quebec and Alberta won’t put up with the kind of pushing around required to enact Trudeau’s programs. and Alberta won’t pay for Ottawa’s wet dreams — especially now that Alberta is in serious financial trouble too. I lived in Alberta — they HATE Ontario.. Even the liberal ones - they hate us.

Canada has been trying to break-up for much longer than Justin Trudeau has been around.

Secondly Quebec gets what, $13 billion or something annually? Province wouldn't survive by itself. Re Alberta, sure I buy what you say..

Rr Trudeau and his spending- look at the second graph halfway down this article and tell me how good / bad / different he has been re spending - https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/the...eficit-to-hit-343-billion-this-year-1.5015467 (of course 2020-21 is going to be whole different ball game given Covid, but even there we are very much in line with other countries). According to your thought process ("risk of bankrupting the country", "Cnada becoming Venezuela" and all that - linking national debt to communism) I guess France, Germany, Japan, Italy, UK are all on the path to communism - and the USA is the most communist state of them all! I mean lets have some perspective here...

 

[notseqi]

Look at this this, get those people giving their work. This is what you are looking at if you are capable in what you do. I can set you up with business advice, proper communication, work work.

 

[#Phonepunk#]

art and music. sure, if you avoid social justice you might be lacking in contemporary acclaim from the SJW jackals that make up the press. but think about the great bands, the Beatles, Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd. does anyone remember what the critics were saying at the time? no, people remember the music, because that is all that matters, the cultural conversation (as important as the critical class tries to make it) is ultimately more and more irrelevant as time passes. the cultural critical canon is objectively irrelevant, time makes it so. an incredible work of art, or piece of music, may go unappreciated during the lifetime of its creator, only to be re-discovered by some future civilization. look at Captain Beefheart, how many people took him seriously in the 60's, vs now? critical consensus shifts.

imo this applies to everything. the SJW crazy is only right now, it won't last forever, and these standards are not eternal. if anything we should be more aware than ever than SJW standards are ever-shifting, to the point where objectively they have no standards. Do you recall when people like Alyssa Milano were claiming that "#metoo is a right wing trap"? Only a year or so had passed since Kavanaugh, the culture had swung entirely around, the moral standards were reversed entirely, because it suited the media-left culture war of the moment. Give it 5 more years, that narrative might shift 5 more times. In 50 years will any of that matter at all?

But eternal truths will always remain eternal. Art that reflects eternal truth - not art that is trendy or reactionary - will always be relevant. Even if the official critical class is currently made up of illiterate, culture-less morons.

 

[Blade2.0]

Them some strong words coming from someone that backs star citizen.

 

[Liberty4all]

So then you also perceive universal healthcare and EI as communist yes? I'm sure you've taken advantage of the medical system... And of EI perhaps at some point - the richer you are the greater is your contribution into these programs - this is a redistribution of wealth from a more advantaged community to a more disadvantaged community. Are you in favor of getting rid of EI and of universal healthcare?

EI and healthcare? Look not to be Harsh but that’s a real swing in the discussion - regardless I’ll play. For Americans reading this Employment Insurance in Canada is the equivalent to US Unemployment Insurance.

I see EI as similar to whole life insurance. Would you collect on a Whole life insurance policy where the policy holder paid the premiums? Yes? The premiums have been paid into just as EI premiums are paid into. So no I do not think EI is “communism” anymore than I think life insurance is communism . I don’t think EI premiums should be forced (they are) but aside from that, it’s no different from collecting on a whole life policy.

Universal health care has a lot of problems in terms of wait times to see specialists. There is a reason that so many Torontonians know the commercial jingle for “Buffalo MRI”. and Nothing is ever truly “free“ it’s just paid for differently, in our case via taxes and the efficiencies associated with a mass Health system like we have in Canada.

More broadly speaking - the argument you seem to be making is that the government should have no role in trying to improve the lot of those who are relatively downtrodden / hold less 'power' in society - well its role should not affect 'groups' as a whole. Should the ban on children being allowed to do hard labour continue or do you think there should be no laws around this and that it's up to merits of the individual child?

Yes the government should have a small role in trying to improve the lot of those who are relatively downtrodden / hold less 'power' in society. Redistribution of wealth is the antithesis to everything that made Canada and the US great.

Equity is based on the idea that not everyone has the same opportunities, and broadly speaking minorities do not have equality of opportunity, a consequence of wealth and systemic bias (resumes and names, housing policies, schooling opportunities, police violence), apparent in outcomes. Think of it like this - if two equally qualified candidates apply to a bank for a loan and on average it is noticed that the bank is more likely to give one group loans than the other then perhaps we should look at what's the cause of this because it's clear one group is benefiting and one is not. Exactly the same thing but in the job market, and that's what equity policies are trying to address.

The irony of “equity” policies is that it brings to life the very systemic racism the left cries about.

Re this "I will never agree that “equity” is a cause to strive for" - further up this thread you just said that you would be in favor of system that results in proportional representation..... literally equality of outcomes.

i said proportional representation should happen naturally based on demographics assuming a society that stresses the importance of equality of opportunity for all. If this is not the case then looking at enforcing colour blind policies that focus on equality - not Racist equality of outcomes that looks at groups of people based on race/sex rather than the individual .

 

[torontoperson]

EI and healthcare? Look not to be Harsh but that’s a real swing in the discussion - regardless I’ll play. For Americans reading this Employment Insurance in Canada is the equivalent to US Unemployment Insurance.

I see EI as similar to whole life insurance. Would you collect on a Whole life insurance policy where the policy holder paid the premiums? Yes? The premiums have been paid into just as EI premiums are paid into. So no I do not think EI is “communism” anymore than I think life insurance is communism . I don’t think EI premiums should be forced (they are) but aside from that, it’s no different from collecting on a whole life policy.

Universal health care has a lot of problems in terms of wait times to see specialists. There is a reason that so many Torontonians know the commercial jingle for “Buffalo MRI”. and Nothing is ever truly “free“ it’s just paid for differently, in our case via taxes and the efficiencies associated with a mass Health system like we have in Canada.



Yes the government should have a small role in trying to improve the lot of those who are relatively downtrodden / hold less 'power' in society. Redistribution of wealth is the antithesis to everything that made Canada and the US great.



The irony of “equity” policies is that it brings to life the very systemic racism the left cries about.



i said proportional representation should happen naturally based on demographics assuming a society that stresses the importance of equality of opportunity for all. If this is not the case then looking at enforcing colour blind policies that focus on equality - not Racist equality of outcomes that looks at groups of people based on race/sex rather than the individual .

This started with you saying the public sector in canada discriminates against caucasians (specifically white men) - I showed you statistics that show there is still a pretty significant overrepresentation of caucasians (more women then men agreed) in the public sector and these policies were instituted to offset this overrepresentation. From there you claimed this to be a communist principle, i.e. the benefit of any group at the cost of any one individual. Hence I asked about if you thought EI and healthcare to be communist (particularly interested in EI), given that the rich contribute a disproportionately higher amount and hence there is a cost to individuals for the betterment of another group, with the same being true for healthcare - was curious to see how consistent you could be with your arbitrary definitions / categorizations. It takes two to tango so let's not accuse anyone of shifting focus. I mean to actually be consistent you should support a flat tax as well...

"Nothing is ever truly “free“ it’s just paid for differently, in our case via taxes and the efficiencies associated with a mass Health system like we have in Canada." This is not about something being free or not - no one said anything about it being free (costs run at about 50% of costs per person as compared to the USA with better outcomes on average by the way). The point was that there are disproportionate inputs whereby richer individuals pay a higher amount to benefit a poorer group of people - you must not be in favor of this given your stance: "Not meaning to sound offensive to you personally but I perceive these ideas as communist. The idea of focusing on grouped community by race rather than the merits of the individual." That being said, yes I do agree wait times are long and I hope there is a way to correct this.

"The irony of “equity” policies is that it brings to life the very systemic racism the left cries about." Rather these policies seek to correct the systemic prejudice that exists in institutional hiring practices and society in general.