Coolwhhip
Neophyte
So being offensive is illegal in the UK? #doubt
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Is there free speech on the internet?
- Thread starter Coolwhhip
- Start date
So being offensive is illegal in the UK? #doubt
Liljagare
Member
Did we define what free speech is, to begin with in the thread? And, also, "on the internet" is hard to say since it pertains to so many nations.
Sometimes, when we state that we need to defend free speech, it is actually about defending the laws regarding what free speech is. Free speech is heavily regulated in most nations.
True and utter free speach, speech, wth... which one is it?
Don't want to google. Anyway, has never existed. You are nowhere on the planet really free to speak freely about everything. Every country has laws against somethings.
Racistic remarks - are banned in most nations.
Support of Nazi's - is banned in most nations.
Paintings of certain religous people - is banned in alot of nations.
Pippi Longstocking - is banned in a suprising amount of nations (her dad).
Etc.. Are those good things to be banned? More than likely, if it is banned, there is a reason for it. Does those bans limit freedom of speach? Yes, most definetively yes. But, do we want all of those things to be allowed? Helll no. So, you need to think about what it is in your country to begin with, what is freedom of speech? (Think I got that one right?).
Sometimes, when we state that we need to defend free speech, it is actually about defending the laws regarding what free speech is. Free speech is heavily regulated in most nations.
True and utter free speach, speech, wth... which one is it?
Don't want to google. Anyway, has never existed. You are nowhere on the planet really free to speak freely about everything. Every country has laws against somethings.Racistic remarks - are banned in most nations.
Support of Nazi's - is banned in most nations.
Paintings of certain religous people - is banned in alot of nations.
Pippi Longstocking - is banned in a suprising amount of nations (her dad).
Etc.. Are those good things to be banned? More than likely, if it is banned, there is a reason for it. Does those bans limit freedom of speach? Yes, most definetively yes. But, do we want all of those things to be allowed? Helll no. So, you need to think about what it is in your country to begin with, what is freedom of speech? (Think I got that one right?
).
Last edited:
John Bilbo
Member
Well that's the point.
It doesn't matter what the purpose behind your words were. If something is deemed offensive or hateful or bigoted or phobic by the law you will be prosecuted. You will be punished.
Last edited:
Coolwhhip
Neophyte
Did we define what free speech is, to begin with in the thread?
Sometimes, when we state that we need to defend free speech, it is actually about defending the laws regarding what free speech is. Free speech is heavily regulated in most nations.
True and utter free speach, speech, wth... which one is it?
Yeah I just meant the general meaning of it, the Oxford definition:
free speech
noun: free speech
the right to express any opinions without censorship or restraint.
Liljagare
Member
Then that, doesn't exist anywhere on the planet, so why would it exist on the internet?
There are three kinds of people; dicks, pussies and assholes. Pussies think everyone can get along and dicks just want to fuck all the time without thinking it through. But then you got your assholes. And all the assholes want is to shit all over everything. So pussies may get mad at dicks once in a while because, pussies get fucked by dicks. But dicks also fuck assholes! And if they didn't fuck the assholes, you know what you'd get? You'd get your dick and your pussy all covered in shit.
John Bilbo
Member
Well I'm pretty sure that's hate speech /s
Maiden Voyage
Gold™ Member
I would but my government won’t let me.
IDKFA
I am Become Bilbo Baggins
No. Being offensive isn't a hate crime. However, online abuse can be considered a hate crime and a police matter.
Report hate crime
Crimes committed against someone because of their race, religion, sexuality, disability or gender are hate crimes - how to report them to the police
Yes. That's correct and that's how the law works currently in the UK.
Coolwhhip
Neophyte
Did we define what free speech is, to begin with in the thread? And, also, "on the internet" is hard to say since it pertains to so many nations.
Sometimes, when we state that we need to defend free speech, it is actually about defending the laws regarding what free speech is. Free speech is heavily regulated in most nations.
True and utter free speach, speech, wth... which one is it?
Racistic remarks - are banned in most nations.
Support of Nazi's - is banned in most nations.
Paintings of certain religous people - is banned in alot of nations.
Pippi Longstocking - is banned in a suprising amount of nations (her dad).
Etc.. Are those good things to be banned? More than likely, if it is banned, there is a reason for it. Does those bans limit freedom of speach? Yes, most definetively yes. But, do we want all of those things to be allowed? Helll no. So, you need to think about what it is in your country to begin with, what is freedom of speech? (Think I got that one right?
In my opinion the fewer banned things the better. In your example, banning of paintings because of religion, that's something developed countries have moved past by now. Because we want to let people make up their own minds and not let the church control it. If we're not careful we will go back in time because of the new woke 'religion'.
Last edited:
LegendOfKage
Member
Why anyone would want their country to have legal authority to decide the intent of their own thoughts and opinions astounds me.
Should Dave Chappelle be jailed, in your opinion? In the past, he has made fun of a lot of groups that are considered a protected class. Even in his newest special, he goes back and forth between making fun of and praising protected groups. To me at least, some of the praise seemed really genuine, but other moments seemed like just a way to setup a punchline. So if someone takes offensive, should Dave Chappelle be jailed?
Notice, I'm not saying CAN Dave Chappelle be jailed for his act. I'm asking if you feel he should. Why or why not? When does that apply to others, and when does it not?
I believe the ultimate argument most people who support free speech are making is that unlike theft, or murder, or assault, speech and offense are far too nuanced to punish people for stepping over a line that by its very nature can only be drawn arbitrarily and subjectively with a considerable amount of bias. Does that seem fair to say?
Liljagare
Member
TBF, that is not what the thread is about.
Nobody_Important
“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
Still trying to figure that one out myself to be honest.
Liljagare
Member
I personally do not think that we can reach any level of personal freedom on the internet, unless we also manage to achieve a global citizenship.
ZywyPL
Banned
Of course there is. Everyone can buy a domain, set up a server and a website where they can do literally every single thing they can think off. Many people just confuse posting content on someone else's platforms (FB, IG, YT, Twitter, Twitch etc.) and are shocked they have to obey their rules.
Boss Mog
Member
There isn't since you're at the mercy of other people/entities. Site owners and even hosting providers can choose to silence you if you say something they don't agree with. It's a pretty politically charged question, especially these days so it's hard to go into detail without breaking GAF's ToS, but all you need to do is look at Babylon Bee a satire site that is pretty tame all things considered but that dares to go against the current political and cultural climate, and who, because of this, is being targeted by tech giants wanting to silence it.
ShadowNate
Member
Yes, there is.
The fact that social platforms are (all) moderated and often enforce rules based on politics, ideologies, trends, misguided sense of doing the right thing etc is something inevitable.
But you still have many options to reach people all over the globe even with the most outrageous opinion, or even (and sadly) just pointless spam, troll, intentionally misinform.
I don't really agree with the environment festering at places like 'era, but I am thankful there's a block option on forums, twitter and elsewhere. Sometimes I wish when blocking a person a hand would come out from their screen and slap them across the face.
The fact that social platforms are (all) moderated and often enforce rules based on politics, ideologies, trends, misguided sense of doing the right thing etc is something inevitable.
But you still have many options to reach people all over the globe even with the most outrageous opinion, or even (and sadly) just pointless spam, troll, intentionally misinform.
I don't really agree with the environment festering at places like 'era, but I am thankful there's a block option on forums, twitter and elsewhere. Sometimes I wish when blocking a person a hand would come out from their screen and slap them across the face.
M1chl
Currently Gif and Meme Champion
Boss Mog
Member
This is wrong. Hosting platforms such as Amazon will take your site down, as can domain registrars, if they don't like what you say, it's happened a number of times recently.
Cutty Flam
Banned
10 years in prison for a racist remark? You’re out of your fucking mind
IDKFA
I am Become Bilbo Baggins
If the punishments were harder, nobody would dare be racist or make racist remarks online.
Cutty Flam
Banned
You’re senseless. Think about what you’re saying. You want to throw a man in PRISON for TEN YEARS over mere words…
That’s the funniest thing I’ve ever read.
IDKFA
I am Become Bilbo Baggins
I'll think about it. Maybe 10 years is a little too much, but 50 days is insulting. At least a year and re-education training.
Anyway, it goes to show that freedom of speech doesn't exist anywhere, online or in the real word.
ResurrectedContrarian
Suffers with mild autism
Are you an actual psychopath or are these posts just a joke?
Nobody_Important
“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
I don't consider it that either. There is a clear difference to me between what you described and an actual restriction on free speech.In my country we have very strict regulations against neo-Nazism and its reactivation, so I was like this when I watched "Last Crusade" the first time.
But I still wouldn't consider it a lack of free speeche.
Ionian
Member
Don't think she's arguing against it dude.
She's talking about Indiana Jones and isn't the OP.
Nobody_Important
“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
I get that. I am saying that I agree with them. I don't consider protections against things like the rise of neonazism and other white supremacy ideals to be a violation of free speech.
I consider that basic protection of the people.
Bernd Lauert
Banned
True, but it's going in the other direction now. The people in power realized that having the internet operate as the Wild West is dangerous to them, so they're turning the internet into a centralized entity where a handful of actors are the gatekeepers and the drivers of consensus and narratives. See the fake Facebook whistleblower as the most recent example.The internet’s identity has always been the Wild West
IDKFA
I am Become Bilbo Baggins
Neither.
Just want to see hate speech get the punishment it deserves.
Look at the guy this week who got 50 days in prison and 200 hours community service for making a racist comment online about black England players. Before getting arrested, he was challenged online about his comments. What was his response? Some vague apology, but then said he was standing up for the "weak ones" against "political correctness" and "England till I die" (Cringe!). That's a real psycho. Somebody who thinks they're a crusader against political correctness, so can say whatever they want without any consequences.
If he wasn't punished, then he'd think his comments were acceptable. We need to educate people that any hateful comments are unacceptable in modern society and will be punishable by law.
LegendOfKage
Member
Why is it that people who want to silence speech never want to get into the weeds about how it should be done, and where the lines should be drawn? Every time I make an argument like this it gets ignored. And while I do feel I'm right, I'm not at all above listening to others criticize my views, and maybe point out something that I never considered before.
IDKFA
Because I understand the "why" you want to silence hate. Believe me, I agree with you there, and I'm all about the why myself. Hate of any kind is not a good thing. Add prejudice on top of that, and you've really got a disservice to humanity. It's the how and the who that get me every time. "I don't consider protections against things like the rise of [a wildly unpopular group or idea that offends the sensibilities of the vast majority of people] to be a violation of free speech. I consider that basic protection of the people."
Something to perhaps keep in mind is the fact that if this mindset was allowed to overrule the constitution in the past, all sorts of civil rights would have been prevented at various times in US history. Along with whatever is coming next that we can't even see yet.
Last edited:
John Bilbo
Member
Omega Supreme Holopsicon
Banned
They exist because we gave them special legal protections. Without them theyd cease to exist in a nanosecond.
It is clear the laws applying to big platforms need to be reformed.
You may not understand it but if most of big tech and most of msm is mere propaganda of a few wealthy individuals they can move tens of millions of individuals into whatever direction they wish.
Weve already seen some of these platforms fomenting division hatred and violence.
Or theyd make sure no one was around to tell about it.
Many times harsher penalties have only resulted in worse crimes being committed.
Not to mention these ideas can be used to silence opposition to unpopular harmful measures from the government. But that would be getting into politics.
Also as others have said control of speech is open to rampant abuse. It is also open to easily incriminating opposition to the government with faked speech.
JumpMan1981
Banned
I have to say I am amused by the idea that we could one day life in a society where you can walk into a store and steal less than 1k worth of stuff and you're fine to just leave but if you express a hateful opinion that's 10 years in prison!
You're from the UK yeah? So glass someone in the face is a 12 month suspended sentence. Woman glassed neighbour's partner after practical joke backfires at lockdown rule breaking birthday party in Tredegar - Wales Online
Hateful opinions? Ten years!
IDKFA
I am Become Bilbo Baggins
Sorry. You're a little late on this one. I admitted that ten years was probably too harsh. However, I still think a harsh sentence will end misogyny and bigotry against minorities. I think that if you're misogynistic, or use racist, homophobic language etc online and get found guilty of a hate crime, then it should be at least a year in prison and re-education training.
It's 2021. The main bulk of the internet is controlled by large social media organisations or companies like Alphabet or Amazon, yet still people are still committing hate crimes online and being transphobic, homophobic, racist, misogynistic. If that means more governments and big tech companies controling and regulating online speech, then so be it.
To be clear, I'm only talking about online speech here. I would go more in depth, but it would be going into political territory.
Last edited:
highrider
Banned
It is pretty much saying whatever the fuck you want barring inciting violence or threats, which is pretty clearly stated in what free speech is. You are completely free to say whatever the fuck you want beside that. I’ve been to East Germany when it existed, travelled extensively in the third world… Doesn’t change my perspective on free speech in America, nor do I think the new edicts of don’t be mean or offend anyone is even the same thing. People are just much softer and weak mentally in general in the western world. The good life has made the bad words too harsh to deal with.
Last edited:
strange headache
Banned
Yeah because the death sentence worked so well on reducing homicides and the war on drugs really got rid of drug related crimes, right?
If you think you can get rid of racism through punitive measures, you're f*cking deluded. If anything you're just fanning the flames through a deregulated justice system where punishment is not proportionate to the seriousness of the crime.
Mutual understanding and solidarity are deontological ideals that can only be achieved through education, shared experiences and bilateral dialogue. It requires a change of mind and heart that can certainly not ne forced through oppressive measures. You don't fight hate with more hate, you don't fight intolerance with being even more intolerant and you certainly won't get rid of unwanted opinions by restricting speech. If we want to get rid of racism, we need to f*cking finally transcend race, not indulge ourselves in even more race-oriented thinking.
If anything, we need free speech not because of the conspiracy nutters, but because of cretins like you. The ends don't justify the means and I don't f*cking care how well intended they are. What matters to me is how we get there.
Last edited:
I think your question is a bit weird: Are you asking if the internet has rules, -or is able to grant rights, that transcends the laws of the country you currently reside in?
Last edited:
Ionian
Member
They don't like being banned on platforms with rules.
IDKFA
I am Become Bilbo Baggins
There is a lot to unpack there. I've been thinking about your reply and the replies from others, and you're all probably right.
I think I've been spending too much time with my work colleagues. I don't want to get too political, but they're all ultra far-left and I think their views and opinions are rubbing off on me.
Similar threads
- Locked