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[Lime]

After Trump and his bigoted campaign won the election, many articles have called for "listening to the White Working Class" or that Leftist politicians must start catering to white voters if they are to succeed (and thereby also disregarding the apathetic voters who didn't vote). Of course, as many posters here on GAF have detailed (and here, and here, and here, and here), it's deplorable to throw minorities under the bus in order to appease irrational racist feelings and that there should be no compromise on the basic human rights of people.

To me, this argument is oddly reminiscent of what I've seen of some of the criticisms of the European Left when it comes to addressing the concerns in the still increasing overwhelming anti-Muslim/-immigration sentiments in the population. Throughout the last decade or so, I see that many people call for leftist parties to start addressing the anti-immigration (read: anti-Middle Eastern/-African) concerns in the population. That Leftist parties have to take seriously that white Europeans are afraid of immigrants - e.g. a typical example are these ones (who got quoted a lot in a previous thread about Europe and the popularity of far-right ideology):

Listen to the working class and try to address their concerns instead of writing them off and letting the Neo-Nazis steal them away.

This is all the left's fault.

The left gave a huge opening to the far right by refusing to admit: unfettered immigration might actually cause problems, terrorists will enter Europe while posing as refugees, Europe's wealth isn't unlimited, integration will be difficult, etc. etc.

First thing the left should do is: stop digging and admit there is a problem.

I'll never understand why immigration is the hill the European left decided to die on.

And we see this argument being propped up again and again whenever we talk about the failure of the Left in Europe (sans Spain and other countries). That the Left can only win if they appeal to the European version of the "white voters" who harbor resentment towards immigrants and refugees (from the Middle East, Eastern Europe, & Africa). And we will see this argument come up again and again with France, Germany, and the Netherlands having their elections next year. That the left parties have to adopt the same nationalist and isolationist policies that the extremely popular far-right parties are championing.

Keep in mind that I'm not saying that politicians should ignore the challenges of multi-culturalism, far from it (Funky Papa had a really good post about it that I can't find right now). I'm just saying that I find it concerning that the Left should compromise on human rights and the basic dignity of viewing all people as equal worth of humanity, because white Europeans have these emotional reactions to multiculturalism that is especially fueled by the right-winged media's reporting on them.

As the US posters on GAF who eloquently and explicitly have stated that there should be no compromise on fundamental humanity and that throwing marginalized groups under the bus is abhorrent, I too think that moderates, liberals, and leftists need to stop trying to reproduce the argument that the leftist parties need to adopt the same anti-"immigration" policies of the far-right by catering to the emotions of scared white European voters. That doesn't mean challenges of multiculturalism should be ignored, but that easy and simple unrealistic solutions aren't the way to go about it.

(Sorry about the thread title, I wanted to convey the juxtaposition between the US "we must listen to white voters" that I've been seeing after the election to the often-touted European "the Left is at fault for not catering to (white) European voters".)

 

[Trokil]

Well, the left fell into the trap of free trade.

They liked the idea of an open world and that everybody can work where they like to. Unfortunately in reality this is used to either lower wages like in Germany, where the SPD (used to be the social democratic party) with the agenda 2010 has created millions of poor workers, which like in the US will have huge problems after retirement or even with higher educated to get people from other countries to make the work cheaper.

So one way to solve this, would be more protective, which would also be against their own ideology. Also they don’t feel the pressure that much yet. Yes, they lose a lot of worker votes, but because the left parties have become the intellectual parties, they don’t see that in their personal world view. This is why a party like the SPD can still call a 20% result a victory.

The other problem is the lack of empathy for their former works. Too often the response was, well sucks to be you, perhaps you should learn something different when your job has gone overseas. This made them disconnected to the problems of the regular people and most of their time they spend now with virtual battles, instead of real politics. So the workers without any real political influence are now looking for a new party, which will listen to them. So an easy prey for demagogues and populists. Not that they would actually care, but they can channel the anger, the old parts have produced.

That they use this to deflect this hate towards immigrants or other people is nothing new and it works pretty well.

 

[Carcetti]

We're ahead of the curve here in Finland.

The Finns party (used to be called True Finns but I liked the translation Basic Finns more) ran with an anti-immigrant + working class agenda, got on the government with 2 other parties. So far they've managed to not have any discernible effect on immigration (except some amazingly Trumpish outbursts on FB) while running amazingly harsh anti-working class policies only, gutting families, pensioners, education, low income people, all the while funneling cash to Big Money corps like failed mining projects with their government party pals. They're gonna get burned come next election, who knows how hard.

On the other hand, during the most frenzied immigration talks they've managed to turn all discussion to refugee crisis. As someone who's always voted left / working class the parties I'm interested in seem to be talking nothing else than the immigration in public now. I feel like pointing out 'hey, I still exist here, you got any policies for helping my family at all?' Immigration just completely dominates the discussion.

 

[Messofanego]

Keep in mind also that when white people complain about immigrants especially on the argument that they're stealing their jobs, it is white people statistically who are more likely to be welfare queens like in the UK while immigrants are more likely to be workers. We have to face the reality that a lot of white people are no longer the "working" class.

 

[Chuckie]

The left parties (labor, greens) in Holland who traditionally focused on blue collar workers shifted its attention to immigrant voters a couple of decades ago. These people either took their votes more to the left (socialist party) or to the far right (Freedom Party)

 

[hodgy100]

we have to get over this "you must work" mindset and realize that not everyone can have a job and that a lot of jobs dont pay a livable wage. I feel like this can be combatted with a mixture of UBI and setting the minimum wage to be a living wage. we have to stomp out poverty as poverty is creating hate towards others even when it is not deserved.

 

[KHlover]

This is tricky. Like it or not, the left (and the center) need to win those voters back and thus talk with them and take their concerns seriously, but since they alienated those voters for the better part of the century that might just be seen as pandering and initially push more voters to the right. I'm convinced we have to accept that this election season is 100% fucked and keep trying to get those disappointed voters back during a (hopefully) less than steller right-wing reign and try again in the next elections.

 

[TwiztidElf]

Internet/political binary != the exponential layers of real life.

 

[dapperbandit]

If you want to win you have to play the hand you're dealt. Western countries are majority white countries. You don't win if you neglect the largest demographic.

The phenomenon as I see it is the modern left shifted it's focus from class to race in the last couple of decades and as a result you get people who previously voted socialist vote for the Front Nationale in France.

The identity crisis can be seen in the UK as well as many hard Labour constituencies voted for Brexit against the party position on the issue.

The left fixes this or gets left behind by a surging interest in nationalism which has far more legs and energy. People are already comparing the changing climate to 1968 as an inversal.

Purity spiral all you want about not compromising but it's not a good strategy for success.

 

[ponpo]

Keep in mind also that when white people complain about immigrants especially on the argument that they're stealing their jobs, it is white people statistically who are more likely to be welfare queens like in the UK while immigrants are more likely to be workers. We have to face the reality that a lot of white people are no longer the "working" class.

Per capita?

Anyway I know what you mean but that phrasing is weird. If the workers are more like to be immigrants and the white people are more likely to be out of work, that proves them right! The immigrants DID steal their jobs!

 

[MistakenMobius]

European Left is completely stretched in incompatible vue:

They use to be staunchly anti-religious but are now standing more on the side of Islam.

They use to be for workers protection yet immigration is putting power inside capitalist hands with cheap labor and putting pressure on European social safety net.

People that were natural voting left like women and LGBT are not feeling welcome anymore.

 

[Guerrillas in the Mist]

Keep in mind also that when white people complain about immigrants especially on the argument that they're stealing their jobs, it is white people statistically who are more likely to be welfare queens like in the UK while immigrants are more likely to be workers. We have to face the reality that a lot of white people are no longer the "working" class.

It's the same way that the fact that EU workers statistically put more into the system than they take out was ignored. Didn't fit into the narrative of European scroungers overloading our schools and hospitals.

 

[Doikor]

It's the same way that the fact that EU workers statistically put more into the system than they take out was ignored. Didn't fit into the narrative of European scroungers overloading our schools and hospitals.

I think most immigration within EU is people moving for work or school (most already know what they are going to do for a living in the country they move to). This is very different from the refugees which is the target of most far right parties in most of Europe. For example here in Finland over 50% of refugees (Of the ones who actually get permits to stay in the country and thus legally work. Naturally the % is even higher if you count the ones who are in the country illegally) are unemployed. For populist far right parties they make such an easy target to get votes from the native populace who are being told that their services will be cut as we cannot afford them while spending hundreds of millions on the refugees.

 

[G.ZZZ]

As the US posters on GAF who eloquently and explicitly have stated that there should be no compromise on fundamental humanity and that throwing marginalized groups under the bus is abhorrent, I too think that moderates, liberals, and leftists need to stop trying to reproduce the argument that the leftist parties need to adopt the same anti-"immigration" policies of the far-right by catering to the emotions of scared white European voters. That doesn't mean challenges of multiculturalism should be ignored, but that easy and simple unrealistic solutions aren't the way to go about it.

Except there always have been compromise , and there always will be, because redistribution of privilege and rights is a very slow thing that has to be done one step at a time. Waking up one morning and deciding that we should never compromise on human rights (hint: we always did) and actively worse the situation for everyone is not a noble act, it's an idealist's stubborn one made from a position of extreme privilege.

Also it's not like politicians talk about the issue in actual terms, they just ignore it from both the left (we need to help) and the right (we need to close borders). There are some policitians that have spoken a bit more in depths on it, but as far as i know, they're in minority currents, the main message that pass has 0 substance. However the message of the left is much harder to swallow for the general population, because it doesn't look like a solution (we help? how? and how many? and for how long? and will it ever end?) while the message of the right looks like one (we just close borders and the issue is solved forever).

However, it cost nothing to the left in actual political terms to just change its message by saying things like:
- we need to make our vetting process better, stricter and faster -> making the process for asylum faster would benefits immensely all asylum seekers
- we need to cooperate more with local communities to isolate radical preachers -> this is something that already happen, and our biggest allies in ousting radical preachers have always been the local moderate communities. This has both the effect of increasing the perception of security by the general population, increase the feeling of cooperation between minority communities and the state, and also isolate potential radical preachers
- we need to help them in their own countries and invest in there to give them less reasons to come here -> looks like a win-win for everyone involved, and if done right would allievate significantly poverty in the world since money doesn't have the same value everywhere. Also, again, build a sense of community and economic interdependence which make wars a much less alluring prospect
etc etc...


But it very rarely does. A left that isn't able to speak to the belly of their voters isn't a left that can win election and is a left that leave actual progress behind for the sake of idealism, making everyone worse off at the same time. Truly the beacon of progress.

Also, this is all happening in the first place because the continent has been, for all intent and purposes, in a stagnation basically forever, youth unemployement has hit 40% in most of southern europe, and unemployment is over 10% all over europe. If you aren't able to economically answer them and aren't willing to compromise on issue that people feel as important (like immigration), then you have 0 political significance. Politicians can't get elected on a platform of nothing.

 

[Machina]

That's a bit difficult when white voters in America clearly don't give a fuck about actual policy. If we "listen" to them, Roe v Wade is gone, Obama never happens and we have Sarah Palin as VP for 8 years.

American whites, most of which are religious care about nothing but social policy, and inevitably a conservative leaning social policy. This is simply not tolerable in 2016. The economy be fucking damned in their minds. If it was important, they would have actually noticed Obama's hard work to clean up Bush's clusterfuck of a term.

 

[fabricated backlash]

I am more and more convinced that both left and right policies have failed us, and are inadequate to meet the challenges of our times.
Mainly because being a politician is a career, not a service.

 

[Shiggy]

German leftist parties are simply incompetent:

- They passed legislation that had negative effects on the pension system and benefited private pension funds, this affected mostly the poor

- They passed legislation (Agenda 2010) which led to the emergence of low paid contract jobs

- They socialist party sits in the ass of large corporations (free trade deals, public private partnerships)

- They largely ignore valid concerns in terms of migration from the Middle East/North Africa. Germany has significant issues with people from that area in terms of integration. Just today there was an incident where a German-born of Kurdish descent tied his wife to his car and then started to drive. Leftist parties and media often try to simply ignore such issues related to integration and say we need to respect their culture, which is not very helpful for tackling such problems. I'm sure the AfD would not be as strong had the concerns in terms of the mass immigration been taken seriously. And to be fair, the poor and those with little education compete with immigrants for housing, jobs, etc. When the government (which consists of a leftist party) suddenly invests a lot into public housing for immigrants, it's not surprising that the poor feel betrayed by leftist parties.


To conclude, at least in Germany one cannot simply blame it on anti-Islam feelings and racism. There are deeper underlying issues at hand. Unlike leftist parties, the German AfD names these issues and does not simply ignore them, thus giving the poorer part of the population (and those who feel left behind) the feeling that somebody is taking them seriously. But just like Trump, the AfD doesn't actually offer any solution and their party program makes it look as if things will become even worse for particularly that group.

So I think it's comparable to some extent. You cannot simply ignore deeper underlying issues of a significant part of your population. To get their votes, you need to offer them some kind of plan. At the same time, I don't think the immigration and integration issues are really comparable.

 

[faisal233]

That's a bit difficult when white voters in America clearly don't give a fuck about actual policy. If we "listen" to them, Roe v Wade is gone, Obama never happens and we have Sarah Palin as VP for 8 years.

American whites, most of which are religious care about nothing but social policy, and inevitably a conservative leaning social policy. This is simply not tolerable in 2016. The economy be fucking damned in their minds. If it was important, they would have actually noticed Obama's hard work to clean up Bush's clusterfuck of a term.

So how come obama was able to win their vote in 08 and 12?

 

[mnz]

Well, the left fell into the trap of free trade.

They liked the idea of an open world and that everybody can work where they like to. Unfortunately in reality this is used to either lower wages like in Germany, where the SPD (used to be the social democratic party) with the agenda 2010 has created millions of poor workers, which like in the US will have huge problems after retirement or even with higher educated to get people from other countries to make the work cheaper.

So one way to solve this, would be more protective, which would also be against their own ideology. Also they don’t feel the pressure that much yet. Yes, they lose a lot of worker votes, but because the left parties have become the intellectual parties, they don’t see that in their personal world view. This is why a party like the SPD can still call a 20% result a victory.

The other problem is the lack of empathy for their former works. Too often the response was, well sucks to be you, perhaps you should learn something different when your job has gone overseas. This made them disconnected to the problems of the regular people and most of their time they spend now with virtual battles, instead of real politics. So the workers without any real political influence are now looking for a new party, which will listen to them. So an easy prey for demagogues and populists. Not that they would actually care, but they can channel the anger, the old parts have produced.

That they use this to deflect this hate towards immigrants or other people is nothing new and it works pretty well.

This is exactly the problem. The left doesn't have a solution for the downsides of globalisation. Their historic base is hit the hardest by its effects, but it's in their DNA to work internationally. Hell, The Internationale is their anthem!

If we go by what Trump has said, new trade barriers are in our immediate future. This will probably be terrible for the economy, but he'll be able to protect certain industries. This will also have immediate effects on the rest of the world and we're seeing one of it right now with Chinese steel. If cheap labor countries cannot export to the US as easily, the pressure on Europe and other industrial nations will rise and they will have to act, too.

Europe has one trump card (sorry) in all of this, though. It's called the common market. I think it's possible for the EU as a whole to go down a certain isolationaism rabbit hole for a while, because we still profit from opening up our own markets to eachother.

The question is just who'll be in the driver seat of all of this and the signs point to populists unless the left has a sudden realisation. You have people like Winfried Kretschmann from the Greens who held a speech at their party congress recently trying to change course, but eventhough he holds the highest office a Green has ever held in Germany, he's basically seen as a traitor aka a conservative.

 

[Ushojax]

The lesson isn't that social progressivism doesn't matter, simply that the white working classes aren't going to cast their vote based on it. Concern for minorities/equality issues are never going to trump their concern for their own livelihoods. If leftist politicians want to win votes they don't need to drop liberal social attitudes, they just need to marry them to an economic message for the working man. People struggling to pay the bills/find a job/buy a house want solutions to those things first and foremost. Trump won because he addressed those concerns (by lying through his teeth). Clinton didn't even try.

Liberal parties around the world are not currently able to articulate an optimistic message to the victims of globalisation.

 

[Machina]

So how come obama was able to win their vote in 08 and 12?

Because the Youth turned out for him in droves. The first black president was a big deal for them and for minorities.

 

[HarryHengst]

This is exactly the problem. The left doesn't have a solution for the downsides of globalisation.

They have and it is called socialism. It is good and cool and if they went back to that they will be able to win elections again.

 

[Machina]

They have and it is called socialism. It is good and cool and if they went back to that they will be able to win elections again.

*Democratic Socialism. The Soviet bogyman is very much alive in America.

 

[El Topo]

The left doesn't have a solution for the downsides of globalisation.

The left doesn't have a solution because there is no solution.
It is not just globalisation, it is also automation and the fundamental change of society.

If we go by what Trump has said, new trade barriers are in our immediate future. This will probably be terrible for the economy, but he'll be able to protect certain industries. This will also have immediate effects on the rest of the world and we're seeing one of it right now with Chinese steel. If cheap labor countries cannot export to the US as easily, the pressure on Europe and other industrial nations will rise and they will have to act, too.

Products from the US will still be at a significant disadvantage everywhere else. The jobs are not coming back.

 

[mnz]

They have and it is called socialism. It is good and cool and if they went back to that they will be able to win elections again.

In Germany? We had 40 years of it. No, thanks.
edit: And to add to that, the Eastern Bloc was extremely insulated. Outside of a few tiny contracts it was basically a world of its own.

The left doesn't have a solution, because there is no solution.
It is not just globalisation, it is automation and the fundamental change of society.

It's not that simple. You can protect your steel industry, you can protect the lumber industry and you can decide on your energy policy. This is all still neded and employs hundreds of thousands of workers.
Not only that but countries like Germany succesfully kept a lot of industrial capability and they are at the forefront of automation.

Products from the US will still be at a significant disadvantage everywhere else. The jobs are not coming back.

I'm not worried about products form the US, this is about Europe. The US already has a trade deficit of about 150 billion Dollars with the EU. New trade barriers will make US products even less attractive.

 

[ClosingADoor]

People that were natural voting left like women and LGBT are not feeling welcome anymore.

It's unbelievable how the left went from being the party for women and LGTB rights towards excusing intolerance and terrible behavior towards those groups as "freedom of religion". Simply baffling.

 

[Dalibor68]

Imagine you get mugged by immigrants, or your boy/girlfriend gets harassed similar to the new year happenings in cologne, or you witness more and more criminal activity by immigrants where you live. Plus constantly reading in the media about incidents.

Then one party tells you you're just a bad racist imagining things whereas the other party tells you yes you're not crazy its real and we'll do something about it.

No shit you're gonna vote for the latter party. You still make the mistake of basing your own perceived reality, which seems to rely heavily on far-left internet echo chambers, as the only one to exist / have any right to morally exist. But that's just wrong because this shit isnt nlack or white and people are formed by their own experiences. The person living next to a refugee shelter who constantly witnesses fights or other abuse will have a different point of view than someone working with individual refugee families or working to get diplomas of higher-educated refugees recognized. Both things are reality and both realities need to be addressed. Which is why parts of the left changed their stance towards a "these people will become valueble parts of our society, BUT those who become criminals or don't integrate are unwelcome/will be deported/etc."

 

[verbatimo]

Poor integration has allowed parallel societies to form where old and outdated traditions have been allowed to grow. Men controlling how women dress and behave in immigrant communities. Gender segregation, religious police, honor killings etc.

Shouting rasist to everyone who dares to speak about these things.

Just look at the Rotherham case.

 

[Funky Papa]

It isn't just that European leftist parties don't cater "white voters": it's that they have turned their backs on the working class outright, and the working class happens to be mostly white. Fixing the issues currently plaguing the working class would fix those aflicting both white workers and the immigrant population.

Meanwhile, they will happily talk about the need to be compassionate towards immigrants and refugees to a population that is increasingly poorer and more desperate to make ends meet. Even if immigrants have it worse, it's not something you are going to sell so easily. Quite the contrary. They have become detached of their constituency.

It doesn't help that many parties surround themselves in a bizarre cultural bubble. Even hard left ones with a strong focus on the economy fail to understand that you can't connect with the unwashed masses by microexplaining everything from a cultural perspective. Case in point, my favourite tweet of 2016:

That's the leader of IU, part of Spain's Unidos Podemos coalition. I think he's a good guy with clear ideas and a compassionate soul. But you have to be a fucking imbecile to blame the heteropatriarchy for both the Orlando shootings and the (local) murder of two women in your first tweet after the fact. It backfired, and it backfired hard. Even if there's a layer of truth to it, it makes you look like a complete buffoon and reinforces the ideas pushed by the alt-right of progressives being a bunch of fools too obsessed with labels and the heteropatriarchy this, the heteropatriarchy that.

As painful as it sounds, hard leftists need to get out of the school campuses for a while and start getting their hands dirty along the proles, just like third way ones need to stop gobbling on caviar at big movie premieres and listen to the plight of small business owners instead.

 

[HarryHengst]

In Germany? We had 40 years of it. No, thanks.

That wasnt socialism (except in name but that means nothing) of course, because the workers did not own the companies they worked for. Also planned economies are just dumb and markets are fine. Its just capitalism with its wealth accumulation and shareholders and owners that dont care about workers that are bad.

Or people can continue to go ''socialism is bad and i dont get why the right keeps winning????"

 

[ReBurn]

That wasnt socialism (except in name but that means nothing) of course, because the workers did not own the companies they worked for. Also planned economies are just dumb and markets are fine. Its just capitalism with its wealth accumulation and shareholders and owners that dont care about workers that are bad.

Or people can continue to go ''socialism is bad and i dont get why the right keeps winning????"

What's an example where socialism has worked?

 

[faisal233]

Because the Youth turned out for him in droves. The first black president was a big deal for them and for minorities.

The youth vote doesn't explain why obama won or did strongly in white working class counties in the rust belt. Have you actually looked at the data before creating your narrative.

 

[His Majesty]

The left parties (labor, greens) in Holland who traditionally focused on blue collar workers shifted its attention to immigrant voters a couple of decades ago. These people either took their votes more to the left (socialist party) or to the far right (Freedom Party)

We see the same phenomenon in Belgium. The traditional socialist parties are in decline and voters are moving to communist and right-wing parties.

Keep in mind that I'm not saying that politicians should ignore the challenges of multi-culturalism, far from it (Funky Papa had a really good post about it that I can't find right now). I'm just saying that I find it concerning that the Left should compromise on human rights and the basic dignity of viewing all people as equal worth of humanity, because white Europeans have these emotional reactions to multiculturalism that is especially fueled by the right-winged media's reporting on them.

That's exactly what the traditional left parties have done though. Molenbeek was governed for decades by socialist mayors and the rise of radical Islam was ignored. Suggestions to crack down on extremist preachers were laughed away as far-right nonsense, even when they came from other muslims.

Add in faster naturalisation laws, lack of an integration policy and a shift from focusing on economic issues to focusing on cultural issues and they have alienated their traditional voter base in a very effective manner.

 

[El Topo]

It's not that simple. You can protect your steel industry, you can protect the lumber industry and you can decide on your energy policy.

You can only attempt to protect industry that does not have to export. Even then, trade barriers cost consumers and the related industries dearly. Furthermore you are setting yourself up to retaliation from other countries, especially if you are severely dependent on those countries in certain areas (e.g. rare earths).

Trump's "I am stronger, therefore I win" approach is nonsensical.

I'm not worried about products form the US, this is about Europe.

I'm trying to point out that trade barriers in general are not a feasible approach. They have their use, but they are not a solution. This is about much more than globalisation and you can't put the genie back in the bottle.

 

[Fantastapotamus]

European Left is completely stretched in incompatible vue:

They use to be staunchly anti-religious but are now standing more on the side of Islam.

They use to be for workers protection yet immigration is putting power inside capitalist hands with cheap labor and putting pressure on European social safety net.

People that were natural voting left like women and LGBT are not feeling welcome anymore.

What? I guess by "standing more in the side of Islam" you mean "Not calling every Muslim a terrorist" cause I have no idea what else you could possibly mean.

 

[Kinyou]

Why is "appealing to white voters" instantly taken as throwing minorities under the bus? The discussions I've seen on this forum were always focused on the voters who lost their coal jobs or who face the heroin problem in the US. Hillary going to those people and trying to offer solutions doesn't seem to harm anyone to me. I haven't heard anyone here say that the left shouldn't support blm to gain more white voters or something like that.

 

[mnz]

That wasnt socialism (except in name but that means nothing) of course, because the workers did not own the companies they worked for. Also planned economies are just dumb and markets are fine. Its just capitalism with its wealth accumulation and shareholders and owners that dont care about workers that are bad.

Or people can continue to go ''socialism is bad and i dont get why the right keeps winning????"

Same old communist spiel. All real world applications of your ideas ended in disaster and were actual real world history in Germany. No chance for a comeback and thank god for that.

.

I know all of that, that's why I said the economy will suffer. Trump still won with this plan and I'm convinced he will artificially prop up some of these industries only for others to suffer. But Europe is in a different situation. We're sill opening up our internal markets with positive effects. We have cheaper labor countries within Europe with a lot of potential. I think it could be a very positive and pro-EU message to bet on our capabilities without installing trade barriers that are too ridiculous. The EU is still a net exporter of about 250 billion Euro and we benefit from trade.

 

[Carpe Libertatem]

The youth vote doesn't explain why obama won or did strongly in white working class counties in the rust belt. Have you actually looked at the data before creating your narrative.

Because they thought the Republican party failed them, given we were in a recession under Bush. So they voted against the GOP.

That's one of the reasons why Trump won and why we have very rarely had the same party hold the presidency for an extended period of time (FDR being an exception). Eventually people want something new.

 

[ClosingADoor]

What? I guess by "standing more in the side of Islam" you mean "Not calling every Muslim a terrorist" cause I have no idea what else you could possibly mean.

Leftist parties should do a lot more to condemn the lack of women rights and the hostile attitudes towards the LGTB community within the Muslim community. The leftist tradition has always been one of feminism and standing up for gay rights. Yet in this instance, the silence is deafening because they are afraid to be branded as racist.

 

[MistakenMobius]

What? I guess by "standing more in the side of Islam" you mean "Not calling every Muslim a terrorist" cause I have no idea what else you could possibly mean.

Well Not so long ago,

The left goal was to get rid of religion:
As said in French:
"Hang the last boss with the guts of the last priest "

Yet the left is far more tolerant with bigotry coming from migrant communities like Molenbeek in Belgium and the Rotterham scandal.

 

[Oppo]

Right now... I might get some heat for this, but actually, no, I don't think they should "listen to white voters" or make that any sort of priority whatsoever. A gigantic pile of apathetic Democrats stayed home. I don't know if they were sore about Bernie or just got mired in "both sides bad" rhetoric or what. Get them back. Forget the xenophobes. I'd energize my own base if I were a democrat. Just like Trump did. And yeah, go hard left like Bernie (well hard left for US anyway).

All that said, there's a way to appeal to a broad cross-section of workers while implicitly writing an inclusive platform. I believe that. 'cause guess what, there's a lot of fucking poor people from all backgrounds and origins.

The trick is to keep certain elements from eating their own, something the left is pretty adroit at, as you pointed out Lime. Obama did pull this off. In the US specifically you need a major "change candidate" – I think this is the odd line that connects Trump and Obama, people believed Obama would shake things up, they believe now that Trump will shake things up... basically anything that doesn't look like a normal politician gets a vote.

I'm not sure what it means worldwide yet. There does seem to be a pointed anti-immigration and anti-refugee sentiment globally in the western nations. But I can't tell if Trump and Brexit are merely two dark points next to each other, or the beginning of a line.

From where I sit in Canada we're basically looking at each other and mouthing "what the fuck is happening". I can't tell if we've passed our conservative pendulum phase (Harper) or if it's in the mail to arrive after Trudeau (who right now seems like will get a 2nd term but who knows anymore).

Leftist parties should do a lot more to condemn the lack of women rights and the hostile attitudes towards the LGTB community within the Muslim community. The leftist tradition has always been one of feminism and standing up for gay rights. Yet in this instance, the silence is deafening because they are afraid to be branded as racist.

Great example of the "party self cannabalism" mentioned earlier, I agree.

 

[HarryHengst]

Same old communist spiel. All real world applications of your ideas ended in disaster and were actual real world history in Germany. No chance for a comeback and thank god for that.

I guess socialism isnt coming back in Germany, but have fun with the continued increase in neo-Nazism and fascism thanks to parties like the AFD that can grow because capitalism is failing everyone but the richest. The left wont safe you as long as they continue to think capitalism can be tamed.

Also, we are living in a real world disaster thanks to capitalism, because a mass, man-made, extinction is happening right now and oh i guess the north pole is melting right in front of our eyes. But no, i guess thats not capitalism, right?

 

[andythinkpad]

we have to get over this "you must work" mindset and realize that not everyone can have a job and that a lot of jobs dont pay a livable wage. I feel like this can be combatted with a mixture of UBI and setting the minimum wage to be a living wage. we have to stomp out poverty as poverty is creating hate towards others even when it is not deserved.

You sound like a globalization trader hiding yourself behind the robot argument.

 

[Dalibor68]

I guess socialism isnt coming back in Germany, but have fun with the continued increase in neo-Nazism and fascism thanks to parties like the AFD that can grow because capitalism is failing everyone but the richest. The left wont safe you as long as they continue to think capitalism can be tamed.

Also, we are living in a real world disaster thanks to capitalism, because a mass, man-made, extinction is happening right now and oh i guess the north pole is melting right in front of our eyes. But no, i guess thats not capitalism, right?

You're still in denial. I've said it before, you could throw 100€ bills in many voters faces and they still wouldn't come back to you. The topic number one is immigration. A majority does not want mass migration from the poorest and most war-torn places on this planet and the changes coming with that. The sooner politicians realize that immigration is the #1 issue, the faster we can move on and find solutions instead of still believing some naive fairy-tales about "socialism will safe us and squash facism!".

 

[Poodlestrike]

This is exactly the problem. The left doesn't have a solution for the downsides of globalisation. Their historic base is hit the hardest by its effects, but it's in their DNA to work internationally. Hell, The Internationale is their anthem!

If we go by what Trump has said, new trade barriers are in our immediate future. This will probably be terrible for the economy, but he'll be able to protect certain industries. This will also have immediate effects on the rest of the world and we're seeing one of it right now with Chinese steel. If cheap labor countries cannot export to the US as easily, the pressure on Europe and other industrial nations will rise and they will have to act, too.

Europe has one trump card (sorry) in all of this, though. It's called the common market. I think it's possible for the EU as a whole to go down a certain isolationaism rabbit hole for a while, because we still profit from opening up our own markets to eachother.

The question is just who'll be in the driver seat of all of this and the signs point to populists unless the left has a sudden realisation. You have people like Winfried Kretschmann from the Greens who held a speech at their party congress recently trying to change course, but eventhough he holds the highest office a Green has ever held in Germany, he's basically seen as a traitor aka a conservative.

Except wait, yes, we do. Retraining, social safety nets, and increased infrastructural spending would all go a long way to ameliorating the damage done to the working class by automation and globalization, and all are part of Western left-of-center parties. The working class doesn't give a damn about any of that. The second someone starts promising some unreal return to the past + blaming everything on those scary brown people, they vote for them.

 

[aeolist]

it's not the white working class, it's just the working class. liberals have been rightly pushing the agendas of minorities while completely ignoring the fact that class is another facet of identity politics that needs to be addressed.

address the class divide and economic problems with unfettered capitalism. the left needs the venn diagram of working class and minority voters to come out for them, which means a simultaneous and coequal focus on the issues that matter to those groups.

these discussions make me feel like everyone somehow forgot the term "intersectionality" in the last few weeks.

 

[HarryHengst]

You're still in denial. I've said it before, you could throw 100€ bills in many voters faces and they still wouldn't come back to you. The topic number one is immigration. A majority does not want mass migration from the poorest and most war-torn places on this planet and the changes coming with that. The sooner politicians realize that immigration is the #1 issue, the faster we can move on and find solutions instead of still believing some naive fairy-tales about "socialism will safe us and squash facism!".

Immigration is a distraction from the real issues. If the left continues down that lane it will just continue to lose to the right because the right will always be better at blatant racism and telling people all their worries will be gone if we just kick out a few more undesirables (and just lower taxes a bit more).

If people feel secure in their jobs and/or income (because there will never be enough jobs for everyone anymore so we need basic income or negative income tax or whatever) they will care a whole lot less about immigration. But they dont, and parties like the AFD or Wilders in the Netherlands are great at deflecting that insecurity towards ''others'.

 

[hodgy100]

You sound like a globalization trader hiding yourself behind the robot argument.

Im a game developer. I believe that people should have the freedom to go where they are needed / where they want to. That's bad now?

 

[ClosingADoor]

Except wait, yes, we do. Retraining, social safety nets, and increased infrastructural spending would all go a long way to ameliorating the damage done to the working class by automation and globalization, and all are part of Western left-of-center parties. The working class doesn't give a damn about any of that. The second someone starts promising some unreal return to the past + blaming everything on those scary brown people, they vote for them.

How do you finance this in a stagnating continent though? We have social safety nets, but someone has to pay for them in the end.

 

[Funky Papa]

I think that racism being the #1 issue for most folks in Europe is a severe misdiagnose of the situation. Racism is to the current problems plaguing the working class what a high fever is to typhus: a nasty and very evident sympthom that may kill you, but not the disease per se.