• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Islamic Jihard Army message IN ENGLISH

Status
Not open for further replies.

Azih

Member
Folder said:
*holds head in hands*
Alright I'm not going to let this go. Let's go through this again.

The *reason* I got into this horrorfest of a thread is basically because you're saying

I believe he's ethnically Iraqi.
I guarantee that politically and socio-ethically he's as Iraqi as me.

and the only backup that you've given for that ludicrous statement is

Aside from the fact that his opinion differs to every singly majority opinion reported from an independant source the length and bredth of the country...
what the hell are these reports? And why the FERK are you ignoring the points I made about firstrom being MORE politically and socio-ethically Iraqi as you? I don't care about your discussion with Guileless, I care about your characterisation of firestrom.


Now certainly you've backed off from your previously ludicrous stance to the merely inane position of
My only point is that you cannot hold him up as being representative of Iraqis or as representing validation to the *insane* ramblings of Guileless

but that's still not enough.

Edit: Because you see by dismissing firestrom as you have (for no good reason) you're cutting yourself off from the words of an ACTUAL IRAQI. This is a very very bad thing. I can appreciate the fact that you have a very set political stance on what's happening in that region but don't make the horrible mistake of IGNORING the words of actual people from that region that don't mesh with your world view.

Where else will you have the opportunity to talk to a person with an actual personal connection to the region dammit?

Edit: Also I *know* that he's not representative of Iraqis because I just freaking argued the point that THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A REPRESENTATIVE IRAQI.
 

Azih

Member
The ad hominem attacks on firestrom's relatives in Iraq threw me.

It's like Firest0rm hates more the Sunnites who afterall are his people than the invading power which murdered thousands more than Saddam ever did
confused me too. The sunnies aren't firestorms people. After all I made clear that the division between Sunnite and Shiite is pretty damn large, especially in Iraq where you know the majority Shiites were pretty much OPPRESSED by the minority Sunnites over the past few DECADES.

And this of course blew my mind because it is quite possible the stupidest thing I've ever heard
At least Saddam cared for his country and it's economy unlike the new puppets which will certainly approve the ridiculous humiliating for Iraq and most important, illegal oil contracts USA has made.


Edit: Because not only did you say Saddam CARED FOR HIS COUNTRY and ITS ECONOMY (which would have qualified as stupidest thing ever on its own), you also went on to declare him superior to a future government that DOESN'T EXIST YET. GRAHG
 

Loki

Count of Concision
Che said:
Also it's obvious that he's not aware of many many things about Iraq no matter how he claims that he's relatives are there (plus we don't know many things about them -are they poor are they rich connected with american interests etc etc.). It's like Firest0rm hates more the Sunnites who afterall are his people than the invading power which murdered thousands more than Saddam ever did. At least Saddam cared for his country and it's economy unlike the new puppets which will certainly approve the ridiculous humiliating for Iraq and most important, illegal oil contracts USA has made.

W...T...F. :lol
 

Firest0rm

Member
Nice try folder but your nothing close to an Iraqi, I might have not lived in Iraq but the rest of my family has and some still do. My views truthfully, are based around theirs. Their experiences and their losses from the ba'ath regime. Where do you get your views from? And when you say that the majority don't have the same opinion as me, where do you have the facts to back it up?

As for Che, I'm sorry but I'm not going to bother with you anymore. You have little understanding towards the situation in Iraq. It's unfortunate that you think that Saddam cared for Iraq's people and the economy. However I lived in Jordan for 12 years and I have seen alot of the same views, blinded by the hatred towards everything American.

BTW can you and Folder tell me where your each from ?

edit: And thanks Azih I appreciate you defending me.
 

Shompola

Banned
"which murdered thousands more than Saddam ever did. At least Saddam cared for his country and it's economy"

Saddam is indirectly responsible for over 1 million deaths thanks to starting a war. Of course USA and more or less the entire world was supporting Iraq but it doesn't change the fact that he has killed far more people than the coalition forces have. The coalition forces are not handing the Iraq situation very well but they sure haven't fucked it up as bad as Saddam did.
 

Guileless

Temp Banned for Remedial Purposes
Folder and Che are effectively leftist carciatures at this point. Do y'all see how many people are dumbfounded by what you are posting? Your assumptions about the world do not hold up under practical strain. The world cannot be explained by any single ideology.

I think Azih and firest0rm would agree with me on this point. Because of personal experience, they both know more about this than any of us and they are telling you that your preconceived notions, when applied to this situation in Iraq, are wrong. Commited ideologues refuse to admit they are wrong. Hence the absurdity of you calling firest0rm "not a real Iraqi".

This is how you are conducting your argument: Whatever is said, you write it off, offering no reason for doing so. You then say that no argument has been offered. It's cheap and it's transparent.

You still haven't offered a coherent argument. Hell yes I'm writing off your conclusory statements. Conclusory statements, without anything to back them up, are worthless in a discussion where you are trying to persuade someone you are right. Apparently your arguments are based on your own assumptions derived from your obviously far leftist worldview. As Che has demonstrated, ideological ranting does not make for persuasive argument when you're talking to people who do not share that particular worldview.

For the fourth time, please explain the war for oil theory in a coherent argument that I can understand. If you persuade me, I will say that you are right and will link to this thread in every subsequent Iraq thread so everyone else will understand the truth.

I'm on holiday and my internet access is very spotty, so I will not be able to check the board again for a few days. You can take your time. I look forward to your coherent explanation of the war for oil theory, with a factual basis that persuades me that you are right.
 
F

Folder

Unconfirmed Member
Guileless said:
Folder and Che are effectively leftist carciatures at this point. Do y'all see how many people are dumbfounded by what you are posting? Your assumptions about the world do not hold up under practical strain. The world cannot be explained by any single ideology.

I think Azih and firest0rm would agree with me on this point. Because of personal experience, they both know more about this than any of us and they are telling you that your preconceived notions, when applied to this situation in Iraq, are wrong. Commited ideologues refuse to admit they are wrong. Hence the absurdity of you calling firest0rm "not a real Iraqi".



You still haven't offered a coherent argument. Hell yes I'm writing off your conclusory statements. Conclusory statements, without anything to back them up, are worthless in a discussion where you are trying to persuade someone you are right. Apparently your arguments are based on your own assumptions derived from your obviously far leftist worldview. As Che has demonstrated, ideological ranting does not make for persuasive argument when you're talking to people who do not share that particular worldview.

For the fourth time, please explain the war for oil theory in a coherent argument that I can understand. If you persuade me, I will say that you are right and will link to this thread in every subsequent Iraq thread so everyone else will understand the truth.

I'm on holiday and my internet access is very spotty, so I will not be able to check the board again for a few days. You can take your time. I look forward to your coherent explanation of the war for oil theory, with a factual basis that persuades me that you are right.
Wow!
You did it again:



Guileless. This is how you are conducting your argument: Whatever is said, you write it off, offering no reason for doing so. You then say that no argument has been offered. It's cheap and it's transparent.


--Here's some facts Folder (facts are verifiable data that are used to support an argument). For the first time in human history, a majority of the globe lives under some form of representative government. Living standards, across the board, are the highest they have ever been, and they are rising. Is this indicative of a world suffering under the demonic control of a hegemon? I would say no, but perhaps you can convince me otherwise.

Simply not true. Taken as a mean, that is an unrepresentative figure. The wealth divide is widening. THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT. The endless warning from independant humanitarian organisations, the organisations you have deemed fit to ignore throughout this debate, illustrate this. For reference, the famine in Sudan and Ethiopia is worse now than in 1984

--What exactly is "demonic" control, and what are its hallmarks?

That would be the exploitation of the world's poor for the gain of the world's rich

--When you explain your concept of demonic US control, please discuss the recent histories of South Korea, Germany, Japan, Italy, Eastern Europe, Afghanistan, Kuwait, and Kosovo. How are their recent histories examples of demonic US control?

Do you really think that UN-guided military intervention counts as a feather in the US cap? LOL. Hilarious. Might wonder where that UN backing was with Iraq... And as for your *comedy* selection of US military interventions, there are still huge swathes of Central and South America, South East Asia and the Africa still is absolute crisis following US intervention over the past 50 years. Do I need to point out which nations they are? Do I really? As for Kuwait, thank the lord you stepped in there. Although they have public beheadings and one of the worst human rights records on the planet, especially with regard to women, at least they sell you guys cheap oil. A connection? Surely not.

--Imagine that isolationists in the US had won the debate over WW2 and there had been no US military intervention in Europe; would the world be more or less demonic if the Nazi or Soviet empires had endured until today?

Yeah. That way the US wouldn't have been able to test out its new exciting nuclear weapon toy on the civilians of Japan. That would have been a real shame. Or does Japan not count?

--Tell me about the demonic control exerted by the US over you personally. How does it work? What makes it "demonic?"

That would be the exploitation of the world's poor for the gain of the world's rich... I have to live in a world which pretends children don't die of starvation whilst the rich select new golden bath fixtures. And there's little (more than I do already) I can do to change this.


You simply ignore everything...
So what's the point?
 

Guileless

Temp Banned for Remedial Purposes
For the fifth time, please offer a coherent argument as to why, as you posted almost a week ago, the "war for oil" theory explains the Iraq war. Ask me any question you want and I will make a good faith effort to answer it. We'll go from there.

And while I might respect your arguments if they were from a Peace Corps activist or missionary, spare me the "I'm morally superior to you because I get on a message board and tell people I cry because there's no global leftist utopia" plea for attention. The mind boggles at the self-absorption required to post something as selfish and offensive as that.
 
F

Folder

Unconfirmed Member
Guileless said:
For the fifth time, please offer a coherent argument as to why, as you posted almost a week ago, the "war for oil" theory explains the Iraq war. Ask me any question you want and I will make a good faith effort to answer it. We'll go from there.

And while I might respect your arguments if they were from a Peace Corps activist or missionary, spare me the "I'm morally superior to you because I get on a message board and tell people I cry because there's no global leftist utopia" plea for attention. The mind boggles at the self-absorption required to post something as selfish and offensive as that.
It's that kind of jaded view that enables you to propogate the opinion that bringing war on the world's poorest to steal their natural resources for the benefit of the world's richest is an acceptable practice. As you mentioned, whilst filling up with $2 gasoline.
 
F

Folder

Unconfirmed Member
"It's pretty straightforward," said former CIA director R. James Woolsey, who has been one of the leading advocates of forcing Hussein from power. "France and Russia have oil companies and interests in Iraq. They should be told that if they are of assistance in moving Iraq toward decent government, we'll do the best we can to ensure that the new government and American companies work closely with them." But he added: "If they throw in their lot with Saddam, it will be difficult to the point of impossible to persuade the new Iraqi government to work with them."

It's ours now! Ha ha ha!

Some considered reading broken down into easily igorable chapters:

Tony Benn, the veteran British socialist, described the British Broadcasting Corporation (BBC) in its coverage of Iraq as a "weapon of mass deception".

This could be applied with equal if not greater force to Colin Powell’s 80-minute ‘report’ on Iraq to the United Nations Security Council on 5 February.

It has not succeeded in its intended aim to roll back the worldwide mass wave of opposition to the Bush junta’s plans for a bloody invasion of Iraq.

The significance of Powell’s speech lay in that it clearly marked the transformation of "doves" into "hawks" within the US administration. Few doubters or sceptics would have been won over by the barrage of ‘facts’, the "smudgy old photos and blurred taped conversations" (Daily Mirror, London) as a justification for going to war.

This was certainly not the ‘smoking gun’, irrefutable proof of Iraq’s secret arsenal of weapons of mass destruction (WMD), nor was it the ‘Adlai Stevenson moment’ (during the Cuban missile crisis in 1962 the then US ambassador to the UN dramatically utilised photographs of the deployment of Russian missiles in Cuba to win support).

Powell
It is true that Joseph Biden, the senior Democrat on the US Senate Foreign Relations Committee is now a ‘believer’. Previously complaining that the US administration had failed to make the case for war, he has now declared, "If I had this evidence before an unbiased jury, I’d get a conviction." He is a lawyer by profession, as are many US ‘legislators’ (75% of the world’s lawyers are in the US).

But Powell, now a paid up member of the ‘hawk’ wing of the Bush regime, has not succeeded in proving the case for war before the court of world public opinion and particularly in the eyes of working-class people internationally, who will be called upon to pay the ultimate price for Bush and Blair’s onslaught against Iraq.

The USA, Britain and other major capitalist powers have no right to intervene in Iraq or other countries. They are planning this military onslaught, not out of concern for the plight of the Iraqi people but to secure control of the oil fields and not because of weapons of mass destruction allegedly held by Iraq.

It is the task of the Iraqi people, with the support and assistance of the international working class, to overthrow the brutal dictatorship of Saddam Hussein and not that of US imperialism and its allies. However, even by the ‘criteria’ of the ruling class, the case presented by Powell to the UN Security Council was flawed on each substantial charge.

In judging the veracity of Powell’s speech we should not forget that both Bush and Blair produced dossiers last September which were supposed to be crushing indictments of the Iraqi regime’s ‘non-compliance’. These have now been shelved because they were totally discredited by the weapons inspectors’ findings, which did not bear out their accusations. Former UN weapons inspector, Count Hans von Sponeck, has now stated:

"The inspectors have found nothing that was in the Bush/Blair dossiers of last September. What happened to them? They are totally embarrassed by them. But I have seen facilities in pieces in Iraq which US intelligence reports say are dangerous. The Institute of Strategic Studies referred to the Al Faluja’s three castor oil production units and the Al Dora foot and mouth centre as ‘facilities for concern’. In 2002 I saw them and they were destroyed, there was nothing. All that was left was shells of buildings."

Speech
Despite its length, Powell’s speech was thin on conclusive evidence to back up the main claims to justify a war. Robert Fisk, the trenchant critic of the US’s international role and exposer of the hypocrisy of the Bush regime in particular, described Powell’s performance as worthy of the Irish playwright Samuel Beckett.

He described Powell’s presentation as a

"mixture of awesomely funny recordings of Iraqi Republican Guard telephone intercepts, à la Samuel Beckett, that just might have been some terrifying little proof that Saddam is really conning the UN inspectors again, and some ancient material on the monster of Baghdad’s all too well known record of beastliness. I’m still waiting to hear the Arabic for the state department’s translation of ‘OK buddy’ – ‘consider it done, sir’ – this from the Republican Guard’s ‘Captain Ibrahim’, for heaven’s sake."

He goes on to describe,

"Some dinky illustrations of mobile bio-labs whose lorries and railway tracks were in such perfect condition that they suggest that the Pentagon did not have much idea of the dilapidated state of Saddam’s army… We were forced to listen to Iraq’s officer corps communicating by phone – ‘yeah,’ ‘yeah?’ ‘yeah’ – it was impossible not to ask oneself if Colin Powell had really considered the effect that this would have on the outside world." (The Independent, London, 6 February)

On the main charges against Saddam, Powell’s case is ‘not enough’ and remains ‘unproven’. On the issues of chemical and biological weapons, Iraq is accused of having 100-500 tonnes of chemical weapons agents and 16,000 battlefield rockets, with 65 factories producing a range of munitions. Moreover, four different sources have confirmed, in the view of Powell, that Saddam had seven sophisticated mobile biological weapons labs loaded on 18 lorries that could be used to make anthrax, smallpox or ricin.

It is possible, even probable, that Saddam, despite the claims to the contrary, does possess chemical and biological weapons. These are probably being kept in reserve for possible use in the event of an invasion. He has used chemical and biological weapons against the Kurdish people in the north of Iraq and in the Iran/Iraq war, as mentioned by Powell in his speech. Conveniently forgotten, however, is that these weapons were initially supplied by US imperialism and that Saddam was personally endorsed by Rumsfeld when he visited Iraq in December 1983 on behalf of Reagan. The ‘monster of Baghdad’ is the Frankenstein monster created by US imperialism.

Powell’s recycled material
Most of the evidence produced by Powell and by the US administration is recycled material and no case has been made that, in their terms, these weapons, as with nuclear weapons, pose a ‘clear and present danger’ either to the neighbouring countries around Iraq or to the US. Holding up a phial of ‘anthrax’ to indicate the danger of biological weapons and linking this via Iraq to the deaths of US workers in the aftermath of 11 September 2001 was totally dishonest of Powell. Is there little wonder that half the American population now believe that it was Iraqis who were behind the 11 September attacks, when it was clearly perpetrated by non Iraqi’s?

On the issue of nuclear weapons, Powell once more rehashed previous arguments of Saddam’s acquisition of high-resolution aluminium tubes which can be modified into centrifuges to produce enriched uranium for a nuclear device. This is despite the fact that the weapons inspectors themselves have suggested that these tubes are for the making of conventional artillery rockets. Conscious of the weakness of his argument, Powell did acknowledge "different views" on this issue. But as an ‘old soldier’, he was right and others were wrong.

Dan Plesch, senior research fellow at the Royal United Services Institute (London), said that what was missing was any evidence of a bomb factory or bomb-making equipment. He also added: "All Powell could come up with was one possible component. Scarcely proof of an effective bomb programme. Powell has also alleged materials were being moved after leaks from UN inspectors. Hans Blix, head of the inspectors, has flatly denied this and said they saw no fresh tyre tracks at bases visited or any evidence of banned toxic materials in soil samples."

But as the radical Campaign Against the Arms Trade pointedly commented: "It is all very well demanding war on Iraq for allegedly failing to open up to weapons inspectors. America is the world’s biggest developer of weapons of mass destruction and of exploiting loopholes to keep research secret."

Moreover, many countries now possess the capability of producing nuclear bombs but they are not threatened with invasion by US imperialism. For instance, the Financial Times reported on 29 January: "Japan yesterday admitted that 206 kilograms of plutonium – enough to make about 25 nuclear bombs – is unaccounted for at a nuclear reprocessing facility."

The disintegration of the former Soviet Union, a consequence of the collapse of Stalinism, has left a completely ‘degraded’ nuclear industry which allows potential terrorists to acquire the knowledge to assemble a nuclear device. There is an abundance of caesium in this region, as in the US itself, that would allow the construction of ‘dirty bombs’ which could have the same effect through radioactive fallout as the deployment of nuclear weapons themselves.

Horrifying
The most horrifying threat is posed by the North Korean Stalinist regime of Kim Jong-il, which is partly or mainly the consequence of the lunatic policy of the Bush regime towards North Korea (see Socialism Today 72, February 2003). In the past few days, it has been reported that the North Korean regime is moving fissile material out of its nuclear facilities, which it has been suggested can be sold by the regime, as they have done in the past, to nuclear or potential nuclear states and terrorist organisations. This was linked to the deployment of 24 B-52 and B-1 bombers to strengthen the USA forces in South Korea. According to Pyongyang the USS Kitty Hawk has also taken up strike position.

The US has opted to confront the danger by ‘diplomacy’. This turns the argument of Bush on its head. His regime argues that Iraq must be attacked to prevent it developing nuclear weapons and other weapons of mass destruction. However, when a regime such as North Korea has a nuclear weapon then the US is prepared to negotiate with it.

Such regimes could conclude that the acquiring of nuclear weapons is the only way to prevent attacks from US imperialism. However, it has leaked into the press that some sections of the US administration have even contemplated a ‘pre-emptive’ strike against North Korea which, in these circumstances, would involve the use of nuclear weapons by the US with the danger of retaliation from North Korea and all the calamitous consequences that flow from that.

US imperialism has now embraced the doctrine of the pre-emptive strike which will increase instability and conflict in international relations. It will open the prospect of other regimes attempting to launch a pre-emptive strike to advance their own interests.

Michael R Gordan wrote in the New York Times that following September 11 the ‘Bush administration has turned pre-emption from an option into a cardinal principle of its foreign policy’. He rightly warned that ‘The doctrine tends to leave the door open to others who want to claim the same right’. (International Herald Tribune 27/1/03 ). Within two weeks of this warning the North Korean regime threatened that pre-emptive strikes were not the preserve of the Bush administration.

Osama bin Laden
As to the link which Powell has allegedly established between al-Qa’ida, and Osama bin Laden personally, and the Iraqi regime, it has been dismissed as not serious even by capitalist commentators and ‘terrorism experts’. On matters of detail Powell was completely wrong. He referred to ‘decades’ of contact between Saddam and al-Qa’ida and yet the latter only came into existence five years ago. As Robert Fisk acidly comments: "Bin Laden – decades ago – was working against the Russians for the CIA, whose present-day director was sitting grey-faced behind General Powell."

Even the International Herald Tribune, which has now become largely an apologist for Bush, commented that Powell "did not succeed in drawing a direct line" between Saddam and bin Laden. Bin Laden in his recent warning said the Iraqi regime was "socialist" and "infidel" but argued that "It does not harm in these circumstances that the interests of Muslims and socialists intersect". The CWI rejects the idea that the Iraqi regime has anything in common with genuine socialism - socialists have no common interests with Bin Laden or al-Qaida.

The charge that al-Qa’ida operatives worked out of north-eastern Iraq – in the Kurdish region – with some of them domiciled in Baghdad was not proof of connivance with al-Qa’ida terrorists. There was no mention of course of US support for Israel and its occupation of Palestinian land. Powell invoked Iraq’s support for the Palestinian organisation, Hamas, without mentioning that the same organisation has offices in Beirut, Damascus and Iran.

In bolstering his case for an Iraq/al-Qa’ida link, Powell, even according to British ‘security sources’, was "jumping to conclusions" (The Guardian, London). "A plot" hatched by Musab al-Zarqawi in Iraq to set up a network of terrorists to carry out "poison and explosive attacks" allegedly resulted in an attack in Britain where "one British police officer was murdered" (The Guardian, London). But British "security sources" said there was "no solid evidence to support Powell’s allegations. He was "jumping to conclusions".

The reality, however, is that al-Qa’ida, more of a broad ‘holding company’ for like-minded terrorists than a centralised organisation, is now present in most of the countries of Western Europe. This, however, has not elicited a threat to bomb these countries or wage war on them as faces Iraq. Powell’s testimony before the UN was not, however, tailored to persuade and convince but to bully and intimidate the rest of the capitalist world to fall into line behind US imperialism’s war plans.

Hawks
The fact that Powell is now firmly in the camp of the ‘hawks’ is proof of the determination of the wing of the US ruling class, which is behind the Bush administration, to go to the end in a war to topple Saddam. Powell spoke in the same language and with the same threats as Bush did when he spoke to the UN in September. He warned that unless the Security Council backed the US it would become an "irrelevancy", a latter-day League of Nations.

A decision by the United Nations to support a military assault may temporarily partially increase support for the war – especially in the USA and Britain. However, such a decision would also eventually lead to the undermining and discrediting of the UN. At the same time if it fails to support a war it will be increasingly seen as an irrelevance when faced with the might of US imperialism.

Powell’s speech was couched in the implicitly brutal terms used by Bush after 11 September: "Either you are with us or you’re against us." This means that the ‘train of war’ has left the station and will not be stopped or derailed by any obstacles on the track. Bush in his State of the Union speech made it absolutely clear that Saddam will be overthrown, with or without UN approval, and in a ‘time-line’ determined by US imperialism. Powell’s speech is cast in the same mould as his master.

He was perceived, wrongly, as a ‘dove’, a ‘voice of reason’ in an otherwise bellicose US administration by sections even of the anti-war movement in Western Europe and elsewhere. In previous conflicts was anything but "dovelike" and headed the troops which invaded Grenada and Kuwait.

He is a multi-millionaire, as is his son, and an integral part of the US ruling class. His differences with the ‘hawks’ are those of procedure, of posture, and of seeking a ‘coalition’ behind an invasion of Iraq. But it seems that the Europeans were asking for ‘more time’ for the inspectors to do their job and this has tipped Powell into the camp of the hawks. His speech illustrated his transformation from "dove" to "hawk". I

n so doing he is showing the steely and brutal determination of the Bush regime, with the oil and gas capitalists celebrating in their rear, to overthrow Saddam and grab the second-largest oil reserves in the world. They expect that this re-colonisation of Iraq, to give it its right name, will enormously enhance the US ‘empire’ and force the peoples of the world, particularly in the neo-colonial world, to recognise their ‘impotence’ in the face of such awesome power. The consequences of this will represent a social and political earthquake in the Middle east and internationally. It could provoke an international Islamic "Intifada" and a wave of terrorism with horrific consequences.

Splits
The conflict has opened up unprecedented splits amongst the ruling class within and between all of the main imperialist powers and particularly between the USA and Europe. It has unleashed considerable nationalist sentiments in some countries. The recent divisions between France, Germany and Belgium on the one hand and the USA and Britain on the other in NATO have provoked vicious anti-French ravings in the US press.

US commentators referred to an unholy alliance of "whimps" and "ingrates" which include one country that is little more than a "mini-me-minion (Belgium) and another that is in league with Cuba and Libya, with a bunch of cheese-eating surrender monkeys" at the helm. The front page of Rupert Murdoch’s New York Post showed the graves in Normandy with the headline: "They died for France but France has forgotten." The Wall Street Journal described Chirac as: "a positive monster of conceit …the abject procurer for Saddam ... the rat that tried to roar."

Behind the abuse and insults is a major crisis in inter-imperialist relations. This is especially between the US and Europe but also between the capitalist powers of Europe reminiscent of the pre- 1914 and inter-war years. The re-emergence of such conflicts has followed the collapse of the former Stalinist regimes in the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe.

The existence of these regimes acted as "a glue" which cemented over the different interests of the capitalist and imperialist powers and bound them together in opposition to the Stalinist regimes. The removal of this glue has now given rise to an open conflict of interests between the major capitalist powers of the US, Britain and Europe.

The conflict became extremely bitter as the US and its allies supported the invoking of clause 4 of the NATO treaty which provides for military support to be given to a NATO member which is threatened. An unprecedented split and paralysis has opened up in NATO.

Turkey it is argued is threatened because it is on ‘the front line’ of a war on Iraq. Belgium, France and Germany blocked this on the basis that this would mean acceptance of the US war plans. The Secretary General of NATO gave an ultimatum to these countries to decide on the question.

They in effect called his bluff. Without consulting the US, France and Germany, then crucially with the support of Russia, have now presented their own alternative to a US-led military assault on Iraq. This alternative plan included the deployment of thousands of UN inspectors, a non-US-led UN ‘blue helmet’ occupation force backed up by US forces based in surrounding countries.

This proposal, although presented as an alternative to war, in effect amounted to a military occupation of Iraq but without a war to achieve it – a ‘soft war’! If carried out this plan would also lead to further upheavals and deeper conflicts in Iraq and the Arab world. However, it has been dismissed by US imperialism as ‘irrelevant’ which it seems is now determined to proceed with its military offensive.

Philip Stephens commented in the Financial Times: "There is still too little appreciation of the scale of the coming geopolitical earthquake. American occupation of Iraq – and let us not delude ourselves, this will be a long term commitment – will do more than redraw the region’s strategic map. It will mark the moment when the US takes upon itself a role that it has disavowed since the annexation of the Philippines more than a century ago – the role of the imperial power. For the past 50 years America has ruled a virtual empire" (FT 7/2/03).

Doomed to failure
In the medium and long term, they are doomed to failure. In the Middle East, where the Palestinians should already be cowed and intimidated according to the schema of the Bush strategists, the limits of US power have been glimpsed. This will be further underlined in the tumultuous events in the future.

In the short term, however, given the overwhelming military superiority of US imperialism, the US is likely to prevail in any war. How is it possible, given the massive opposition to war, unprecedented in its scale and depth to anything we have seen before, that the US ruling class can proceed with war?

In a sense, as the political journalist John Pilger has commented, the proponents of war, particularly Bush and Blair, are ‘isolated’, Blair in his own backyard and Bush from a world point of view. Thomas L Friedman, the American columnist, and an erratic commentator recently on the prospects of war, has given a stark warning to the Bush regime one day after Powell’s speech.

He writes:

"In talking with Bush administration officials of late I am struck by an incredible contrast. It is the contrast between the breathtaking audacity of what they intend to do in Iraq – an audacity that, I must say, has an appeal to me – and the incredibly narrow basis of support that exists in America today for this audacious project."

He professes that he is not worried about the reaction of the Arabs and Turks, of the volatile ‘Arab street’, or even of opinion in Iraq. What worries him is the mood of the US population on the issue of war:

"I have had a chance to travel all across the United States since September, and I can say without hesitation there was not a single audience I spoke to where I felt there was a majority in favour of war… I don’t care what the polls say, this is the real mood."

This conflict has revealed an enormous gulf in the opinion between the governments and the ‘governed’. The opposition is massive and overwhelming. In Britain Blair is isolated from the mass of opinion. According to the latest poll by the BBC only 9% support a war without UN support. Even with UN support 45% still oppose a conflict.

In Aznar’s Spain 91% oppose a war without UN support. Even with UN support 65% are opposed to a war. In Italy 79% are opposed to war. Throughout eastern Europe it is the same story with only 38% supporting a war in Romania, 28% in Bulgaria and 20% in Estonia. In Russia it is a mere 23%!. Never has such opposition to a war been expressed by the mass of the population at the beginning of a military conflict.

In Australia the anti-war mood has not only resulted in mass protests. In an example to be followed in other countries, nine trade unions in Western Australia, in Fremantle Harbour, have declared a work ban and five unions in Victoria have announced a lunchtime strike the day following the outbreak of war.

In the US it is true that after Bush’s State of the Union speech, support for a war began to increase in the US, as it probably will after Powell’s speech. According to the latest poll 57% now support a conflict if it is undertaken with the support of some US allies. However, 40% still would oppose it. If the US decides to proceed unilaterally it is likely that initially support will increase and will grow in the event of a relatively quick victory by US imperialism.

US imperialism
The CWI stands implacably opposed to US imperialism and the Bush regime. At the same time it is essential to build solidarity and support for those in the USA fighting against the war, especially the youth and workers who are struggling against the Bush regime and big business interests. As the experience of Vietnam demonstrated, it is a revolt by the US working class and young people that will challenge the power of US imperialism and the Bush adimistration.

In Britain, Blair is not guaranteed to garner political credit from a military victory. The fate of Blair is likely to be determined by this conflict. It will partly depend upon the character of any victory, the degree of suffering of the Iraqis, etc. The war has already provoked bitter mass opposition to Blair who could be toppled as a consequence of his pro-war policy. There is now mass opposition to Blair’s war policy.

One worker on a British TV panel addressed Blair in a debate as the Right Honourable Member (Member of Parliament) for Texas North! The determined opposition to Blair reflected on this programme was then followed by the ‘acute international embarrassment’ of the British government following the revelation that its latest dossier on Iraq of "intelligence material" included material copied from thesis prepared by academic and students – some of them several years old. The document was then cobbled together – a cut and paste job – not by Middle East ‘experts’ but by Alastair Campbell, the Government’s chief splin doctor. This same document was used by Powell in his speech to the UN Security Council.

The mass opposition to the war in these countries has been decisive in pushing Chirac and Schröder to oppose US policy. The disastrous election results for the SPD in recent elections in Lower Saxony and Hessen (in which the SPD got its lowest level of support ever) reflect the mass opposition which exists to the neo-liberal policies of the German government despite Schröder’s opposition to the war. This underlines that an anti-war policy is not enough and it must also be linked to a socialist alternative to capitalism. The attacks of the Bush administration on Schröder and his anti-war stance has probably strengthened his position domestically following the election defeats in Lower Saxony and Hessen.

It is possible that Chirac, despite mass opposition to the war in France will capitulate at the Security Council. However, if he does this, the anti-war mood could be galvanised into mass action in France.

Can war be stopped?
The question has to be answered by socialists and Marxists who have pointed towards the unprecedented pressure which is being exerted on Blair and Bush to desist from war: why then are they able to proceed in the teeth of this opposition – that could reach or exceed ten million people on worldwide demonstrations on 15 February – along the bloody path of mayhem and destruction in Iraq?

This demonstrates that when vital strategic interests of the ruling class are at stake, or a faction of the ruling class perceives that this is the case, then despite any unpopularity they will go to war. In this situation, mass demonstrations alone, overwhelming opposition to a war, are not sufficient in and of themselves to stay the hand of capitalism. Such mass movements can act as a check on the ruling class, to delay and complicate its war plans.

For example, John Howard has become the first Australian prime minister in a century to lose the support of the Senate when it passed a motion of no confidence in his pro-US policy on Iraq. But only if these movements are allied to clear mass action, a general strike and the overthrow of the government and of the system that it represents, can we guarantee that war can be prevented.

Bush and Blair undoubtedly calculate that with a quick victory over Saddam, as with the Gulf war, Kosova and Afghanistan, the opposition will quickly subside and they will be able to bask in the glory. However, to paraphrase the 19th century British prime minister and general, the Duke of Wellington, a victory sometimes brings with it as many if not more problems than a defeat. Friedman comments that the Bush administration is

"gearing up for the rebuilding of Iraq, along the lines of the rebuilding of Germany and Japan after World War Two, and Americans are geared up, at best, for the quick and dirty invasion of Grenada."

He then goes on to demand that it is

"time the president levelled with the country – not just about the dangers posed by Saddam, but about the long-term costs involved in ousting him and rebuilding Iraq. This is not going to be Grenada."

He warns that it will "take years" to achieve the aims of Bush and the circle of so-called ‘democratic’ imperialists in Iraq. The purpose is not just to overthrow Saddam but to reconstitute Iraq as a ‘democracy’.

On the basis of rotted capitalism and landlordism throughout the Middle East, this schema is just that, a pipe dream. On the contrary, the world crisis of capitalism – exemplified in particular by the deepening recession in the US with the loss of two million jobs since 2001 and one million completely dropping out of the labour force – means that US imperialism will not be able to economically underwrite, even if it controls Iraqi oil, its grand vision for the region. Its occupation of Iraq, because it will be more long term than its previous short, police-type interventions, will pull it into the quagmire which Iraq has always historically meant for invading armies.

Afghanistan is a warning to US imperialism of what lies in store for it in Iraq. All the promises that al-Qa’ida and the Taliban were decisively beaten, that an endless flow of billions of dollars would stream into Afghanistan to transform the economic, social and political landscape, and that US and British forces were there ‘for the duration’ have turned to ashes.

Afghanistan
A veil of silence, particularly as far as the US population is concerned, has been drawn over the present situation in Afghanistan. No mention was made by Powell at the UN of the catastrophic situation left in the wake of the US and British invasion, which was foreshadowed by the Marxists at the time. Peace remains an illusion as a process of steady erosion of the forces of US imperialism is under way.

Nightly attacks on US and other troops take place, there is anarchy in the cities outside Kabul and warlordism and drug trafficking are as entrenched as ever. Al-Qa’ida has a radio station operating in Afghanistan with an estimated 25% of all weapons brought into Afghanistan after an alleged ‘successful’ war against al-Qa’ida and the Taliban.

US forces have retreated from positions on the Afghan/Pakistan border. For instance, in December, US troops abandoned a military outpost at Lwara after nightly rocket attacks. The Afghan allies of the US were driven out days later by al-Qa’ida fighters who took over this former US compound and burned it to the ground. Once more, al-Qa’ida and the Taliban have set up training camps, with battles between the US and Taliban forces in and around Kandahar. A US citizen has been killed in Khost and 15 civilians were blown up by a landmine outside Kandahar.

The ugly reality of Afghanistan is not, however, allowed to blur the rosy future sketched out for Iraq in its post-Saddam phase. In reality, the US could be drawn into an economic, national and ethnic abyss. The Kurds will utilise any war to either move towards their own separate state or at the least demand autonomy within a federal Iraq.

Such is the hatred of the Ba’ath party, the foundation of the Saddam regime, that the Iraqi masses could take revenge on the most hated figures, with US forces forced to come to their defence to prevent a bloodbath. The Shias could decide to settle accounts with the Sunnis with civil war looming as a real prospect and the US attempting to hold the ‘ring’. Moreover, unlike 1992, the US will not be able to take the begging bowl to Japan, Germany or Saudi Arabia to pay for its occupation and the ‘economic flourishing’ of Iraq.

Legacy
The legacy of an attack on Iraq will be a colossal spiralling of threats from Islamic terrorists bent on revenge against the war which appears to them to be ‘against Islam’. One of the factors in the long-term plans of the Bush junta’s desire to occupy Iraq is to construct a ‘safety net’ against the doomsday scenario of Saudi Arabia falling into the hands of bin Laden-type sympathisers.

Islamic terrorism is one thing; a state which pursues such a policy is an absolute nightmare for the peoples of the world, not least in the Middle East. The ‘Islamic experts’ who surround Bush perceive that control of Iraq’s oil would give them an ace card in confronting and ‘blackmailing’ a hostile Saudi Arabian regime and could ultimately allow it to break the power of Opec in determining oil prices. This, in turn, by driving down the price of oil, could be the fillip, they believe, that could provide an economic springboard for the development of world capitalism.

They will be proved wrong. Their measures will enormously compound the problems of the Middle East and of the world. An era of war, the first stages of which will be the Iraqi war, accompanied by a worsening and stagnating world capitalist economy, could be the main features of this period. Unemployment worldwide has reached 180 million, 20 million more than two years ago.

One of the most disturbed periods in history could ensue. It will not quieten the movement of the working class, the youth and the poor. Alongside of devastating war in Iraq we witness the hundreds of thousands who demonstrated in Porto Alegre in Brazil and the very significant victory, temporary though it might be, in the left forces’ defeat of the forces of counter-revolution which sought to overthrow the Chávez government in Venezuela.


**********************

I'd also like to point out that Guiless has, on several occasions, thrown in side-issues which, when they have been dismantled, he has completely ignored. The legacy of the US’ military involvement in foreign policy making is a prime example.
 

Guileless

Temp Banned for Remedial Purposes
I don't have time to read anything that long that you did not write. I searched for "oil" in the body and found more of the same conclusory statements were already making. I guess his argument is this--"They expect that this re-colonisation of Iraq, to give it its right name, will enormously enhance the US ‘empire’ and force the peoples of the world, particularly in the neo-colonial world, to recognise their ‘impotence’ in the face of such awesome power." The author offers no direct evidence to support this contention, does he? What is it? Why do you believe that? It almost seems like he's psychoanalyzing Bush. That is not persuasive either.

For the sixth time, please make a cogent, cohesive argument explaining the war for oil theory. Specifically, explain how much revenue the US is realizing from its control of the oil fields, and contrast that with the outlays for the war.

As for any side issues you still want to discuss, as I said in my earlier post just identify a specific one and I'll be happy to discuss it with you. (if you can pull yourself together after crying about poor people to access the internet on your computer in what is probably a comfortable flat in a free market economy that guarantees your freedom of speech.)

And do you understand that the $2 gas comment was tongue-in-cheek irony? Gas prices are much higher in the US since the war, not lower as the war for oil theory led me to believe.
 

Prine

Banned
I guess these freedom fighters/terrotists also think MGS3 is GOTY

I mean, its like they were inspired by it
 

FightyF

Banned
Guileless said:
You are wrong. The UN Resolution authorizing military action against Iraq was only applied to ending the Iraqi occupation of Kuwait. Sending ground troops far into Iraq after the Iraqi army had abandoned Kuwiat would have been outside the jurisdiction conferred by the UN, and thus--by your own definition--a violation of international law. In addition, many of the partners of the coaltion joined on the condition that military action be limited only to ejecting the Iraqi Army from Kuwait. That said, encouraging the Shiite rebellion and failing to support it was a grevious error

by the American government. But as I asked earlier (and you ignored), does this mean that the US should never try to help them again, because it would be hypocritical? I don't understand that view. I would argue that the US had a greater moral obligation to help the Shiites after this mistake.

The question was ridiculous because you don't even know the actors involved, and that it's an issue that is totally unrelated to my points.

What you are asking me is if the US should help people like Al-Sadr, right? I mean, we are talking about the same people who fought Saddam, the "radical and militant" Shias that were killed back in '91, that are now considered innocent political opponents.

I was never talking about who to help. I was talking about how the government viewed certain people and USED their deaths as a reason to invade, when themselves are partly responsible for their deaths in their first place.

Now if you ask me if the US should help Al Sadr, I say just get out of his way. I don't know why they started this whole ruckus by not allowing him to have his own paper and to run in the election, because by doing so the Bush Administration has proved to by no better than Saddam's Administration. And now we see the fruits of the imposed censorship...dead Americans and Iraqis that didn't have to die if we allowed democracy and freedom to run its course.

Oh and about the first point about sending ground troops, again, why are you stepping around my points? The US could have at least sent air support (because we know they were flying and bombing with no limitations), or at least cause a ruckus in the UN. Neither occurred. We heard news that for days, people were getting killed by Saddam, but we didn't do anything about it, and as you say, it was a big mistake.

So it has nothing to do with hands being tied, it has to do with a mistake being made (as you admitted).

How did the US benefit from sanctions? US companies were prohibited from doing business with Saddam's regime.

It benefitted because there was more production. This is why throughout the years the US and Britain asked to remove the cap for oil production. The oil revenues when through the UN...US companies were never doing business directly. That's not to say that they weren't in Iraq making money. Secondly there is evidence that US companies did buy vouchers from Saddam that sold oil for cheaper. But these aren't related to my point. The West for the most part, wanted to see more production coming out of the Middle East and Iraq.

The sanctions did disproportionately hurt the Iraqi people, which was another good reason for regime change. If you didn't want to sanction or remove Saddam, what did you want to do with him? Wait for him to invade a third country? That's not realisitc. War was the least bad option, in my opinion.

What would you have done, if you were president of the US? Please answer in detail.

I would have removed him without invading.

Simple.

Unrealistic you say? Well we did get a commitment from him for elections that would have occurred last year, ne pas? Elections that would have had an international role with moderators from the UN. The worldwide reaction to Ukraine would have been nothing to any problems with the elections in Iraq.

How about the 6 point plan that Saddam accepted? The plan to ensure that the government would improve it's human rights record.

We had Saddam on his heels, the eyes of the World on his hands, and our guns pointed to his head. Any reasonable request we made, he abided to. This was never the case in the past.

If I were President, I wouldn't have thrown weapons inspectors out...I would have let them do my job. I would have ignored the Pentagon's pressure to start an invasion immedeately. I would have waited until evidence mounted and then have gotten a coalition the size of the last one (for the Gulf War), and a complete plan that differed from the previous war.

As you should know, the Gulf War was what jumpstarted Iraqi civilian suffering, as it knocked out the great majority of power, and destroyed water cleaning facilities which allowed sewage to get into drinking water, untreated. We could have learned from the last war, but this war was similar in a lot of aspects. Unrelated bridges destroyed, bombing in civilian areas, etc.

How did I demonstrate that? I understand the two principal groups to be former Baathists who want to regain power, and fundamental Islamists who want a Taliban-style theocracy to emerge from a failed state. What are the groups, and why am I wrong?

The groups consist of:
1) Loyal Baathists
2) Shi'ite forces that want their own government
3) International Muslim forces that want the US out

The fact that you use the term "Islamists" which is just a catchphrase that really doesn't describe a particular group, shows that you have much to learn about the situation. I don't know whether you are describing the Shi'ite elements or the International Sunni Muslims...both groups having different goals.

No I don't see. How do I not understand the people and the history of Iraq? Cite specific examples of where I'm wrong, or please apologize for calling me a fool for no reason.

Well, I said "look like a fool"...and the reasoning for that statement can be found in my last sentence. You constantly give me the impression that you don't know who exactly the US is fighting.

Edit:

You think I've never made a clear point in all of our disagreements? That's ridiculous. In this post alone there are several clear points, and I even bolded some questions to prompt you to respond to these clear points (though I'm sure you will ignore them as always). When did you disprove anything I said by a mere google search? Cite specific examples please.

I don't have the time to go back into your older posts to find stuff...but I did a quickie anyways...I mean, here's a braindead comment:

And I'm getting confused about something here. Osama says we're evil for supporting the corrupt Arab governments, we were evil for sanctioning and isolating the worst of them, and we were also evil for removing that same regime. So what are we supposed to do? Doesn't that cover all of the options?

The governments supported were Osama's enemies...it's clear to anyone following this war on terror that he doesn't like any of the regimes. It's also clear that he doesn't like the sanctions, not because it hurts the leaders (which it didn't), because it hurt the people. Your comment didn't take into account these generally well known facts.

You said in another thread:

There are US military chaplains for all of the major religions and denominations, including Islam.

Actually that chaplain was charged with many charges, including treason, and all of these charges were dropped and he was dishonourably discharged. Mr. Yee I believe, or was it Mr. Lee... :p Anyways, again, a simple google search would have gotten you that.

As if people voluntarily commit suicide and mass murder because they simply have differences of opinion on foreign policy. Militant Islamic terrorism is a product of the pathologies and failures of the societies from which it originates.

This one doesn't need a google search...just common sense. You claim that terrorism spawns from failures from societies...yet everything Osama mentions as "justification" shows no failure on the part of citizens from those regions. Obviously, what fuels terrorism is not a failure of society, but rather our military and economic actions that have a negative impact on innocent people. Your first statement is shocking, because you totally ignore the main and underlying point in this "war on terror". They view it as a "war OF terror"..."tit for tat", "an eye for an eye". These concepts exist even in Christianity, and in the case of Islam, has been exploited on the part of Al Qaeda.

It seems that you do not understand terrorism, terrorism on the part of Muslims, and basic history of the conflict with Al Qaeda. Which is why I'm telling you, politely, to educate yourself first, and then participate in these threads.

I work 40 hours a week at one job, and I'm working on an HL2 MOD right now, I can't be expected to reply immedeatly, so please accept my apology for not replying in a timely manner.
 

Guileless

Temp Banned for Remedial Purposes
I have read every word of your post Fight For Freeform and responded in good faith. Please do so in kind.

So (the brutal crackdown on the Shiite uprising after the Gulf War) has nothing to do with hands being tied, it has to do with a mistake being made (as you admitted).

You're still missing my point--the mistake was that the American decisionmakers believed that their hand were tied and so did nothing. Had US troops gone into Iraq after Iraq's surrender there would have been remonstrations at the UN and, if it had existed, threads at GAF OT about the US breaking international law to steal oil. Reports about the scale of the crackdown would be minimized or ignored. Members of the coalition would have loudly withdrawn, and Saddam would make great propoganda out of all of it to his advantage.

Those are specific reasons cited by Brent Scowcroft and George Bush in their memoirs about why they did nothing--they thought their hands were tied by the coalition, the narrow mandate of the UN resolution authorizing force, and the consequences of violating that mandate. It doesn't matter whether I admit it was a mistake on GAF--the people who made the decisions have acknowledged it as such.

And consider if the US had taken short-term measures to stop the slaughter through air power, as you suggested. Saddam would still be in power, and eventually he would have meted out his punishment. Without marching to Baghdad and removing him--which you specifically rule out as an option--anything the US did would have only been a short term solution and the US government would still be, in your words, 'partly responsible' for the deaths of the Shiites.

I was never talking about who to help. I was talking about how the government viewed certain people and USED their deaths as a reason to invade, when themselves are partly responsible for their deaths in their first place.

Again, what's your point in bringing this up? I know what you are "talking about", but what is the reason you are talking about it? Should the US should never again do anything to help Iraqi Shiites in southern Iraq because it would be hypocritical? Will you ignore this question a third time?

(The United States) benefitted (from sanctions) because there was more production

There was more Iraqi oil production because of sanctions? Do you understand that sanctions prohibited the sale of Iraqi oil on the open market? How did this make for more oil production? And how did the US benefit from it? That statement is absurd.

I would have removed him without invading.

This was tried for 12 years. You can advocate any method you want to on an internet message board, but they did not work in practice. Are you suggesting that Saddam would have abdicated after 40 years of absolute power enforced by arguably the world's most brutal police state if he lost an election? What are the chances of this happening, in percentage terms?

We had Saddam on his heels, the eyes of the World on his hands, and our guns pointed to his head. Any reasonable request we made, he abided to. This was never the case in the past.

Saddam started abiding to requests only when there was a formidable invasion force on his doorstep. That force could not stay there in perpetuity to keep him in line. In addition, how was Saddam on his heels when the sanctions regime was being steadily undermined? How were the "eyes of the world on his hands" in a police state with no free press? Your comments are ridiculous without acknowleding and reconciling those facts.

The fact that you use the term "Islamists" which is just a catchphrase that really doesn't describe a particular group, shows that you have much to learn about the situation. I don't know whether you are describing the Shi'ite elements or the International Sunni Muslims...both groups having different goals.

Using the term "Islamist" means I don't understand the situation? Why is that exactly? Is every reporter and commentator who uses this term also a fool? A google search for "Islamist" and "Iraq" turned up 326,000 hits, including an article from The Guardian, a newspaper you would really like. At least I have company with plenty of other fools.

You constantly give me the impression that you don't know who exactly the US is fighting.

Oooh, you bolded your conclusory statement. I didn't ask you to repeat yourself in bold letters, I asked you for reasons why you think I'm a fool. Apparently the best you can do is to cite the use of the term "Islamist" without further elaboration. Please elaborate further.

The governments supported were Osama's enemies...it's clear to anyone following this war on terror that he doesn't like any of the regimes. It's also clear that he doesn't like the sanctions, not because it hurts the leaders (which it didn't), because it hurt the people. Your comment didn't take into account these generally well known facts.

This is incomprehensible as a counterpoint to my argument, which you so artfully termed "braindead." My comment was about the irrationality of Osama's critique of American foreign policy, which the quoted paragraph completely ignores. Of course it's clear Osama doesn't like the Arab regimes--that's why I said in my braindead argument that "he doesn't like our support of corrupt Arab regimes." My argument may well be braindead, but the paragraph quoted above does absolulely nothing to prove that.

Actually that chaplain was charged with many charges, including treason, and all of these charges were dropped and he was dishonourably discharged. Mr. Yee I believe, or was it Mr. Lee... :p Anyways, again, a simple google search would have gotten you that.

What you quoted is me saying that the US military has chaplains for a wide variety of faiths. What does your statement about Yee have to do with what you quoted me as saying? Did you put the wrong text in quotes? This makes no sense at all. If you only have time to respond to a few of my points, please make this one of them.

This (post about the roots of terrorism) doesn't need a google search...just common sense.

You saved the best for last. Are you telling me that you can "disprove" theories about the roots of terrorism with a few hastily conceived sentences on an internet message board? The experts around the world who spend years writing and researching books on this subject would be glad to know that. We can also end the global debate, since you have "disproved" one prominent theory. And you didn't even need a google search. Congratuations.

Obviously, what fuels terrorism is not a failure of society, but rather our military and economic actions that have a negative impact on innocent people.

How is that obvious? If it's so "obvious," surely you won't mind elaborating further since it shouldn't be much of a strain on you. Why aren't Africans and South Americans crashing planes into builidings? Where are the Chinese suicide bombers? Has there been no negative impact on them from American military and economic action? What region in the world is the only one without a single elected government? Where do anti-Western terrorists overwhelmingly come from?

If it's all so obvious, I'm sure you'll explain it to us right? In great detail, with a clear argument supported by facts? Right?
 

FightyF

Banned
I have read every word of your post Fight For Freeform and responded in good faith. Please do so in kind.

What parts haven't I read?

You're still missing my point--the mistake was that the American decisionmakers believed that their hand were tied and so did nothing. Had US troops gone into Iraq after Iraq's surrender there would have been remonstrations at the UN and, if it had existed, threads at GAF OT about the US breaking international law to steal oil. Reports about the scale of the crackdown would be minimized or ignored. Members of the coalition would have loudly withdrawn, and Saddam would make great propoganda out of all of it to his advantage.

Again, your missing the facts. The US didn't have to break international law to support the rebels. Secondly, the US already had special forces in Iraq to begin with, they could have at least done something. Thirdly, the US simply didn't see these people as allies and didn't care about the outcome.

Which ties into the point I'm making and the one you are missing...one administration considered these people terrorists, the other administration (led by the son of the first) considered them as political rivals to Saddam that were massacred...and it's quite obvious that these deaths which the US simply sat and watched and did nothing weren't a concern a decade ago, but are a concern now when the evidence for WMDs were amounting to nothing.

Those are specific reasons cited by Brent Scowcroft and George Bush in their memoirs about why they did nothing--they thought their hands were tied by the coalition, the narrow mandate of the UN resolution authorizing force, and the consequences of violating that mandate. It doesn't matter whether I admit it was a mistake on GAF--the people who made the decisions have acknowledged it as such.

"Thought"...did they mention that they also thought that helping out these religious radicals was something they didn't want to do either?

That's my point and this is why I brought it up in the first place.

Guileless...don't you ever bother stopping to think sometimes? Do you really think Bush thought his hands were tied? Bush Jr. has broken many rules to invade Iraq, and his dad was concerned over breaking a rule (that was already broken by special forces) that they "thought" existed?

And consider if the US had taken short-term measures to stop the slaughter through air power, as you suggested. Saddam would still be in power, and eventually he would have meted out his punishment. Without marching to Baghdad and removing him--which you specifically rule out as an option--anything the US did would have only been a short term solution and the US government would still be, in your words, 'partly responsible' for the deaths of the Shiites.

A short term solution worked out until the security council agrees on overthrowing the regime.

Again, what's your point in bringing this up? I know what you are "talking about", but what is the reason you are talking about it? Should the US should never again do anything to help Iraqi Shiites in southern Iraq because it would be hypocritical? Will you ignore this question a third time?

Didn't I already answer it?

There was more Iraqi oil production because of sanctions? Do you understand that sanctions prohibited the sale of Iraqi oil on the open market? How did this make for more oil production? And how did the US benefit from it? That statement is absurd.

Guileless, let's get serious here. No clowning around, please. Go read up on the sanctions yourself, I can't be expected to teach you everything. There are PLENTY of resources on the 'net.

This was tried for 12 years. You can advocate any method you want to on an internet message board, but they did not work in practice. Are you suggesting that Saddam would have abdicated after 40 years of absolute power enforced by arguably the world's most brutal police state if he lost an election? What are the chances of this happening, in percentage terms?

No, it wasn't tried for 12 years. Look into it...there was very little communication between the US and Iraq during the 12 years...and almost all of it focused on weapons inspections.

In fact, there was more bombing in the 12 years than meetings. There was absolutely NO PLAN to remove Saddam when Bush Sr. was in power, and no plans to remove Saddam when Clinton was in power. There was little pressure on Saddam to hold open and free elections.

Saddam started abiding to requests only when there was a formidable invasion force on his doorstep. That force could not stay there in perpetuity to keep him in line.

They could stay there...just as forces are still staying in Bosnia, for example. Secondly, he complied far before a sizable force was outside Iraq's borders...so that throws your first comment out the window...

In addition, how was Saddam on his heels when the sanctions regime was being steadily undermined? How were the "eyes of the world on his hands" in a police state with no free press? Your comments are ridiculous without acknowleding and reconciling those facts.

The sanctions were being undermined with our knowledge...and as I said earlier American companies were involved...but this has nothing to do with my point. He was complying in the aspects we were concerned about.

Bush didn't invade Iraq because he was breaking a few sanction rules. He invaded Iraq because he said it was a threat to American security and that they had WMDs. But when you look at the facts, in those regards, Saddam was on his heels. Had we brought up issues such as the sanctions, it's obvious that he would have complied.

Using the term "Islamist" means I don't understand the situation? Why is that exactly? Is every reporter and commentator who uses this term also a fool? A google search for "Islamist" and "Iraq" turned up 326,000 hits, including an article from The Guardian, a newspaper you would really like. At least I have company with plenty of other fools.

No, not every reporter and commentator uses it. It was a term coined by an American think tank, that was avoided for the most part because it didn't describe anything. Whether you find it in the Guardian or any paper, doesn't give that word a clearer meaning. Why don't you pop in a racist term in google? I'm sure that will gather many results...and since it's so widely used, it must be a proper term, right?

You used the word to describe Iraqis...and it didn't give me any insight as to why they are fighting, or their cultural background...or perhaps religious background. It's a term that people like Daniel Pipes and other shown to be racist writers use...but it really has no definition.


Oooh, you bolded your conclusory statement. I didn't ask you to repeat yourself in bold letters, I asked you for reasons why you think I'm a fool. Apparently the best you can do is to cite the use of the term "Islamist" without further elaboration. Please elaborate further.

If you need further elaboration, let me know. I think the best exercise you can do is to write down the definition of that term. Or even try searching dictionary.com...or checking your own print dictionary. Don't you think it looks foolish to use a term that's not even in the dictionary? Yes...I won't disagree that it's used quite often...but it's a term that really has no meaning.

This is incomprehensible as a counterpoint to my argument, which you so artfully termed "braindead." My comment was about the irrationality of Osama's critique of American foreign policy, which the quoted paragraph completely ignores. Of course it's clear Osama doesn't like the Arab regimes--that's why I said in my braindead argument that "he doesn't like our support of corrupt Arab regimes." My argument may well be braindead, but the paragraph quoted above does absolulely nothing to prove that.

Read my statement more carefully. "It's also clear that he doesn't like the sanctions, not because it hurts the leaders (which it didn't), because it hurt the people. Your comment didn't take into account these generally well known facts." Secondly, where did Osama say that he didn't like the ouster of Saddam? You can point to quotes where he mentions the invasion, and again, that ties into his idea of protecting innocent people (apparently by killing innocent people).

What you quoted is me saying that the US military has chaplains for a wide variety of faiths. What does your statement about Yee have to do with what you quoted me as saying? Did you put the wrong text in quotes? This makes no sense at all. If you only have time to respond to a few of my points, please make this one of them.

You said something that was wrong. Factually incorrect. Untrue. How clear can I get?

You saved the best for last. Are you telling me that you can "disprove" theories about the roots of terrorism with a few hastily conceived sentences on an internet message board? The experts around the world who spend years writing and researching books on this subject would be glad to know that. We can also end the global debate, since you have "disproved" one prominent theory. And you didn't even need a google search. Congratuations.

These "experts"...don't include people who have an already formed opinion on the subject...do they?

How is that obvious? If it's so "obvious," surely you won't mind elaborating further since it shouldn't be much of a strain on you. Why aren't Africans and South Americans crashing planes into builidings? Where are the Chinese suicide bombers? Has there been no negative impact on them from American military and economic action? What region in the world is the only one without a single elected government? Where do anti-Western terrorists overwhelmingly come from?

Africans and South Americans have been involved in much bloodshed...to ignore that is appalling. They aren't crashing planes because their enemies don't really have building to plow them into, and secondly where will they get the planes from? In Africa, it's far easier to get an AK, and walk into a village shooting women and children...using planes would not make sense. Terrorism in Africa doesn't require explosives.

China is a far more controlled region, it would be extremely hard to pull off any attack against the Chinese government. I can't see a suicide bomber getting into a government building undetected.

There has been negative impact on these people. Trade with China supports their Communist government, and our lack of action during African genocides definately hurts them.

AFAIK there is no region of the World where there isn't a single elected government.

Anti-Western terrorists come from regions where Western powers have previously colonized them, or influence the politics of the region. Again, it's simple.

Why do they hate us? Well, the first thing you should do is look to see what you did to make them angry. This is why things are so...obvious.

I advise you against claiming that I have been infactual, because you are ignoring them (Saddam squashing terrorists) or are completly wrong (Mr. Yee...or was it Lee...).
 
I'd actually reply to this but I've done similar on another forum. Quite frankly if a person can't take the word of someone who is in constant contact with relatives who are STILL LIVING in Iraq and continues to go on his tirade about things he has never witnessed and doesn't KNOW anyone who has witnessed these things, then that person must be high on meth or a Liberal tool with the words "See no truth, speak no truth, hear no truth" tattooed on his forehead.

But hey, I'm just a new member here to GAF... and a 30 yr old who knows more than some. Firest0rm, Azih, my hat goes of to both of you. Speaking as a Christian, I hope both of your families prosper in the new Iraq and that Musharef(sp?) gets ahold of anyone bringing discord to Pakistan.
 

Guileless

Temp Banned for Remedial Purposes
The US didn't have to break international law to support the rebels.
This is the last time I'm going to say this. It would have been a violation of international law--violation of the sovereign boundaries of Iraq--for the US military to go hundreds of miles into southern Iraq to stop the Shiite crackdown. The UN resolution only authorized force to expel Iraq from Kuwait. Why can't you admit that? You are clearly wrong.

Thirdly, the US simply didn't see these people as allies and didn't care about the outcome.
This statement is absurd. Of course the US cared about the outcome, it wanted the Shiites to topple Saddam and create a decent government. That's why it encouraged them to rebel in the first place.

Do you really think Bush thought his hands were tied? Bush Jr. has broken many rules to invade Iraq, and his dad was concerned over breaking a rule (that was already broken by special forces) that they "thought" existed?
Yes, all of the decisionmakers have publicly stated that they did not intervene in the Shiite rebellion because it was not authorized by the UN, the coaltion would fall apart, and if successful the US would be solely responsible for nation-building in Iraq.

From Bush's memoirs: "Going in and occupying Iraq, thus unilaterally exceeding the United Nations' [1990] mandate, would have destroyed the precedent of international response to aggression that we hoped to establish." That's more authoritative than your rambling, semi-coherent internet message board theories about their motivation.

A short term solution worked out until the security council agrees on overthrowing the regime.
Again, an absurd statement. The UN resolution authorizing force was painstakingly drafted and negotiated to specficially not include pursuing the Iraqi military to Baghdad and overthrowing Saddam. There would never have been such a resolution, as the Soviet Union and all of the Arab states then on the council surely would have vetoed it.

Didn't I already answer it?
No, you ignored it a fourth time. That's why I keep asking it slick. Here again for the fifth time: Should the US should never again do anything to help Iraqi Shiites in southern Iraq because it would be hypocritical?

Guileless, let's get serious here. No clowning around, please. Go read up on the sanctions yourself, I can't be expected to teach you everything.
Good lord man, why are you telling me to read up on sanctions instead of asking a simple question? Oh wait, I know--you can't answer it, as what I quoted from your earlier post was absurd and borderline incoherent. Again: How was there more Iraqi oil after sanctions?

There was little pressure on Saddam to hold open and free elections
OK, let's assume you're correct. That still does not change the absurdity of your argument: that Saddam, a man who filled mass graves with his political opponents and held power for 40 years, would voluntarily leave office if he lost an election no matter how much "pressure" we put on him.

They could stay there...just as forces are still staying in Bosnia, for example. Secondly, he complied far before a sizable force was outside Iraq's borders...so that throws your first comment out the window...
Bosnia has a few peacekeepers. It would be prohibitively expensive and politically untenable to leave a credible invasion force in Qatar and Kuwait to menace Saddam. Do you understand the difference between a massive invasion force and a few hundred peacekeepers? Apparently not, which is yet more evidence of your poorly thought out posts on this thread.

He was complying in the aspects we were concerned about.
Good lord man, he forced the removal of the weapons inspectors! He was not complying with aspects we were concerned about, which George Bush has said about a million times since 2002. You are clearly wrong.

The term "islamist" is widely used by reporters and commentators. The definition, as I understand it, is someone who wants an overtly Islamic society where government, politics, and culture are strictly governed according to the Koran, as in Iran and formerly in Afghanistan.

Use of the term, alone, does not invalidate an argument. To invalidate an argument would require you to coherently make a counterargument, which you are obviously unable to do. Instead, you tell me that because I use a single word, I don't know what I'm talking about.

You said something that was wrong. Factually incorrect. Untrue. How clear can I get?
What did I say that was wrong? All I said was that there are chaplains for a wide variety of faiths. Is that wrong?

AFAIK there is no region of the World where there isn't a single elected government.
There is no elected government in the Arab world, which is what I said earlier. You are wrong.

Anti-Western terrorists come from regions where Western powers have previously colonized them, or influence the politics of the region. Again, it's simple.
China, South America, and sub-Saharan Africa were colonized by the West. There are no, or very few, anti-Western terrorists from those regions. Why is that, if colonization alone explains terrorism? That is what I asked earlier, but of course you ignored the question. That's why I'm asking it again.

I advise you against claiming that I have been infactual, because you are ignoring them (Saddam squashing terrorists) or are completly wrong (Mr. Yee...or was it Lee...).
You are "infactual" (which by the way, unlike Islamist, really isn't a word), as I detailed above.
 

FightyF

Banned
This is the last time I'm going to say this. It would have been a violation of international law--violation of the sovereign boundaries of Iraq--for the US military to go hundreds of miles into southern Iraq to stop the Shiite crackdown. The UN resolution only authorized force to expel Iraq from Kuwait. Why can't you admit that? You are clearly wrong.

I never claimed that they should have overthrown Saddam, or even go into Iraq with soldiers.

You are twisting my statements to avoid my points. Stop trying to walk in circles here.

Read the original point. The first Administration considered these people terrorists and didn't give a damn if they died. The latest Administration used it as some sort of justification for going to war, after Bush's lies about WMDs were clearly not holding up with scientists, researchers and the international community.

I went on to say that if the US did care, they would have supported them. There were MANY ways to support the rebels, and the US's hands were not tied. As I pointed out, the British and the Americans had control of the airspace, and after the war repeatedly bombed Iraq. They bombed palaces, anti-aircraft weaponry, and used DU bombs in the country side. It was one possible avenue to prevent the deaths of the rebels.

This statement is absurd. Of course the US cared about the outcome, it wanted the Shiites to topple Saddam and create a decent government. That's why it encouraged them to rebel in the first place.

*ROFLMAO*

The uprising wasn't coordinated with the US at all. It was a window of opportunity and the rebels took it.



Yes, all of the decisionmakers have publicly stated that they did not intervene in the Shiite rebellion because it was not authorized by the UN, the coaltion would fall apart, and if successful the US would be solely responsible for nation-building in Iraq.

From Bush's memoirs: "Going in and occupying Iraq, thus unilaterally exceeding the United Nations' [1990] mandate, would have destroyed the precedent of international response to aggression that we hoped to establish." That's more authoritative than your rambling, semi-coherent internet message board theories about their motivation.

Again, I never said they should have went in and occupied Iraq. I said they could have helped the rebels...and I've shown that despite any mandate, they did have enough power to do so. They just decided not to.

Again, an absurd statement. The UN resolution authorizing force was painstakingly drafted and negotiated to specficially not include pursuing the Iraqi military to Baghdad and overthrowing Saddam. There would never have been such a resolution, as the Soviet Union and all of the Arab states then on the council surely would have vetoed it.

Considering that the US went in because of the request of the Saudi government, and the fact that Kuwait hated Iraq with a passion, I highly doubt that all of them would have vetoed it. Secondly, you are talking about the original authorization...and as you know (well, considering your track record...you probably don't) this changed over the years to allow for Saddam's disarmament.

No, you ignored it a fourth time. That's why I keep asking it slick. Here again for the fifth time: Should the US should never again do anything to help Iraqi Shiites in southern Iraq because it would be hypocritical?

Obviously you didn't understand my answer, I'll spell it out for your benefit. No, they should not help the Shi'ites, because according the US, they are a threat. We all saw what happened with Al-Sadr, it came to bite them back in the ass. It's like saying that the Chechen rebels who invaded the Moscow theatre are now "political victims" to justify an invasion of Russia.

Good lord man, why are you telling me to read up on sanctions instead of asking a simple question? Oh wait, I know--you can't answer it, as what I quoted from your earlier post was absurd and borderline incoherent. Again: How was there more Iraqi oil after sanctions?

It occurred over time. As you've read (haha...yeah, right!) after the cap was increased, it was totally removed. Plus, and more importantly, it meant cheaper oil as Iraq couldn't set any price or slap any tarrif on it. The US bought more oil when it was cheaper, and it got cheaper due to the Oil for Food program.

Bosnia has a few peacekeepers. It would be prohibitively expensive and politically untenable to leave a credible invasion force in Qatar and Kuwait to menace Saddam. Do you understand the difference between a massive invasion force and a few hundred peacekeepers? Apparently not, which is yet more evidence of your poorly thought out posts on this thread.

I like how you don't comment on the second part of that paragraph, where you get owned :). S'okay. There are more than a few hundred peacekeepers BTW, it's a multinational force. Y'know, if the number you pulled out of your ass was actually right, you'd have a point. :)

Good lord man, he forced the removal of the weapons inspectors! He was not complying with aspects we were concerned about, which George Bush has said about a million times since 2002. You are clearly wrong.

Are you serious? Or are you starting to take this whole thing as a joke and plan to waste my time?

The weapon inspectors were removed by Bush, not Saddam. FACT.
No WMDs were found. FACT.
No trace of WMDs were found. FACT.
Saddam even destroyed QUESTIONABLE missiles (that would break distance restrictions if it DIDN'T CARRY a payload). FACT.
There was no evidence that Saddam had WMDs, weapons inspectors were sent to find evidence. FACT.

I'm shaking my head now...I'm talking to a dolt here...

The term "islamist" is widely used by reporters and commentators. The definition, as I understand it, is someone who wants an overtly Islamic society where government, politics, and culture are strictly governed according to the Koran, as in Iran and formerly in Afghanistan.

The defn as you understand it? How about the actual definition? Oh, and your definition would only apply to people like Al-Sadr who want a theocracy.

So you are totally ignoring the Al Qaeda element in Iraq! As I said, you don't understand who they are even fighting...why are you commenting on the situation?

Use of the term, alone, does not invalidate an argument. To invalidate an argument would require you to coherently make a counterargument, which you are obviously unable to do. Instead, you tell me that because I use a single word, I don't know what I'm talking about.

It was invalidated long ago. I first told you that you did not understand who the American soldiers were fighting. You're answer was one term, that doesn't have a concrete definition, and that doesn't describe what the American soldiers are facing. As I said (and you fail to understand because obviously you have some issues with comprehension), there are many enemies in Iraq. ONE GROUP INCLUDES THE VERY TOPIC OF DISCUSSION IN THIS THREAD, which you denied in the first place!

What did I say that was wrong? All I said was that there are chaplains for a wide variety of faiths. Is that wrong?

You said that...and you said there was a Muslim one. That is wrong.

There is no elected government in the Arab world, which is what I said earlier. You are wrong.

You asked me "which region" and I responded "no region". I am right, because in the Middle East, Israel has an elected government. Perhaps if you said "which part of the cultural/social World" it would make sense...sort of.

Because it has NOTHING to do with the topic at hand. Unless, you agree with my point that these areas were victims of colonization and left to power struggles which has led to dictorships and monarchies, and result in people disgruntled at these very monarchies and those who support them (ie. The US).

China, South America, and sub-Saharan Africa were colonized by the West. There are no, or very few, anti-Western terrorists from those regions. Why is that, if colonization alone explains terrorism? That is what I asked earlier, but of course you ignored the question. That's why I'm asking it again.

There are countries like Pakistan, Malaysia and other Muslim countries that were colonized as well. Again, few if none anti-Western terrorists from those regions.

I NEVER put it as simple as "colonization = terrorism". It has a large part to do with it, because it has a large part to do with power struggles that were a consequence of post-colonization, and it has resulted in monarchies and dictatorships. If a dictatorship arose in Malaysia, and the US supported it, Malaysians would hate the US just as much as their own government.

You claim that I've avoided the questions...but it's a case of you not reading my answers, because I'm just repeating myself here.

You are "infactual" (which by the way, unlike Islamist, really isn't a word), as I detailed above.

True, it's not a word, but then again, it's not the basis of an arguement on my part.
 

Che

Banned
Azih said:
The ad hominem attacks on firestrom's relatives in Iraq threw me.

confused me too. The sunnies aren't firestorms people. After all I made clear that the division between Sunnite and Shiite is pretty damn large, especially in Iraq where you know the majority Shiites were pretty much OPPRESSED by the minority Sunnites over the past few DECADES.

And this of course blew my mind because it is quite possible the stupidest thing I've ever heard



Edit: Because not only did you say Saddam CARED FOR HIS COUNTRY and ITS ECONOMY (which would have qualified as stupidest thing ever on its own), you also went on to declare him superior to a future government that DOESN'T EXIST YET. GRAHG

WTF??? You claim that Firestorm is supposed to hate his fellow country people more than the foreign invading power just because they have different regilious beliefs? Damn, you're a very confused person.

And the fact that Saddam was a lunatic doesn't mean that he didn't care for his country. You idiots have watched so much FOX that you think that he was a brainless butcher who only cared for himself. If he cared only for himself why risk his life and oppose the USA by refusing to obey and set USA's humiliating oil prices? Afterall USA was making him rich before 1990 when he decided that it was for his country's best interest to not follow USA instructions. All these things doesn't make him less of a bloodthirsty lunatic but please don't compare him with a couple of traitors a foreign oppressor is gonna allow to run for presidency.
 

Azih

Member
WTF??? You claim that Firestorm is supposed to hate his fellow country people more than the foreign invading power just because they have different regilious beliefs? Damn, you're a very confused person.
Alright I'm going to try fairly hard not to be absolutely insulted, seeing as I AM MUSLIM, SHIA, WAS BORN IN PAKISTAN AND GREW UP IN FREAKING SAUDI ARABIA. phew ok.

Dude, I gotta ask you, what do you know about the various sects of Islam?
 

Guileless

Temp Banned for Remedial Purposes
If anyone other is actually reading this (other than Locutus), what do you think? Who's the "braindead, dolt, fool that should educate himself" in this discussion?

I never claimed that they should have overthrown Saddam, or even go into Iraq with soldiers.
The only way to stop the Shiite crackdown would be with soldiers on the ground, and as I already told you that would be a short term solution only. If you want to criticize the US for not stopping the crackdown, then you are de facto arguing that the US military should have unilaterally invaded Iraq to remove Saddam from power, because that would have been the only way to stop Saddam's reprisal attacks. You obviously didn't know that when you started posting and now you won't admit it, but nevertheless you are wrong.

The uprising wasn't coordinated with the US at all. It was a window of opportunity and the rebels took it.
The Shiites were encouraged to rebel by US radio broadcasts. That's why the Shiites were so mad at the US; they felt betrayed and used after no help came (similar to the Cuban exiles in the Bay of Pigs invasion who were refused air cover). Again, you are wrong.

I've shown that despite any mandate, they did have enough power to do so. They just decided not to.
Of course the US military had the "power." But the political decisionmakers lacked the will because it would require exceeding the scope of the UN resolution and shattering the coalition. You are criticizing the US for not unilaterally breaking international law in 1991, and then for doing so in 2002. Your argument is logically inconsistent.

Considering that the US went in because of the request of the Saudi government, and the fact that Kuwait hated Iraq with a passion, I highly doubt that all of them would have vetoed it. Secondly, you are talking about the original authorization...and as you know (well, considering your track record...you probably don't) this changed over the years to allow for Saddam's disarmament.
Neither Saudi Arabia nor Kuwait was on the Security Council at the time of the first Iraq war. I don't remember which Arab countries were on it at the time, but I do know that they were adamant that the resolution only allow for the expulsion of Iraq from Kuwait. And you ignored the Soviet Union, which had a veto as a permanent member and would never in a million years have voted for Saddam's removal by the US military. The original authorization for force had absolutely nothing to do with later disarmament. For the fourth time, you are wrong.

No, they should not help the Shi'ites, because according the US, they are a threat
The women and children who got killed by Saddam's army in 1991 were a threat? Are the orphans created by that violent crackdown a threat? That's pretty cynical, isn't it? Are the people organizing political parties for the vote a threat? Is Sistani a threat, after he has publicly stated that he doesn't want an Iranian-style theocracy in Iraq? No, they're not threats, and again you are wrong.

The US bought more oil when it was cheaper, and it got cheaper due to the Oil for Food program.
Wow, this is the wrongest answer so far, and that's saying something. Nobody could legally buy Iraqi oil on the open market after sanctions were imposed. It was cheaper only for the countries that didn't enforce the rule--the US government enforced the rule as stringently as any country in the world. American oil companies buy oil based on demand--how much they buy has nothing to do with the price. They pass any raise in price along to consumers. You are really wrong on this one.

There are more than a few hundred peacekeepers BTW, it's a multinational force. Y'know, if the number you pulled out of your ass was actually right, you'd have a point.
Unless there are 80,000 peacekeepers who are equipped to invade a country the size of California in Bosnia, I have a very good point. And guess what? There aren't that many. And you are ignoring the political implications of keeping a large invasion force in countries where the populations don't want them. Your Bosnia comparison is ridiculous,and once again you are wrong.

The weapon inspectors were removed by Bush, not Saddam. FACT
You're getting "infactual" again. The UN weapon inspectors left Iraq during the Clinton administration after Saddam made their work impossible.

You said that...and you said there was a Muslim one. That is wrong
There are Muslim chaplains in the US military. You are wrong.
 

FightyF

Banned
The only way to stop the Shiite crackdown would be with soldiers on the ground, and as I already told you that would be a short term solution only. If you want to criticize the US for not stopping the crackdown, then you are de facto arguing that the US military should have unilaterally invaded Iraq to remove Saddam from power, because that would have been the only way to stop Saddam's reprisal attacks. You obviously didn't know that when you started posting and now you won't admit it, but nevertheless you are wrong.

You claim that I am wrong...when you don't even understand the point the I've reiterated over and over.

I'll say it for the 5th time...(or is it the 6th time?) what is wrong about the whole thing is the US's hypocracy.

I never talked about removing Saddam from power, nor about an invasion in '91, until YOU BROUGHT THESE IDEAS UP.

And now you take your own ideas, put them into my mouth and claim that I'm wrong? Pathetic.

My point was that the Shi'ites never got any support from the US. I am right. YOU claim that Saddam had to be toppled, that a full ground invasion had to occur, etc. These are your ideas...not mine. When I say support, I never alluded to any of these. I specifically pointed to air support as an example. But like the rest of the points made in this thread, you've ignored that.

Guileless, you are consistantly walking around the issue here...and all you are bringing up to the table are futile arguements.

When you say that you "are right" about the US needing to do a full scale invasion of Iraq to stop the killing of Shi'ite rebels...you are just making a guess and labelling it right. How can you be so sure that things like air support would not have tipped the scales?

And this goes back to my original point, saying for the 6th or 7th time now...the US did not support them at all. If you still want to dispute this...write it on a piece of paper, and then burn it. Don't waste anyone's time...please!

The Shiites were encouraged to rebel by US radio broadcasts. That's why the Shiites were so mad at the US; they felt betrayed and used after no help came (similar to the Cuban exiles in the Bay of Pigs invasion who were refused air cover). Again, you are wrong.

I'd like a source for this please. You could be right...this isn't the first time the US has done something like this :), but I know for a fact after talking to Iraqis that it was seen as an opportunity that wouldn't come again. It's fair if you take your own evidence against my anecdotal evidence, but I don't need convincing as far as my point goes, I know for a fact that these people, as a community, saw an opportunity.

Of course the US military had the "power." But the political decisionmakers lacked the will because it would require exceeding the scope of the UN resolution and shattering the coalition. You are criticizing the US for not unilaterally breaking international law in 1991, and then for doing so in 2002. Your argument is logically inconsistent.

Again, this goes back to my original point, I've never asked for a full scale invasion, this is your idea. I've said again and again I've never asked for an invasion, I don't understand why you don't understand this. How repetitive can I get?

I've already pointed out that they had the capability to fly over Iraq, bomb whatever columns of soldiers they wanted to, without any penalty. Air support is vital to US ground troops, the exact could have occurred to some extent with Shi'ite fighters.

Neither Saudi Arabia nor Kuwait was on the Security Council at the time of the first Iraq war. I don't remember which Arab countries were on it at the time, but I do know that they were adamant that the resolution only allow for the expulsion of Iraq from Kuwait. And you ignored the Soviet Union, which had a veto as a permanent member and would never in a million years have voted for Saddam's removal by the US military. The original authorization for force had absolutely nothing to do with later disarmament. For the fourth time, you are wrong.

I never said it did...sheesh! Read my posts! Damnit! I don't know where are you getting these ideas from!

The women and children who got killed by Saddam's army in 1991 were a threat? Are the orphans created by that violent crackdown a threat? That's pretty cynical, isn't it? Are the people organizing political parties for the vote a threat? Is Sistani a threat, after he has publicly stated that he doesn't want an Iranian-style theocracy in Iraq? No, they're not threats, and again you are wrong.

Cynical? You tell me. After all, this is not my idea. Currently the Theocracy in Iran is considered a threat. Any attack on that country will include dead women and children. As far as the orphans go...you tell me. How about the orphans of the dead Shi'ite rebels who long for a theocracy? The Bush administration obviously considers them a threat...remember how they started that whole scenario with Al-Sadr?

Sistani could be a threat, it really depends on what the administration wants. If Sistani wanted to determine where his oil goes to...I'm sure he'd be considered a threat. That's just speculation on my part. If you are asking ME, I'd answer no to all of these, but the past and present Administrations have answers that differ from mine.

Unless there are 80,000 peacekeepers who are equipped to invade a country the size of California in Bosnia, I have a very good point. And guess what? There aren't that many. And you are ignoring the political implications of keeping a large invasion force in countries where the populations don't want them. Your Bosnia comparison is ridiculous,and once again you are wrong.

Well, thanks for admitting to being wrong on the count. But again, this is another useless arguement. I think that a multinational force of 30,000 will be sufficient for diplomatic pressure, and you think more is needed.

There is no point discussing it, when it's clear that Saddam complied before a sizable force was even stationed outside of Iraq. And that was you original point, which I threw out the window 2 posts ago. You seem to be arguing for the sake of arguing...I consider it a big waste of time if that's the case.

Now this next part is a perfect example of how you seem to choose ignorance over dialogue.

I said: "The weapon inspectors were removed by Bush, not Saddam. FACT"

To which you reply:

You're getting "infactual" again. The UN weapon inspectors left Iraq during the Clinton administration after Saddam made their work impossible.

My statement was no incorrect. We know that they left Iraq during the Clinton years...but that wasn't grounds for the current invasion. This time, Saddam fully complied...and we had more than enough time and resources to look for WMDs.

Your comment is ridiculous, and is a perfect example of how you are not interested in dialogue.

There are Muslim chaplains in the US military. You are wrong.

I did some heavy research for this and I found that you are right, there is one chaplain that I know of... Maj. Abdul-Rasheed Muhammad. Even the offical US Army Chaplain site http://www.goarmy.com/chaplain doesn't have him listed but I see an article on him here: http://www.defendamerica.mil/articles/oct2004/a102504a.html (read it, you might learn something).
 
You don't understand a perspective by watching a PR campaign video.

Perhaps those are the true feelings of some Iraqi resistance, but if you think that's all there is to it you need to watch some heads being cut off, while the victims are alive - a process and visual representation of a life ebbing away - something which takes longer than you might think.

The beheading videos are PR campaign videos as well, just meant for a different target market.
 

Guileless

Temp Banned for Remedial Purposes
I never talked about removing Saddam from power, nor about an invasion in '91, until YOU BROUGHT THESE IDEAS UP... I've already pointed out that they had the capability to fly over Iraq, bomb whatever columns of soldiers they wanted to, without any penalty
I realize that. I brought it up because you haven't thought through the practical implications of what you advocate. I'll make this simple as I can. The only way for the US to effectively help the Shiites in 1991 would require methods and actions you have specifically disavowed.

--Further bombing of the Iraqi military while on its way to kill the Shiites would have violated the armistice and led to endless recriminations in the UN about the bloodthirsty US indiscriminately killing a humiliated and prostrate opponent on its home soil after it had sued for peace. Not to mention the fact that the US military had no idea that the massacre would happen until it actually did happen, which rules out a preemptive strike on Chemical Ali as he made his way to Basra.

--The killing happened in the streets. Aerial bombing alone would not do anything to stop it--that would have required a force on the ground, which would have violated the armistice and the UN resolution authorizing force. In other words, unilateral repudiation of the armistice and the original UN mandate under which the war was waged.

--As I have already said and you now apparently acknowledge at some level, this would have been a short-term solution that would not have guaranteed the long-term security of the Shiites from Saddam's depredations.

I'd like a source for this (US encouragment of the Shiite rebellion) please...I know for a fact that these people, as a community, saw an opportunity.
This is very common knowledge, and your ignorance of such a central and widely-known fact does not lend you much credibility in this discussion. Of course they saw it as an opportunity, that's why they started the uprising. Whether they saw it as an opporunity or not is irrelevant to whether the US encouraged it, which is incontrovertible fact.
____________________
From MSNBC: "In 1991, the American coalition invaded Iraq, encouraging a Shiite rebellion, and then abandoning it. Hashmia’s 18-year-old son, Mohammed Joumah, was swept up in the spirit of the protests, and when Iraqi forces savagely suppressed the uprising, Mohammed was among unknown thousands massacred in the streets under the direction of Major General Ali “Chemical” Majid. Saddam’s favorite cousin is better known for gassing the Kurds, but in Basra he’ll always be remembered as the Shiites’ worst butcher.
___________________

I never said (the original authorization for force had anything to do with later disarmament)...sheesh! Read my posts! Damnit! I don't know where are you getting these ideas from!
I'm responding to your post, which read: "it (the original authorization for force) changed over the years to allow for Saddam's disarmament." You specifically linked the ideas and grouped them in a single continuum--that the force authorization evolved into the attempts at disarmament. To me, that sounds like you think one had something do with the other. Instead of dealing with the point I made, you would rather say "I never said that" and just abandon it.

Well, thanks for admitting to being wrong on the count. Well, thanks for admitting to being wrong on the count. But again, this is another useless arguement. I think that a multinational force of 30,000 will be sufficient for diplomatic pressure, and you think more is needed.
What is the count, by the way? I don't know for certain, but I know that the peacekeepers in Bosnia have very strict rules of engagement and are generally a symbolic presence. The war is over there, and they aren't needed to do any heavy fighting. If that necessity arose they would probably be evacuated or just watch, as every other UN force has done when real fighting begins--e.g. Rwanda and Srebernica.

If you think that Saddam would feel in any real way contrained by a symbolic peacekeeping force on his border, you are making a heavy assumption that runs counter to all of his previous behavior. That's not a compelling argument.

There is no point discussing it, when it's clear that Saddam complied before a sizable force was even stationed outside of Iraq.
How is that clear? I don't think it's clear at all. Perhaps you can persuade me that Saddam complied with the inspection regimes despite the fact that he ejected the inspectors in 1999. You stating that "it's clear" and not elaborating is an absolutely worthless debating tactic in a persuasive discussion. How's it clear? Give me a 3 point bullet argument or something. Something very clear.

We know that they left Iraq during the Clinton years...but that wasn't grounds for the current invasion. This time, Saddam fully complied...Your comment is ridiculous
Yes, that was grounds for the invasion. Saddam did not fully comply with the inspections regime. Full compliance is full compliance, not taking half measures after years of diplomatic wrangling and done so only under the credible threat of force. Not even Hans Blix, who wanted more time for inspections, said that Saddam fully complied.

What is your definition of full compliance?

I did some heavy research for this and I found that you are right, there is one chaplain
It doesn't take heavy research, just watch a WW2 movie and see the Protestant, Catholic, and Jewish chaplains portrayed. Or read the Establishment Clause of the Constitution.

The reason I have kept replying to you at length was your galling and frankly rude comments that I should educate myself before posting with an intellectual giant such as yourself and that you could disprove what I wrote with mere google searches. Here, now, after 2 weeks of long posts you finally admit that the very thing you cited as an example of your ability to disprove my posts through google--the chaplain comment--you were wrong about in the first place. That is stunning.

Disagreeing with people on an open forum goes with the territory. Don't be condescending and resort to name-calling when someone disagrees with you. And if you do want to be condescending and tell people to educate themselves before deigning to talk to you, it helps to be intelligent enough to credibly make that threat. You are not.
 

FightyF

Banned
I realize that. I brought it up because you haven't thought through the practical implications of what you advocate. I'll make this simple as I can. The only way for the US to effectively help the Shiites in 1991 would require methods and actions you have specifically disavowed.

As I said, it's NOT the only effective way. There is absolutely no way anyone could say that with certainty. It's like me saying that "the only way to oust Saddam is through a petition".


--Further bombing of the Iraqi military while on its way to kill the Shiites would have violated the armistice and led to endless recriminations in the UN about the bloodthirsty US indiscriminately killing a humiliated and prostrate opponent on its home soil after it had sued for peace.

No. The UN, in case you forgot, represents a group of nations. You are pulling these assertions out of your ass.

You wonder why it seems like I'm talking down to you? *LOL*

Not to mention the fact that the US military had no idea that the massacre would happen until it actually did happen, which rules out a preemptive strike on Chemical Ali as he made his way to Basra.

*shakes head*
The massacre was in retaliation for a whole whackload of "Islamists" as you'd put it, armed and ready to attack Saddam. We knew that they were going to do it...in fact...YOU SAID THE US ENCOURAGED IT (which you've yet to actually PROVE). So you're telling me the US and the World wasn't expecting a backlash?

--The killing happened in the streets. Aerial bombing alone would not do anything to stop it--that would have required a force on the ground, which would have violated the armistice and the UN resolution authorizing force. In other words, unilateral repudiation of the armistice and the original UN mandate under which the war was waged.

The killing happened AFTER Saddam was being threatened by these forces. Backing up these forces wouldn't have resulted in allowing Saddam the time and luxury of stricking back.

--As I have already said and you now apparently acknowledge at some level, this would have been a short-term solution that would not have guaranteed the long-term security of the Shiites from Saddam's depredations.

It doesn't matter what the outcome was, the safety of the Shi'ites wasn't a concern for the US.

This is very common knowledge, and your ignorance of such a central and widely-known fact does not lend you much credibility in this discussion. Of course they saw it as an opportunity, that's why they started the uprising. Whether they saw it as an opporunity or not is irrelevant to whether the US encouraged it, which is incontrovertible fact.

If it's common knowledge...then why couldn't you come up with some clear evidence?


From MSNBC: "In 1991, the American coalition invaded Iraq, encouraging a Shiite rebellion, and then abandoning it. Hashmia’s 18-year-old son, Mohammed Joumah, was swept up in the spirit of the protests, and when Iraqi forces savagely suppressed the uprising, Mohammed was among unknown thousands massacred in the streets under the direction of Major General Ali “Chemical” Majid. Saddam’s favorite cousin is better known for gassing the Kurds, but in Basra he’ll always be remembered as the Shiites’ worst butcher.
___________________

It never said what you claimed...the US using the radio as a tool to encourage an uprising. Please find that and get back to me. If this paragraph had the word "encouraged" rather than "encouraging", this paragraph would be all the proof you need.

I'm responding to your post, which read: "it (the original authorization for force) changed over the years to allow for Saddam's disarmament." You specifically linked the ideas and grouped them in a single continuum--that the force authorization evolved into the attempts at disarmament. To me, that sounds like you think one had something do with the other. Instead of dealing with the point I made, you would rather say "I never said that" and just abandon it.

Perhaps I should have said that. You have to understand my frustration...but on the other hand I'll take some blame for not being entirely clear.

How is that clear? I don't think it's clear at all. Perhaps you can persuade me that Saddam complied with the inspection regimes despite the fact that he ejected the inspectors in 1999. You stating that "it's clear" and not elaborating is an absolutely worthless debating tactic in a persuasive discussion. How's it clear? Give me a 3 point bullet argument or something. Something very clear.

Ok.

-Complied with allowing UN inspectors to all sites.
-Complied with destroying all weapons that didn't break any rules, but did so as a sign of goodwill.

I say it's clear because these are commonly known facts. Anyone following this conflict knows these things.

Who got rid of the inspectors this time around? Saddam or Bush? Oh wait...asking this question wouldn't make things clear to you. I'm doing this to make you think...but my method of instruction doesn't seem to be working for you. :) And so the answer is Bush.

Yes, that was grounds for the invasion. Saddam did not fully comply with the inspections regime. Full compliance is full compliance, not taking half measures after years of diplomatic wrangling and done so only under the credible threat of force. Not even Hans Blix, who wanted more time for inspections, said that Saddam fully complied.

What is your definition of full compliance?

Doing what we ask of them. Hans may have said that, but did he say that it was reason enough for invasion? To say that we can start a humanitarian crisis, akin to a natural disaster (the Tsunami), just because we aren't willing to wait a few months to double check something is absolutely EVIL.

It doesn't take heavy research, just watch a WW2 movie and see the Protestant, Catholic, and Jewish chaplains portrayed. Or read the Establishment Clause of the Constitution.

If it doesn't take much research, give me the name of another Muslim Chaplain. Heck, the OFFICIAL MILITARY CHAPLAIN SITE doesn't list one. :rolleyestothemax:

The reason I have kept replying to you at length was your galling and frankly rude comments that I should educate myself before posting with an intellectual giant such as yourself and that you could disprove what I wrote with mere google searches.

You did notice that this thread basically consists of me educating you on various issues, didn't you?

Here, now, after 2 weeks of long posts you finally admit that the very thing you cited as an example of your ability to disprove my posts through google--the chaplain comment--you were wrong about in the first place. That is stunning.

Again, let's see you get me another name for a Muslim chaplain. Or tell me the total number of Muslim chaplains. If you don't respond to my post (because you only reply to the portions where you aren't shot down). This is only one issue (the chaplain) that has nothing to do with this thread or Iraq. It was just pointed out to show that you didn't know what you were talking about. The fact that I found out the truth doesn't prove that you know what you are talking about, after all, you didn't name ANYONE.

Disagreeing with people on an open forum goes with the territory. Don't be condescending and resort to name-calling when someone disagrees with you. And if you do want to be condescending and tell people to educate themselves before deigning to talk to you, it helps to be intelligent enough to credibly make that threat. You are not.

As I said, you've already learned a lot from me. Your whole idea of terrorism, the real threat to the US, the war in Iraq, are all twisted and perverted. I've shown that, and you didn't dispute that. Hence, you've learned something.
 

Guileless

Temp Banned for Remedial Purposes
As I said, it's NOT the only effective way. There is absolutely no way anyone could say that with certainty.
Nothing is certain. However, reasonably well-informed people would be much more likely to agree with my argument than yours. Again, you did not think through the practical implications of what you posted. Simply saying "they could have bombed them and saved everybody" is not a good argument.

You are pulling these assertions out of your ass.
So if the US, after signing a peace treaty with a humiliated Iraq, bombed an exposed convoy of Iraqi military vehicles and killed thousands of people on Iraqi soil, you don't think there would be a negative reaction? Who's talking out of his ass now?

We knew that they were going to do it...in fact...YOU SAID THE US ENCOURAGED IT (which you've yet to actually PROVE). So you're telling me the US and the World wasn't expecting a backlash?
The rebellion was encouraged by the United States but crushed without American intervention by Saddam Hussein.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/05/03/iraq/main552195.shtml

On Feb. 15, 1991, President George H.W. Bush called on the Iraqi military and people to overthrow Saddam Hussein.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A10874-2003Apr11?language=printer

The US was expecting Saddam to be removed in a coup after a crushing military defeat resulted in 2/3 of the country revolted from his rule--a reasonable assumption. The US underestimated his staying power and ruthlessness.

The killing happened AFTER Saddam was being threatened by these forces. Backing up these forces wouldn't have resulted in allowing Saddam the time and luxury of stricking back.
Saddam had all of the time and luxury he wanted. He still controlled the army in central Iraq; he could strike the south anytime he wanted to, unless he was removed from power by invading his power base in central Iraq.

-Complied with allowing UN inspectors to all sites.-Complied with destroying all weapons that didn't break any rules, but did so as a sign of goodwill.

"Complied with destroying all weapons that didn't break any rules?" What the hell does that mean? Iraq destroyed weapons that didn't break rules? What are you talking about?

You said that Saddam was in full compliance before the military buildup compelled him to do so, and you are wrong. But don't take my word for it, how about Hans Blix himself: "I have no doubt that we would not have been admitted into Iraq if it had not been for the U.S. military buildup in the summer of 2002
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/international/jan-june04/blix_3-17.html

Again, you are wrong.

On the chaplian issue: all I said, in the text you quoted, was that there are chaplains for a variety of faiths. Good lord man, every article about this Yee guy identified him as a Muslim chaplain! That's how I knew there are Muslim chaplains. What difference does it make what their names are? You said there weren't Muslim chaplains, and there are. You were wrong on your example of how I was so dumb that you "proved me wrong with google searches."

As I said, you've already learned a lot from me
I've learned that despite your incoherence, ignorance, and rudeness, you are persistent. I assume you're still posting in this thread based on some puerile need to get the last word in. Well, you can have it after this post. I am done with this excruciating process of trying to divine what you mean from your ill-informed, vague, and childish posts.

Oh, and by the way: I was reading Foreign Affairs this weekend and came across several articles that used the word "Islamist." You might want to write to the editor-in-chief and tell him that Francis Fukayama, Professor of International Political Economy at the Nitze School of Advanced International Studies at Johns Hopkins University, and James Dobbins, Director of the International Security and Defense Policy Center at Rand, don't know what they're talking about.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom