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[Neff]

I'm gonna be the odd one out and say that Lords of Shadow is probably my favourite Castlevania. I didn't like DmC.

Metal Gear is different though because it's a franchise which has established a formula for over 20 years now, and every step of the way (with the exception of the NES Metal Gear 2, Portable Ops and Ac!d games, unless I'm mistaken) has been under the supervision of the same man, and it's rife with his character quirks and creative touches. Any new attempt at a Metal Gear game from this point on is going to be noticeably jarring, and times ten from a Western developer, so I wouldn't expect many to embrace it even half as well as they did with LoS (lol) or DmC (LOL!).

 

[redcrayon]

Castlevania LoS, MoF and LoS2 were a huge step down from SoTN, DoS, OOE etc for me.

Sure, 'make it a 3D action game like God of War with huge bosses and radial attacks!' sounds like a great idea, but it lost the 'soul' of the series for me, which was the immediate, arcadey action of the 2D games.

As for Devil May Cry, the whole series felt a bit spotty- I love the first and third ones, found 2 awful, 4 to feel bloated and lost within it's own lore, and DmC a fun game that felt like a different series altogether

 

[benicillin]

Konami's track record is pretty terrible, just look at how they pillaged the corpse of Silent Hill until it had nothing left to give except a terrible Diablo clone and some shitty straight-to-DVD movies. I think they honestly just want to get out of games entirely while cashing out their IPs, so I wouldn't expect anything from them.

 

[Mr. X]

Different era than today.

DMC2 was being worked on while Kamiya was finishing up DMC1. DMC3, Kamiya was apart of Clover working on other games.

 

[DVCY201]

Lords of Shadow only worked because Kojima and Kojima Productions were involved. Why do you think Lords of Shadow 2 was as tripe as it was when it was just MercurySteam?

They had close to zero involvement, it was literally an ad. They did help, just not as much as I hoped.

Those examples aren't good. Especially given that Castlevania is done, and DMC is...somewhat still alive, I guess? You're argument would make sense if we take a look at DMC1 to DMC3, which of course was different teams. Or, I guess Killer Instinct too with that having changed hands as well.

 

[Tadale]

Even if you agree that the approach worked for DmC and Lords of Shadow, I'd say that more so than either of those two franchises, I suspect that the things that many people like about Metal Gear Solid comes from Kojima - intangible things like voice and style.

 

[Chamber]

probably yes.

but only because we became so used to the tried and true formula. I think without the nostalgia goggles Lords of the Shadow and DmC will probably fair better than what most people care to admit.

There's nothing to admit. Lords of Shadow and DmC flopped and put both franchises on life support. This comparison isn't a positive one.

 

[Fisico]

Not sure if OP is serious or not.
Look at where these two series are right now: absolutely nowhere.

 

[Valnen]

Errr not good examples really both went down pretty badly with fans and sales lol

What? Devil May Cry 3 is a way better game than 1. Fans are pretty split on this. Kamiya wasn't involved with 3, I don't believe, so...yeah, changing hands did work. The OP's specific example of DmC doesn't work as well, but you can just use DMC3 as a better example of why it can work.

 

[SturokBGD]

Yeah, M2's Castlevania game is pretty great.

Oh wait that's not what you're talking about? :/

 

[tokkun]

Well, it did "work" for Devil May Cry in the sense that the creator went on to make other great games rather than being saddled down with a franchise that had run its course creatively.

 

[Xpliskin]

Is this a joke thread ?

 

[ViviOggi]

It worked for Devil May Cry and Castlevania

 

[GuardianE]

probably yes.

but only because we became so used to the tried and true formula. I think without the nostalgia goggles Lords of the Shadow and DmC will probably fair better than what most people care to admit.

I think without nostalgia glasses, both DmC and Lords of Shadow suffer from significant deficiencies that were their predecessors' strengths. At least DmC has the DE that cleans up many of its problems, but Lords of Shadow had severe performance and pacing issues for me. The entire latter half of the game felt like a complete slog, and they completely squandered the talents of Patrick Stewart.

And from a financial standpoint, vanilla DmC remains the worst selling in the series. I don't know off hand how Lords of Shadow performed, but I do know its abysmal sequel didn't do so hot.

 

[Ridley327]

The worst part about the OP is there are at least two good examples of franchises being handled by almost entirely new teams that turned out great in Metroid Prime and F-Zero GX.

 

[lherre]

They also actually helped on the game. From assisting with enhancing models, to playtesting, to even a trailer made by Hideo Kojima himself, which made the game look astronomically better than what it was.

Yeah, but KojiPro wasn't involved at all. They helped for example with the movement capture technology-facilities if I remember correctly.

Spoiler

(One of my friends worked on the title)

 

[Led_Zeppelin]

You forgot Sillent Hill among the games that needed a shake up that fans ended up loving and you also forgot

Spoiler

Dungeon Keeper mobile

.

 

[Hasney]

It worked for Bomberman guys. It could work here too!

 

[Fury451]

Well, it did "work" for Devil May Cry in the sense that the creator went on to make other great games rather than being saddled down with a franchise that had run its course creatively.

Exactly. This is probably good for everyone if Kojima still wants to make games after this. He can flex his creativity outside of the MGS confines.

 

[Sir Ilpalazzo]

DmC is a horrible example. The updated version has been pretty well-received, but most DMC fans (both hardcore players online and more casual players) did not react well to the original DmC. It was pretty much only reviewers and gaming press who called it a "breath of fresh air".

 

[Stone Ocean]

I think without nostalgia glasses, both DmC and Lords of Shadow suffer from significant problems. At least DmC has the DE that cleans up many of its problems, but Lords of Shadow had severe performance and pacing issues for me. The entire latter half of the game felt like a complete slog, and they completely squandered the talents of Patrick Stewart.

And from a financial standpoint, vanilla DmC remains the worst selling in the series. I don't know off hand how Lords of Shadow performed, but I do know its abysmal sequel didn't do so hot.

IIRC LoS sold quite well. We got two sequels after all.

 

[Hystzen]

What? Devil May Cry 3 is a way better game than 1. Fans are pretty split on this. Kamiya wasn't involved with 3, I don't believe, so...yeah, changing hands did work. The OP's specific example of DmC doesn't work as well, but you can just use DMC3 as a better example of why it can work.

OP is mainly saying about DMC he states after 4 games DmC stopped series getting stale which is incorrect.

 

[BeautifulMemory]

Sure. Let ninja theory take over mgs. Let the world burn. Why not

 

[Unspeakable Evil]

I don't believe DmC sales set the world on fire.

 

[FloatOn]

Also, I haven't played lords of the shadow 2 so there's that.

I knew this thread would be controversial but I'm trying to be optimistic here. In my experience, both DmC and Lords of the Shadow were fun action games that I appreciated because they were bold enough to change things up (for better or worse).

it's totally cool if you guys want to be doom and gloom but I'm just saying it's possible we might be pleasantly surprised. That is, if you are willing to keep an open mind and not expect to play the same game for the next 20 years.

 

[Akiller]

Metal Gear is a very peculiar game. You can almost see Kojima through it.

Exactly, this is an important difference that we have to underline,MGS IS Kojima to me.

 

[deleted]

What? Devil May Cry 3 is a way better game than 1. Fans are pretty split on this. Kamiya wasn't involved with 3, I don't believe, so...yeah, changing hands did work. The OP's specific example of DmC doesn't work as well, but you can just use DMC3 as a better example of why it can work.

We had 4 and a reboot after that though and 2 was so bad they needed to fix things up with a prequel to have more connections to 1 than 2.

MGS won't be the same. It has lots and lots attention to detail, no other developers accomplish to put in. Just look at the commercials in front of MGS4 - do you think that would have happened without Kojima?
He didn't always make the right call, but he always stood by his concept and took the time to realize it.

Watch the series become more streamlined and have a faster dev cycle now.
The good thing: Kojima didn't have the chance to run the series into the ground himself and go all Lucas on us. Which probably would have happened at one point.

 

[Hasney]

Sure. Let ninja theory take over mgs. Let the world burn. Why not

I think I just threw up in my mouth a little.

 

[Foffy]

IIRC LoS sold quite well. We got two sequels after all.

One somehow killed the trend of Castlevania on Nintendo handhelds, and the other was barely a fart in the wind. You are right about the original game: somehow, it's the best selling game in the entire franchise.

 

[redcrayon]

probably yes.

but only because we became so used to the tried and true formula. I think without the nostalgia goggles Lords of the Shadow and DmC will probably fair better than what most people care to admit.

I think DmC will do better as, detached from the drastic change to Dante, it's a fun action game in it's own right. LoS is a reasonable enough God-of-War clone, but MoF is terrible and LoS2 just had no idea what it wanted to be or do with it's iconic main character. I mean, it's a Castlevania game where you don't control a Belmont, or a Morris, or Alucard. You control freaking Dracula, and the best thing they can come up with for death's own boss is stalking a shopping centre. LoS would be seen in a better light without the sequels.

It also isn't nostalgia that has me holding the 2D Castlevania games as quality titles. I only played Rondo of Blood, Harmony of Dissonance and Circle of the Moon for the first time in the last couple of years, around the same time as playing Mirror of Fate. All of them wipe the floor with MoF.

 

[GuardianE]

IIRC LoS sold quite well. We got two sequels after all.

Could be. It was marketed pretty heavily, has a nice universal appeal, and the problems with the game aren't obvious from previews or initial hands-on impressions.

 

[Jawmuncher]

It worked for Bomberman guys. It could work here too!

Stil waiting for act 1.

 

[Yokai]

Yeah, it sure worked for these two.. :|

Seriously.

 

[Neff]

They had close to zero involvement, it was literally an ad. They did help, just not as much as I hoped.

MercurySteam's protagonist for LoS was initially a stockier, angrier, sneering Kratos-like, and Kojima told them to make him more handsome and relatable.

And that was it.

 

[Led_Zeppelin]

Sure. Let ninja theory take over mgs. Let the world burn. Why not

I would love for something like that to happen. The gaming press will surely rush to aid their friends at NT and why they are making a better MGS than what it was before and why everyone is just crying that Snake hair isn't white.

 

[Danielsan]

I enjoyed both DmC and the first Lord of Shadow, but ho boy. Let's not pretend that these games are up to their respective series' standards.

 

[the TMO]

I think is one of the saddest day of my gaming life.

 

[FunkyPajamas]

It worked for Bomberman guys. It could work here too!

It worked for Halo guys. It could work here too!

 

[Maaaaaardy]

OP is correct, DmC: Devil May Cry was fantastic, and the change of pace helped Castlevania. Not sure it'd work 100% for MGS, but it's a good thought and one I agree with.

 

[sixteen-bit]

Maybe without Kojima the Metal Gear series will becomes less misogynistic

 

[BobTheFork]

It could work but in both those cases, lots of people never bought the new games and hated it, as is their want. Count me in already for MGS.

I think it's a case where they really need to call it something else. You want to make a Tactical Espionage Action game, go for it.

 

[geordiemp]

I think it is a but unfair on the team that make MGS that all the praise is heaped on one guy.

Yes, Kojima heads it up but the team around him also deserve praise, he certainly does not make the game himself.

If Kojima AND the team that make it leave I agree....its dead...

If its just Kojima then Its a bit early to write off MGS and not appreciating the number of people that put their lives into such games.

 

[Pilgrimzero]

Maybe without Kojima the Metal Gear series will becomes less misogynistic

And not so up it's ass on scifi tech and anime tropes.

I would love a more gritty and realistic Metal Gear more akin the first MGS1.

 

[Kuro]

Way to use the worst examples DmC was horrible and Lords Of Shadow or whatever is a joke GoW clone.

 

[Led_Zeppelin]

Also, I haven't played lords of the shadow 2 so there's that.

I knew this thread would be controversial but I'm trying to be optimistic here. In my experience, both DmC and Lords of the Shadow were fun action games that I appreciated because they were bold enough to change things up (for better or worse).

it's totally cool if you guys want to be doom and gloom but I'm just saying it's possible we might be pleasantly surprised. That is, if you are willing to keep an open mind and not expect to play the same game for the next 20 years.

The point everyone makes is that both cases are bad examples. Metroid Prime is a prime example of a radical change in direction of the series that meet fan expectations, critical reception and commercial success.

LoS is polarizing as much as DmC, 2D Castlevania in their majority treat LoS as nothing more than a God of War clone. And lest not even bring DmC into the conversation that is a game that polarized things so much that Tameem had to go radio silence for months after the game release, gaming press took arms against DMC fans that voiced their complains about the changes in the game and the game failed to meet capcom expections almost 3 times in a row seeing diminish in market expectations almost every quarter after release for like a year and becoming the worse selling game in the history of the franchise right after the most successful one.

There are better examples of series that changed direction and or original directors that turn out for the best.

 

[Eolz]

It worked for Metroid with Other M too

Spoiler

:^)

 

[Mandoric]

Op is technically right that it worked for DMC and Castlevania, but it's more "It worked for DMC3 (eventually) and SotN" and less "it worked for DmC and LoS".

I definitely don't think it's impossible, but MGS's unique gameplay, even more that Kojima's wild rides, was the product of an MSX-era veteran's mindset and it's going to be extremely hard to find someone else who can, and wants to, give that kind of quirky and mostly-hidden experience a layer of paint that makes it palatable to modern content tourists.

I could be wrong, and we could see another uprooted Japanese legend move in. We could see a westerner who found his love for games with MGS produce a back-to-basics entry that rings truer than 4. We could see an ancillary staffer have IGA-level years of ideas about how to hang on to the unique aesthetic and worldview while moving in a new direction.

On the other hand, we could also get outsourced TPS #438721.

 

[Ridley327]

I think it is a but unfair on the team that make MGS that all the praise is heaped on one guy.

Yes, Kojima heads it up but the team around him also deserve praise, he certainly does not make the game himself.

If Kojima AND the team that make it leave I agree....its dead...

If its just Kojima then Its a bit early to write off MGS and not appreciating the number of people that put their lives into such games.

It's not like we don't already have two examples of what happens when Kojima isn't supervising on a Metal Gear title!

No one claims he does everything by himself, but he has such a specific vision for those games that losing him would be deeply felt, even if he was surrounded by extremely talented guys.

 

[Ratrat]

I think it is a but unfair on the team that make MGS that all the praise is heaped on one guy.

Yes, Kojima heads it up but the team around him also deserve praise, he certainly does not make the game himself.

If Kojima AND the team that make it leave I agree....its dead...

If its just Kojima then Its a bit early to write off MGS and not appreciating the number of people that put their lives into such games.

You saw what happened when Hayter was let go. The same would happen if they got rid of Shinkawa. Where are you getting the idea this is solely about the creator/writer/director of the franchise?

 

[Fury451]

I think it is a but unfair on the team that make MGS that all the praise is heaped on one guy.

Yes, Kojima heads it up but the team around him also deserve praise, he certainly does not make the game himself.

If Kojima AND the team that make it leave I agree....its dead...

If its just Kojima then Its a bit early to write off MGS and not appreciating the number of people that put their lives into such games.

He's the "name", in the same way "A Christopher Nolan film" implies something good (if you like him of course).

It let's you know to expect a quality product, it doesn't mean he's getting praise and neglecting his team.

If it's as messy as it seems, his team, or at least key members would likely go with him or be removed by Konami.