I think DmC and Lords of the Shadow stuck out to me because they are the most recent examples.
It worked for Devil May Cry and Castlevania... why couldn't it work for Metal Gear?
- Thread starter FloatOn
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I think DmC and Lords of the Shadow stuck out to me because they are the most recent examples.
Alex_Mexico
Member
Well Lords of Shadow 1 continues to be THE best selling game in franchise history.
I'd say that means "it worked for Castlevania". At least for one game. The sequels were a dissapointment for sure.
Sho_Nuff82
Member
DmC was a commercial disappointment that sold about half of DMC4 (and the series has been on hiatus ever since), and while LoS was promising, LoS2 effectively ended the Castlevania franchise.
Wat.
Who at Konami gives you any confidence that they can make a modern AAA action game? What journeyman dev has the chops to make a hardcore stealth game?
Wat.
Who at Konami gives you any confidence that they can make a modern AAA action game? What journeyman dev has the chops to make a hardcore stealth game?
The fact is, we don't know how Kojima's departure is going to change the future of the MGS series. We can speculate and draw up examples, but history has shown us that the door swings both ways here.
Aside from the OP's horrible examples, we very well could get something that either rejuvenates the series or something that kills the series. These are both very real possibilities. The only thing we know for sure is that Metal Gear will never be the same.
Aside from the OP's horrible examples, we very well could get something that either rejuvenates the series or something that kills the series. These are both very real possibilities. The only thing we know for sure is that Metal Gear will never be the same.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
I disagree that it worked for DMC. DmC did have a fresh new look, but the game play was stale in comparison, and I pretty much dropped the title as soon as I beat it. I still go back to DMC from time to time for the gameplay. I don't know where the MGS series will go, but honestly I'd be happy if it just ended where it's at.
Vallen Valiant
Banned
Do tell us examples of when the door did swing the other way for Konami. Because currently other than MGS, they don't have any active game franchises left that isn't football.
It sold about on par with Circle of the Moon. To be fair it also got an unprecedented budget for both the game itself and it's marketing.
It's success certainly didn't give legs to it's follow ups either.
Led_Zeppelin
Member
There are more that one sequel to LoS? I though the complete garbage mess that was LoS 2 was the only sequel.
Well I think you just have to look at Konami specifically, then look at how well they did with Silent Hill. Even a generational change flummoxed them for an entire generation with Pro Evolution Soccer until the FOX Engine bailed them out, then bought Hudsonsoft and did nothing with them, crippled BeMani arcades so they can't even be imported outside of Japan and shit up Castlevania bar the one entry that sold well.
So yeah, as an industry in general, the door can swing both ways. For Konami, the last 10 or so years of evidence pretty much shows that the odds are horribly stacked against them doing anything close to achieving the same quality.
robotzombie
Member
But they aren't examples that actually work with the point you wanted to make
I don't get while people keep bringing up numbers.... as if that is some metric for whether a game is good or not. Call of Duty sells an insane amount of copies and I think that game is horrible.
And I don't think MGS has ever been considered a hardcore stealth game. Wouldn't that be something more akin to the original Thief games?
Personally I'd love to see a metal gear game developed by Arkane Studios (dishonored devs) but that is probably a long shot.
Because that's what Konami needs for this, this is their winning metric because that's what they need and hope from this.
Personally I think DmC was horrible and it didn't sell well, so both metrics are there for me.
OP these are, like, the WORST examples... the only one you have may have a point be DMC and you picked the wrong angle (the better one being from Kamiya to Itsuno) but Castlevania? Dear lord T_T
Metal Gear is a big deal for Konami. They might opt to outsource it or enlist help from a more capable development team. There could be budding team leaders within Kojipro that are staying with Konami? I'm not optimistic, but I'm also not dooming the series completely. I think we just don't have enough information.
This is true. Taking into account Konami's history, it does look sort of bleak. But if there was ever a time where Konami would pump money and resources into a project, it would be for Metal Gear.
Because sales numbers are a significant barometer of the success of a title or new direction.
Stealth games are few and far between, and I think MGS certainly qualifies as one.
Arc Christelle
Member
dam u delusional bruh.
Stone Ocean
Member
Mirror of Fate
It's actually kind of hard to say which of the two games is the worst.
Last DMC was pretty bad. Annoying main character, Vergil is a pathetic little whiner compared to the badass Vergil from DMC3. 30 FPS in a DMC game? Fuck that.
Lords of Shadow doesn't feel like Castlevania at all. Annoying main character, no exploration (at least not in LoS1). Igavanias are light years beyond LoS. I still hope for some kind of spiritual successor from Iga, but it's not likely at this point.
Holy shit, I just realized, MGS is truly fucked...
Lords of Shadow doesn't feel like Castlevania at all. Annoying main character, no exploration (at least not in LoS1). Igavanias are light years beyond LoS. I still hope for some kind of spiritual successor from Iga, but it's not likely at this point.
Holy shit, I just realized, MGS is truly fucked...
Actually, most people in this thread are simply laughing at your poor examples. Ignoring that and being dismissive doesn't make you sound any more convincing.
Your main point is that a change of leadership sometimes fosters success within a series, and that's true. But people are wary because of Konami's involvement and attitude of late.
ITT people who don't think Konami can do anything without Kojima and his team because their recent track record has indicated this.
You can make a case for LoS, but even then, that was close to 5 years ago now.
Eh, sometimes change is bad.
Especially when expectations have already been established.
It worked for Bomberman guys. It could work here too!
Another Konami franchise...
Arc Christelle
Member
ITT a person who doesn't understand that not all change is good.
No, that's not what it is. People realize that MGS is doomed to poor management and a drop in quality because
RealityExists
Member
Joined: 08-06-2012
and that's what Konami has shown. Also, it's not like he's leaving on his own and parting ways amicably from the sounds of it, so that's different.
The chosen examples are also not good in context at all. All change doesn't produce positive results, because lol Bomberman Act Zero.
thekonamicode
Member
Symphony of the Night, the handheld Iga games and the entirety of the MGS franchise are thought of fondly because of nostalgia goggles? Now I've seen everything there is to see on gaf.
Led_Zeppelin
Member
Ok, bro whatever. You choose 2 of the worse example to try to illustrate your point, most of gaf points out that at the very least those 2 examples aren't the best in any way and it is our fault that we don't like changes.
BobTheFork
Member
Metal Gear Solid 6: from the director of District 9 and District 9
JediLink
Member
Yep, DMC3 and Symphony of the Night sure were fantastic.
Wait
You messed up, OP.
robotzombie
Member
there was a fork in the road, and you chose the path of doubling down...
bolded for the important.
It's fine if you guys didn't enjoy LoS or DmC. I did. And to me they represented a refreshing change of pace for their series. I think I enjoyed them more than most because I wasn't expecting them to be the same thing as their predecessors. It's sad that people get so used to a formula that any deviation is automatically seen as a bad thing.
I just get bummed out reading all this "it's the end of gaming" nonsense lately and I think sometimes being optimisitc has it's place.
Hellraider
Member
I love change. I'm just afraid of Konami. And pretty much every single publisher in this industry.
AgentLampshade
Member
It didn't work for any of those games and sales data proves it.
I did enjoy LoS and DmC, but they didn't work out
I think you're misinterpreting the fear here (for both MGS and DMC, quite frankly). It's not fear that the formula will change. It's a fear of the change in overall quality and pedigree. Kojima was a notorious stickler and someone with an attention for detail. People are concerned that this level of standard won't be upheld with someone else behind the reigns, and that's a legitimate concern.
You call it optimism. Some might call it naiveté.
LoS was the best selling in Castlevania franchise history.
The sequels shit the bed though.
Xion_Stellar
People should stop referencing data that makes me feel uncomfortable because games get ported to platforms I don't like
First post bails it your crazy OP but let me go along with you line of thinking here so that means that according to you every Resident Evil after Resident Evil 4 has been just as good or better without Shinji Mikami around,or the Mega man has seen so much success and praise without Keiji Inafune there, or the Conker franchise is in a much better place without Chris Seavor and his team around to handle the IP.
I would love to live in your Alternative Reality OP but the truth of the matter is that once the Original Development Team/Director stops working on the IP in question than it's extremely unlikely that the IP will ever be as good as it used to be.
semiconscious
Member
i'm pretty certain that you & i agree on absolutely nothing...
kojima's as capable of 'evolving' as any game developer in existence. his track record proves it. so, no friggin' torches really necessary
...ProfessorMoran
Member
Those games were shit compared to games by the original teams, yeah we should just fucking farm out franchises to some third tier work for hire developers, yeah that's definitely the way to go.
IronicSonic
Member
It worked? Really OP?
dancingphlower
Member
Not sure what worked for DmC, seeing as the sales were considerably worse than DMC4 and it only had a Metacritic average about 1-2 points higher as well. Didn't exactly work out all that well for Capcom. Fan reception tends to be mixed, but generally regarded as worse than DMC1 and DMC3.
Get out of here with that nonsense. You picked two examples which were heavily criticised that ended up killing the series (DmC sold abysmally outright, and LoS lead to two awful games that both sold very badly), then proceeded to explain away people's complains with the "nostalgia glasses" argument.
Metroid Prime is a much better example of a change of hands that did critically and commercially well for a franchise, without shitting all over the prior games in the series. Of course it also lead to Metroid: Other M, which... well, yeah. Donkey Kong Country switched with a pretty good success rate too. There are loads of great examples of it being a success, just none of the ones you listed.
Led_Zeppelin
Member
The issue is that first it is nonsensical to argue about subjective things, that is why people usually bring out sales, critical reception and general perceived fan reception to talk about games, in this case DmC and LoS and their success (or lack of) in their respective franchises.
When we left this clear, DmC may have been a good DMC for you, but fan reception of the game was abysmal, sales were terrible and the only thing good was critical reception (which antagonize DMC fans for their complains about the game), we can't say that the project was a success in anyway shape or form. Even less when we argue that Capcom wanted to grow and expand the audience for DMC instead of cut it in half and antagonize the entire fanbase.
LoS has more on its favor, since it reviewed well and sold incredible, but it is also to point out that it was the first Castlevania game to be so heavily promoted and also it was a complete deviation of the original games, so much that after the hype for LoS died nobody cared about LoS 2 and the other sequel I didn't even knew it existed and LoS now is considered a good game (to some) but basically just a Castlevania skin over a God of War game.
As other people pointed out DMC is a prime example of how the change of director can give the game a new life and even turn it out for the best, but it isn't the DMC game you pointed out. The same goes for Castlevania.
Zombie James
Banned
Heh, "worked." How did handing Silent Hill to a different team work out for that series? It's like Konami wants to implode.
We've already seen what happens to Metal Gear without Kojima. It's not pretty.
Maybe it could be good at another company, but never Konami.
Vallen Valiant
Banned
It's not that simple. It is one thing if we are talking about a game studio with multiple active, strong franchises and talented employees ready to make games, but we are not talking about such a studio. We are talking about Konami, a studio that once had a literal mountain of vibrant game franchises, yet squandered them all until only Metal Gear Solid and Pro Evolution Soccer remained.
If Konami had other active franchises under their belt in the present time, I would have been less worried. As it is, with Kojima gone they are now barely a videogame company anymore.
Netherscourge
Banned
The console Castlevanias have been horrible ever since.