Chaos2Frozen
Member
That's why we need Ninja Theory to handle a MGS reboot, that way more people would understand how Snake used to be cool but now isn't.
It worked for Devil May Cry and Castlevania... why couldn't it work for Metal Gear?
- Thread starter FloatOn
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That's why we need Ninja Theory to handle a MGS reboot, that way more people would understand how Snake used to be cool but now isn't.
robotzombie
Member
Incoming "you people just hate change!"
already happened
A directorial change isn't a bad thing in the context of franchises. When you have one director attached to the same series for about two decades, especially someone like Kojima who prides himself as a visionary, it's no wonder that he's going to get bored with his current vision and stray into "new" territories simply because he's not allowed to do much else with his games. Metal Gear Solid, while always maintaining crazy production values, have had completely different vibes with each sequel that it's impossible for me to point at MGS, MGS4 and MGSV and think of them as cohesive.
That said, Kojima has been on this series for too long that we sort of expect the universe of Metal Gear to change along with him. You're right; a change in development leads worked for Devil May Cry... all the way up until 4. The series did go through visionary changes because another director was responsible for all the games after the first one, but that worked only because by that point, DMC's framework allowed for it to be continued in spirit by other people. By having fresh faces with similar ways of production approach you can maintain the spirit of the games. But then it was handed to another developer with DmC that had an entirely different mentality of game development, and it was seen as a betrayal of vision.
It didn't really work for Castlevania either, as the sordid tale of Lords of Shadow 2 will attest to.
MGS is the only series Konami has that actively matters right now, so it's no wonder they're going to try to salvage that ship. But Kojima having been so long on the franchise is going to raise serious issues. At this point it's not just a series of video games, it's a huge enterprise lead by an auteur - something solely designed around his vision.
Plenty of big series out there are designed for future prospects of becoming a franchise that can be passed on. Games like Mario, Zelda, Halo, Uncharted etc., are all series that don't rely on the principles of a brainchild as much as they do on a massively educated and cohesive development team.
Metal Gear Solid isn't really one of those. Kojima was, essentially, an indie with an endless budget. It was designed to end the moment Kojima finally decides to put down the pen, and as such practically every game had a "definitive ending" to it that could end the series right there if he chose to close it off.
That said, Kojima has been on this series for too long that we sort of expect the universe of Metal Gear to change along with him. You're right; a change in development leads worked for Devil May Cry... all the way up until 4. The series did go through visionary changes because another director was responsible for all the games after the first one, but that worked only because by that point, DMC's framework allowed for it to be continued in spirit by other people. By having fresh faces with similar ways of production approach you can maintain the spirit of the games. But then it was handed to another developer with DmC that had an entirely different mentality of game development, and it was seen as a betrayal of vision.
It didn't really work for Castlevania either, as the sordid tale of Lords of Shadow 2 will attest to.
MGS is the only series Konami has that actively matters right now, so it's no wonder they're going to try to salvage that ship. But Kojima having been so long on the franchise is going to raise serious issues. At this point it's not just a series of video games, it's a huge enterprise lead by an auteur - something solely designed around his vision.
Plenty of big series out there are designed for future prospects of becoming a franchise that can be passed on. Games like Mario, Zelda, Halo, Uncharted etc., are all series that don't rely on the principles of a brainchild as much as they do on a massively educated and cohesive development team.
Metal Gear Solid isn't really one of those. Kojima was, essentially, an indie with an endless budget. It was designed to end the moment Kojima finally decides to put down the pen, and as such practically every game had a "definitive ending" to it that could end the series right there if he chose to close it off.
Oh I don't know something about turning the character from a lighthearted flirtatious wise guy. To a foul mouth pig that sleeps with strippers and lives in a trailer.
DustyVonEric
Member
Not to pile on, but what the heck am I reading, OP?
Those two games seem like examples of why this is shitty for Metal Gear.
I said it in the other thread, MG goes DBGT from here. Toriyama left the building.
Those two games seem like examples of why this is shitty for Metal Gear.
I said it in the other thread, MG goes DBGT from here. Toriyama left the building.
For all the Rising hate, if Kojima had spent time trying to salvage MGSR before continuing with MGS5, it's possible Kojima would have left before MGS5 even became a thing.
Most of it is rooted in the original TGS reveal, which was a pretty putrid character overall, and left a horrible aftertaste that still lingers to this day. That said, NuDante and DMC4 Dante are equally dumb, but a different kind of dumb.
Most of it is rooted in the original TGS reveal, which was a pretty putrid character overall, and left a horrible aftertaste that still lingers to this day. That said, NuDante and DMC4 Dante are equally dumb, but a different kind of dumb.
I don't know why so many people assume that a new Metal Gear game without Kojima's involvement has no chance of being GOOD. Metal Gear Rising wasn't directed by Kojima but it was still a fantastic action game. I think the only thing we can expect from future metal gear titles is the strong possibility that they won't feel like they have as much of Kojima's authorship because, for better or worse, nobody can duplicate his style. But that doesn't mean future MG games are destined to suck just because they lack the input of the original creator of the series.
Castlevania: LOS was a flawed games, but still the best 3D castlevania and arguable the most refreshing installment in the series since SOTN. Silent Hills wasn't directed by Team Silent, but based on what footage was shown, it was on the way to becoming the scariest, most mind fucked game in the series since part 2. Of course those games were also co-directed by Kojima, lol. I dunno, maybe MGS really is screwed.
Castlevania: LOS was a flawed games, but still the best 3D castlevania and arguable the most refreshing installment in the series since SOTN. Silent Hills wasn't directed by Team Silent, but based on what footage was shown, it was on the way to becoming the scariest, most mind fucked game in the series since part 2. Of course those games were also co-directed by Kojima, lol. I dunno, maybe MGS really is screwed.
MoF and LoS2 bombed
Lost Planet 3 bombed
DmC bombed
Silent Hill died after homecoming and downpour
Ninja Gaiden 3 bombed after Itakgaki left.
Farming out IP to western devs is never a good solution or even farming out IP without the input of the former creative lead that put the franchise in the spotlight as evident from last gen.
Lost Planet 3 bombed
DmC bombed
Silent Hill died after homecoming and downpour
Ninja Gaiden 3 bombed after Itakgaki left.
Farming out IP to western devs is never a good solution or even farming out IP without the input of the former creative lead that put the franchise in the spotlight as evident from last gen.
DMC1/3/4 Dante is a lovable goofy asshole while Donte is just a asshole.
Frankensteiner
Banned
Pretty good troll, OP.
You had me going for a second.
You had me going for a second.
I think certain series can certainly survive when their creator leaves. Look at God of War that just got a new trailer for its remake as an example and has had 5 or 6 games post Jaffe.
Now I still think the story in the first GoW is the pinnacle of the series but the sequels have managed to maintain quality moving forward.
I think it will be a tall order to achieve that with MGS. Gameplay wise they may be able to maintain but the story is so uniquely kojima( that I loved in 1 and 3 and hated in 2 and 4) that I doubt it will be able to be maintained in the same tone and craziness.
Now I still think the story in the first GoW is the pinnacle of the series but the sequels have managed to maintain quality moving forward.
I think it will be a tall order to achieve that with MGS. Gameplay wise they may be able to maintain but the story is so uniquely kojima( that I loved in 1 and 3 and hated in 2 and 4) that I doubt it will be able to be maintained in the same tone and craziness.
Except the things Kojima is doing with MGSV are very fresh. Open-world metal gear with a huge bump up on the traversal/combat mechanics.
Although I enjoyed the DmC reboot (primarily for the combat changes and interesting art direction), I felt the game lacked the classic DMC soul that I fell in love with in DMC 1 and 3.
Without Kojima driving the quirky MGS wagon, it will lose what actually made it so special.
You're absolutely correct. I didn't play Fallout 1 or 2 and just assumed long time fans loved 3.
Sorry about that!
Fallout 3 is actually a good example though. It obviously isn't what fans of the original expected it or wanted it to be but Bethesda and later Obsidian took a franchise that they knew they couldn't replicate as it was successfully and turned it into something new that in it's own way stood as a very good game. The obsidian one especially.
the problem with metal gear solid is that it is a continuation story. Kojima is te only one with the puzzle pieces in place so to ask another to come in and understand that madness and try and carry the torch is unrealistic.
It's impossible for metal gear to remain at a high quality going forward? No, but it is going to be harder then it was with anything anyone has listed so far. So the possibilty for failure is much higher.
But frankly I have only liked the story in 1 and 3 so to me the story isn't a big selling point anymore. 2 and 4 to me story wise were awful.
Chaos2Frozen
Member
Sure if all they make now are just spin offs. Rising isn't a main series Metal Gear game so there's some leeway, but you can bet even the biggest Platinum Games fan would hesitate if they were doing a main title.
Astral Dog
Member
When you said "it worked for DMC" I thought you were thinking of DMC 3 and 4 made by Itsuno....not DmC.
And didnt read the rest about Castlevania, its about Lord of Shadows too? lol.
And didnt read the rest about Castlevania, its about Lord of Shadows too? lol.
I'll agree outright that Platinum should not be making stealth games. In fact, very few devs should be making them at all.
NCR Redslayer
NeoGAF's Vegeta
It will work but it depends on how good it will work. IIRC, DmC sold way less than it could to be successful and LoS sold way better than expected. Usually its kinda random on what new things will sell or not based on a pre existing IP. And the same thing will happen if a new metal gear comes out.
Wolvesinthebathroom
Member
Controversial Opinions: DmC is a better game than DMC 1, 2, and 4.
Luckily fans of the games you've listed, the fanbase disagrees. And they showed it in the only way a company will take note: with their wallets.
Chaos2Frozen
Member
Sit, watch, understand.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPqrXC5hpSQ
Oh god I hope you don't mean 1st person cam.
That's an opinion, alright.
Does DmCs basic enemies have more than two attacks? No? Then it can't be better than DMC1.
Astral Dog
Member
Dante was an entertaining character though, at least most people remember his personality fondly. although Donte is very inoffensive, he was changed a lot after the inital reaction so its kind of weird seeing DmC now trying to be like the original series, Divine Comedy quotes and all, like on the DE.
They (Konami) should just do a new saga with new characters, or at least a new protagonist (technically the MG/MGS saga already has an ending).
Purple Mug
Banned
No need to excuse having that opinion. I personally share it as well.
I found NuDante entertaining, though, some times. The "fuck you" scene is actually entertaining in its over-the-top stupidity, and the scene in the intro when he gets dressed in the trailer is probably my favorite in the game.
Candescence
Member
So... You're using a by-the-numbers God of War ripoff that crashed and burned with its sequels and a completely unnecessary reboot (mainly because its predecessors weren't at all getting stale) that a huge chunk of its series fanbase hated its publisher went out of its way to avoid admitting its a commercial failure, and the remaster is almost a complete redo of the gameplay?
Seriously, you picked the two worst examples for this. I'd be impressed if it weren't kinda dumb. And Sonic Boom only comes in third because the show and comics are actually good.
Really, a reboot/alternative universe wouldn't be unusual for Metal Gear, we've got two examples with Ghost Babel in place of the events of MGS1 and Acid replacing basically the whole Solid Snake saga. Though I have heard that Acid takes place in a timeline where Big Boss actually told Snake damn well everything about the cloning thing and the Patriots. I can actually imagine a timeline where Snake teams up with Foxhound and shuts down the Patriots early. That would've been interesting.
But, yeah, it's mainly to do with both talent and respect for the source material - you have to have both, not just one (like Lords of Shadow). And God forbid that the studio in charge has neither (Ninja Theory's DmC being case in point, holy crap, that game sucked hard). Konami would have to get a damn good developer. Or just get Platinum to make Rising 2.
Seriously, you picked the two worst examples for this. I'd be impressed if it weren't kinda dumb. And Sonic Boom only comes in third because the show and comics are actually good.
Really, a reboot/alternative universe wouldn't be unusual for Metal Gear, we've got two examples with Ghost Babel in place of the events of MGS1 and Acid replacing basically the whole Solid Snake saga. Though I have heard that Acid takes place in a timeline where Big Boss actually told Snake damn well everything about the cloning thing and the Patriots. I can actually imagine a timeline where Snake teams up with Foxhound and shuts down the Patriots early. That would've been interesting.
But, yeah, it's mainly to do with both talent and respect for the source material - you have to have both, not just one (like Lords of Shadow). And God forbid that the studio in charge has neither (Ninja Theory's DmC being case in point, holy crap, that game sucked hard). Konami would have to get a damn good developer. Or just get Platinum to make Rising 2.
Wolvesinthebathroom
Member
I do think DMC 3 is hands down the best game in the series. Hopefully we can agree on that.
BeautifulMemory
Member
Wonder how a new MGS would play like? Probably a lot of pew pew and QTEs
Though I recognize some key strengths of DMC1 and DMC4 over DMC3, DMC3 remains my personal favorite and best, yes.
I probably should have rephrased my initial post in the thread to "worse received" than just "worse" because I think it encourages a more relevant and productive discussion.
BIONIC-ARRRMMM!!
Member
ShockingAlberto
Member
Based on the thread title, I assumed the examples in the OP were going to be DMC3 and Symphony of the Night, both of which technically apply to his argument.
Then I started reading.
Then I started reading.
Zxrophantom
Member
I think you are basing this on pure opinion given that both DmC and Castlevania were disappointing sell wise and very split when it comes to the fan base. So i don't think in both those cases you can say they worked.
reminiscingLemon
Neo Member
PeterVenkman
Member
Wow this is the most bizarre OP I've seen in awhile. Horrible examples.
immortal-joe
Member
Ask Nintendo fans if they want a Mother game from a new team.
giant_frying_pan
Member
Metal Gear Solid has Kojima's DNA throughout. It just won't be the same, but I don't see why it can't work a la Rising. For the changing of the guard to be tinged with alleged animosity is a shame.
I don't think you are the only [one] misjudging the situation though, OP. I don't understand the comparisons with Miyamoto's series for example given that he to this day still overseas the games and has given his blessing to a new generation of designers.
I don't think you are the only [one] misjudging the situation though, OP. I don't understand the comparisons with Miyamoto's series for example given that he to this day still overseas the games and has given his blessing to a new generation of designers.
I read the thread title and I was like "hopefully OP means DMC 3&4, otherwise lol"
First post and all that.
First post and all that.
I'm gonna go ahead and say Metal Gear is probably more conducive to a western developer than Silent Hill, Devil May Cry, and Castlevania ever were. The latter two occupy genres that western developers are arguably weaker in than Japanese teams. Metal Gear is a military game with guns -- well traveled ground for western developers. It just takes a developer that actually knows how to design a stealth game.
This would probably be idea... if Konami could actually get together a team of that caliber. Most Japanese publishers bringing in western developers have been grabbing B and C-tier ones because all the A-list guys are already working with western publishers. Konami would have to get extremely lucky here... and not get in the way of whatever that team tries to do.
The ironic part is, Phantom Pain seems very much to take on elements of open-ended action games like Dishonored, Deus Ex, or Far Cry 2. I heavily doubt though that Konami will actually get a team that's as good as Arkane or Eidos Montreal.
Where's Clint Hocking working again? Amazon?
This would probably be idea... if Konami could actually get together a team of that caliber. Most Japanese publishers bringing in western developers have been grabbing B and C-tier ones because all the A-list guys are already working with western publishers. Konami would have to get extremely lucky here... and not get in the way of whatever that team tries to do.
The ironic part is, Phantom Pain seems very much to take on elements of open-ended action games like Dishonored, Deus Ex, or Far Cry 2. I heavily doubt though that Konami will actually get a team that's as good as Arkane or Eidos Montreal.
Where's Clint Hocking working again? Amazon?
immortal-joe
Member
Rising is a poor example since Kojima was there to hand the project off to Platinum, so there were discussions about what the game would and wouldn't be. Moreover, the story, script and characters were by his team. This is without mentioning that Platinum were tasked with creating a character action game (their forte), and not a traditional MGS game.