I'm well aware of it since I don't know anyone in my family who will vote in the 2nd round. She still won't win though. Fillon will eat away at a lot of her voter base, I doubt she even gets 1st place in the 1st round like it was predicted in case of a Juppé candidacy. I'll eat crow if she gets anywhere near even 40%.
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Italian Constitutional Referendum 2016 - Renxit
- Thread starter Sickboy007
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Peter Ian Staker
Member
You may be totally right and Fillon wins easily but acting like its a done deal is a bad idea.
Sickboy007
Member
He's fucking obsessed. When they caught that stalker some time ago, I thought they finally got him.
Alx
Member
I certainly won't consider it's a done deal. But most people are too eager to claim "Le Pen is so going to win !" just because of Trump and Brexit, when they don't even know the details of local politics.
Sickboy007
Member
He's also become a huge hypocrite trying to discredit renzi and his party at every turn, even forming his own stories just to fit his agenda. He'd been doing this since the berlusconi era and it was much easier during that time, but he really outdid himself in the smear campaign in the last two to three years.
Frankfurter
Member
Euro wins more than 2 cents on the dollar, major stocks are up in Europe (more than 1% for the EuroStoxx 50, more than 1.5% for German DAX, 1% for French CAC 40 etc.). I'm puzzled.
Maybe the optimism derived from the Austrian elections and acknowledging that the Italian referendum doesn't matter that in the big scheme of things.
Could also be that the result was expected, too. The polls and the results aligned, for once.
I'll never get into stocks. No rhyme or reason.
Maybe i wasn't clear, i didn't say that lying is good, i said that brexit's effects are indipendent from the lies that politicians said to make people vote brexit.
I don't trust journalists yes, i always hear more voices and most of the times they say opposite things depending on their political faith, in my conception journalist should have faith only in truth.
Now someone invented the term "post truth" because some people spread lies during american election, what about all the lies that politicians and journalists said all the times? Have we forgot Berlusconi saying that Ruby was Mubarack's daughter and all the politicians and journalists defending him? What about all those bad things that should have happened with trump or brexit? What about all those fake polls?
Having an opinion doesn't mean borrowing the opinion of someone else.
That's what i'm trying to say, people see their own interests, they aren't interested in political games.
1000 days government being the 4/8th longer government is really something.
Don't misunderstand me, masses in general aren't that intelligent, they can trust all the lies politicians say to them but people isn't so stupid to give priority to political games over their interests, again they may take the wrong choice based on lies but at least they take it looking at their interests.
If people vote based on lies you should blame the liars, not people, most of the people isn't so smart or have the time to study laws and understand them.
I followed lots of debates on the referendum and it always happened that on the same thing one politician said it meant one thing while another politician said the opposite, how can we expect people to form the right opinion if that's the way things are always represented? Again most of the people doesn't have the instruments or the time to really understand laws so they have to trust what politicians say.
Too bad that elections don't have those numbers
Guys don't be fooled by what journalism say, journalist stopped being neutral decades ago, most of them now read and say things as they like, not as they are.
You are right...
Elections' affluenza is EVEN HIGHER
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elezioni_politiche_italiane_del_2013#Affluenza
That's what i was saying(re-reading my post now i understand it wasn't clear what i wanted to say, sorry), i admit i was remembering 80% though, i forgot the 75% so you are right about the numbers.
Now M5S wants the Italicum. Of course.
Not true. See what I meant before?
They said they'd use the Italicum.. With the fixes proposed by the Constitutional Court to make it right (ballot, blocked lists, majority bonus and the problems they talk about since forever).Not true. See what I meant before?
http://www.corriere.it/politica/16_...ze-a7981dd0-7f24-11e6-882b-8c36c80b948f.shtml
Please
So people are not responsible for the one they vote? I can't see how this can be alright, if people vote for a liar either they know, and that's ok for them, or they don't know, and it still totally their fault. If italian start to feel responsible for the ones they put in charge, or the decision they are ask to take, maybe we woldn't need a costitutional reform to be able to form a functional govern.
The things that are happening but you shrug off as "it's too soon to tell"? It's very convenient to just brush off all journalists as biased liars, until they provide an information you find convenient, and it's not that hard to fact check and cross examine most shit.
In fact, i am even wary of anyone crying about the press attacking M5S, when most of the embarrassing trash they're tied to, comes directly from them.
And you should form opinions based on facts, is what i'm saying, but you seem to wiggle your way around them, so i'm not sure how you arrive at any conclusion.
I mean something like Brexit has had only negative effects as of now, and many of the promises they made to support leaving were revealed to be bullshit right after they won (money to NHS, for one), yet you say campaign lies have nothing to do with how good Brexit is... i'd say the promises of its good points being revealed to be bullshit has plenty to do with it being good or bad.
"Let's wait and see" is a pretty weak deflection, really, because i can't physically prove to you that there won't be a magical improvement in the future, but really the burden of proof should be on you to tell me why things are going to turn great all of a sudden, in the long run, thanks to Brexit.
We have evidence of negative impact now, that is what we have, evidence of positive one, i have yet to read.
Too bad that elections don't have those numbers
Guys don't be fooled by what journalism say, journalist stopped being neutral decades ago, most of them now read and say things as they like, not as they are.
professional journalism isn't really the unquestionable source of truth but I'm kind of scared as the bolded is what usually people say when they have their like button pressed on pages like "informazione libera" or "cose che i giornali non ti diranno(!1!)" which actually are the main convey of false or not well reported information(and Grillo itself owns a couple of those pages)
2+2 pls, as a fellow Vitabro I like you, so don't tell me you're one of those guys
edit: for instance, yesterday tons of those pages spreaded one more(the last one?) stream of fud against Renzi about the fact that he voted without his ID card. "his vote is not legit!11" except it is, as the president of the polling station can let you vote if he identifies you, even if you don't bring an ID card with you.
Sickboy007
Member
Let's not forget all of the insane stuff around erasable pencils and tampering with the overseas vote. If by some miracle yes had won it's quite possible the losing side wouldn't have accepted the results.
We're talking about M5S here. Even if Grillo said they don't believe that things, let's not forget they actively push that agenda with all their crap clickbait websites.
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