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Italian Constitutional Referendum 2016 - Renxit

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Italy has too many regionlistist nut jobs for YES to have been successful.

Heck, the country as a boot is still relatively young. Too many butt hurt regionalists
 

KingSnake

The Birthday Skeleton
Summary from the Guardian about what's going to happen next:


Source: https://www.theguardian.com/world/l...endum-and-austrian-presidential-election-live

tl;dr: It's a mess, but a mess that is par for the course for Italian politics and thus not nearly on the level of Trump or Brexit.

I take anything British press say about EU with a lot of scepticism these days. Is Euroscepticism really clearly on the rise? Because the picture that I saw post-Brexit is a different one.
 

DevilFox

Member
Uhm, why?

Because he's a good journalist :) Travaglio did a stellar job even before he had a journal, especially for everything that had to do with mafia and corruption. Time proved him right countless times. To doubt his integrity is idiotic, if anything we need more people like him.

Our Constitution won't be reformed, Renzi's going home and somebody else (from his party) is going to replace him. Worst case scenario, we're going to vote for another Parliament.
That's it.

That's it indeed. This panic is hilarious.
 
I take anything British press say about EU with a lot of scepticism these days. Is Euroscepticism really clearly on the rise? Because the picture that I saw post-Brexit is a different one.

Well, the Guardian is decidedly pro-European and one of the few decent British newspapers, so they're mostly alright. And despite Brexit seemingly having a positive effect regarding pro-European sentiments in other EU states, I wouldn't dare saying that euroscepticism is already on the wane.
 

Frost_Ace

Member
Because he's a good journalist :) Travaglio did a stellar job even before he had a journal, especially for everything that had to do with mafia and corruption. Time proved him right countless times. To doubt his integrity is idiotic, if anything we need more people like him.



That's it indeed. This panic is hilarious.
He may be a bit harsh in his judgments but he's really anti-bullshit, and doesn't have a fixed side. I like him tbh.
 
This. There isn't a valid electoral law yet (the last one was ruled inconstitutional), after all.

As of today, the Italicum electoral law has not been ruled inconstitutional yet, but will be, and is only about the Camera. Formally the Senate has a valid law, the Consultellum, but it's not that good. So yeah, we're not to vote any time soon.
 
For good or for worse the referendum going to no is sort of expected..
There were some good points, but the confluence of power and the changes to the two chambers smelled like ass..

That being said, i'm now in a difficult position...
I'm a rightie, but unless someone else come, i can't in all honesty voti for Berlusconi or salvini...
The left isn't faring better either ..
And m5s has yet to be something more than a bunch of populistic naysayers, leading masses through the nose via the general dissatisfaction..

Sigh...
 
tumblr_mgbz725lSd1s2ks15o1_500.gif
 

Meadows

Banned
That feeling when you want the EU to be as strong as possible because you voted remain, but you also want to be able to afford a holiday to Europe in Jan...
 

Aureon

Please do not let me serve on a jury. I am actually a crazy person.
Sliding fast?
That last month:
f67aba2658.png

That spike is just above normal daily fluctuations.

For comparison, Brexit: (And i don't think i need to point out where that is in the graph:)
be2a9ba04b.jpg
 

sikkinixx

Member
I wonder if Renzi hadn't tied his political decision to the referendum if the outcome would be much different?

Referendums are fucking dumb. Too much emotion in them and millions of votes on *one* issue that inevitably seems to get pulled into all the regional bullshit that every country deals with is crazy.
 

KingBroly

Banned
I wonder if Renzi hadn't tied his political decision to the referendum if the outcome would be much different?

Referendums are fucking dumb. Too much emotion in them and millions of votes on *one* issue that inevitably seems to get pulled into all the regional bullshit that every country deals with is crazy.

He put all of his political capitol behind it. If he didn't go now after losing, he'd be hurting the rest of his party later.

When the Republicans lost the House and Senate in 2006, Bush had Rumsfeld resign the next day like an idiot instead of doing it a month earlier. May not have changed things, but still moronic.
 
For good or for worse the referendum going to no is sort of expected..
There were some good points, but the confluence of power and the changes to the two chambers smelled like ass..

That being said, i'm now in a difficult position...
I'm a rightie, but unless someone else come, i can't in all honesty voti for Berlusconi or salvini...
The left isn't faring better either ..
And m5s has yet to be something more than a bunch of populistic naysayers, leading masses through the nose via the general dissatisfaction..

Sigh...
Flavio Tosi man. I know "Fare" isn't a big party, but still.
 

G.ZZZ

Member
The south voted en masse for the NO, as i expected, while the si won in most of the north and in Tuscany.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
That feeling when you want the EU to be as strong as possible because you voted remain, but you also want to be able to afford a holiday to Europe in Jan...

Champagne socialism at its finest.
 

patapuf

Member
I don't follow italian politics enough.

Was Renzi not well liked?

Are there decent replacements in his party?

Concerns of various regions of loosing too much power makes sense though. That's something that'd be hard to pass in a lot of European countries.
 

oti

Banned
That feeling when you want the EU to be as strong as possible because you voted remain, but you also want to be able to afford a holiday to Europe in Jan...

Excuse me, now with the UK out of the picture German will be the main language of the Union. Please remove "That feeling" and use "Das Fühl" instead. Vielen Dank.
 

norinrad

Member
Champagne socialism at its finest.

lol.

Anyway I want Juncker gone. He's not an effective communicator and only rubs most EU citizens in the wrong way. Remove Tusk too.

Shame Renzi lost. Italy needs serious reforms to avoid a Greek like scenario that could harm us all due to the size of their economy.
 

oti

Banned
lol.

Anyway I want Juncker gone. He's not an effective communicator and only rubs most EU citizens in the wrong way. Remove Tusk too.

Shame Renzi lost. Italy needs serious reforms to avoid a Greek like scenario that could harm us all due to the size of their economy.

So you want Juncker gone because he "rubs ""most"" people the wrong way"? That's like saying you don't like Hillary because you just don't.

And what's your gripe with Tusk?
 

im_dany

Member
I don't follow italian politics enough.

Was Renzi not well liked?

Are there decent replacements in his party?

Concerns of various regions of loosing too much power makes sense though. That's something that'd be hard to pass in a lot of European countries.

Italian PM is never liked. During his resignation speech tonight, he made a list of the achievements of his government during those two years (which is the fourth longest govern we've ever had since we've been a republic) and even I didn't remember most of them. Why? Because we love to spread hate on every politician instead of having actual debates.

In his party? Nobody. Letta was chosen in 2013 because he was a good name for both the left and the right, but couldn't achieve almost anything. Renzi stepped up and managed to "steal" a few senators from Berlusconi (Alfano and his group) and together they made something but not enough (for example, the "civil union" law was severely cut because of Alfano, they refused for example to vote a law that allowed gay couples to have adoption or something like that). Most of this constitutional reform was voted by everyone in the parliament except for Lega Nord (which are dumb-right) and M5S (which, before 2013 elections were "no alliances, we vote depending on the law" and then became "fuck you PD we'll always vote no"). Berlusconi himself voted yes for all the SIX times it passed in the Senate. Part of PD undermined the reform because "hurr durr peoplez should elect senators". Which is something we haven't done since 1994, because in the south they used to literally sell their vote to corrupt members of the various mafia.
After Renzi there's noone else good enough in PD (which says something about PD and italian politics in general). They'll probably choose someone superpartes to have a new electional law, then go to elections and still have nothing accomplished because the results will be almost like 4 years earlier (30% PD, 30% M5S, 20% right IMHO).

We italians love to say "we have to change!" but when the time comes we say "maybe next time!".

And I don't even like Renzi that much, but he's the only credible politic right now in Italy.

Flavio Tosi man. I know "Fare" isn't a big party, but still.
I liked them in 2013, but they need to do something more if they want to get atleast a few seats in the parliament.

Wait, wasn't the turnout much greater in the north/center?
Turnout
referendum-costituzionale-4-grafici-orig_main.jpg


"SI" only won in Trentino (53,87%), Emilia-Romagna (50,39%) and Toscana (52,51%). "NO" was close and sometimes even higher than 70% in the south.
 

YourMaster

Member
lol.

Anyway I want Juncker gone. He's not an effective communicator and only rubs most EU citizens in the wrong way. Remove Tusk too.

Shame Renzi lost. Italy needs serious reforms to avoid a Greek like scenario that could harm us all due to the size of their economy.

Serious reforms sure, but aren't bad reforms worse than no reforms at all? And between making the senate a corruption magnet and parliament poised to create a strongman with near absolute power that isn't even supported by a democratic majority it seems Italy dodged a bullet.

It's a bit of a shame really that this happened. I'm not an Italian, but I am a stern supporter of parliamentary system. Even if there would have been more power in the hands of the prime minister, if anything it would have made the politics clearer and engagement in politics simpler. In a system with two equally powerful actors, things easily get muddled and very faceless.

Sure, the senate needs reform. But can you truly call it a parliamentary system when you gift a single party the majority of the seats even when not earned by a long shot?
That in my view has a huge risk in creating massive political upheaval and instability(and talking about Italy, that's saying something) and it might eventually even lead to some kind of horrible two-party system which is profoundly anti-democratic everywhere.
 

Jasup

Member
It's a bit of a shame really that this happened. I'm not an Italian, but I am a stern supporter of parliamentary system. Even if there would have been more power in the hands of the prime minister, if anything it would have made the politics clearer and engagement in politics simpler. In a system with two equally powerful actors, things easily get muddled and very faceless.

This is analogous to the EU, which needs the approval of both the European Parliament and the European Council to adopt legislation. It results in serious deadlocks (see migrant quotas) and can really emphasize the notion that the EU is incapable of tackling problems. Those who see the inner workings of this political hydra can assess where the problems in the process are, but for most it's just the EU as a whole that's broken - which isn't very reassuring if you want people to have confidence in the system.
 

im_dany

Member
Serious reforms sure, but aren't bad reforms worse than no reforms at all? And between making the senate a corruption magnet and parliament poised to create a strongman with near absolute power that isn't even supported by a democratic majority it seems Italy dodged a bullet.
Why are you against a PM that can do what he want? We're not talking about a dictatorship like Grillo and similar crazy people said, we're talking about giving power to the party that wins elections. Why can't we become a normal country where elections count, instead of having "inciuci" (italian for "completely absurd compromises between left and right) that stops any serious reform from happening?

So no need to panic about EU going under ?

Unless we go full batshit crazy and manage to get out of the EU (spoiler:
won't happen
), then no.
Risks of Italy going under? Plenty.
 

Xando

Member
So no need to panic about EU going under ?
Not yet. Wait until the french elections
Unless we go full batshit crazy and manage to get out of the EU (spoiler:
won't happen
), then no.
Risks of Italy going under? Plenty.
Problem is if Italy goes under so is the EZ. Compared to italys economy Greece is a joke (sorry greeks).
Not even Germany will be able to bailout italy
 

im_dany

Member
Not yet. Wait until the french elections

Problem is if Italy goes under so is the EZ. Compared to italys economy Greece is a joke (sorry greeks).
Not even Germany will be able to bailout italy

Italy goes under -> the Euro is done

Euro needs to be fixed regardless of how Italy goes, it's a broken system that has punished mediterranean countries too much (we also have our faults though). If anything, we would make the "collapse" faster, but it will happen anyway.

Our parties are not smart enough to understand that doing coalitions like every other european country is better than fighting anyway against the enemy at all costs, even if that would hurt us more (see: M5S). Do you see Salvini or Grillo working with Renzi to fix our country? Hell no. Do we need it to finally get out of both the economical and migrants crysis? Hell yes.

And the voters are also part of the problem. We've had "fake news" long before USA discovered them. There's plenty of people that believe we vote for the PM and not the parliament, and anti-UE parties love to push that agenda for their own gain. When someone tells you "we didn't vote for Renzi!!!" then you may aswell stop talking with him.
 

eso76

Member
I don't follow italian politics enough.

Was Renzi not well liked?

Are there decent replacements in his party?

Concerns of various regions of loosing too much power makes sense though. That's something that'd be hard to pass in a lot of European countries.

No one is well liked in italy.
People vote one side, expect things to magically get better for everyone overnight, when it doesn't happen they're disappointed, and will vote for the other side.
Repeat.

Just so you know, President Mattarella could refuse Renzi's resignation.

has this ever happened though ?
 

cyberheater

PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 Xbone PS4 PS4
So no need to panic about EU going under ?

They (Neogaf poligaf "experts") said that Brexit was never going to happen. They also said that there was no way that Trump would be the next president.

Guess what.

To answer your question. Yes the EU could go under.
 

UrbanRats

Member
Italian PM is never liked.

This is the core issue, we'll keep flip flopping right to left, left to right forever, until some major cultural shift happens, and we start realizing that there is no maical PM that will cancel out debts, reduce our taxes, send away all the pesky immigrants (and somehow stop North Africa from being there, i guess) all the while creating jobs, ending corruption (unless we're benefitting from it, that is) and giving all power to the regions to do as they please, without taking any more money from the EU, of course.
But wait, also without eroding education, healthcare, infrastructures and so on and so forth!

Then again i remember people legit complaining about Prodi being "too boring" and "putting them to sleep", so maybe this magical PM should also be a wise cracker handsome daredevil.

Personally i see the only saving grace for Italy as some country like Germany inventing some invasion of the body snatcher device, and take control of everyone for 5 years.
 

2+2=5

The Amiga Brotherhood
Let's not forget that:

1)Renzi was not elected, he was supposed to do a temporary government for some necessary laws(it was the forth consecutive imposed governement not elected by people)

2)when he had a high consens Renzi personalized the referendum saying that if he losed the referendum he would have left.

3)i will probably get some hate for this but honestly in Italy(but not only in Italy) democracy is only a sort of elected dictatorship, while the government can impose its will it remains, when he cannot impose its will anymore it's forced to leave and another government is elected or imposed. In my idea of democracy politicians discuss and build laws in the parliament and referendums don't have political value, instead each party does laws in their offices and then try to impose them in the parliament, but obviously only the majority party can succeed and if it can't then buys some votes or ask for the vote of confidence or whatever.

We'll have a hard time but i really hope that in a way or another we'll get a good government.
 

YourMaster

Member
Why are you against a PM that can do what he want? We're not talking about a dictatorship like Grillo and similar crazy people said, we're talking about giving power to the party that wins elections. Why can't we become a normal country where elections count, instead of having "inciuci" (italian for "completely absurd compromises between left and right) that stops any serious reform from happening?

It's not about having 'a' PM that can do whatever he wants, its about a PM which doesn't have the support of the majority of the people that can do whatever he wants.
I'm not saying Italy doesn't need reform, but I am saying what was on the table now was truly horrible.

Sure, get rid of a lot of the power of the senate, massively reduce the number of seats in parliament and make sure NOBODY is immune from prosecution. Hell, if more is needed try a French-style president or Swiss style direct democracy. But never do stuff like electoral thresholds or majority bonuses.

Many European countries have parliaments without such strongman regulations where reforms are not problematic. France consolidates a lot of power in their president but still the struggle with reforms.
This shows that openness to change and political reform comes in large part from the mentality of the population, more so than the electoral system.
 

KingSnake

The Birthday Skeleton
Yes the EU could go under.

This is mostly a British wet dream very much entertained by the British press. You need to stop fantasising about other countries and start working on your own mess.

Yes, Brexit happened and Trump happened, but that's a superficial look at the world. That's also mostly because the press in both countries is a (sad) joke since long time already and there is some alternate post-apocalyptic reality in which a lot of people live.

Austria, who was the most likely to get an extremist president didn't. Mostly thanks to Brexit who showed what voting without thinking about consequences brings. For Italy there is no realistic scenario in which Italy will get out of EU, even if there are early elections. France won't have a Le Pen president.

The only danger here is the economic disaster in Italy due to instability. In which case EU won't even matter that much, given the implications for the world economy. But on the other hand political instability is the normal situation in Italy since after the war. Most probably tomorrow there will be a new PM and things will be back to normal.
 
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