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[RJT]

At what point do we put our collective hands up and state that debt based capitalism has failed. Let it all fail. Start again with not for profit social banks and stop this madness.

I agree. No country should be allowed to run a deficit for more than 2 years in a row.

 

[Rourkey]

so socialism is a great form of government... until you run out of other peoples money?

can't they just break up... and the individual nations print their own money? I know it's a bad-aid and would make it worthless but it'll bail themselves out.

yer when socialism runs out of money its capitalism fault!!

Its socialist policies that ran up these trillion euro debts afterall.

 

[RJT]

so socialism is a great form of government... until you run out of other peoples money?

can't they just break up... and the individual nations print their own money? I know it's a bad-aid and would make it worthless but it'll bail themselves out.

The debt is issued in Euros, so only the ECB could print money to solve the problem. But that socializes the losses by generating inflation. Which is one way to solve the issue, without a question.

 

[Ushojax]

You're giving both politicians and businessmen too much credit. When most economists and financial experts were surprised by the collapse, you can't expect politicians and businessmen to have had any idea what was going to happen.

Anybody with a brain could have seen the financial shitstorm that was coming if the system had been suitably transparent. But sadly corporations and governments were busy cooking the books, fiddling the figures and engaging in all kinds of deceitful and reckless tactics to keep the boom going.

 

[zomgbbqftw]

so socialism is a great form of government... until you run out of other peoples money?

can't they just break up... and the individual nations print their own money? I know it's a bad-aid and would make it worthless but it'll bail themselves out.

That's not a fair view. European socialism is based on other people's money, but Scandinavian socialism works pretty well. They take almost 50% of GDP in tax and spend the same amount and their economies never really have too much trouble.

 

[Meadows]

Well, the Eurozone failed to act in time and they're reaping the consequences of that. Gutted that they'll be bringing us down with them when we had the fucking sense to stay away in the first place.

 

[Rourkey]

The debt is issued in Euros, so only the ECB could print money to solve the problem. But that socializes the losses by generating inflation. Which is one way to solve the issue, without a question.

I completely see Germany's point, if they simply print money it just encourages Greece and Italy to carry on as before.

A line has to be drawn somewhere.

 

[aronnov reborn]

The debt is issued in Euros, so only the ECB could print money to solve the problem. But that socializes the losses by generating inflation. Which is one way to solve the issue, without a question.

yeah worldwide panic incoming then... this should be fun

 

[RJT]

yer when socialism runs out of money its capitalism fault. Its socialist policies that ran up these trillion euro debts afterall.

Let's not be so close minded here... I'd say that bailing out banks and allowing tax havens to exist are as much to blame for the situation as the socialist policies.

 

[Kayo-kun]

So happy Turkey never managed to/probably never will join the EU. All these news about the EU economy seems like a nightmare that only gets worse and worse.

 

[RJT]

I completely see Germany's point, if they simply print money it just encourages Greece and Italy to carry on as before.

A line has to be drawn somewhere.

As do I. But we either get proper (and democratic) European institution out of this mess, or the Euro (and in the long term, EU itself) is over.

 

[jorma]

i'll live with a bailout using my money if:

a) we correctly identify who we really are bailing out, that means corrupt politicians and greedy bankers. not the people of greece and italy.

b) heads roll. I want to see people in jail. Not just the Madoff type scapegoats, but the fraudsters who now are serving as "advisors" and "consultants" to government agencies and are given the means to write legislation that elected politicians just sign. I want satisfaction goddamnit.

c) legislative action is taken to ensure we wont just be back to normal again in a few years, bailing out new fucktards who are too big to fail.

If this does not happen we might as well let everything crash and burn now.

 

[i_am_ben]

wasn't it supposed to be Portugal, Spain then Italy?

how did Italy leap frog the others? was it just down to Spain and Portugal's austerity programs reassuring the market?

 

[industrian]

If this does not happen we might as well let everything crash and burn now.

It's getting to the point where I'd actually prefer this course of action.

Yeah, I'm an eternal optimist.

 

[Kabouter]

wasn't it supposed to be Portugal, Spain then Italy?

how did Italy leap frog the others? was it just down to Spain and Portugal's austerity programs reassuring the market?

Portugal was bailed out, the yields on Portuguese bonds are still higher than on Italian bonds. As far as Spain goes, I guess investors have more confidence in Spanish politicians to do what needs to be done than they do in Italian politicians.

 

[Deleted member 1235]

i'll live with a bailout using my money if:

a) we correctly identify who we really are bailing out, that means corrupt politicians and greedy bankers. not the people of greece and italy.

b) heads roll. I want to see people in jail. Not just the Madoff type scapegoats, but the fraudsters who now are serving as "advisors" and "consultants" to government agencies and are given the means to write legislation that elected politicians just sign. I want satisfaction goddamnit.

c) legislative action is taken to ensure we wont just be back to normal again in a few years, bailing out new fucktards who are too big to fail.

If this does not happen we might as well let everything crash and burn now.

this. this right here. Fucking arrest some fat bastards and throw them in the rape jail. I'm sick of this shit and it hasn't even affected my quality of life hardly at all, but the fear well... scares me.

 

[jaxword]

Anybody with a brain could have seen the financial shitstorm that was coming if the system had been suitably transparent. But sadly corporations and governments were busy cooking the books, fiddling the figures and engaging in all kinds of deceitful and reckless tactics to keep the boom going.

As the last 10 years have shown, those at the top will never, ever, EVER be held accountable for their actions.

People are just unrepentant assholes and there's no justice or morality in the world.

 

[Furoba]

i'll live with a bailout using my money if:

a) we correctly identify who we really are bailing out, that means corrupt politicians and greedy bankers. not the people of greece and italy.

b) heads roll. I want to see people in jail. Not just the Madoff type scapegoats, but the fraudsters who now are serving as "advisors" and "consultants" to government agencies and are given the means to write legislation that elected politicians just sign. I want satisfaction goddamnit.

c) legislative action is taken to ensure we wont just be back to normal again in a few years, bailing out new fucktards who are too big to fail.

If this does not happen we might as well let everything crash and burn now.

Too bad most law isn't retroactive. Even if you made the kind of 'advisor/consultant business' illegal, you wouldn't be able prosecute. Unless of course you'd go French Revolution style on them.

 

[ThoseDeafMutes]

Portugal was bailed out, the yields on Portuguese bonds are still higher than on Italian bonds. As far as Spain goes, I guess investors have more confidence in Spanish politicians to do what needs to be done than they do in Italian politicians.

I have more faith in Mecha-Hitler than I do in Italian politicians, so this is understandable.

 

[Meadows]

It's getting to the point where I'd actually prefer this course of action.

Yeah, I'm an eternal optimist.

You lucky fucker in Taiwan, global isolation has meant they're self-sufficient (apart from some trade with China, who I think we all know are doing pretty well)

 

[Ushojax]

i'll live with a bailout using my money if:

a) we correctly identify who we really are bailing out, that means corrupt politicians and greedy bankers. not the people of greece and italy.

b) heads roll. I want to see people in jail. Not just the Madoff type scapegoats, but the fraudsters who now are serving as "advisors" and "consultants" to government agencies and are given the means to write legislation that elected politicians just sign. I want satisfaction goddamnit.

c) legislative action is taken to ensure we wont just be back to normal again in a few years, bailing out new fucktards who are too big to fail.

If this does not happen we might as well let everything crash and burn now.

None of it happened the last time. I suppose the destruction of an entire currency might make things different this time but I don't really see how we're going to get any real accountability. It's not enough to simply resign or retire with a golden handshake. The people who are responsible deserve to be put in prison and the system that they fostered needs to be torn down, but we are talking about entire governments, political parties and corporate boards being culled. It's not going to happen.

 

[Adam Blade]

Out of curiosity, has Sir Fragula posted recently?

 

[Withnail]

Great article on the situation here.

We seem to be fast approaching the point where Germany has to choose: either order the ECB to ignore its mandate and buy Italian bonds with enthusiasm by printing euros; or make plans to break up the single currency.

 

[[Nintex]]

As do I. But we either get proper (and democratic) European institution out of this mess, or the Euro (and in the long term, EU itself) is over.

The Euro is the biggest problem, some german economists and businesses have already stated that an end of the Euro is not a disaster if the free market remains. We drop the Euro, the Italians, Spanish and Greeks can devalue their currency and grow themselves out of this mess and this shit is sorted out. That seems to be the best solution for everyone if you ask me.

They tried the austerity and bail-out route with Greece and it didn't work so now other measures should be taken. It might even be possible for the Northern States like Germany and the Netherlands to continue with their own 'strong' Euro.

 

[fortified_concept]

yer when socialism runs out of money its capitalism fault!!

Its socialist policies that ran up these trillion euro debts afterall.

Yeah, why do we heal our sick and take care of our poor, we should let these fuckers die in a ditch to keep paying the bankers while we're working like slaves to pay our never-ending debts.

 

[aronnov reborn]

cut social spending and raise taxes on everyone.. bam done.

 

[RJT]

Portugal was bailed out, the yields on Portuguese bonds are still higher than on Italian bonds. As far as Spain goes, I guess investors have more confidence in Spanish politicians to do what needs to be done than they do in Italian politicians.

This. Portuguese bonds trade at ~15% these days. I'm considering buying some that mature in 2012, as I do believe that we can get our shit together and the IMF bailout program ends in 2013.

But I'm afraid of haircuts, so maybe not...

 

[defel]

Eurozone leaders need to embrace a break up of the Euro. It is inevitable so ultimately its better off to accept it and have an orderly break up rather than having EZ economies drop like flies. I still think that the peripheral economies should adopt a second tier euro currency. This will allow them to devalue, give them time to restructure their economies with a view to rejoining the Euro Core currency at some point in the future. At least that way the politicians can hedge their bets and let the Euro break up implicitly while arguing that the Euro as a currency has survived.

 

[jorma]

Too bad most law isn't retroactive. Even if you made the kind of 'advisor/consultant business' illegal, you wouldn't be able prosecute. Unless of course you'd go French Revolution style on them.

I'm pretty sure they could dig up actual criminal charges that need no retroactive legislation on these people, if the will was there.

If not, then no deal. Just like those banksters i want a return on my investment, and them going to jail is a big part of that return.

None of it happened the last time. I suppose the destruction of an entire currency might make things different this time but I don't really see how we're going to get any real accountability. It's not enough to simply resign or retire with a golden handshake. The people who are responsible deserve to be put in prison and the system that they fostered needs to be torn down, but we are talking about entire governments, political parties and corporate boards being culled. It's not going to happen.

Yeah, i know. It's a fantasy from my end. :/

 

[RJT]

The Euro is the biggest problem, some german economists and businesses have already stated that an end of the Euro is not a disaster if the free market remains. We drop the Euro, the Italians, Spanish and Greeks can devalue their currency and grow themselves out of this mess and this shit is sorted out. That seems to be the best solution for everyone if you ask me.

They tried the austerity and bail-out route with Greece and it didn't work so now other measures should be taken. It might even be possible for the Northern States like Germany and the Netherlands to continue with their own 'strong' Euro.

Well, I would prefer a proper European Union. As an educated and employed Portuguese citizen, dropping the Euro means that I will get instantly poorer (due to a weak Escudo). "Growing out of this mess" sounds good, but the reality is that you start by devaluing overnight everybody's wages, and only then can you grow.

 

[industrian]

You lucky fucker in Taiwan, global isolation has meant they're self-sufficient (apart from some trade with China, who I think we all know are doing pretty well)

If the Euro collapses it'll cause a ripple effect throughout manufacturing, tech, and every other industry. Most Taiwanese companies should be able to survive, but if the Dollar collapses then we're all pretty much fucked.

Worst case scenario I offer my services as a "Yingwen ma? Work for food, meiyo jhongwen" farm hand. Considering my build I'm sure I could be a pretty valuable serf.

Spoiler

Truthfully: I was planning on coming home for good next year and starting my own business (I'll have a decent cut saved up by next summer) but if the Euro collapses then fuck that.

 

[seanoff]

the Euro was a nice idea but not well thought out.

The germans are a powerful, well managed economy. some of the others in the Euro zone, yeah, not so much.

the germans and maybe some of the northern euro nations, need to cut and run. the italians, greeks, spanish, irish etc need to have their own currency that can be appropriately priced to allow them to function.

 

[Vagabundo]

Someone on the Radio was saying that the ECB could not start printing money without a raft of treaty changes..

I think we will start to see countries leaving the Euro soon.

 

[Bento]

That's not a fair view. European socialism is based on other people's money, but Scandinavian socialism works pretty well. They take almost 50% of GDP in tax and spend the same amount and their economies never really have too much trouble.

I think the Scandinavian countries are in for a nasty surprise when the hammer comes falling down on the Euro and our export goes down the toilet (unemployment goes up), dat massive private debt is going to break our neck and the right has no one to blame but itself for being to passive and not dealing with it. Unfortunately there's no credible opposition from left or right so once they're gone it's going to be a rough ride ahead.

 

[zomgbbqftw]

Out of curiosity, has Sir Fragula posted recently?

I do wonder where Fragula is...

 

[Acidote]

Heh. I've got the same "problem". I don't want my saving to go up in smoke when the Euro hits rock bottom.

We're in the same boat buddies

Edit: I've been saving for years for a place of my own and I have a serious bunch of cash sitting on my bank. I honestly don't know if I should change it to a different currency.

I've saved around the third of the cost for a place of my own and now I'm terrified I'm only saving worthless papers.

 

[radioheadrule83]

yer when socialism runs out of money its capitalism fault!!

Its socialist policies that ran up these trillion euro debts afterall.

Its not so much the debt that's the problem, Euro states have ceded control of important functions to Europe that engender situations like this - where they can't devalue their own currency, and markets do a run on them, shifting money to other bonds when the going gets tough. This BBC article draws the analogy of a boat that has taken on water on one side, and begins to experience the 'free-surface' effect, listing more and more until it capsizes. There is no function to protect countries like Greece and Italy, or to protect the wider Euro from those countries -- the ECB isn't quite functioning as a Federalist bank would in the United States, it is reliant on the whim of countries like Germany -- and at the moment there are too many conflicting interests in this to get a quick and efficient decision made before these 'boats' list too far and start to sink...

The Euro experiment needs a serious rethink if it is to continue, imo.

I feel sorry for the countries being maligned by this whole affair tbh. Electorates are being overlooked and are taking on generational burdens because of what is going on right now... take a read of this one: 'The emergence of the Frankfurt Group has turned back the Democratic clock' -- it really puts into perspective how damaging the Euro has been to state economies and democracy.

Europe needs to either go full-retard on Federalisation, give things like this up, or build in the necessary safeguards and mechanisms to exit.

 

[Meadows]

I do wonder where Fragula is...

fighting the "man"

 

[onken]

On the plus side it made Berlusconi resign.

 

[[Nintex]]

Well, I would prefer a proper European Union. As an educated and employed Portuguese citizen, dropping the Euro means that I will get instantly poorer (due to a weak Escudo). "Growing out of this mess" sounds good, but the reality is that you start by devaluing overnight everybody's wages, and only then can you grow.

I think 'growing' will take a good 5/10 maybe 20 years for sure but the other outcome? I've seen graphs, Italy would be stuck on bail out money well untill 2040. The Greeks are expected to be fucked untill 2025. I think taking matters into your own hands is better than having both the IMF and EU dictate what should be done next. Not to mention that there's still some wealth in Europe left and selling government assets, implementing more austerity and other measures would hurt countries like Spain, Portugal and Italy a lot more than leaving the Euro.

 

[Kabouter]

I've saved around the third of the cost for a place of my own and now I'm terrified I'm only saving worthless papers.

Same. Really worried about my savings, which are all in euro. I mean, my bank is safe enough, but other than that...
Any tips for us lot zomg?

 

[industrian]

I've saved around the third of the cost for a place of my own and now I'm terrified I'm only saving worthless papers.

I was in debt from Summer 2003 until around January this year. This whole "fearing for savings" shit is new to me.

 

[ThoseDeafMutes]

Same. Really worried about my savings, which are all in euro. I mean, my bank is safe enough, but other than that...
Any tips for us lot zomg?

Switch your savings to Ducats.

 

[fortified_concept]

cut social spending and raise taxes on everyone.. bam done.

It is what happened in Greece which brought absolute devastation throughout the country and skyrocketed the debt. By cutting social spending and rising taxes people become poorer and poor people don't buy anything. That reduction brings reduction in tax revenue, social unrest and very poor market liquidity. It's a recipe for disaster.

 

[Meadows]

invest in underwear. people always need underwear

 

[Funky Papa]

Well, I would prefer a proper European Union. As an educated and employed Portuguese citizen, dropping the Euro means that I will get instantly poorer (due to a weak Escudo). "Growing out of this mess" sounds good, but the reality is that you start by devaluing overnight everybody's wages, and only then can you grow.

Time to do the right thing and create an Iberian Federation to reclaim the seas.

Spoiler

I may or may not be joking.

 

[Bento]

Time to do the right thing and create an Iberian Federation to reclaim the seas.

Spoiler

I may or may not be joking.

That's an awesome name, sounds like something out of Dune

 

[ThoseDeafMutes]

That's an awesome name, sounds like something out of Dune

The future is the past!

 

[Meadows]

So like...when the Euro goes...what happens? There isn't a common ideology or movement anymore, the Eastern European countries are just left to themselves. Wonder if we'll see another rise in communism or something, or maybe war in Europe. Hmm, interesting times ahead.

 

[zomgbbqftw]

Same. Really worried about my savings, which are all in euro. I mean, my bank is safe enough, but other than that...
Any tips for us lot zomg?

It depends on the types of returns you need, but I have around £150,000 of my own money invested in AAA/AA rated sovereign debt because I don't know where else to put it. I also excluded France from my basket, so basically it is US, UK, Sweden, Germany, Switzerland and Denmark. I have had about 8% an return this year so it's doing pretty well as people pile into super safe investments.

Look into unit trusts (or a Dutch equivalent) that specialise in super safe sovereign debt. Try and exclude France from your basket as their underlying strength is extremely questionable.