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[Lord Error]

Ourumov, SH2 disn't have self shadowing on it's character models. SH3 does, so in that way it has even better shadowing.

Im I crazy if I think Silent Hill 4 looks worse than 3?

You are not crazy. It really does. Probably for the much less inspired artwork and effects used (this is where SH3 really shone)

 

[ourumov]

Im I crazy if I think Silent Hill 4 looks worse than 3?

Today (5 minutes ago to be exact) I was playing the demo of Silent Hill 4. And my dissapointment with it couldn't be worse.

-The texturing job seems totally unbalanced. There are HORRIBLE textures in the game that simply look awful in comparisson to others which are SH2/3 quality.

-The Enemies don't cast Shadows Always. Sh2/3 was famous for it's cool shadowing effect...I still remember seeing big shadows moving across the walls/roof before seeing the real enemy...From what I saw that's gone.

-Some models look BAD (out of place). For instance Cynthia. It's like if they had hired Namco to model it...It doesn't have that Silent Hill feel...

-The animations aren't as good for enemies as they were on SH2/3...They seem simpler and not so strange and awesome .


Anyways, I played it only for an hour but that's what I saw. Before anyone jumps saying I didn't play it enough, I want to say that perhaps it's true...but that doesn't change what I saw.

People still says that Silent Hill 3 wasn't ported to XBOX because they hadn't previously received SH1...Let me doubt that.
It wouldn't have been easy to port it to XBOX. (then again remember what kind of PC does it need to run flawlessly)

 

[Gattsu25]

The animations aren't as good for enemies as they were on SH2/3...They seem simpler and not so strange and awesome

Silent Hill 2 and 3 felt like a Jacob's Ladder game while Silent Hill 4 reminded me of Ringu






Jacob's Ladder >>>> Ringu

 

[JJConrad]

First, a steady 30 fps is better than shakey 60.

Second, wasn't this topic about overall visual package, not whohasmoregeometry. SMS excels best has its special effects (especially the water), while its IQ is better than that of JakII, its texture are a bit stronger, and even its geometry is no slouch. There's a lot to more graphics than pushing a lot of polygons. Super Mario Sunshine is very comparible to JakII in overall visuals.

I hope when you try and argue this, you do it with more experience with the game than when you claimed that couldn't see any differences between the PS2 and Gamecube versions of Viewtiful Joe.

 

[Gattsu25]

I hope when you try and argue this, you do it with more experience with the game than when you claimed that couldn't see any differences between the PS2 and Gamecube versions of Viewtiful Joe.

nice way of using schoolyard insults to bring hostility into a peaceful thread ¬_¬

 

[Lord Error]

First, a steady 30 fps is better than shakey 60.

Not if the 'shakey' means that it shakes during the very small amount of gameplay time. Besides, when it comes to games like this where the controls are imperative, 60FPS really helps, even if it sometimes drops to 50 or 45, which is what effectively happens in Jak 2 during it's tearing moments. The responsiveness is just much better. On a technical side of things, 2X framerate meas 2X the polygon count per second, which is also something to consider when judging geometry complaxity.

while its IQ is better than that of JakII

Not really. Jak 2 runs in progressive scan, much like SMS (I assume) does. It also supports wide screen, which I'm not sure if Mario does.

There's a lot to more graphics than pushing a lot of polygons. Super Mario Sunshine is very comparible to JakII in overall visuals.

And there is a lot more to the overal package than just graphics specs alone. I already mentioned the things where Jak 2 *really* excells - the unified streaming world (easily worth a texture donwgrade, IMO, as they have to bestreamed all the time) and the animation, which is simply unmatched among the cartoony looking games, and geometry complexity, which is also hardly matched in games of it's kind.

Mario is a nice looking game, but technically it just doesn't really compare in most aspects, except for that water, where it fares a lot better. Seriusly, if you want to compare something, you are much better off with SFA. I have no idea why even bringing SMS into this when there's SFA as a much more obvious contender.

I hope when you try and argue this, you do it with more experience with the game than when you claimed that couldn't see any differences between the PS2 and Gamecube versions of Viewtiful Joe.

Yes I do. Besides, people with more experience than myself have reported that the visible difference in the VJ on GC and PS2 is the 'amount of blurriness in the zoom mode'. To me that doesn't sound like something worth calling me out on.

 

[Grubdog]

Super Mario Sunshine is my favourite game to look at, the sheer draw distance alone is enough to make me just walk/jump around in awe. While Jak II does look really good, I don't think it compares to games like Super Mario Sunshine, Wind Waker and SFA. Also, 1080 Avalanche is another very unappreciated title, graphically, it blew my mind how awesome it looks, mainly because I wasn't expecting much though.

And no water has touched the awesomeness of Wave Race: Blue Storms water yet.

 

[Speevy]

I'm a huge Nintendo fan, and Sunshine is just plain ugly from an artistic standpoint IMO. I like the game, love the water, and I thought many of the levels were very well-designed.


Paper Mario 2 on the other hand looks better artistically than just about any game I can think of.

Sunshine would look so much better if EAD had fixed the ugly green textures on the hillsides. I think Sunshine was clearly rushed, which is evidenced by its abrupt ending. If Revolution launches with another Mario game, I'll wager that a lot of people will be surprised at how quickly Nintendo takes back the platformer crown from Naughty Dog and Insomniac.

 

[Azih]

Well what's the issue here? Is it Jak 2 vs Gamecube games or is it Ps2 vs Gamecube?

Becuase if it's the latter then the only question that needs to be asked is 'can Jak 2 be done on Gamecube without downgrading the graphics?'.

 

[Speevy]

Well what's the issue here? Is it Jak 2 vs Gamecube games or is it Ps2 vs Gamecube?

Becuase if it's the latter then the only question that needs to be asked is 'can Jak 2 be done on Gamecube without downgrading the graphics?'.

The former. It's obvious that if you take every PS2 game into consideration, the PS2 has been used to greater results.

It's strictly Jak 2 vs. the best the Cube has to offer.

 

[SpoonyBard]

While Jak 2 looks great, I think Rebel Strike looks better than any PS2 game. Even ZOE2, which I think is the most impressive PS2 game.

 

[drohne]

there are gamecube games that look as good or better, but i can't think of anything that matches some of its technical achievements - the draw distance, the huge streaming environments, and the amount of action on screen are really impressive. and then there are parts that combine all three. terrific animation in the cutscenes too; some of the best i've seen in a videogame.

and jak II's a better game than any of the gamecube platformers. never thought i'd see the day when naughty dog would outclass nintendo.

 

[Warm Machine]

There is little on GC that compares to JAK. This is mostly due to the majority of GC games not streaming alot of their data. Instead most of it is loaded at once and doesn't drop out. SMS has pretty well the whole environment in memory at once which Jak can use tunnel style loading.

Metroid can pack a lot into their environments because of the room, tunnel, room, tunnel thing they do. Starfox is pretty well the best visual landmark. Starfox is also using many techniques that just are not possible in game on the PS2.

 

[Speevy]

and jak II's a better game than any of the gamecube platformers. never thought i'd see the day when naughty dog would outclass nintendo.

And aside from talking about platformers (EAD has only developed one, ND is on their 3rd) you never will.

 

[JJConrad]

I'm calling you out on Joe, not because I think you were grossly mistaken, but because you were so quick to proclaim "no differences" with the PS2 version, despite you're lack of experience with the GCN game. You had absolutely no basis for your claims (and you used yourself as the witness, not other people).

I would consider SMS to be a better example of the of the GCN abilities, than is SFA. SFA has great textures, but lacks everywhere else when compared to SMS. SFA has smaller, less active areas, but a with frame-rate problems. It may try to do more, but doesn't feature half the polish of SMS in doing them. The fur and grass looks good at times, but often looks ridiculous; the lighting and shadowing is poorly implemented; special effect regularly bleed over to objects that shouldn't be effect; and textures are poorly wrapped and often abruptly end. SMS is just a better package.

I'm not saying that SMS beats down JakII graphically; just that it is comparible. The two games have a lot in common graphically, in both basic look and in what they accomplish on screen. If you refuse to believe that, fine... I don't care if you choose to be wrong.
Beside, there are a number of games, on both platforms, that go beyond either, SMS, SFA, or JakII.

 

[Shompola]

"On a technical side of things, 2X framerate meas 2X the polygon count per second, which is also something to consider when judging geometry complaxity."

Ok.. but this isn't necessary true because complexity vs framerate isn't linear.

 

[dark10x]

First, a steady 30 fps is better than shakey 60.

Normally, yes, but Jak 2 holds 60 fps most of the time during gameplay. Slowdown mostly occurs in the city segments, and even then, it doesn't exactly go up and down a lot. Almost all regular gameplay segments are solid, though. It's better than straight 30 fps, I can tell you that.

 

[Ranger X]

there are gamecube games that look as good or better, but i can't think of anything that matches some of its technical achievements - the draw distance, the huge streaming environments, and the amount of action on screen are really impressive. and then there are parts that combine all three. terrific animation in the cutscenes too; some of the best i've seen in a videogame.

and jak II's a better game than any of the gamecube platformers. never thought i'd see the day when naughty dog would outclass nintendo.

IAWYP.

And guess what, if PS2 was able to do fur mapping, Jak2 would even shit all over SFA...

 

[Lord Error]

I'm calling you out on Joe, not because I think you were grossly mistaken, but because you were so quick to proclaim "no differences" with the PS2 version, despite you're lack of experience with the GCN game. You had absolutely no basis for your claims (and you used yourself as the witness, not other people).

Yeah, but I have put a clear disclaimer about what I have said, so you would know from the moment you've read it that I'm talking from the perspective of someone who has only played the game for a very short time, and doesn't remember it perfectly.

In this thread also, I have said that I have not really had a chance to see some of the games as much as I'd like to, or have not seen them at all. I have played SMS for quite a bit, and have not played SFA, but from the videos SFA looked a lot more impressive to me. SMS never really did it for me, I guess.

Beside, there are a number of games, on both platforms, that go beyond either, SMS, SFA, or JakII.

As I've said earlier in this thread, Jak 2 is not really my favorite looking game, but it's engine, from a purely technical standpoint, does things that very few (if any) other PS2 games do, and they've even improved some key aspects of it in Jak 3.

Ok.. but this isn't necessary true because complexity vs framerate isn't linear.

True, but we are talking about the game that already has very high geometry complexity. Runing at 60FPS makes it that much more impressive.

 

[AniHawk]

and jak II's a better game than any of the gamecube platformers

Fuck no.

 

[cvxfreak]

Fuck no.

I once again AWTP.

 

[SpoonyBard]

Me too.

 

[Sho Nuff]

I don't think any GC game comes close in terms of raw polygon count. I remember talking to one of the ND guys about the engine -- if my memory serves me, it could push about 500,000 polys per frame x 60fps = 30 million polys a second.

 

[clipunderground]

I don't think any GC game comes close in terms of raw polygon count. I remember talking to one of the ND guys about the engine -- if my memory serves me, it could push about 500,000 polys per frame x 60fps = 30 million polys a second.

Rebel Strike pushes more polygons then any current console game if my memory serves me correctly. Granted it wasn't rock solid 60fps but it's still extremely impressive on a technical standpoint.

 

[wazoo]

I don't think any GC game comes close in terms of raw polygon count. I remember talking to one of the ND guys about the engine -- if my memory serves me, it could push about 500,000 polys per frame x 60fps = 30 million polys a second.

PR. (The Rebelstrike quote is also PR).

Normally, yes, but Jak 2 holds 60 fps most of the time during gameplay. Slowdown mostly occurs in the city segments, and even then, it doesn't exactly go up and down a lot.

You have a better copy than me. Seriously, it does not drop all the time. Just every two second in the city, and every 10 sec in the gameplay segments. It qualifies for "most of the time stable" , but it is clearly distracting since you remember more easily every drop than all the surrounding smoothnes.

Not really. Jak 2 runs in progressive scan, much like SMS (I assume) does. It also supports wide screen, which I'm not sure if Mario does.

What widescreen has to do with IQ ?

As for progressive scan, I can not comment. On regular RGB TV, SMS has a better look than Jak2. Maybe it is due to the filtering or to the heat effect, which may soften the overall image. I do not know.

 

[Li Mu Bai]

All the sudden Jak II is the Holy Grail of PS2 software to compare GC titles to? SMS is a very comparable game to Jak II that doesn't utilize streaming to circumvent the system's relatively small memory foootprint. Btw Marco, you don't even own a GC correct? A GC game/platformer hasn't even attempted something on the size & scale of Jak II. But if it did, you don't think it could surpass Jak II technically? Get real, although relegated to segmented rooms, (some areas as well) Prime possessed more complex geometry than Jak II.

 

[Gattsu25]

You have a better copy than me. Seriously, it does not drop all the time. Just every two second in the city, and every 10 sec in the gameplay segments. It qualifies for "most of the time stable" , but it is clearly distracting since you remember more easily every drop than all the surrounding smoothnes.

No…you just have either a really shitty copy or hugely exaggerated memory (same reason I consider myself incapable of comparing SFA, my overall distaste exaggerated all the flaws)

 

[cybamerc]

Marconelly:

> Jak2 (well now that would be Jak3) is techncally probably the most accomplished PS2
> engine that I know of.

Joe Average is not capable of making such a call.

> SMS runs at 30FPS, and pushes WAY less geometry than Jak 2 . Let's not even bring it
> into this discussion

There's more to a graphics engine than just geometry and framerate. I haven't played Jak 2 but looking at the screens in this thread it's main accomplishment seems to be that it pushes a lot of polys. SMS may push less but at the same time it does things you don't see in Jak 2 (or any PS2 game for that matter). Now I'm not saying that SMS is more advanced technically but you and many others in this thread have much too narrow a focus when discussing the tech used in games. You're also overestimating what can be told from screenshots or even playing a game.



Warm Machine:

> There is little on GC that compares to JAK. This is mostly due to the majority of GC
> games not streaming alot of their data.

Streaming is hardly the only benchmark for an engine and besides you can't always tell just from playing a game if a game uses streaming or not and if so how advanced the streaming technology is. The Rogue Squadron games for GameCube use streaming aggressively and so does the Metroid games. You may not realize this just playing them. To compare the efforts you really need to know exactly what each game does and how levels are constructed. Metroid for example may have a lot of relatively small rooms but each room consists of many unique assets.



Wyzdom:

> And guess what, if PS2 was able to do fur mapping, Jak2 would even shit all over SFA...

PS2 can do fur "shading" easily. But I fail to see what it has to do with Jak 2. I mean, being able to do something doesn't mean that you're going to. And if they did something else would have have to give. Nice looking fur adds a lot of extra polys.

 

[Lazy8s]

Can't dismiss the streaming of Jak II; it's one of the great technical accomplishments that makes the game what it is. It's image quality does suffer comparatively though, as screen tearing is a trade-off of IQ for speed.

The Jak engine is most impressive for its handling of level-of-detail work. The game can seamlessly move to and from detailed city scenes bustling with liveliness everywhere as if there's no limit to what it can handle, when it's actually clever LOD for all of those models and layers of effects that keep the system doing far more realisitic workloads than many have suspected.

 

[wazoo]

No…you just have either a really shitty copy or hugely exaggerated memory (same reason I consider myself incapable of comparing SFA, my overall distaste exaggerated all the flaws)

No, I'm playing Jak2 right now (currently at 44%). So my memory is quite fresh. As I said, it does not change the framerate all the time (GE/PD style) but very often.

I have to add that the streaming in Jak2 is far more impressive than for example in Jak1. The city really adds something to the gameplay (I'vs seen so many time people dismissing this part of the game)

 

[Gattsu25]

No, I'm playing Jak2 right now (currently at 44%). So my memory is quite fresh.

Ok. Slowdown/tearing once every 2 seconds while in the city and every 10 seconds while not, correct?

You have a better copy than me. Seriously, it does not drop all the time. Just every two second in the city, and every 10 sec in the gameplay segments. It qualifies for "most of the time stable" , but it is clearly distracting since you remember more easily every drop than all the surrounding smoothnes.

Then it's just your copy that's really fucked up either that or your PS2



edit: 'driving' changed to 'in the city'

 

[SolidSnakex]

JAK2 is not "the pinnacle of PS2 power". I think Silent Hill 3 is.

 

[wazoo]

Ok. Slowdown/tearing once every 2 seconds while in the city and every 10 seconds while not, correct?

Then it's just your copy that's really fucked up either that or your PS2

Next time, I will stop playing and count You have too think that a drop every 10 sec is quite rare, if you think about it. It does not imply jerkiness all around the screen.

It is too bad, this game fell too close of perfection. I heard from Kikizo that Jak3 is also not perfect. They added even more geometry instead of fixing the framerate. Shame on you ND.

 

[Gattsu25]

actually, a consistant drop every 20 seconds would bug the hell out of me

 

[dark10x]

You're also overestimating what can be told from screenshots or even playing a game.

Come on, man, you do that all the time. Damn near every game that gets discussed turns out to be something you haven't played. I have played EVERY game in this thread and own all of them EXCEPT Ratchet and Clank 2 (but I've played through a lot of it). I did not mean to suggest that only geometry should be considered when discussing the quality of visuals.

Ok. Slowdown/tearing once every 2 seconds while in the city and every 10 seconds while not, correct?

That's a bit unfair. The vast majority of the outside missions rarely dropped a frame. Most slowdown was confined to the city portions of the game.

 

[cybamerc]

dark10x:

> Come on, man, you do that all the time.

I comment on the stuff that's on screen but not the stuff that's under the hood so to speak. Especially when comparing two different engines.

 

[cybercrash]

Prime possessed more complex geometry than Jak II.

Not at all, Prime has wonderful graphics but its geometry was very simple most of the time.

 

[dark10x]

Prime possessed more complex geometry than Jak II.

That's not true, Li. Prime does display complex geometric structures, but not quite to the level that Jak 2 does. I prefer the way Prime looks, that's for sure, but Jak 2 seems to draw more polys overall. Not only do you have a much larger field of view at times, there are also upwards of 20-30 individual characters running around the landscape as well. Prime is modelled in a very smart fashion, though.

Come on, though, so Marco doesn't own a GC...you don't own a PS2, do you?

 

[Broshnat]

Haha !! This is a funny thread

So what is the 1) Best-looking and 2) most technically accomplished game ever?

 

[Speevy]

Haha !! This is a funny thread

So what is the 1) Best-looking and 2) most technically accomplished game ever?

Cubivore.


It got an 8 for graphics on Gamespot.

 

[Broshnat]

Gamespot sucks

 

[Lord Error]

Joe Average is not capable of making such a call.

You don't have to take my word on it, go ask around if you want. I'm pretty confident that what I've said is true though. It's telling when you see that they added even perfect trilinear filtering (that alone is something very few PS2 games have) on top of everything else they are doing in their engine.

 

[ourumov]

Prime possessed more complex geometry than Jak II.

I always thought Metroid Prime was pretty low poly...

 

[wazoo]

It's telling when you see that they added even perfect trilinear filtering (that alone is something very few PS2 games have) on top of everything else they are doing in their engine.

Link ?

 

[Gattsu25]

Link ?

why do you need a link...you do have the game, right?

 

[wazoo]

why do you need a link...you do have the game, right?

You know how to decide if a game was trilinear filtered just looking at it ??

 

[dark10x]

You know how to decide if a game was trilinear filtered just looking at it ??

Yes.

Do you even know what trilinear filtering is? I'm starting to wonder if you do...

 

[wazoo]

Yes.

Do you even know what trilinear filtering is? I'm starting to wonder if you do...

Yes i know. I even know that all GC games are trilinear filtered. It does not mean that ps2/GC games of the same games will look very different.

When I'm looking at Jak2, "wonderful IQ and filtering" is not what goes to mind., at least outside of the cut-scenes

 

[Gattsu25]

When I'm looking at Jak2, "wonderful IQ and filtering" is not what goes to mind

No...this does:

[slowdown] every two second in the city, and every 10 sec in the gameplay segments.

 

[wazoo]

No...this does:

Yes, but at least I'm playing thru this game. So it does mean I think the framerate issue is enough to stop playing it.

Maybe I've should have said "I can see trilinear filtering on ps2. I can even see bump mapping if you ask me".