Do you want a show, or do you want to see them? Touring boats that have whale-sightings allow the whales, or orcas in this case, to go about their lives uninterrupted and allows tourists to get their "inspirational" moments and photo-ops.
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Jane Goodall: 'Close down Seaworld'
- Thread starter RustyNails
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Do you want a show, or do you want to see them? Touring boats that have whale-sightings allow the whales, or orcas in this case, to go about their lives uninterrupted and allows tourists to get their "inspirational" moments and photo-ops.
This is 100% true. Getting enough specimen in protected areas (like zoos) and conducting a proper breeding program would have ensured enough genetic diversity to save the species. This has been proven to work.
Why? Did you have another option? You know, this not being Victorian England and all?
IdreamofHIME
Member
Dont believe their lies. They had a statement on their website saying they don't separate calf's and mothers with a photo of a mum and baby, then a whistle blower revealed that those two particular whales had not only been separated but where currently living on different continents.
So not only did we need more of them in zoos, we didn't need them in their natural habitat?
abstract alien
Member
Aren't they miserable in those conditions?
TheZink
Member
Exactly how I feel.
There's nothing about whales dancing for our amusement that contributes to research. And there's got to be a better way of obtaining funds for said research than to make them dance.
If I remember correctly this guy was recently on TDS.
BertramCooper
Banned
You realize that pretty much all zoos (at least legitimate zoos in the western world) are non-profit organizations, don't you?
DoktorEvil
Banned
Don't be dense. Zoos are equipped to help animals such as Rhinos remain protected from poaching and help them procreate to continue their existence, all as a non-profit.
Whether you think animals deserve to be locked in a cage or not, zoos have help preserve some species of animals.
Please present another option that would allow animals to remain in healthy populations.
Their natural habitat wasn't preserving genetic material to institute surrogate pregnancies to restore the species to the wild. Victorian England is very advanced these days.
She's right. Shut it the fuck down. Let those whales back into the ocean where they are supposed to be. Sea World is horrible, and not only is it driving whales mad and making them injure one another (or worse), the handlers are in constant danger as well. Let;s not forget people have already lost their lives in the Animal Park business, specifically at Sea World.
BennyBlanco
aka IMurRIVAL69
I've seen Jumanji. It's a bad idea.
I like the Bronx Zoo. It's fun and my nephew loves it. They do a great job over there. Might even get a season pass this year, they're very reasonable.
If their natural habitat were safe, it'd be ideal.
I will say my responses to you haven't been the best, and, for that, I apologize. It's too easy to go to snark on boards like this. Instead, I realize that you believe that the purpose of a zoo is as a display of animals, but it is so much more than that. The primary purpose of a zoo lies in awareness, followed by research, followed by a method to support conservation efforts, and then as a display.
RustyNails
Member
This is like saying inmates should be kept in prisons because long serving inmates can't survive on their own in real world.
edit: brainfart.
HORRORSHØW
Member
tangential but i often hike in griffith park here in los angeles and there're remnant of the old LA zoo strewn about. the cages are so small it's hard to imagine what the animals had to endure. their updated facilities aren't much better.
As they continue to catch and detain new whales. The place needs to be closed, and the whales need to be placed somewhere outside of FLIP FOR ME UNTIL YOU DIE Palace.
Patapwn
Member
Surprised at the zoo hate in here.
I know that when I was a kid I benefited greatly from going to my big city zoo. Such places can inform and ignite passions which can and do lead to good for various species and ecosystems.
I think it's fine to insist on living condition improvements at these places but this thinking of 'they be prisons shut em' down!' is foolish idealism if I ever did see it.
I know that when I was a kid I benefited greatly from going to my big city zoo. Such places can inform and ignite passions which can and do lead to good for various species and ecosystems.
I think it's fine to insist on living condition improvements at these places but this thinking of 'they be prisons shut em' down!' is foolish idealism if I ever did see it.
I think Zoos wildly overstate their capabilities of their breeding programs, and the fitness of these captive animals to thrive in the wild. And they may be ostensibly non-profit, but that doesn't mean money is not a factor. The entrance isn't zero dollars and the staff don't volunteer. Toronto has Pandas. Toronto is giving money to China to host these pandas, which ostensibly goes to habitat protection. Therefore China has economic incentive to take pandas out of their habitat. And no one profits. Wink, wink.
No prob, we cool. I like getting into arguments, it's not personal at all. I just disagree at the very premise of zoos, and I think they're outdated and ineffective at their mission.
No prob, we cool. I like getting into arguments, it's not personal at all. I just disagree at the very premise of zoos, and I think they're outdated and ineffective at their mission.
Eighty Deuce
Banned
Yeah let's sell them to Japan for sushi-er scientific research
BennyBlanco
aka IMurRIVAL69
what good is in taken a perfectly healthy 20,000 pound marine mammal and throwing it into glorified swimming pool?
RandyBobandy
Banned
Nah, you're alright Jane. Seaworld is great
BertramCooper
Banned
Smithsonian's National Zoo in D.C. (which also has pandas) has free admission. I'm sure there are other free zoos as well.
RobbieNick
Junior Member
I NEVER trust documentaries anymore. Most of them are full of lies because they want to make a particular statement and will greatly distort the truth and hide other facts to serve their purpose. I've seen many docs where I find out later that 90% of what was shown was made up. "Super Size Me" is a good example of a documentary that is complete bull and goes out of it's way to demonize McDonalds. It was years before we realized just how full of shit Micheal Moore was.
It allows them to educate people on that species through the medium of entertainment. Also, people seem to forget all the sick and endangered sea life Seaworld brings in to get healed and put back into the wild.
hunchback
Member
SeaWorld and the other places can stay open and still teach and rehabilitate some marine animals if it's done properly. Unfortunately they will never be able to justify what they have done to Orcas.
These beautiful and highly intelligent whales need to be in their pods with the rest of their families. They need to be able to hunt, not jump through a hoop for food. They need to be able to dive down to depths of their own choosing. They also need to communicate with other Orcas in their pods.
Each of the things I have listed serves to keep the Orcas happy and mentally stable. There are other ways to observe them while you take your family on a vacation. I live in Washington state and we have whale watching tours on boats that let you observe them in their natural environment interacting with their pod families. That's a better learning experience than having a Orca jump over a trainer in a pool. Sorry for such a long post.
These beautiful and highly intelligent whales need to be in their pods with the rest of their families. They need to be able to hunt, not jump through a hoop for food. They need to be able to dive down to depths of their own choosing. They also need to communicate with other Orcas in their pods.
Each of the things I have listed serves to keep the Orcas happy and mentally stable. There are other ways to observe them while you take your family on a vacation. I live in Washington state and we have whale watching tours on boats that let you observe them in their natural environment interacting with their pod families. That's a better learning experience than having a Orca jump over a trainer in a pool. Sorry for such a long post.
DoktorEvil
Banned
Again, you aren't suggesting an alternative. Zoos aren't the most ideal, but they are a hell of a lot better than the dog & pony show that Seaworld calls "marine preservation" under the guise of a theme park.
I also actually pay the gate to go to the zoo and aquarium in NY. I'm not deluded into thinking any of it is cheap.
Specious reasoning at its worst.
Habitat destruction, hunting, low reproductive rates are all causes for removing them from their habitat. And habitat protection has increased their land in the wild since conservation efforts have begun.
There's cautious, and then there's intentionally remaining ignorant. Sea World is a horrible place for Orca wells to be. Whales killing handlers is a fact, not a spin on a narrative. Whales being sick, and also attacking one another is not fiction, but actual recorded events you can find at any number of sources outside the documentary.
we can educate ourselves on the species without having to make it jump through hoops.
Is that satire ?
Demonizing Mcdonalds ? And Super Size Me was directed by Morgan Spurlock ... Not Michael Moore.
You can always cross-check facts after watching a documentary. Watch Blackfish and then we can talk. I'd love to hear your arguments.
tensuke
Member
A fire?...At a sea parks?
DoktorEvil
Banned
If you've read his post, you'd understand he was demonizing Michael Moore and Morgan Spurlock. He's not wrong that documentaries are filmed to present a specific narrative.
Tone down the defensiveness.
Littlefang
Member
Wow I like how this commercial is just like "just take our word for it guys." Can't say I'm too heartbroken about SeaWorld tanking because of BlackFish. I certainly don't agree with the exploitative side of SeaWorld but they shouldn't just be shut down. They need to be made more accountable for their actions and they should be banned from acquiring or breeding any new large sea mammals.
Matt_
World's #1 One Direction Fan: Everyone else in the room can see it, everyone else but you~~~
Pardon my ignorance because I don't really know anything on the subject, but do people have a problem with all marine life being in these parks or is it just the bigger animals like Orcas? Or do the smaller animals that are trained, like sea lions, suffer as much too?
I agree with you 100%.
markofhavoc
Member
To be fair, they do give out a website that gives our more then just there word. I interviewed the guy who runs the park in san Diego for an executives chair class in college. The movie hit them hard, but I do not think it's a bad company. The park brings a lot of money in, which helps them fund further research. Also, they do a lot for San Diego, both through revenues and community projects
It is not so much the shows as it is everything else. For one, the whales do not have a lot of space to swim around. Wild Orcas swim up too 100 miles each day. Orcas also have large familial bonds and throwing whales from different families doesn't work. SeaWorld has also been known to separate babies from the moms.
As an intelligent animal yourself, imagine living in the same situation as the whales. You would be frustrated living that kind of life when you are capable of doing so much more.
Another thing to consider; a dog isn't restricted to living in the same home / backyard its whole life. People take them on walks. They can hop in the car and get taken to new places. They get to meet people and more importantly, other dogs. The average dog has more variety in it's life than the SeaWorld whales do.
The Orcas are a particular problem because of how big they are. I mentioned how orcas will swim many miles each day. To replicate the vastness and depth of the ocean obviously would not be profitable for Sea World. I do not agree much with the way they keep Sea Lions either, but at least their size can be more well accommodated than the whales.
Not all zoos are as nice as that one. Check out the Surabaya Zoo. A worst-case example, but there are definitely zoos out there that aren't giving their animals the 5-star treatment. It should be of utmost importance that the animals are in a comfortable environment and aren't standing there bored all day.
Even with a nice enclosure, do you think all of the animals are satisfied living on the same small patch of land their whole lives? I know that any outdoor cat I've had has roamed further than any zoo tiger is able to.
Still need to watch this.
In full disclosure, my wife works for Seaworld Corporate. I hesitate to say that in threads like this because of all the irrational hate. With that said I obviously dont speak for them or her.
I can tell you that every single person I have met at that company doesnt like animals, they love them. And like many people here, simply want the best for all their animals. Like all of us, they are constrained by budget and size issues with many things. I can tell you every one of their animals gets the best food and vet care in the world. Thats not even close if you compare it to other zoos.
Also, not sure how many of you that hate the place have actually been there or seen it through a childs eyes. My ten year old son just last week had a kids day at work where he petted and fed an otter, and also saw how they were training a young sea lion for the show. He wants to be a marine biologist and believe me, thats 100% because of his interactions there.
I also have a 1 yr old daughter who only wants to watch frozen, elmo, or Mu (how she says shamu) videos on tv. Its cool seeing her wonder at them.
These are kids that are going to grow up picking up litter on the beach and caring for the environment. And that conservancy is preached throughout Seaworld, and has a real value to the world.
With that said, if you are just anti zoos, I get that. At least you are consistent and I respect that opinion. But those that just single out Seaworld based off of Blackfish, you really ought to do a little more research on that film.
I can tell you that every single person I have met at that company doesnt like animals, they love them. And like many people here, simply want the best for all their animals. Like all of us, they are constrained by budget and size issues with many things. I can tell you every one of their animals gets the best food and vet care in the world. Thats not even close if you compare it to other zoos.
Also, not sure how many of you that hate the place have actually been there or seen it through a childs eyes. My ten year old son just last week had a kids day at work where he petted and fed an otter, and also saw how they were training a young sea lion for the show. He wants to be a marine biologist and believe me, thats 100% because of his interactions there.
I also have a 1 yr old daughter who only wants to watch frozen, elmo, or Mu (how she says shamu) videos on tv. Its cool seeing her wonder at them.
These are kids that are going to grow up picking up litter on the beach and caring for the environment. And that conservancy is preached throughout Seaworld, and has a real value to the world.
With that said, if you are just anti zoos, I get that. At least you are consistent and I respect that opinion. But those that just single out Seaworld based off of Blackfish, you really ought to do a little more research on that film.
FunkyPajamas
Member
Vigilant Walrus
Member
@ To the guy who doesn't believe Blackfish. Look - Every documentary has an agenda. Every news story has an agenda. There is no such thing as non-biased news stories. We should always be critical, but to discredit every documentary completely is not fair!
On the subject of zoo:
I think Zoos should be reformed. they need more space, and seeing the animals needs to be safari-park experiences. The animals need larger areas of land. predators need to be able to hunt, and the experience has to be more like going into some sort of safari-off-road guided tour or through under water tunnels in much larger bassins.
You could build Seaworlds in a bay. It could be a massive closed off area that would allow people to see them. Seaworlds could be erected at the shore in places where you could take boat rides out to where dolphins and whales are often. I think its in Bohol in the Philippines where you can swim with whale sharks. That is cool and exciting!
The problem with whales and dolphins is not that they perform tricks. It's that they are in poor health and get stressed. It's just too little space.
The argument that zoos do make people care is true, because many people around the world are horrible ignorant of animals and torture them. many places in the world its completely okay to torture and bully all sorts of animals because fuck them and their feelings.
A good example is Indonesia were farmers are slaughtering peaceful Orangutangs because they eat their crops. They cut them down with machettes or capture them and stuff them in barrels and rape them.
This sort of behavior sounds sadistic, but it is happening on such a level in many poor places that we have to conclude that the lack of education and understand of how animals feel is one of the main reasons why they are treated so badly. Zoos are really important, but we need to fight.
On the subject of zoo:
I think Zoos should be reformed. they need more space, and seeing the animals needs to be safari-park experiences. The animals need larger areas of land. predators need to be able to hunt, and the experience has to be more like going into some sort of safari-off-road guided tour or through under water tunnels in much larger bassins.
You could build Seaworlds in a bay. It could be a massive closed off area that would allow people to see them. Seaworlds could be erected at the shore in places where you could take boat rides out to where dolphins and whales are often. I think its in Bohol in the Philippines where you can swim with whale sharks. That is cool and exciting!
The problem with whales and dolphins is not that they perform tricks. It's that they are in poor health and get stressed. It's just too little space.
The argument that zoos do make people care is true, because many people around the world are horrible ignorant of animals and torture them. many places in the world its completely okay to torture and bully all sorts of animals because fuck them and their feelings.
A good example is Indonesia were farmers are slaughtering peaceful Orangutangs because they eat their crops. They cut them down with machettes or capture them and stuff them in barrels and rape them.
This sort of behavior sounds sadistic, but it is happening on such a level in many poor places that we have to conclude that the lack of education and understand of how animals feel is one of the main reasons why they are treated so badly. Zoos are really important, but we need to fight.
I'm sure the people who work there love animals. I'm sure it's good to expose kids to wild sealife and inspire them to love and respect all creatures. My daughter loves that movie about the dolphin with the fake tale, though the dolphin is the best actor in that movie.
I've done my research. What Seaworld does is WRONG. No amount of justification can change that. Your wife might think she's doing good, but time will prove her efforts were in support of a corporation that doesn't have the animals best interests at heart. There's a mountain of evidence to prove they value profits more than the lives of the animals they
I doesn't make the people who work there bad, just misguided. They way we thought about other life on this planet is evolving, finally, but it might be too late.
CrocMother
Banned
I would hope so it's literally their job to keep it alive.
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