dr_rus
Member
It's awful that marketing sucks up more than half the total budget
It's especially awful as there are several studies already which prove that final sales are not directly related to a marketing budget.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Jason Schreier has heard it's impossible to find senior leads due to mass dev burnout
- Thread starter Nirolak
- Start date
It's especially awful as there are several studies already which prove that final sales are not directly related to a marketing budget.
tokenflipguy
Member
I am not being skeptical, but you link to any?
RoninChaos
Member
HardCastle really nailed it, but I also want to add that the other part of this that really needs to be addressed is greed. Interficium's premise seems to be based on the thought that the developer is altruistic and so is the publisher. Based on what we've seen from this industry over the years, you can't really check that off for the publisher, nor can you check that off depending on the developer either.
Now, with that said, when we talk about greed it can be for different reasons. Companies like EA and Activision are doing it for stock performance. They want that incoming cash flow so they can do what they do. I think with studios like Ubi it's 50/50, because some of the major money coming in from something like assassin's creed is why we got things like Child of Light. But none of that really addresses the scummy feeling that microtransactions have in general. It turns a game from being a thing you buy so you can enjoy it to something that is designed around constantly getting you to put money into it after you already plunked down 60 bucks. That feels shitty, especially when a few years ago the industry told us we were killing it by buying used games, you had ass clowns like Cliffy B riding around in Ferrari's and telling the average joe who scrapes up 60 bucks to buy a game that HE was the problem. For the most part the industry, particularly through the 360/ps3/Wii era was rampant with shit business decisions that killed a lot of major developers. And during all of that the management at these companies never once took any responsibility for their business decisions being shitty. They just blamed the consumer. So when I see microtransactions it just reminds me of shit like EA's "Project Ten Dollar" which they labeled with PR speak as "Giving options to the customer!". What made it even worse was people were defending these companies doing shit to be actively anti-consumer. I can't think of an industry that is so outwardly hostile to it's own consumer base and one where the customer base still lines up to buy it anyway.
dr_rus
Member
Not straight away. The last one I've read was published around GDC I think.
Kaleinc
Banned
If fresh meat for the grinder is easily available and ready to crunch 80-100 hour weeks then not really.
The culinary field is very similar. It's also sold as "do it for the passion" and "do it for the art", while you're working back breaking hours (goodbye family) with no vacation time, in a high stress, perfection driven environment. And you don't get paid much, while you feed the rich.
I became disenchanted.
I became disenchanted.
Hypereides
Member
The notion of crunch in the industry is becoming increasingly more widespread, potentially repelling qualified candidates from entering the industry.
Furthermore, it doesn't help that research shows crunch isn't efficient and counterproductive.
A scroll through game company reviews on Glassdoor should be suffiecient to make someone think twice.
Interficium
Banned
Guess what, most games are commercial products designed to make money. They were in the beginning and they will continue to be in the future. Nothing has changed. It's pretty simple: These companies make products, and if people find the value proposition to be good enough, they'll buy them. If it's not good enough, they don't buy them (or they buy them, have a bad experience, and refuse to buy the next product that company comes out with).
Also, I'm sure this isn't going to really register with you, but I'm going to try anyways: It might be easier for your narrative to think of them as cartoonishly evil, "ferrari-driving ass clowns" who are out to screw "average joe out of his $60," but in actual, adult reality 99% of people who work at publishers and developers are just hard working, basically good people just like you or I.
I really disagree here, I think that vast swathes of any given developers workforce probably are quite hard working, but having worked in my field for a few years in luxury retail, seeing the incredibly incompetent management decisions that decide staffing, department budgets training etc you would be forgiven if you thought these places where run by malcontent sociopaths. Its actually 50/50 sociopaths and clueless monkeys.
Ok I get that my industry is completely different and is not even 1:1 representative of video game development in any small way but I do believe similar pressures and trends are occurring across a lot of creative and labour intensive industries (in my case high fashion). Most companies post 08 had the shocking realisation they could get more for there bottom dollar with aggressive stock options and financial products, heavy 'efficiency' cost cutting in important areas, staffing and training. Actual real efficiencies in corporate structures and workflow improvements will have dropped significantly.
This is how a company such as THQ can implode, a poor balance of budget and a lack of broad offering of products, they thought they could see lighting in a bottle with Udraw which would have pleased shareholders no end and gambled the entire company away with short term thinking.
Companies are not run by rational actors, despite what many free market fundamentalists would suggest, and do not always have the correct knowledge of the market to make consistently positive decisions. Short term shareholder capitalism is driving many industries into the ground.
JohnSpartanLee
Member
I agree that game development is too much work for too little reward these days.
Compsiox
Banned
Don't ever put Digipen and Full Sail in the same sentence.
Not sure if this has been touched upon but I see stuff like this or stuff like "Younger people/people just out of College/University will pick up the slack" in many threads that talk about Unions in the game dev industry.
And I just think "Why?" - I mean think of it this way, if the majority of game developers (and more importantly, the more well known game dev members) went and Unionized then what would happen? Would every company suddenly outsource everything? Or hire all the new talent that graduate every year?
And if they did that, wouldn't that result in a lower quality game, in a time where social media and word of mouth is so important. I'd think game companies and publishers would want to avoid that as it can hurt sales.
"But Marketing will take care of it" - depends, some games, it won't. Other games it will.
And more importantly, if marketing sold a bad game from a company several times in a row, people would get wise eventually and would stop buying games from said company. (generally, though there may be exceptions).
I would like to think companies would want to avoid that as it's easy to lose your reputation, it's harder to build it back up. As many of the bigger companies probably know.
In the end, I don't think there is a reason to not Unionize in the US outside of "But this is the way we have always done things". - if many of the more well known developers actually teamed up and Unionized, it could start changing things I believe.
But I don't see it happening until it's too late and things in the industry end up even worse than they are now. (somehow)
Humdinger
Member
I'm an older guy, so the thing that bums me out about this is that it means game development will continue to be led and driven almost entirely by people under 35. I've got nothing against people in that age range, but what bothers me is that you don't get developers with more life and creative experience, only games designed and led by younger people. The more seasoned, mature people have left the field.
That's very different than what happens in other artistic/entertainment realms (books or films, for instance), where a lot of great work --
and very different sorts of work -- is done by older, more experienced people. Videogames, in contrast, will continue to be developed and led mostly by younger people. It's unfortunate, because that means the medium will be correspondingly limited in its range and development.
That's very different than what happens in other artistic/entertainment realms (books or films, for instance), where a lot of great work --
and very different sorts of work -- is done by older, more experienced people. Videogames, in contrast, will continue to be developed and led mostly by younger people. It's unfortunate, because that means the medium will be correspondingly limited in its range and development.
It does make me sad that there isn't much concern over mentor/student style game development. Companies in tech just want ready-to-go talent and aren't really interested in training it's own employee base. Which leads to the catch 22 of expecting their employees to be trained by their competitors first.
I've had people ask me 'if you love games so much, why don't you work in the industry?'
Because the industry fucking sucks, that's why.
Humdinger
Member
That's true. I hadn't thought of that, but if you lose older people (>35), you also deprive the younger guys of mentors. I'm thinking now of Robert Bly and Richard Rohr, and how they discuss the damaging effects of not having older male guides in the culture (or subculture, in this case). But that's a bit of a tangent, lol, so I won't get into that. But having an older, seasoned mentor can make a huge difference.
I'm super self driven and self taught but I always want to have someone with experience help refine that. The problem is even if I listen to people with experience in a casual setting they don't share a lot because any developer-y person that's standing near you that doesn't work for your company is potential competition so it's this weird situation where developer types want to talk shop all the time but don't talk shop all the time because you're all technically working against each other but will probably be working together at the same company six months from now.
BriareosGAF
Member
Settle down there, killer, of course you do, when you're talking about possible places someone who worked in a game development program curriculum could have come from. But yes, they have completely different quality of programs, students, and outcomes.
Have you ever been to GDC, SIGGRAPH, I3D, Digital Dragons, etc.? Not to mention there are tons of private forums where developers talk shop constantly. We publish on our research page, sponsor professors, as do many other companies.
Prototype Viktor
Member
the CTE of game development
Yep. Having worked for AAA studios I have to say... Fuck this industry.
No, never had money to solo those or an opportunity to be part of an "away team" except for E3, which is too hectic to really do any of that stuff. I know they're more open there, especially when you know people aren't overhearing. Just when you're interacting semi-casually chatting etc, the understandable standoffishness happens is what I'm talking about. I do participate in a couple of private forums.
GDC's definitely on my list though, will possibly finally make next year's, and I read everyone's publish pages constantly.
As a software engineer who doesn't make games for a living it baffles me why anyone who can write code would ever work in the games industry (other than maybe young people just out of school, are absolutely passionate about games, and just don't know any better). You can make significantly more money taking your talents elsewhere and also have a work/life balance that isn't totally out of whack.
Crunch is usually a symptom of mismanagement or poor planning by company leadership, and seems to be endemic to the game dev industry. Of course it's going to be almost impossible to find senior leads, why would anyone stick around long enough to become senior?
Crunch is usually a symptom of mismanagement or poor planning by company leadership, and seems to be endemic to the game dev industry. Of course it's going to be almost impossible to find senior leads, why would anyone stick around long enough to become senior?
These topics always revolve around crunch when arguably the bigger motivating factor to leave is rising costs of living in the big metropolitan cities most AAA studios exist in.
Not going to name the studio I work at, but we exist in that space now but are located in a relatively small town by comparison. Over the past two years we've had plenty of success hiring other senior level talent, partially because of our locaction. Four years ago I did the math, and sure enough it made more financial sense to work here than return to SF or LA. And that was then, I can only imagine how much worse it is for many game devs in the city now.
Yes, I've heard some real horror stories with crunch, and I've been through some tough periods of it myself, but the saddest part is always learning about how some of these talented, experienced developers are working late hours and barely scraping by at home, especially when they have families. And before I go blaming publishers and studios for not paying well enough, there's no way a AAA project that began 4 years ago in SF, LA, etc could budget for the outrageous living costs people are facing now.
Not going to name the studio I work at, but we exist in that space now but are located in a relatively small town by comparison. Over the past two years we've had plenty of success hiring other senior level talent, partially because of our locaction. Four years ago I did the math, and sure enough it made more financial sense to work here than return to SF or LA. And that was then, I can only imagine how much worse it is for many game devs in the city now.
Yes, I've heard some real horror stories with crunch, and I've been through some tough periods of it myself, but the saddest part is always learning about how some of these talented, experienced developers are working late hours and barely scraping by at home, especially when they have families. And before I go blaming publishers and studios for not paying well enough, there's no way a AAA project that began 4 years ago in SF, LA, etc could budget for the outrageous living costs people are facing now.
thomasmahler
Member
That's really a weird way of looking at it. Why would a painter ever paint what his heart desires when he could make much more money using his creative skills in other ways? Do you define your life solely based on how you could make the most amount of money? People work in games cause the work is fascinating, challenging and rewarding. I hate that people just generally say now that 'the industry sucks'. No, it doesn't. Some of the big AAA studios exploit folks, sure, but what's with this gross generalization?
This is what I did. I spent nine years in the industry but it's not an industry if you have a young family. The hours and money are appalling when compared to what I get outside the industry. I make over double what I got in games and I do about 16 hours less a week.
My son is interested in coding and asked me about working in the game industry, as he's too young to remember (he was 8 when I left the industry) just how little time I had for him, so I told him that as much of a dream job it sounds it's much more fun to take your talents to another industry and just play games on the side.
SMOK3Y
Generous Member
Any job can burn you out if you work too many hrs especially labour intensive work for 3yrs i did 15hrs a day 7 days a week 😶
H.Protagonist
[-_-]/
The industry gives you more gray hairs than kids: FACT. Great people, though~
More seriously, as we always say, you make it past the 5 year mark and you're a grizzled veteran. Doesn't matter how old you are. The ones I do know that are still functioning in high level roles are made out some other kind of material, though. Much respect to them, and much commiseration. The face of a man who's missed his kid's birthday because he's been in the office till 4AM and had to go right back in again a few hours later does something horrible to the soul.
More seriously, as we always say, you make it past the 5 year mark and you're a grizzled veteran. Doesn't matter how old you are. The ones I do know that are still functioning in high level roles are made out some other kind of material, though. Much respect to them, and much commiseration. The face of a man who's missed his kid's birthday because he's been in the office till 4AM and had to go right back in again a few hours later does something horrible to the soul.
Goro Majima
Kitty Genovese Member
From an outsiders perspective I don't know what to suggest for improving working conditions. It seems that even with all the crunch time and shitty wages, these games still cost way too much to make and there doesn't seem to be enough money going around.
The return on investment is like what? 10% if the game sells really well with occasional outliers like GTA5 for example? The market is so saturated with massive 100+ hour games that there's a huge inherent risk in the industry also.
Compared to something like Hollywood movies where it's regularly 200%+ (although their accountants will make the profit disappear), if you work in CGI or something then wouldn't that be a lot more appealing than video games? At least in that industry you know there's money going around.
Unionizing is probably not a terrible idea but it wouldn't surprise me if more and more work isn't outsourced overseas where horrible working conditions are still common.
The return on investment is like what? 10% if the game sells really well with occasional outliers like GTA5 for example? The market is so saturated with massive 100+ hour games that there's a huge inherent risk in the industry also.
Compared to something like Hollywood movies where it's regularly 200%+ (although their accountants will make the profit disappear), if you work in CGI or something then wouldn't that be a lot more appealing than video games? At least in that industry you know there's money going around.
Unionizing is probably not a terrible idea but it wouldn't surprise me if more and more work isn't outsourced overseas where horrible working conditions are still common.
Sumio Mondo
Member
I know somebody who's just entered the industry recently, he's thankful he's staying indie with his friends from the game course he took, especially after the horror stories he's heard from those within the industry. He still has the dream of joining some of the big boys though, for some reason.
Return on investment is probably higher than that quite often. I know several games that gaf labels "flops" but brought in multiple times their budget.
TarpitCarnivore
Member
You can apply the same theory and logic to software development for any big name company or start up.
I worked in the industry for a year in QA straight out of Uni. Back then I did enjoy the work as I was young but the pay was the minimum possible, job security non existent and pretty much no other benefits.
It was staggering to me after this when I got my first offer in a different software field that paid significantly better, had much better benefits, actual job security and a real work \ life balance.
I was always aiming to work in the Games Industry but accepted fairly quickly that the reality of it didn't match the dream. Not even close. So this doesn't surprise me. I could never go back now and certainly couldn't do it moving forward in my life where security and stability is needed so much more. It's a damn shame, I wish there was a solution but all the issues discussed are so endemic to the industry.
It was staggering to me after this when I got my first offer in a different software field that paid significantly better, had much better benefits, actual job security and a real work \ life balance.
I was always aiming to work in the Games Industry but accepted fairly quickly that the reality of it didn't match the dream. Not even close. So this doesn't surprise me. I could never go back now and certainly couldn't do it moving forward in my life where security and stability is needed so much more. It's a damn shame, I wish there was a solution but all the issues discussed are so endemic to the industry.
Sanctuary
Member
If the turnaround is really this high, "the good old days" of gaming might not be as hyperbolic as many try to make it out to be. Quality control or consistensy can't be very high if you're constantly swapping those with creative control or simply hiring people that lack many years of experience.
BriareosGAF
Member
You really can't imagine any other perspective or situation in which a rational actor would make that decision?
The industry is still young. My experience in AAA is that every year the average amount of years of experience for team members goes up, largely as a function of the industry aging in general. Our team probably has an average of fifteen years of experience and of my friends in the industry I think only one has exited (to work in automated vehicles). On the flip side one of my colleagues published games for the Apple II and Atari in the early 80s. I suppose there was a schism at the demarcation of the first market crash in the 80s; but one of my bosses on the SM games worked on Wasteland, and he's still in the industry, too.
H.Protagonist
[-_-]/
People's dreams and the things that inspire us aren't always (or even generally IMO) built around money or other cold logical planning. When I joined the industry the last thing on my mind was kids or family, and I certainly didn't have much worry for hours back then. I was in my 20s and to be doing something that exciting was enough. And it still excites me. After all the crunch and burnout and stress I still love it/the people enough to keep my foot in the door. A lot of the practices and culture might/do fly against common sense, but understanding why people still line up to do it is all too easy. It's hard to give proper weight to the bad until you've experienced it, and even then... *shrug*
There are a few issues here, in my experience:
1) Burnout, as stated.
2) Seniors never leaving their (stable) company. This happens often, because stability is so few and far between, if you find something good, you stick it out as long as humanly possible.
3) Lack of senior devs because...no one on the market is experienced enough (see #2). And the ones who do move already had something lined up elsewhere, and were never "on the market" to begin with.
So yeah, a lot is burnout, but the other side of the coin is that it's very hard to become a senior because job stability is so low, and already seniors are in demand over lower level.
It's kind of a self fulfilling prophecy, really.
My two cents, anyway. Dunno how accurate that may be.
1) Burnout, as stated.
2) Seniors never leaving their (stable) company. This happens often, because stability is so few and far between, if you find something good, you stick it out as long as humanly possible.
3) Lack of senior devs because...no one on the market is experienced enough (see #2). And the ones who do move already had something lined up elsewhere, and were never "on the market" to begin with.
So yeah, a lot is burnout, but the other side of the coin is that it's very hard to become a senior because job stability is so low, and already seniors are in demand over lower level.
It's kind of a self fulfilling prophecy, really.
My two cents, anyway. Dunno how accurate that may be.
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
All true, but add to it the simple fact that given the relatively small pool of big developers, and the sheer length of AAA dev-cycles, its a very small field of candidates with the credentials to begin with.
Wasn't really my point. It's nothing to do with money or rationality. If you're inspired by something it seems that this is the best way to get thoroughly disillusioned by the whole endeavour. I'm not saying I don't know why people want to make games, just that this mode of doing so seems to suck.
Trogdor1123
Member
Given how people go bananas when a game is delayed or scaled back, I'm not surprised companies do this.
Mass_Pincup
Banned
That would be solved by not announcing game early and with a release date.
Yo, I'd give up everything to go work my dream job at 90s era Squaresoft. I think the industry will have finally sorted itself out when another studio can become what Squaresoft used to be.
This race between well-oiled AAA juggernauts doesn't end well for anyone who works for one, unless you own stock and split.
This race between well-oiled AAA juggernauts doesn't end well for anyone who works for one, unless you own stock and split.
That influence as you call it is what gets people paid. Companies being traded publicly and selling creative work (like games) as consumable items fuels dev abuse, though.
I think it's fairly straightforward for many that they want to work on or interact with those who have inspired them in their younger lives, and this year we've seen two games (Mario Rabbits and Sonic Mania) where fans of the original games' work are afforded the chance to work on the property and interact with those who inspired their gaming interest.
That said, on just those two examples, not much has been said about the type of conditions that the original staff worked on (Recalling Iwata and Sakurai working on Smash on weekends on top of their normal jobs at HAL). It's hard to separate the passion from the crunch.
JohnSpartanLee
Member
Indeed. Way more relaxed to code e.g. in Health industry at about the same salary.
Zombie James
Banned
Games are delayed and scaled back (at least in part) because of crunch.
https://hbr.org/2015/08/the-research-is-clear-long-hours-backfire-for-people-and-for-companies
http://www.salon.com/2012/03/14/bring_back_the_40_hour_work_week/
Basically, the longer you force people to work the most mistakes they make. The more mistakes they make - especially in tech - the more time they'll have to spend fixing those mistakes. The fact tech industries the world over haven't figured this out yet despite the mountains of evidence shows how incompetent they are.
Similar threads
- Locked
- Locked