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[CharlieDigital]

The Tea Party was also shitty and disorganized, yet the media narrative made it seem like they had a coherent message.

OWS wasn't exactly rocket science: People are protesting rising wealth inequality. But the media chose not to publicize that centralized message. Gee, I wonder why.

If you want to go the conspiracy route and say that it was a media conspiracy, you're taking the easy way out and not contributing to understanding the failure of the movement.

The Tea Party has been successful because their message has been, while intellectually and logically ridiculous, e.g.:

is easy to digest, and has been successfully developed over three decades. And, there is a hint of truth to the underlying assertion that our debt problem is out of control and everyone can agree to this; even Obama has acknowledged that we have to service our debt obligations or it will get out of hand over time with interest payments eating into our entitlement programs more and more.

 

[Devolution]

adam carolla's take:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJEbWMS_IHE

can't say i'm really a fan of the guy, but he hits it dead on here.

This already sounds stupid. "Envy" during this economy? People just want to work, a living wage and decent benefits.

If you want to go the conspiracy route and say that it was a media conspiracy, you're taking the easy way out and not contributing to understanding the failure of the movement.

The Tea Party has been successful because their message has been, while intellectually and logically ridiculous, e.g.:

is easy to digest, and has been successfully developed over three decades. And, there is a hint of truth to the underlying assertion that our debt problem is out of control and everyone can agree to this; even Obama has acknowledged that we have to service our debt obligations or it will get out of hand over time with interest payments eating into our entitlement programs more and more.

The Tea Party has been successful because it's been bank rolled by rich people.

 

[flippymittens]

Tea Party rally for one day, then organized votes in the Republican Primaries, repeat. OWS rallied for many days, didn't organize any votes.

Movements should only start with the protest, the action after the protest is what matters.

Well the Tea Party was given legitimacy by politicians because their message did not contradict special interest groups that I would imagine are in favor of smaller government with less regulation.

Occupy Wall Street was not given legitimacy because the movement served in no way or purpose from what I read to benefit anyone but the common people and those in poverty. Businesses, the wealthy, etc served no gain from Occupy Wall Street and we know politicians need special interest groups and campaign contributions to get elected.\
From its start Occupy Wall Street was an uphill battle because money buys influence.

 

[Moral Panic]

I'm sorry but when the "marketable" side of your message is 99% vs 1%, you can't really complain that people in the 1% think you are against them.

 

[ConfusingJazz]

Well the Tea Party was given legitimacy by politicians because their message did not contradict special interest groups that I would imagine are in favor of smaller government with less regulation.

Occupy Wall Street was not given legitimacy because the movement served in no way or purpose from what I read to benefit anyone but the common people and those in poverty. Businesses, the wealthy, etc served no gain from Occupy Wall Street and we know politicians need special interest groups and campaign contributions to get elected.\
From its start Occupy Wall Street was an uphill battle because money buys influence.

Trust me, the Republican Leadership think the Tea Party is a very mixed blessing. Do you think they wanted Sharron Angle to go against a vulnerable Harry Reid? Or Todd Akin to win what should be a Republican gain in Missouri?

The Republican Party appreciated the enthusiasm during the general election, but they also had to weather a bunch of wing nuts that were running in the primaries trying to take their jobs.

 

[flippymittens]

I'm sorry but when the "marketable" side of your message is 99% vs 1%, you can't really complain that people in the 1% think you are against them.

Well technically it is right, the interests of the "99%" versus the interests of the "1%". So it is not so much as being against the "1%" as it is being against their interest.

Occupy Wall Street had varying views just like any protest on that matter.

 

[sphagnum]

Ya. A 'socialist' ... Please give me an example of your socialist, non-capitalist utopias that have actually worked in practice?

I can give you several examples of places where government regulated capitalism has led to innovation, education, high standards of living, and general wealth.

Firstly, socialism isn't utopia - communism is. Socialism is merely workers' control of the means of production. Secondly, no country has ever achieved socialism without it being subverted first by state capitalists or authoritarians. That doesn't mean it's not a worthy goal to fight for. Otherwise we should have all given up on democracy after the French Revolution.

And every single one of those progressive capitalist counties you would like to mention has benefited its citizens at the expense of third world workers or gained its initial prosperity in some fashion through conquest, imperialism, or privilege. Capitalism can do amazing things, nobody ever disagreed with that. But it's rotten at the core.

edit: Being that this thread is about OWS, my opinion on it is that it was an important first step in reawakening Americans' realizations of the class struggle, but it failed due to its inability to stand up to the capitalist media's slanders, as well as genuine discord and disharmony inside of the movement itself. Its inability to pick one particular message isn't in itself a bad thing, because there's so much stuff wrong in the world that it is nearly impossible to argue about just one; most people who want OWS to just settle on something already are liberals who particularly want OWS only to argue about finance and usually want them to try to be the "anti-Tea Party" by trying to influence the Democrats through primaries or something like that. That's fine, if you're a progressive. For the rest of us, that just makes it a movement to prolong the inevitable. There was no way a movement of this type was ever going to find a way to unify liberals, socialists, communists, anarchists, and libertarians under one common cause. But it was an important step into introducing many people to radical politics, and in terms of the "mainstream" it at least got the 99% vs 1% message out there.

In short, it was a good thing even if only because it woke up a bunch of petty bourgeois white college students to harsher realities.

 

[SpectreFire]

Considering that the average median income for Americans is $32,000 a year, that makes them the top 6% richest people in the world in terms of income

Let's face it, most of the hipsters who were involved in OWS have zero idea what poverty.

 

[Devolution]

Considering that the average median income for Americans is $32,000 a year, that makes them the top 6% richest people in the world in terms of income

Let's face it, most of the hipsters who were involved in OWS have zero idea what poverty.

Yeah we should really be comparing ourselves to the worst countries not the best ones. Why strive to be the best country on earth despite always declaring ourselves as such.

 

[SpectreFire]

Yeah we should really be comparing ourselves to the worst countries not the best ones. Why strive to be the best country on earth despite always declaring ourselves as such.

Well maybe you should tell them to stop comparing themselves to poorer and worse off nations when its convenient.

Like i don't know, saying the Occupy Movement is the same thing as Arab Springs?

 

[flippymittens]

Trust me, the Republican Leadership think the Tea Party is a very mixed blessing. Do you think they wanted Sharron Angle to go against a vulnerable Harry Reid? Or Todd Akin to win what should be a Republican gain in Missouri?

The Republican Party appreciated the enthusiasm during the general election, but they also had to weather a bunch of wing nuts that were running in the primaries trying to take their jobs.

True I guess.

Considering that the average median income for Americans is $32,000 a year, that makes them the top 6% richest people in the world in terms of income

Let's face it, most of the hipsters who were involved in OWS have zero idea what poverty.

Really arguementum ad hominem with "hipsters"...

Also true that Americans are on average wealthier but the gap between the "6%" and the rest is a much lower gap than the 1%. I am for redistributing the top incomes bracket not to us but to those in developing countries.
Sweat shops must be ended.

 

[SpectreFire]

Also true that Americans are on average wealthier but the gap between the "6%" and the rest is a much lower gap than the 1%. I am for redistributing the top incomes bracket not to us but to those in developing countries.
Sweat shops must be ended.

I agree with that sentiment, but let me tell you the truth about sweatshops.

They will never end. Why? Because the same Americans who want income equality, will not at all tolerate the price increases of consumer products that comes with increased wages.

The American worker and consumer are often one in the same, but they stand for complete opposite things. One one hand they're complain that there are too many jobs sent overseas, and that they aren't making a decent wage. But once you bring the factories back to the states and giving out reasonable wages, they start complaining about how prices for things are too expensive compared to what it was back then.

 

[~Devil Trigger~]

“Yeah, the 1 percent that’s robbing people, and deceiving people, these fixed mortgages and all these things, and then taking their home away from them, that’s criminal, that’s bad.

“Not being an entrepreneur. This is free enterprise. This is what America is built on.”

NOBODY"S demonizing entrepreneurs. Stop fuckin playing victim.

 

[SpectreFire]

NOBODY"S demonizing entrepreneurs. Stop fuckin playing victim.

Tell that to all the food truck owners that kept getting harassed by Occupiers in my city.

 

[dave is ok]

Jay-Z knocks Occupy Wall Street, 'the Hustle' however escaped completely unknocked

 

[WanderingWind]

Keep in mind that part of this "entrepreneurship" that he's touting began with selling crack on street corners to kids.

Not to knock the hustle, but most of the people protesting probably were interested in jobs that didn't carry with it a penalty that involved lengthy jail time.

 

[Something Wicked]

Tell that to all the food truck owners that kept getting harassed by Occupiers in my city.

They must have not been organic.

 

[CharlieDigital]

NOBODY"S demonizing entrepreneurs. Stop fuckin playing victim.

When your message more or less boils down to "fuck the 1%", you don't make a distinction between those that rigged the system and those that pulled themselves up through the system.

Jay-Z's rebuttal is more or less a critique of how poorly OWS structured and conveyed their messaging. He very clearly states his agreement with the erroneous ways of Wall Street that lead to the collapse, but also states that he cannot throw his weight behind this particular movement because of the poor messaging and aimless direction.

I fully support higher marginal tax rates, raising capital gains tax rates, closing loopholes for offshore tax havens, putting stricter regulations in place with our large banks, etc., but I could never get behind OWS.

 

[alphaNoid]

Jay-Z is right, but who gives a shit about 1 persons opinion.

 

[Zhengi]

Right to protest is also what America is built on.

What were they protesting again?

 

[goodfella]

Also true that Americans are on average wealthier but the gap between the "6%" and the rest is a much lower gap than the 1%. I am for redistributing the top incomes bracket not to us but to those in developing countries.
Sweat shops must be ended.

Well that doesn't help us, we want more money. All this talk of wealth disparity is bullshit. People want more money, that is all.

 

[Ponn]

And?

If he's not in the 1 percent then how can he speak for the one percent? Entering the one percent may cause a chemical change in a person making them act differently. Also if he is in the 1 percent then how can you trust what he says?

 

[WanderingWind]

I honestly believe about 90% of this country's issues stem directly from the loss of blue collar day-to-day jobs due to outsourcing and politicizing infrastructure improvements to the point where they became a self-defeating prospect. Would people be AS pissed off of the "let them eat cake" attitudes of the wealthy if they were at least able to work for a livable wage?

 

[DominoKid]

WHERE IS JA

 

[dave is ok]

What were they protesting again?

Deregulation of banks, financialization of the economy, the increasing wealth gap

Just because they had a message which was mixed and poorly delivered does not mean they had no message. Ask anyone and they could tell you something OWS was protesting.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

Too bad OWS did such a terrible job of conveying this.

This. We all *know* what it was about but it wasn't conveyed AT ALL by the protesters in any articulate manner. I get it. People are tired of the top 1% changing the rules of the game to give themselves more and more of an advantage while putting everyone else at a greater and greater disadvantage.

No one really is jealous of someone being a multimillionaire. But they don't want those people to continually bribe politicians to continue to change the laws that benefit themselves.

But the OWS movement didn't convey that. They didn't get that point across. This isn't about "the media(tm)" portraying them poorly. They got a shit ton of press but with no cohesive message it just portrayed smelly hippies mad because the aren't where they want to be.

 

[Devolution]

I honestly believe about 90% of this country's issues stem directly from the loss of blue collar day-to-day jobs due to outsourcing and politicizing infrastructure improvements to the point where they became a self-defeating prospect. Would people be AS pissed off of the "let them eat cake" attitudes of the wealthy if they were at least able to work for a livable wage?

Livable wage and benefits. Unions have been weakened all over again. This coupled with rising health care means people are fucking broke or in debt.

 

[SpectreFire]

Deregulation of banks, financialization of the economy, the increasing wealth gap

Just because they had a message which was mixed and poorly delivered does not mean they had no message. Ask anyone and they could tell you something OWS was protesting.

They were protesting against farmed Salmon in Vancouver.

Also against the US government being involved in 9/11.

Here's their hilarious list of "demands" for Occupy Vancouver.

http://www.cbc.ca/bc/news/bc-111104-occupy-vancouver-demands.pdf

 

[dave is ok]

They were protesting against farmed Salmon in Vancouver.

Also against the US government being involved in 9/11.

Here's their hilarious list of "demands" for Occupy Vancouver.

http://www.cbc.ca/bc/news/bc-111104-occupy-vancouver-demands.pdf

I'm sure I could find you a tea partier who was protesting a Kenyan Muslim was president.

Just because protests give a voice to the mentally ill does not mean all protestors are crazy people.

 

[Byakuya769]

Jay-Z is completely right. 99% v. 1% is catchy but without some actual policy goals it did lend itself to immediately being dismissed as hating the rich, which it wasn't. It's good to start out organically, and the conversation of inequality is their legacy, but by failing to build any cohesive leadership an opportunity was missed.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

I'm sure I could find you a tea partier who was protesting a Kenyan Muslim was president.

Just because protests give a voice to the mentally ill does not mean all protestors are crazy people.

I don't think most people are saying that. Most people are just pointing out the message of that particular movement was simply scattered and not focused.

 

[CharlieDigital]

I would love to see a followup to OWS that actually had a message, actually had their shit together insofar as finances and legal issues goes, actually had a competent figurehead (either at the forefront or behind the scenes) orchestrating it and keeping everyone on-point.

There are real issues here that need to be solved with regards to income inequality, failed regulatory system, continual erosion of the working and middle classes at the expense of the few who have gamed the system. There are serious structural issues in our government, politics, and economics, and voices need to be heard, but there is a failure of organization.

So as much as the 99% hate on CEOs and other C-level executives, what they need is actually a couple of "C-level executives" to help put the pieces together.

 

[leadbelly]

Jay-Z says Occupy Wall Street had a fatal flaw: Its 99 messages.

Exactly how many problems does he have with the 99 messages?

 

[Devolution]

I would love to see a followup to OWS that actually had a message, actually had their shit together insofar as finances goes, actually had a competent figurehead (either at the forefront or behind the scenes) orchestrating it and keeping everyone on-point.

There are real issues here that need to be solved with regards to income inequality, failed regulatory system, continual erosion of the working and middle classes at the expense of the few who have gamed the system. There are serious structural issues in our government, politics, and economics, and voices need to be heard, but there is a failure of organization.

So as much as the 99% hate on CEOs and other C-level executives, what they need is actually a couple of "C-level executives" to help put the pieces together.

Personally I think the first thing they should have done was pinpoint the execs who ok-ed the bad loans, leveraged too much and encouraged the bullshit derivatives and asked that they be brought to justice. The excuse was "well this is a complicated and multi-faceted problem with many players." We all know that's horse shit.

 

[Recon]

You know the only difference between JayZ and those people who OWS protest against is that he used Wu Tang Financial. He diversified his bonds yo!

 

[ccbfan]

The whole message of 1% versus 99% was retarded to start with.

First they try to villianize the 1 percent which is being bigoted and starting class warfare. It unjustly groups a lot of hard honest working people into the "enemy" group. Makes the entire movement look like immature green eyed monsters. Instead of defining a clear and evident evil (corruption, lobbyist, deregulation) they went for the "These rich people have more money than the rest of us so they must be evil" message.

 

[Lesath]

I've always felt that the central tenet behind OWS had always been rather clear, which is that the involvement of money in our politics has lead to an environment of social irresponsibility and nonexistent accountability, benefiting the few with wealth, to the detriment of those without.

The scattered message thing might be because a lot of (at times irrelevant) ideas tried to ride in the coattails of this relatively popular movement, but if you're not retarded it's hard to see this criticism as grounded in anything but the mentality of, "if we parrot this enough, it will eventually be true."

 

[HAL_Laboratory]

Jay-Z is filthy rich, of course he doesn't give a shit about politics. I don't think he has a clue what OWS is about.

 

[.GqueB.]

I'm sure I could find you a tea partier who was protesting a Kenyan Muslim was president.

Just because protests give a voice to the mentally ill does not mean all protestors are crazy people.

The simple fact is, people wanted some semblance of unity even if they're unified in their insanity. It's hard to get behind something if the message is so muddled that you don't know what you're getting behind. They hate the 1% yet cheered when a celeb showed up. It's hard to ignore such a thing. The 99% vs 1% thing was ultimately where they failed. They didn't really think that one through.

 

[PBalfredo]

.

I think these protesters have the right idea.

No turn on red!
No turn on red!
No turn on red!

 

[Dude Abides]

I would love to see a followup to OWS that actually had a message, actually had their shit together insofar as finances and legal issues goes, actually had a competent figurehead (either at the forefront or behind the scenes) orchestrating it and keeping everyone on-point.

There are real issues here that need to be solved with regards to income inequality, failed regulatory system, continual erosion of the working and middle classes at the expense of the few who have gamed the system. There are serious structural issues in our government, politics, and economics, and voices need to be heard, but there is a failure of organization.

So as much as the 99% hate on CEOs and other C-level executives, what they need is actually a couple of "C-level executives" to help put the pieces together.

Sounds like a political party. There already are left political parties. The Green party and the Democratic Socialists of America. I don't think much would be gained by forming another one.

 

[DY_nasty]

When your message more or less boils down to "fuck the 1%", you don't make a distinction between those that rigged the system and those that pulled themselves up through the system.

Jay-Z's rebuttal is more or less a critique of how poorly OWS structured and conveyed their messaging. He very clearly states his agreement with the erroneous ways of Wall Street that lead to the collapse, but also states that he cannot throw his weight behind this particular movement because of the poor messaging and aimless direction.

I fully support higher marginal tax rates, raising capital gains tax rates, closing loopholes for offshore tax havens, putting stricter regulations in place with our large banks, etc., but I could never get behind OWS.

This. We all *know* what it was about but it wasn't conveyed AT ALL by the protesters in any articulate manner. I get it. People are tired of the top 1% changing the rules of the game to give themselves more and more of an advantage while putting everyone else at a greater and greater disadvantage.

No one really is jealous of someone being a multimillionaire. But they don't want those people to continually bribe politicians to continue to change the laws that benefit themselves.

But the OWS movement didn't convey that. They didn't get that point across. This isn't about "the media(tm)" portraying them poorly. They got a shit ton of press but with no cohesive message it just portrayed smelly hippies mad because the aren't where they want to be.

I feel the same basically...

I don't know why people feel the need to keep making excuses for OWS's short-comings though.

 

[dave is ok]

The whole message of 1% versus 99% was retarded to start with.

First they try to villianize the 1 percent which is being bigoted and starting class warfare. It unjustly groups a lot of hard honest working people into the "enemy" group. Makes the entire movement look like immature green eyed monsters. Instead of defining a clear and evident evil (corruption, lobbyist, deregulation) they went for the "These rich people have more money than the rest of us so they must be evil" message.

The point is that those people aren't hard working or honest.

 

[CharlieDigital]

Sounds like a political party. There already are left political parties. The Green party and the Democratic Socialists of America. I don't think much would be gained by forming another one.

It would be a "political party" in the same vein of the "Tea Party" and how they've co-opted the Republicans.

So far, no liberal group has been able to co-opt the Democratic party, which has moved further towards the center.

 

[Telosfortelos]

I agree, strongly. Leadership and a coherent, repeatable message would have gone a long ways towards making OWS a more meaningful movement with lasting change in the way the public at large views wealth and power. Even its name is a detriment to change, as an aggressive, even violent word like "occupy" reduces the movements ability to influence by framing it as purely us-versus-them.

That said, liberalism has failed at messaging in the past couple of decades. It's hard to find prominent liberal leaders that can articulate the benefits of something as simple as progressive taxation without relying on terrible emotional arguments. OWS at least got people talking about wealth disparity (to a rather pathetic degree, but something is better than nothing). We still need liberal intellectuals to take up the message, make it logically coherent to the general populous, and work towards meaningful political change.

 

[Byakuya769]

The point is that those people aren't hard working or honest.

All of them?

 

[Zee-Row]

Jay-Z would never have a career if Biggie never died. He likes to call himself one of the greatest when he really isn't.

 

[dave is ok]

All of them?

Of the 1%? Probably not.

Of the .0001%? Probably all of them yeah.

 

[ccbfan]

The point is that those people aren't hard working or honest.

So you're saying the majority of doctors are not hard working or honest?

 

[Keru_Shiri]

This. We all *know* what it was about but it wasn't conveyed AT ALL by the protesters in any articulate manner. I get it. People are tired of the top 1% changing the rules of the game to give themselves more and more of an advantage while putting everyone else at a greater and greater disadvantage.

No one really is jealous of someone being a multimillionaire. But they don't want those people to continually bribe politicians to continue to change the laws that benefit themselves.

But the OWS movement didn't convey that. They didn't get that point across. This isn't about "the media(tm)" portraying them poorly. They got a shit ton of press but with no cohesive message it just portrayed smelly hippies mad because the aren't where they want to be.

I'm not saying that OWS didn't mishandle their message, but don't pretend for a bit that media outlets didn't make it an uphill battle from the start.