Jimquisition: Dragon's Frown

It's not the same thing. Sure the proportions are still off, but you really have to see Dragon's Crown in action (or look at that video with the art book I linked earlier) to see it is more than just a big chest or a prominent bottom.

In game, it is constantly putting the females in (for no reason other than titillation) awkward positions where legs are spread or bottoms are raised or whatever.

If I recall my time with Odin Sphere, that was not a thing in that game.

I bought DC earlier today and have put a few hours into it already, so I have seen the characters in action. And i'm really not sure how it isn't the same. Odette's breasts jiggle every bit as much as the Sorceress if not more. Vanillaware's games in general are no stranger to female characters being very busty or wearing very revealing clothing and being posed in different positions. This is why I continue to find it strange that people have liked their other games but now DC is going too far. The only real difference now is that those characters are front and center in playable form instead of being ally or boss characters.
 
Wow, this thread is amazing. I look forward to playing this game but the sorceress is just stupid. What so many people in this thread seem to miss is that if you like the game that doesnt make you sexist! This thread just reads like "OMG how dare you criticize a Japanese as sexist."
 
This is such a weird position to me, it seems to completely ignore the larger cultural context.

Its perfectly alright for someone to be completely comfortable with sex and the human body and still think that, say, certain types of porn are degrading, or that types of art and fashion in a culture that, yes, is still dominated by the male gaze is inappropriate.

Are you telling me that GoT sex scenes were made for both male and female gazes? I find that incredible innacurate when 90% of nudity is dominated by female bodies...

And what's the larger cultural context here?

I understand that fanservice is a great part on Japanese gaming, which normally involves women with few clothes. The same is almost true in a large part of the west media, and gaming, as well...
 
Wow, this thread is amazing. I look forward to playing this game but the sorceress is just stupid. What so many people in this thread seem to miss is that if you like the game that doesnt make you sexist! This thread just reads like "OMG how dare you criticize a Japanese as sexist."
Are we reading the same thread? The game is sexual, fantasy sexual admittedly to the extreme, but calling it sexist because of it is a slippery slope.
 
I bought DC earlier today and have put a few hours into it already, so I have seen the characters in action. And i'm really not sure how it isn't the same. Odette's breasts jiggle every bit as much as the Sorceress if not more. Vanillaware's games in general are no stranger to female characters being very busty or wearing very revealing clothing and being posed in different positions. This is why I continue to find it strange that people have liked their other games but now DC is going too far. The only real difference now is that those characters are front and center in playable form instead of being ally or boss characters.

When you get knocked down or stunned in Odin Sphere, you are not in any of these positions:
i1Tt83dwPJqJ3.png
 
Are you telling me that GoT sex scenes were made for both male and female gazes? I find that incredible innacurate when 90% of nudity is dominated by female bodies...

And what's the larger cultural context here?

I understand that fanservice is a great part on Japanese gaming, which normally involves women with few clothes. The same is almost true in a large part of the west media, and gaming, as well...
Interestingly enough we're reaching a point where it seems like actual depictions of sex are becoming less problematic for a lot of people but when they perceive objectification through the use of sexual aesthetics in situations that don't "make sense" (read: not a sex scene) it bothers them

I've got some theories about this, mostly related to the fact that the "passive" nature of the relationship between the viewer and the subject has greater overtones of predatory voyeurism and control, whereas a scene with two active participants is more about their relationship, but I don't quite know where to look for the literature to see if anyone agrees with me (aside from the very basic Foucauldian gaze stuff and image theory in general)
 
When you get knocked down or stunned in Odin Sphere, you are not in any of these positions:
[IM]https://i.minus.com/i1Tt83dwPJqJ3.png[/IMG]

And the complaints about DC started way before any of those poses were known. It was built completely on the fact that the Sorceress has large breasts and they jiggle a lot.
 
I can't take dragon's crown nay sayers seriously (unless they complain about gameplay). This whole matter seems highly contrived and from my point of view not worth debating/talking to others about as it would just be a painful exercise.

This.

We need to stop all this talk about sexism and the objectifying of women in video games. It's so contrived.
 
It is not.


Obviously use your own personal discretion of what actual people in your life are comfortable with and what they might find distasteful. That naturally goes beyond videogames, but of course all women aren't the same, it's possible to enjoy something and not enjoy all of it, impressions are through the roof in the OT for those playing alone or online, and it's ultimately your choice if you want to consume this piece of entertainment.

Unless you post a generalizing and vaguely condescending blog/review online, there are no wrong options!

Yes, all that goes with out saying. I don't think I'm going to get the game though.
 
And the complaints about DC started way before any of those poses were known. It was built completely on the fact that the Sorceress has large breasts and they jiggle a lot.
I'm talking about now. Not months ago. That blog was posted now. Not months ago.

None of the playable characters in OS is buxom or hippy, I'm sure they would have if they were.
I'm talking about reality. Not hypotheticals.
 

So... he admits that he felt that elements of Bioshock Infinite were a poor fit with the overall game, yet he made the decision to stay silent about it? So basically, he's admitting that he thinks so little of the games he reviews that he won't bother criticizing them in the same manner critics regularly criticize other art forms. Seems to me he's pretty much admitted he's a poor reviewer. If he felt that the racism in Bioshock Infinite was disjointed, didn't add to the plot, and served mostly as a jarring distraction, he had an obligation to his readers to mention that in his review. Whatever reasons he had for omitting this from his criticism, his omission doesn't somehow serve as a bizarre argument against other reviewers who don't cower behind some silly idealistic view that reviews should be pristine and uncontroversial.

I think the general argument in this thread is more about whether said sexuality constitutes sexism (and why DC is being singled out) than whether someone should or shouldn't feel uncomfortable with it.

Wait, though. Why are those necessarily different things? Isn't it possible that a woman -- who has probably had her fair share of direct and personal experiences with sexism and therefore has a pretty good sense of what sexism feels like -- might feel uncomfortable precisely because of how much the game's depictions of women invoke those experiences for her? "Sexism" isn't some kind of binary value, just like authorial intent need not dictate audience experience. Obviously female nudity isn't inherently sexist -- no one has argued that it is, and I get indescribably tired of this straw (wo)man being flung around indiscriminately in these types of discussions. Sexism does not exist independent of context. If I apply for a job and am not hired because the director of HR thought I came across as shrill, that's not sexist *in a vacuum*. But that's just the thing -- life doesn't exist in a vacuum, and neither do games. Similarly, not all women's experience of sexism is the same. For the reviewer, the game connected with experiences of sexism SHE has encountered in her life. For other women, the correlation just isn't there. **No one is incorrect**. **No one's perspective here is "wrong"**.

What's so deeply troubling about the tone this discussion has taken is the umbrage at the very IDEA that any woman might have related the game's depiction of women to experiences of sexism that SHE HAS ACTUALLY HAD. Yes, how dare she have different life experiences than the majority of the game's audience. How dare she actually relate to a game as a human being and not as a mindless automaton who lives in a vacuum and has no real human experience. How dare she respect the game enough to treat it as a culturally-relevant work and therefore evaluate and critique it on the same terms she'd evaluate and critique any other piece of culture.

Here's the thing: she didn't say that it was impossible to enjoy the game without being a sexist pig (though admittedly some of the language in her review was off-putting). She didn't say that it was impossible to play the game and NOT connect it with past experiences of sexism. She most definitely didn't say that female nudity is inherently sexist. All she did was relay her experience. She shared that, to her, the game was alienating. And what does she get for sharing this? The same vitriol that most women with any visibility can look forward to any time they challenge the status quo.

This is actually a big issue both in the games industry and other places in life -- this resistance to women's experience. Practically every time a woman contributes her experience, if that experience points out any connection to sexism whatsoever, suddenly she's said something accusatory, or unfair, or mean, or PC, or any number of bizarre descriptors. NO. All she's done is communicated HER EXPERIENCE, and every time you try to silence her, YOU ARE PERPETUATING THE VERY SEXISM SHE WAS TALKING ABOUT. You're doing it by rejecting women's right to voice their experiences.

And no, quoting women who disagree with her doesn't mitigate this fact. All that does is send the message that women are allowed to have a voice if and only if they are saying things that "we" want them to say. This is every bit as marginalizing and dismissive as if you had literally said "hush now, men are talking."

I just feel that in seems that the line for what is acceptable seems way more further in other media, like shows and movies, in which progressively that line have been pushed forward by the years, decades ago you could barely show a frontal nude without raising a few eyebrows and now directors and writters have the freedom to do so.

While this is true, it has nothing to do with the matter at hand. Again, this isn't about whether or not it's "okay" to show scantily-clad women. It's taking a work in its entirety and noticing something that is frankly pretty damned noticeable, and commenting about it. If anything, it's the attacks on the review that fall into the general rubric of "games need to be a special category," because they implicitly suggest that games should get a special "get-out-of-sexism-free" card that other media don't (and if you aren't aware of criticisms of sexism in other media, you frankly aren't paying enough attention to validate even HAVING an opinion about these issues).
 
I'm talking about now. Not months ago. That blog was posted now. Not months ago.


I'm talking about reality. Not hypotheticals.
Do you understand the concept "you can't have it both ways?"
Yeah. There were no "ample" characters in OS, so why exaggerate? Show the elfs poses from that same artbook and enjoy your frothing glass of hypocrisy.
 
Do you understand the concept "you can't have it both ways?"
Yeah. There were no "ample" characters in OS, so why exaggerate? Show the elfs poses from that same artbook and enjoy your frothing glass of hypocrisy.

What hypocrisy?
I am just saying the reason Odin Sphere is used as a good thing in that blog or article or whatever is because it's not the same thing as what is happening in Dragon's Crown. So it is not crazy for that person to like Odin Sphere but dislike Dragon's Crown.

I'm not even stating my position on it. And the existence of the elf does not undo these two anyway.

For the record, I have Dragon's Crown. I'm going to play it. I'm not on some moral outrage forum rant mode or whatever. But I'm also not blind or in denial of some obvious things going on with these designs.

You're throwing these accusations of hypocrisy at me because...?
 
Wait, though. Why are those necessarily different things? Isn't it possible that a woman -- who has probably had her fair share of direct and personal experiences with sexism and therefore has a pretty good sense of what sexism feels like -- might feel uncomfortable precisely because of how much the game's depictions of women invoke those experiences for her? "Sexism" isn't some kind of binary value, just like authorial intent need not dictate audience experience. Obviously female nudity isn't inherently sexist -- no one has argued that it is, and I get indescribably tired of this straw (wo)man being flung around indiscriminately in these types of discussions. Sexism does not exist independent of context. If I apply for a job and am not hired because the director of HR thought I came across as shrill, that's not sexist *in a vacuum*. But that's just the thing -- life doesn't exist in a vacuum, and neither do games. Similarly, not all women's experience of sexism is the same. For the reviewer, the game connected with experiences of sexism SHE has encountered in her life. For other women, the correlation just isn't there. **No one is incorrect**. **No one's perspective here is "wrong"**.

What's so deeply troubling about the tone this discussion has taken is the umbrage at the very IDEA that any woman might have related the game's depiction of women to experiences of sexism that SHE HAS ACTUALLY HAD. Yes, how dare she have different life experiences than the majority of the game's audience. How dare she actually relate to a game as a human being and not as a mindless automaton who lives in a vacuum and has no real human experience. How dare she respect the game enough to treat it as a culturally-relevant work and therefore evaluate and critique it on the same terms she'd evaluate and critique any other piece of culture.

Here's the thing: she didn't say that it was impossible to enjoy the game without being a sexist pig (though admittedly some of the language in her review was off-putting). She didn't say that it was impossible to play the game and NOT connect it with past experiences of sexism. She most definitely didn't say that female nudity is inherently sexist. All she did was relay her experience. She shared that, to her, the game was alienating. And what does she get for sharing this? The same vitriol that most women with any visibility can look forward to any time they challenge the status quo.

This is actually a big issue both in the games industry and other places in life -- this resistance to women's experience. Practically every time a woman contributes her experience, if that experience points out any connection to sexism whatsoever, suddenly she's said something accusatory, or unfair, or mean, or PC, or any number of bizarre descriptors. NO. All she's done is communicated HER EXPERIENCE, and every time you try to silence her, YOU ARE PERPETUATING THE VERY SEXISM SHE WAS TALKING ABOUT. You're doing it by rejecting women's right to voice their experiences.

And no, quoting women who disagree with her doesn't mitigate this fact. All that does is send the message that women are allowed to have a voice if and only if they are saying things that "we" want them to say. This is every bit as marginalizing and dismissive as if you had literally said "hush now, men are talking."

I don't recall ever insinuating anything you're ranting about, and I'm insulted you've used my post as an excuse to spout it off. And the bold: What are you saying by 'those'? Do you mean to say that sexuality and sexism are one and the same? Did my comment offend you because I said sexuality and sexism are different?
 
What hypocrisy?
I am just saying the reason Odin Sphere is used as a good thing in that blog or article or whatever is because it's not the same thing as what is happening in Dragon's Crown. So it is not crazy for that person to like Odin Sphere but dislike Dragon's Crown.

I'm not even stating my position on it. And the existence of the elf does not undo these two anyway.

For the record, I have Dragon's Crown. I'm going to play it. I'm not on some moral outrage forum rant mode or whatever. But I'm also not blind or in denial of some obvious things going on with these designs.

You're throwing these accusations of hypocrisy at me because...?
Point taken, I do think the option to simply not play as a character with a bandonk, or megamams is a viable one.
 

Just read this

He loses me here:
Moving on, I have always held the belief, much like the vast majority of video game journalists, that the depiction of violence in video games, even when the player is participating in the violence, doesn’t cause violent behavior in real life. Similarly, I believe Dragon’s Crown’s depiction of women is as likely to cause someone to become misogynistic. There exists, in both cases, no evidence to support it. Calling out misogyny in video games, then, becomes a Cause (capital C) based on unsupported belief. Couple this with the fact that the countries with advanced enough technology to play these games, or watch these films, have the highest levels of male/female equality, and it becomes unnecessary. The misogyny in video games, then, could very well be a symptom of already present social blights. I believe this is definitely the case, and I’ll touch on this piece a bit later, but even this isn’t a reason to mire a review in unnecessary sociopolitical issues.

Violent media does not (okay probably does not) cause people to behave violently. But it does have a major impact in sculpting how a culture relates to violence and depictions of violence. By the same token sexism and objectification in media probably do not lead to misogyny behavior in real life (in a way we can easily or causally trace) but they absolutely do have a significant influence on the way our culture views women and handles depictions of women.
 
I can appreciate the criticisms levied against the depiction of women in Dragon's Crown.

But, I don't think it's particularly constructive to lead a crusade against a niche JRPG just because its connection to the overarching theme of "Misrepresentation of Women in Games" is more blatant. The issue is not resolved by crucifying this one game; if critics/activists are genuine in their thoughts and want actual, meaningful change, then this should be part of a consistent effort to address the systemic issues regarding women and the game industry.

"No representation of good female characters" should be the new "No online" or "No multiplayer". Start docking points from games without women and give points to games with good female representation. Support developers that seek and hire female talent and give them prominent development positions. Etc.

(...I actually don't personally agree with all of that last paragraph. I'm just saying, I think reviewers should be more consistent in their criteria and not just knock off points for the most egregious examples; the occasional 3/10 or what have you isn't effectively addressing the larger issue they're supposedly trying to bring attention to.)
 
I don't recall ever insinuating anything you're ranting about, and I'm insulted you've used my post as an excuse to spout it off. And the bold: What are you saying by 'those'? Do you mean to say that sexuality and sexism are one and the same? Did my comment offend you because I said sexuality and sexism are different?

Well, you've a right to feel whatever you feel, although I'm not clear on why you're insulted. I didn't intend to insult you, and I apologize that I apparently did so nonetheless. Perhaps you could clarify what part of my post was insulting to help me avoid unnecessary insults in the future?

As for an "excuse" to "spout off," I wasn't aware I needed an "excuse" to post my opinion in a public forum.

To answer your questions:

The "those" I was referring to were the two concepts you juxtaposed, namely "whether said sexuality constitutes sexism" on the one hand, and "whether someone should or shouldn't feel uncomfortable with it" on the other. My point was that you seemed to be positing a clear distinction where I'm not convinced one exists.

No, I don't mean that "sexuality" and sexism are one and the same. I was suggesting that a discussion about whether another person's point of view that the specific iteration of sexuality apparently expressed in the game might be sexist was valid, was not necessarily a wholly distinct discussion from one about whether or not said person "should or shouldn't" have certain feelings about it. In other words, I was suggesting that a lot of the denials of sexism I'm seeing in this discussion are as a matter of fact pretty much treading into territory of purporting to place a moral or valuative judgment on what she "ought" to feel.

I don't recall either feeling "offended" by your comment or, indeed, saying anything in my post from which someone might conclude that I was "offended." I don't know why on earth you would think I was somehow offended at the notion that sexism and sexuality are different, particularly in light of the fact that I already pointed out that those sorts of arguments are strawmen.
 
Yeah, loli flat chested women with big eyes like every generic anime out there is what the game really needed...

Because god knows that sexualizing little girls is better!
That artwork looks nothing like a little girl. Having small breasts != being a little girl, jesus...

When you get knocked down or stunned in Odin Sphere, you are not in any of these positions:
https://i.minus.com/i1Tt83dwPJqJ3.png
Jesus christ that's bad. >_<
 
Well, you've a right to feel whatever you feel, although I'm not clear on why you're insulted. I didn't intend to insult you, and I apologize that I apparently did so nonetheless. Perhaps you could clarify what part of my post was insulting to help me avoid unnecessary insults in the future?

As for an "excuse" to "spout off," I wasn't aware I needed an "excuse" to post my opinion in a public forum.

To answer your questions:

The "those" I was referring to were the two concepts you juxtaposed, namely "whether said sexuality constitutes sexism" on the one hand, and "whether someone should or shouldn't feel uncomfortable with it" on the other. My point was that you seemed to be positing a clear distinction where I'm not convinced one exists.

No, I don't mean that "sexuality" and sexism are one and the same. I was suggesting that a discussion about whether another person's point of view that the specific iteration of sexuality apparently expressed in the game might be sexist was not necessarily a wholly distinct discussion from one about whether or not said person "should or shouldn't" have certain feelings about it. In other words, I was suggesting that a lot of the denials of sexism I'm seeing in this discussion are as a matter of fact pretty much treading into territory of purporting to place a moral or valuative judgment on what she "ought" to feel.

I don't recall either feeling "offended" by your comment or, indeed, saying anything in my post from which someone might conclude that I was "offended." I don't know why on earth you would think I was somehow offended at the notion that sexism and sexuality are different, particularly in light of the fact that I already pointed out that those sorts of arguments are strawmen.

Bold: that you used my post as an excuse to spew your rant, and you've done so again, this time with added aggressiveness. Underlined: my post had no such implications of what people 'ought' to feel, and I'd appreciate you not using it as a platform for your agenda. There's plenty others to choose from that would far better illustrate the point you're trying to make.
 
Just because something is sexualized does not make it inherently sexist. Some of the strongest women in history were very sexual people. We should not demand that all women throughout fiction cover up and remain chaste in order to be positive role models, that's just insulting to all the women out there who love their sexuality.
 
I can appreciate the criticisms levied against the depiction of women in Dragon's Crown.

But, I don't think it's particularly constructive to lead a crusade against a niche JRPG just because its connection to the overarching theme of "Misrepresentation of Women in Games" is more blatant. The issue is not resolved by crucifying this one game; if critics/activists are genuine in their thoughts and want actual, meaningful change, then this should be part of a consistent effort to address the systemic issues regarding women and the game industry.

"No representation of good female characters" should be the new "No online" or "No multiplayer". Start docking points from games without women and give points to games with good female representation. Support developers that seek and hire female talent and give them prominent development positions. Etc.
I think people are trying to turn it into a constant campaign for change honestly. I certainly notice more of it in the last year then ever before. Its not easy though when the response to most of it tends to be "guys no, just stop talking"
 
Just because something is sexualized does not make it inherently sexist. Some of the strongest women in history were very sexual people. We should not demand that all women throughout fiction cover up and remain chaste in order to be positive role models, that's just insulting to all the women out there who love their sexuality.
Who are these depictions made by, and who are these depictions made for? These are not irrelevant questions, they're at the heart of what a lot of people have a problem with.
 
Just because something is sexualized does not make it inherently sexist. Some of the strongest women in history were very sexual people. We should not demand that all women throughout fiction cover up and remain chaste in order to be positive role models, that's just insulting to all the women out there who love their sexuality.

I agree completely with this post. Just look at Catherine of Russia, she was very sexual and is looked at as a great leader.

I played the game today, and really have not seen any "sexism", then again I am not looking for it either. I actually love the art style so far. Though fan based artwork in the art book is just funny.

Who are these depictions made by, and who are these depictions made for? These are not irrelevant questions, they're at the heart of what a lot of people have a problem with.

They are made for guys most likely, which there is nothing wrong with. At least imo there is nothing wrong with that.
 
But, I don't think it's particularly constructive to lead a crusade against a niche JRPG just because its connection to the overarching theme of "Misrepresentation of Women in Games" is more blatant. The issue is not resolved by crucifying this one game; if critics/activists are genuine in their thoughts and want actual, meaningful change, then this should be part of a consistent effort to address the systemic issues regarding women and the game industry.

Well, firstly, I'm not aware of any "crusade" here -- if anything, from what I can tell, the ones making this into an "issue" are the people who were upset about the review. The reviewer certainly didn't call for boycotts or any such nonsense.

Secondly, how do you know that people aren't criticizing other games just as much? Or that they aren't the same people? Do you have a google news alert for "women in games" such that you have a comprehensive sense of what people are saying about this and other games?

Finally, as to the "consistent effort" bit... the fact that I'm afraid to even type Anita Sarkeesian's name should be, but probably won't be, its own data point as to the parallel rejoinders that (1) people ARE doing that and (2) people who do that can look forward to a metric shit-ton of harassment, and NO, it's NOT reasonable to say "well, just put up with it if you care about this issue." The harassment itself IS part of the issue.
 
What's your stance on this game and its sexy women in compromising poses?

Game itself? I think I would own it already if I still had a Vita still. I love beat em ups and a lot of what I've seen of the game looks fucking amazing.

Use of women, honestly, I don't know. I think that sorceress is real fucking stupid looking. But, I'm not offended by it. At the same time, it's pretty obvious to me why others, especially women, could be offended.

I feel like the sexism in video games "debate" is extremely heated right now as the medium seems to have been being attacked for it for a while now, which has angered a lot of gamers. And of course there's not much honest conversation going on about it because both sides have seemingly dug in and won't budge an inch.

One side is most represented by people like Anita Sarkeesian who could seemingly find sexism in cloud formations, while the other side wants to believe that anyone who sees any problem is A) a white knight, or B) just an overly sensitive Anita Sarkeesian type. One sees problems everywhere, the other sees problems nowhere, and the world keeps spinning.
 
Well, firstly, I'm not aware of any "crusade" here -- if anything, from what I can tell, the ones making this into an "issue" are the people who were upset about the review. The reviewer certainly didn't call for boycotts or any such nonsense.

Secondly, how do you know that people aren't criticizing other games just as much? Or that they aren't the same people? Do you have a google news alert for "women in games" such that you have a comprehensive sense of what people are saying about this and other games?

Finally, as to the "consistent effort" bit... the fact that I'm afraid to even type Anita Sarkeesian's name should be, but probably won't be, its own data point as to the parallel rejoinders that (1) people ARE doing that and (2) people who do that can look forward to a metric shit-ton of harassment, and NO, it's NOT reasonable to say "well, just put up with it if you care about this issue." The harassment itself IS part of the issue.

You cannot stop the internet from being the internet. There will always be harassment for somebody that is talking about an issue of some sort. I hate to say that, but it is true. Jim sterling still gets harassment daily. It isn't only a women issue, it just happens people take it way farther against women for some reason.
 
Bold: that you used my post as an excuse to spew your rant, and you've done so again, this time with added aggressiveness. Underlined: my post had no such implications of what people 'ought' to feel, and I'd appreciate you not using it as a platform for your agenda. There's plenty others to choose from that would far better illustrate the point you're trying to make.

What? What about my comment was remotely "aggressive"? And if you read my comment more carefully, you'll see that I wasn't targeting your comment. I was pointing out that your comment was incorrectly characterizing the DISCUSSION. As in, things OTHER people had said. It's tempting to make an ironic joke here about hypersensitivity, and I guess by referencing it I've kind of done that. Ah well.

And what, pray tell, is my "agenda"? You're making a lot of assumptions here.

It seems you're trying to goad me into a fight for some reason. Why?
 
While this is true, it has nothing to do with the matter at hand. Again, this isn't about whether or not it's "okay" to show scantily-clad women.

But it basically what the game does...show women with few clothes and focussing in her "attributes".

It's taking a work in its entirety and noticing something that is frankly pretty damned noticeable, and commenting about it.

So it's sexist. Thank god it wasn't a binary thing.

Anyway, I think looking at two female character and a bunch of NPC clothes and poses can be hardly be seen as "taking a work in it's enterity". Using the damsel in distress troupe to calify the game as sexist is was and will be quite a strawman argument to call something sexist. Using that troupe does not mean is sexists. Painting females in sexy poses like in the classic art is neither sexist.

It's sexuality, not sexism.

Taking the whole industry situation where the predominant use of damsel in distress troupe (or suposedly predominant) and lack of empowered females is the thing that makes the industry sexist.

This game on it's own it is not.

If anything, it's the attacks on the review that fall into the general rubric of "games need to be a special category," because they implicitly suggest that games should get a special "get-out-of-sexism-free" card that other media don't (and if you aren't aware of criticisms of sexism in other media, you frankly aren't paying enough attention to validate even HAVING an opinion about these issues).


Again, who said gaming have to be on it's own category? People recognized that (too much sexuality on games) is a problem within the industry, yeah, but is not a problem within the games. You know what a truly sexist game was? Metroid Other M. That game is a truly aberration in female portrayal in a game. Did you see any review calling it out (onlye G4.com)? The answer is NOPE. That's a game that deserved any female gamer vitriolic hate it could gather. Definetly GAF and many other people didn't wanted to give a "get-out-of-sexism-free" card it was the media (the one so adamant to go about all those peeky japanese games showing female with little clothes) who largerly ignored the game sexism.

And while it might be true that other media might be criticized for sexism. (I rarely see it in my country) , is not at the level of what gaming is suffering and much less because of scantily-clad women, which, you may negate it or not, but still the main point of criticizing the game suffers.

Interestingly enough we're reaching a point where it seems like actual depictions of sex are becoming less problematic for a lot of people but when they perceive objectification through the use of sexual aesthetics in situations that don't "make sense" (read: not a sex scene) it bothers them

I've got some theories about this, mostly related to the fact that the "passive" nature of the relationship between the viewer and the subject has greater overtones of predatory voyeurism and control, whereas a scene with two active participants is more about their relationship, but I don't quite know where to look for the literature to see if anyone agrees with me (aside from the very basic Foucauldian gaze stuff and image theory in general)

This would definetly a nice conversation, although it may catch me very outside of my knowledges...I don't feel like ding it, though...too tired lol

That artwork looks nothing like a little girl. Having small breasts != being a little girl, jesus...

Given Da Vinci body proportions, damned me if that dosn't look like a body of an underaged girl. Even if she's not mean to be one, is clearly that some loli fetish is trying to fullfill. I would defend that people can like those designs all they want, but to say they are better just because they lack tits....
 
You cannot stop the internet from being the internet. There will always be harassment for somebody that is talking about an issue of some sort. I hate to say that, but it is true. Jim sterling still gets harassment daily. It isn't only a women issue, it just happens people take it way farther against women for some reason.

Oh hey, look, it's almost like you said exactly what I predicted someone would. Sigh...

No one has said that women are the only ones on the internet who ever face harassment. This is yet ANOTHER straw man. Folks, we can't have a discussion if we're going to keep misconstruing arguments like this.
 
I agree with you pretty much, except I don't think much will come of just saying "we demand more games without sexually objectified women!". Were it so easy. The flaw I find in your reasoning that 'men can stand to do a better job of not objectifying women' is that sex is a part of the male psyche and there are very strong responses to it. It's not something that's going to go away, so while there will be (and are) developers who wish to create a game that doesn't utilize sex appeal, there will always be many who don't.

okay, but girls like playing games, too. So when there's a systematic tendency of making things for the male response (and not even a response that all males will give), you're basically telling a huge chunk of people to go do something else because this isn't for you. There are plenty of women (and men) who find that kind of pandering to be alienating, and ultimately they might not want to play the game.

I figure most of the people who are focusing on the depiction of women in DC aren't planning to buy it, so she's preaching to the choir.

Or they're going to buy it, play it, and sigh and facepalm and bear the dumb shit to enjoy what looks to be a fun game otherwise. But they wont give it a 9/10.

Well, you could argue about how , no matter how silly breast enlargement is, it does not make the character weaker or less on par with men or how crude humor in comics does not encourage men to sexually assault women at cons or many other things.
But it's not really worth it.

except one of those things actually happens.....what was the point of this comparison again?

I can't take dragon's crown nay sayers seriously (unless they complain about gameplay). This whole matter seems highly contrived and from my point of view not worth debating/talking to others about as it would just be a painful exercise.

Okay, thanks for the update

Are you telling me that GoT sex scenes were made for both male and female gazes? I find that incredible innacurate when 90% of nudity is dominated by female bodies...

And what's the larger cultural context here?

I understand that fanservice is a great part on Japanese gaming, which normally involves women with few clothes. The same is almost true in a large part of the west media, and gaming, as well...

I'm pretty sure he meant that it's dominated by male gaze. Fan service is honestly pretty lame and always feels like a very dumb and desperate creative decision.

Are we reading the same thread? The game is sexual, fantasy sexual admittedly to the extreme, but calling it sexist because of it is a slippery slope.

It's more that it contributes to the sexist state of videogames. Is it that hard to see how this, along with many other games, do more to alienate girls from videogames?


God damn, excellent post
 
I think people are trying to turn it into a constant campaign for change honestly. I certainly notice more of it in the last year then ever before. Its not easy though when the response to most of it tends to be "guys no, just stop talking"

Which is fine, but I'm not seeing these discussions elsewhere. (Maybe I'm just not paying attention?)

For example, GTAV seems to have missed an opportunity to have made one of its trio of protagonists a good female character. And going by past entries, it's not terribly likely that the representation of women in the game will be overly positive. (Disclaimer: Did not play IV, don't know much about V beyond the major bullet points.)

Will GTAV be used as a similar soapbox? Or are we going to ignore it simply because it doesn't prominently feature a large-breasted woman?

And not just GTAV, but nearly any AAA game in today's industry.
 
Who are these depictions made by, and who are these depictions made for? These are not irrelevant questions, they're at the heart of what a lot of people have a problem with.

These depictions are quite obviously made to be titillating in a very over the top fashion, in line with everything else in the game, oozing sexuality and absurdity simultaneously. Is it necessarily sexist to have a female be titillating however? Does the characters status as something sexual render them incapable of being something more?
 
Just because something is sexualized does not make it inherently sexist. Some of the strongest women in history were very sexual people. We should not demand that all women throughout fiction cover up and remain chaste in order to be positive role models, that's just insulting to all the women out there who love their sexuality.

These strong women in history you are talking about all had control over their own bodies and lives. The characters in Dragon's Crown were drawn by men to cater to men.

This shit doesn't exist in a bubble. Negative depictions of women occur in media all the time and so it's pretty much fucking impossible to look at this and think "This is just an empowered, sex-positive woman." Japan is notoriously shitty when it comes to its treatment of women too.
 
Oh hey, look, it's almost like you said exactly what I predicted someone would. Sigh...

No one has said that women are the only ones on the internet who ever face harassment. This is yet ANOTHER straw man. Folks, we can't have a discussion if we're going to keep misconstruing arguments like this.

A discussion will not ever be taken seriously about this though, go on /V and look at how they are laughing at you guys/gals in this thread. It will not happen. There are to many assholes to stop this behavior. The only way it will happen is if there is a punishment for doing so. I am just telling the truth, you can have the discussion, but the harassment will never stop, nor will the internet assholes. The internet is a great thing, that sometimes can be a terrible thing.

I am not saying the discussion shouldn't be had by the way, I am just a realist. Discuss away, but things will more then likely never change.
 
These strong women in history you are talking about all had control over their own bodies and lives. The characters in Dragon's Crown were drawn by men to cater to men.

If a man makes a strong, sexualized female character it must be sexist? Or because a character is found to be tittilating by a male audience it renders her naught more than an object?
 
I'm pretty sure he meant that it's dominated by male gaze. Fan service is honestly pretty lame and always feels like a very dumb and desperate creative decision.

Maybe, I don't have such an extreme opinion against fanservice, but even if it's bad from a creative point, dosn't mean is inherently bad.
 
If a man makes a strong, sexualized female character it must be sexist? Or because a character is found to be tittilating by a male audience it renders her naught more than an object?

Not necessarily, but it does nullify the argument that the character is doing it of her own volition to be in control of her own sexuality. Fictional characters don't have free will.
 
What? What about my comment was remotely "aggressive"? And if you read my comment more carefully, you'll see that I wasn't targeting your comment. I was pointing out that your comment was incorrectly characterizing the DISCUSSION. As in, things OTHER people had said. It's tempting to make an ironic joke here about hypersensitivity, and I guess by referencing it I've kind of done that. Ah well.

And what, pray tell, is my "agenda"? You're making a lot of assumptions here.

It seems you're trying to goad me into a fight for some reason. Why?

It did not incorrectly characterize anything. The debate is on two fronts, whether the game and its sexual aspects are sexist and in the case of this thread, people's right to feel uncomfortable with said aspects and voice them. At the time of that post the discussion had turned to the former. It has since returned to the latter, mostly.

Your agenda:

This is actually a big issue both in the games industry and other places in life -- this resistance to women's experience. Practically every time a woman contributes her experience, if that experience points out any connection to sexism whatsoever, suddenly she's said something accusatory, or unfair, or mean, or PC, or any number of bizarre descriptors. NO. All she's done is communicated HER EXPERIENCE, and every time you try to silence her, YOU ARE PERPETUATING THE VERY SEXISM SHE WAS TALKING ABOUT. You're doing it by rejecting women's right to voice their experiences.

And as far as I can tell, -you- are the one being defensive now and attempting to turn this into an argument.
 
Which is fine, but I'm not seeing these discussions elsewhere. (Maybe I'm just not paying attention?)

For example, GTAV seems to have missed an opportunity to have made one of its trio of protagonists a good female character. And going by past entries, it's not terribly likely that the representation of women in the game will be overly positive. (Disclaimer: Did not play IV, don't know much about V beyond the major bullet points.)

Will GTAV be used as a similar soapbox? Or are we going to ignore it simply because it doesn't prominently feature a large-breasted woman?

And not just GTAV, but nearly any AAA game in today's industry.

Other games aren't ignored, those arguments are made all the time. You may have noticed that there is a certain hotly contested and polarizing (and slow-to-come-out) video series about pointing out all these sexist flaws in videogames....and everyone opposed to the idea pulls any old reason out of their ass to try and justify why the status quo is fine as it is.

Example: Why can't we have a Zelda game with Zelda as the hero? She's the titular character and can't get a (good) adventure of her own?

Cue 10,000 weak fan-fiction reasons for why Zelda can't possibly be a hero, despite the fact that she has been a ninja and a pirate in her other lives.


As for GTA, I think discerning people have already figured out that Rockstar has shit writers and just aren't going to hold their breath for anything brilliant from them.

These depictions are quite obviously made to be titillating in a very over the top fashion, in line with everything else in the game, oozing sexuality and absurdity simultaneously. Is it necessarily sexist to have a female be titillating however? Does the characters status as something sexual render them incapable of being something more?

Videogames (and most other media) as a whole seem to think so, yes. It's not necessarily sexist for a female to be titillating. But look around at everything that gets made and you'll see that the majority of females are made to be that way...and there's the sexism.
 
Just a question for those in this thread, for my curiosity:

If a man draws/writes pornography, featuring men and women, with the express intent of arousal, does that mean either the author or the work is sexist?
 
I think the choice of this game for all this hoopla is bizarre and contrived.

It is an easy target tbh, niche Japanese developer with a small publisher. I really doubt we would hear about this if it was EA or Activision tbh. Its a conspiracy theory sure, but I really do feel that way.
 
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