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HEAVY SPOILERS ON RABUM ALAL.

So are we to assume that

Spoiler

Doom is not the cause of the incursions? Molecule Man makes it sound that even they are unable to defeat the Beyonders and Ivory Kings. Or is this implying that Doom is causing the incursions as a means of killing the Beyonders?

I'm still torn on this and IMO, that might be the biggest reveal yet

Spoiler

Most of the information we've had so far was from that one Black Swan. They way it was presented made it sound like certain fact wrapped in weird Sumerian lore.
Given that the swans are just a cult dedicated to Doom, it's entirely possible their lore contains half-truths.

On the one hand, everything points to Doom setting off the incursion chain of events. Not necessarily knowingly mind you.
On the other hand, knowing Doom, I can't imagine his motive would be the end of everything. My intuition is the same as yours: the initial menace to everything is the Beyonders, Doom became RA to be able to stop them, even if it meant the destruction of universes. That means his endgame would not be the end of everything.
He might have enjoyed ruining an infinite number of heroes by forcing them to become mass murderers though. Thematically, that greater good at the expense of people, that morality of Kings is absolutely Doom.

Edit: yeah, Memento Mori, I realized that as I was typing this answer.

That page is going to look like an FBI declassified document lol.

 

[PhoncipleBone]

Spoiler

So, did Doom do all this upon learning of the Incursions and then created the religion to spread the gospel of him across the stars in an effort to get the Beyonders and Mapmakers to fight each other, using some wibbly wobbly timey wimey from Molecule Man to pull it off?

Or, did Doom start the religion to make the Beyonders and Mapmakers kill each other off and knew the incursions would be a side effect of it all? He started it to have everything from every plane of existence that could ever possibly defeat him get wiped out. He discovered the trick to killing every single godlike race and being and set all this in motion so that he reigns supreme in the end.

And it makes me question if Doom was putting on a show earlier when the incursion happened over Latveria and when Reed and co. were visiting and Doom played ignorant.

I will admit, when the page revealing Doom came up, I was waiting for him to explain it as it was an alt Doom where he never lost the Beyonder's powers from the original Secret Wars.

Either way, great reveal, and now I have even more questions.

 

[ghostmind]

Spoiler

So, did Doom do all this upon learning of the Incursions and then created the religion to spread the gospel of him across the stars in an effort to get the Beyonders and Mapmakers to fight each other, using some wibbly wobbly timey wimey from Molecule Man to pull it off?

Or, did Doom start the religion to make the Beyonders and Mapmakers kill each other off and knew the incursions would be a side effect of it all? He started it to have everything from every plane of existence that could ever possibly defeat him get wiped out. He discovered the trick to killing every single godlike race and being and set all this in motion so that he reigns supreme in the end.

And it makes me question if Doom was putting on a show earlier when the incursion happened over Latveria and when Reed and co. were visiting and Doom played ignorant.

I will admit, when the page revealing Doom came up, I was waiting for him to explain it as it was an alt Doom where he never lost the Beyonder's powers from the original Secret Wars.

Either way, great reveal, and now I have even more questions.

Spoiler

Maybe it is Doom from the original Secret Wars. He does tell Strange that it has been a while since he last saw him.

That would also explain how Doom has enough power to go against the Beyonders

 

[Afrodium]

Spoiler

So, did Doom do all this upon learning of the Incursions and then created the religion to spread the gospel of him across the stars in an effort to get the Beyonders and Mapmakers to fight each other, using some wibbly wobbly timey wimey from Molecule Man to pull it off?

Or, did Doom start the religion to make the Beyonders and Mapmakers kill each other off and knew the incursions would be a side effect of it all? He started it to have everything from every plane of existence that could ever possibly defeat him get wiped out. He discovered the trick to killing every single godlike race and being and set all this in motion so that he reigns supreme in the end.

And it makes me question if Doom was putting on a show earlier when the incursion happened over Latveria and when Reed and co. were visiting and Doom played ignorant.

I will admit, when the page revealing Doom came up, I was waiting for him to explain it as it was an alt Doom where he never lost the Beyonder's powers from the original Secret Wars.

Either way, great reveal, and now I have even more questions.

Spoiler

At the time of the Latveria incursion I think that Doom was not yet Rabum Alal (well, he was, but he didn't know it yet. Time travel is weird). In New Avengers 29 we see him and molecule man digging deep into reality, and that's the last we'd seen of them until now. Whatever they started in NA 29 must've resulted in some time travel shenanigans in which Doom could create the pocket universe with the Library and Swans, or found it already existing and shaped to his desires.

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

Fucking lol

Spoiler

New character my ass. But if you have to use an existing one then why not Doom! Magnificent.

Also, I thought time moved differently in some realities, which might explain Doom.

 

[shadyspace]

Fucking lol

Spoiler

New character my ass. But if you have to use an existing one then why not Doom! Magnificent.

Spoiler

Did you actually expect/want one? It would have been a huge let down of a reveal for me if it was a new character

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

Spoiler

Did you actually expect/want one? It would have been a huge let down of a reveal for me if it was a new character

That's what I heard in this thread.

New Avengers #31-

Spoiler

Was I the only who laughed?

Nope.

 

[Dunbar]

So even with that reveal,

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what was going on in the final page with what looked like the Beyonders about to face off with the Asgardians

?

 

[shadyspace]

So even with that reveal,

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what was going on in the final page with what looked like the Beyonders about to face off with the Asgardians

?

That was the

Spoiler

Multiversal Avengers team

 

[Deadly]

Wow the reveal is full of mind fuckkkk.

After the last issue of New Avengers, I mean how fucked is Thor and gang? Basically the Beyonders blink and cya!

 

[B-Dubs]

Wow the reveal is full of mind fuckkkk.

After the last issue of New Avengers, I mean how fucked is Thor and gang? Basically the Beyonders blink and cya!

Thor and Hyperion might be able to give them a decent fight, I mean one's a god and the other's strong enough to survive an incursion. If anyone stands a chance of beating the Beyonders it's going to be the Multiversal Avenger's team. Maybe they'll get lucky and the Beyonders will be weak from all the god killing.

 

[Palette Swap]

Haha. I just remembered a post I made earlier ITT, which looks silly now.

Spoiler

Post #1369.

Never underestimate Doom.

Thor and Hyperion might be able to give them a decent fight, I mean one's a god and the other's strong enough to survive an incursion. If anyone stands a chance of beating the Beyonders it's going to be the Multiversal Avenger's team. Maybe they'll get lucky and the Beyonders will be weak from all the god killing.

I'd love to see them take one Beyonder down. At the very least, they might be able to hold for a bit.

 

[The Silver]

All hail Rabum Alal

 

[Palette Swap]

We all know how that GIF should be edited lol.

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

Thor and Hyperion might be able to give them a decent fight, I mean one's a god and the other's strong enough to survive an incursion. If anyone stands a chance of beating the Beyonders it's going to be the Multiversal Avenger's team. Maybe they'll get lucky and the Beyonders will be weak from all the god killing.

The Asgardian gods couldn't defeat the Celestials' 3rd and 4th host when they arrived on Earth. The Beyonders on the other hand killed all the Celestials and even the Living Tribunal.

 

[Loke13]

Thor and Hyperion might be able to give them a decent fight, I mean one's a god and the other's strong enough to survive an incursion. If anyone stands a chance of beating the Beyonders it's going to be the Multiversal Avenger's team. Maybe they'll get lucky and the Beyonders will be weak from all the god killing.

Lol what? The Beyonders killed the Living Tribunal. They don't have a snowballs chance in hell.

 

[Rollo Tomasi]

Just read New Avengers 31...

I think I'm gonna need some time to process this.

 

[Sinatar]

Lol what? The Beyonders killed the Living Tribunal. They don't have a snowballs chance in hell.

Yea Thor and Hyperion would be paste in an instant.

 

[Manmademan]

Thor and Hyperion might be able to give them a decent fight, I mean one's a god and the other's strong enough to survive an incursion. If anyone stands a chance of beating the Beyonders it's going to be the Multiversal Avenger's team. Maybe they'll get lucky and the Beyonders will be weak from all the god killing.

That avengers team is beyond screwed. Beyonders just wiped out every celestial that exists. Asgardians are less than nothing.

Curious to see the endgame here.

 

[Sadist]

Guys, I'm not joking

Spoiler

When Strange got dragged to Rabum Alal I kind of entertained the thought of Rabum being Doom. "Would be fun to see Stephen get all whaaaaat!? But hey, how would Hickman pull thi- oh" So yeah, I need a minute now. Damn.

 

[whipihguh]

Holy shit.

Well, I certainly didn't expect that.

Spoiler

I'm excited to see the time travel shenanigans that lead to Dr. Doom becoming Rabum Alal.

 

[Zeus Molecules]

Spoiler

I really need hickman to show me how this latest twist happened I was pretty sure it the beyonder "child unit". However this ending fits into the horror motif Hickman said he wanted. There is no one out there who can stop the beyonders from doing whatever it is that they have decided to do

Spoiler

Also I am now almost completely certain all the black swans are alternate versions of valeria richards. I am also wondering if all of this is due to Doom making his own universe back in Hickmans FF run

 

[kswiston]

I predicted this twist a few pages back. My conviction would have been stronger if I didn't listen to all of you regarding past Hickman interviews.

I knew I was going to be right the further into the issue I got.

Spoiler

The cover gave it away months ago in my opinion. No way that Doom style hood wasn't Doom's. Also, it makes sense given the first Secret Wars

 

[shadyspace]

If we're moving onto to bragging I myself would like it known that I never once bought into the idea of it being a new character.

 

[Mudcrab]

What in the ever-loving fuck? That's one hell of a reveal.

Spoiler

We've been completely had, and Nexus and Shady are right. This is way better than some brand new OP character AND it's fitting that Doom is this type of player going into Secret Wars.

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"I want you to tell me a story Mr. Reece and I want it to be true."

but seriously, what?

 

[Isak_Borg]

Spoiler

Surprised no one gets it... I just reread hickmans FF run and Doom gets the gauntlet and has access to bridges into every multiverse. I do realize gauntlet only works in the universe it is from but he did create a race and they worshipped him until they dethroned him.

During the time he was probably up to a lot of shenigans with access to a bridge.

 

[kswiston]

If we're moving onto to bragging I myself would like it known that I never once bought into the idea of it being a new character.

I did some searching to see if the name was an anagram or had some meaning in a different language, but came up with nothing. I'm curious to know where Hickman got the name.

 

[Mudcrab]

Spoiler

Surprised no one gets it... I just reread hickmans FF run and Doom gets the gauntlet and has access to bridges into every multiverse. I do realize gauntlet only works in the universe it is from but he did create a race and they worshipped him until they dethroned him.

During the time he was probably up to a lot of shenigans with access to a bridge.

Spoiler

That all happened before the Latveria Incursion and he still went through all that trouble with Molecule Man to get to where he is now. Then again we don't know how Doom found MM so maybe it's more him than Doom?

 

[Isak_Borg]

Spoiler

That all happened before the Latveria Incursion and he still went through all that trouble with Molecule Man to get to where he is now. Then again we don't know how Doom found MM so maybe it's more him than Doom?

Spoiler

Doom could have realized what he did spiraled out of control and then went to molecule man. Have to remember first couple of issues of FF deal with the multiverse and basically ends with Doom trapped in it.

There are so many hints of what is going on in that FF run amazing how long he has been working on this story.

 

[Mudcrab]

I actually really dig this explanation:

Spoiler

Blue incursions = caused by Beyonders Red incursions = caused by Doom Blue incursions = Universes destroyed Red incursions = Universes made into Battleworld

Doom went back in time to the beginning to see what was causing it all, realized the Beyonders were fucking everything up so started making his own incursions to make the best heroes from all the Multiverse to form the perfect army against the Beyonders.

 

[Isak_Borg]

I actually really dig this explanation:

That is totally in the FF run when There is an excursion in the bridge space.

 

[PhoncipleBone]

I actually really dig this explanation:

I like that too.

 

[shadyspace]

I actually really dig this explanation:

Yup, that's great.

 

[Mudcrab]

Also that line on the opening recap page about Black Swan and the truth,

Spoiler

is probably a reference that the Black Swans are being completely mislead by Doom for his own reasons and Hickman poking fun at us for falling for his own lie.

Another fun theory that ties into FF:

Spoiler

"I think that we have our answer now. Fantastic Four 605.1 has us witness the destruction of an Earth, and a whole Universe, when a Reed/Doom hybrid loses control of an Infinity Gauntlet while under assault by that world's Avengers. That would probably be the destroyed Earth.

On it's own, that wouldn't have caused the incursions, but it almost certainly would have shocked the hell out of the Ivory Kings. We've seen Earth at the center of events that could have resulted in the death of everything before (Marvel 1602, Age of Apocalypse, possibly Age of Ultron). The 616 Earth even beat the Beyonder (one of their child units). It is likely that the Ivory Kings decided to heck with this. They decided to tear down the multiverse and build something better using the Map Makers to ensure they get everything.

Doom in Fantastic Four 611 finds a gauntlet and creates a Universe in his image in the place of the destroyed universe. As the Multiverse had already contracted, the forced in Universe could have caused the first Incursions by pushing together Earths "close" to each other. Thus starts the Incursions thanks to Doom.

Meanwhile, during Time Runs Out, Owen Reese the Molecule Man hints to Doom that he has a bigger role in what is happening than even he realizes and takes Doom back "to the beginning." There Doom learns two important things: His role in what happened and the fact the Ivory Kings have started to work towards destroying it all.

Doom realizes that even with Owen to back him up, he can not take on the Ivory Kings alone. He barely survived alone against 4 mad Celestials and so Doom sees an opportunity with the Incursions. Using the Swans (who he recruits using the Library of Worlds built by the Ivory Kings), Doom starts the great Game. The Swans will find each Universes Manifold, use the Manifold to CONTINUE to ensure Incursions happen, and build up an army of heroes and villains as the Incursions play out. Each destroyed Earth will leave behind a small trace on the victor allowing them to pick up rements of each Universe as they travel through the Incursions. Doom can then build Battleword, and his army, using those remnants.

This is where Val and Franklin come in. Franklin will do the actual building of Battleworld using the Rogue Planet he helps ensure goes back in time. Val is doing a lot of the planning behind the scenes to make this plan come to fruition. Once Doom, Val, Franklin, and Owen build the Battleworld, they can use the army of heroes and villains to take on the Ivory Kings."

The Fantastic Four

 

[Isak_Borg]

Also that line on the opening recap page about Black Swan and the truth,

Spoiler

is probably a reference that the Black Swans are being completely mislead by Doom for his own reasons and Hickman poking fun at us for falling for his own lie.

Another fun theory that ties into FF:

I agree with most of the CBR theory.

 

[Popstar]

.

 

[Palette Swap]

I think the CBR theory is on the money on at least one thing:

Spoiler

Battleworld is Doom's weapon to fight the Beyonders and he's been using the incursions to assemble a huge Avengers machine. Except it's a Doom device.

Secret Wars is going to be awesome.

At least Brevoort confirms some stuff: http://m.ign.com/articles/2015/03/11/avengers-villain-finally-revealed-in-new-avengers-30

Spoiler

The loop understanding is the correct one, which isn't a huge surprise considering 2 issues ago he was traveling back in time with Reece.

 

[Mudcrab]

Fucking Hickman...

Spoiler

Spoilers!

 

[crimsonspider89]

It was also foreshadowed early in Avengers with

Spoiler

One is life and one is death line that was referring to Tony/Steve was also referring to Reed and Doom. Ultimate Reed being the Maker and Doom being the Great Destroyer.

 

[shadyspace]

Fucking Hickman...

Spoiler

Spoilers!

How in the hell did nobody spot this

 

[Coriolanus]

Think it was the first time ever that i was legit surprised by a comic reveal. #rabumalaltoogood etc etc

Loved that CBR theory. Here's hoping it's true.

 

[thetrin]

Read #31 just before bed last night. Holy shit. WHAT A FUCKING REVEAL.

 

[fallengorn]

Spoiler

Further into the issue I went I was like, "It's going to be Doom isn't it?" and sure enough.

Doom masterminding Battleworld makes sense to me, but I still don't see how it can take down the Beyonders.

 

[Coriolanus]

Spoiler

but I still don't see how it can take down the Beyonders.

 

[PhoncipleBone]

Think it was the first time ever that i was legit surprised by a comic reveal. #rabumalaltoogood etc etc

Loved that CBR theory. Here's hoping it's true.

Best surprise for me is still the reveal at the end of Thunderbolts #1

 

[Mudcrab]

Spoiler

Further into the issue I went I was like, "It's going to be Doom isn't it?" and sure enough.

Doom masterminding Battleworld makes sense to me, but I still don't see how it can take down the Beyonders.

Spoiler

It's all probably part of some wild gambit. Even the Molecule Man was like "ehh I don't think we can beat the Beyonders."

 

[thetrin]

Suddenly I'm DYING to read the next issue. I love that this issue was a 25 page Rabum Alal reveal.

 

[slightconfuse]

Amazing reveal

This article sheds some light

http://www.ign.com/articles/2015/03/11/avengers-villain-finally-revealed-in-new-avengers-30

 

[Mudcrab]

lol

Well, it means, if nothing else, that all of those people, who for weeks and months have been worried and outraged and fearful that the Fantastic Four and their family of characters aren't going to have a big role to play in Secret Wars, feel a little silly right now. [Laughs] Because that is clearly not the case.

 

[PhoncipleBone]

Amazing reveal

This article sheds some light

http://www.ign.com/articles/2015/03/11/avengers-villain-finally-revealed-in-new-avengers-30

Thanks for the link!

lol

Who the hell thought the FF wouldn't play a big part? You knew Reed was gonna at least.