RoadHazard
Gold Member
Why would a woman want to date a man? Men are swine.
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Just finished Horizon Burning Shores and... can we talk about a particular lack of balance in the portrayal of relationships in video games?
- Thread starter Drizzlehell
- Start date
Interfectum
Member
Games of Today
Member
It's definitely because the majority of gamers are males who have no intention of even playing as a gay male character.
Both men and women are much more open to gay relationships between females than males. Men fetishize lesbian porn, not gay men porn.
I think some of the best representations of gayness have been in the Last of Us with Bill and in the DLC with Ellie. But they went overboard with it in Part 2. No one would be worrying about being trans in an apocalypse lmao. And just because Ellie kissed her best friend in Part 1 doesn't mean she needs to be a full blown lesbian.
I also think the show Severance on Apple TV did a great job with male gay characters. Though of course I personally will never be comfortable with watching men kiss each other because it's just not natural.
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TGO
Hype Train conductor. Works harder than it steams.
Well I'd imagine the response would be the same with any medium....."why did they include this?
How does this add anything to the story"
Which is the usual response.
But now if when they do it with LGBTQ stuff you can't even say that because if you do you're a homophobe or some shit like that.
But I don't know what you're trying to suggest, is it that people are more accepting of lesbian acts on screen than others?
A useless eye rolling sex scene is a useless eye rolling scene regardless of the contents and who it's between.
But to answer your question?
Probably search for it on PornHub
Games of Today
Member
LMFAO wait a minute when did they say that her clone was lesbian? Are you referring to Beta? Or Elizabeth Sobek? That's fucking hilarious.
Gaiff
SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
Typo from SlimySnake but yes, Elisabeth Sobeck, the woman Aloy was cloned from, dated a woman.
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Games of Today
Member
So funny. I think I don kind of remember that. It's probably a similar situation to TLOUS Part 1 and 2.
Most likely a new writer that wanted to inject some gayness into the game. And what corporate studio would deny that at this point.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Ending Spoilers for HFW but yes, it was revealed that Sobek dated Tilda. Carrie Anne Moss' character but chose not to go with her to the new planet. Carrie Anne Moss was upset at being dumped so she came back a thousand years later and tried to kidnap her so she could rape her for all eternity. That was literally the final boss fight. Aloy fighting a lesbian who was trying to force herself on her.
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X-Wing
Member
You only have an example to back this?
Also you can deny romance in Burning Shores.
Drizzlehell
Banned
Drizzlehell
Banned
Don't give me that shit. Unless you've been sleeping under a rock for the past decade, it's common knowledge and there are plenty of examples, some of which were already mentioned ITT.
X-Wing
Member
"it's common knowledge". right... Lesbian romance is an attempt to satisfy male sexual fantasy, deal with it.
Drizzlehell
Banned
Well, first of all, I never made any mention of that second part of what you said in my OP. It's something that was said in the followup discussion.
And secondly - yeah, frequent representation of female gay romances in video games is common knowledge. And I'm not gonna play this game with you. You're just being that guy. That annoying fucker who comes into a thread asking for receipts, even though the topic that's being discussed doesn't really require any proof because it's a pretty common trope that most people are already familiar with. Google your own examples and then return to present your own argument, if you so desire. I'm not gonna do your job for you.
Fess
Member
People are weird now, don’t even bother trying to understand how they’re thinking with these questions, it’s like plain old hetero sex is awkward now or something, no wonder birth rates are dropping in the west.
And if people are roleplaying as Lara when they play a Tomb Raider and think it’s weird to romance a guy. Just don’t roleplay. It’s not a RPG. Let Lara get the d if she wants it, I bet Jonah would’ve been fun. Where is the problem?
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I understand that a lot of people on this site hate the idea and implementation of diversity for the sake of diversity, but too many of you are ignoring logic to make this seem like yet another woke thing.
It's incredibly simple; straight men are still the dominant demographic for AAA games and, whether true or not, AAA publishers don't think straight men want to see or try to empathize with the character they're playing as flirting with, making out with, or having sex with a male character. So making the female lead of your AAA games heterosexual, in their eyes (again, maybe justifiably, maybe not), is to put a limit on sales.
It's incredibly simple; straight men are still the dominant demographic for AAA games and, whether true or not, AAA publishers don't think straight men want to see or try to empathize with the character they're playing as flirting with, making out with, or having sex with a male character. So making the female lead of your AAA games heterosexual, in their eyes (again, maybe justifiably, maybe not), is to put a limit on sales.
Games of Today
Member
Dude oh my god. Yea I beat the game and I guess I wasn't really paying attention to that plot beat. But now I may have to play it again just to laugh at that!
Last Hearth
Member
I don’t think we need to over think this. The fact of the matter is the overwhelming majority of people who play these games are young to middle aged males. So even if the protagonist they play as is a female, a lot of them are not interested in playing the protagonist pursuing a romantic relationship with a guy.
So they often put in a female as the protagonist’s love interest figuring that would be more palatable to them, and at the same time get diversity bonus points. So two birds with one stone.
For me, I think romances are over done. It make sense for long story driven RPGs. But I really don’t know why every action game feels the need to shoehorn in a romance subplot.
So they often put in a female as the protagonist’s love interest figuring that would be more palatable to them, and at the same time get diversity bonus points. So two birds with one stone.
For me, I think romances are over done. It make sense for long story driven RPGs. But I really don’t know why every action game feels the need to shoehorn in a romance subplot.
Azurro
Banned
Do you coordinate your POVs with other people or live in some strange social bubble? Your example is extremely dishonest, if you bother to look at what normal men that like lesbian scenes like, you'll find several elements in common: extremely beautiful women, one or both of them with a risque personality, they are voluptuous and dress in a very sexualized way, their interaction focuses on the sexual aspects of their lesbianism rather than the actual human personalities and conflicts.
There is a participation from the male observer, from a voyeuristic aspect (the women/camera let him watch the most sexual acts), an ego aspect (the women do it as a way to titillate the man) or from a direct participation in the sexual act.
Most of all and most important of all, those characters are idealized, because most real world lesbians will not actually let a man pohled or join in the bed at any point.
As for your examples, Alloy is unlikeable because of her constant petulance, is slightly uglified, and has no femininity. Abby is an ugly looking woman with the body of a man that the devs were too chicken shit to actually make her a man that dresses up as a woman. They embody none of the elements I've listed.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Complete with the trans colors warpaint skin. All for them born male lesbians.
Drizzlehell
Banned
I never was the one to trust the statistical data but everywhere you look for some info on this topic, it's clear that males aren't the "overwhelming majority" of gamers anymore. The split seems to be almost fifty-fifty these days, so take it for what you will.
The way I see it personally, is that even though the actual numbers between genders are almost equal, it's still very much a "boy's club" and male audience is still the one that's being favored during board meetings. Maybe I'm wrong but I wouldn't be surprised if I was right either.
Razvedka
Banned
This is because it's an easy win from a corporate perspective:
1). As a rule, women are open to sexual experimentation/lesbian relationships.
2). As a rule, men are not open to sexual experimentation/homosexual relationships. We become very uncomfortable of it being depicted in front of us, again in relative terms.
3). Men think (attractive) lesbians are hot.
4). You score inclusion points in urban centers for the gay romance.
The reason gay male relationships are way less frequent in all forms of entertainment than gay female is the above. Big companies absolutely employ people to do the math on this. Greatest ROI are lesbians.
Part of the confusion on this issue seems to, in my eyes, spring from an egalitarian perspective. We believe men and women are equal. In this worldview, it is logical/an article faith that the sexes think and behave more or less identically. But this simply isn't the case, in many many different ways.
As well, lesbians are generally more tolerated across the globe than gay men.
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Interfectum
Member
Hit the nail on the head. It's amusing to see individuals attempting to intertwine this issue with contemporary political correctness, despite its long-standing existence. The stereotypical 14-year-old white boy, who constitutes a significant portion of AAA gaming's target audience and plays games like Tomb Raider, is unlikely to be intrigued by any romantic subplot involving a male character. If the developers desire to incorporate a romantic narrative in the game, it would have to involve Lara having a female love interest. This choice satisfies a wide range of considerations without causing offense.
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Spitfire098
Member
Oh two girls kissing?!? Please developers don't put more girls kissing in my games. I really wouldn't want that.
Fess
Member
So everybody pretends to actually be the main character in all games now or what’s the deal here?
Nobody expect a mini game where you wank off a guy… It’s just about a cutscene and some dialogue. Have people never seen a girl kiss a guy before? Never seen a movie with a female lead flirting with a guy? Is that some cringe moment?
Oddvintagechap
Member
Because even some bigots find lesbians attractive. So marketing approves.
Even some progressives find gay men kissing weird, probably would create a bigger splash.
But who knows maybe we’ll see it in TLOU3. If Druckman has the balls.
Drizzlehell
Banned
Or, to put it more bluntly, female gay relationships are easier to fetishize because women are considered more universally appealing, while men are not. Men are just as open to sexual experimentation but the sad truth is that it is simply not as encouraged because of gender stereotypes, and how men are perceived in society.
Overall, I think that this is a pretty fucked up problem on its own, and yet another example of anti-male bias in modern pop-culture.
Interfectum
Member
The distinction lies in the player's control over the main character. Regardless of whether you're role-playing as the character or not doesn't matter. Many people could find their gaming experience disrupted if their character, guided by button inputs and quest paths, ended up in a romantic situation or relationship with a male character. In nearly every scenario I can recall, any potential romance with a male character was either optional or there was an alternative female character available for romantic engagement.
X-Wing
Member
All I know is that the existence of this thread, and the assumptions the claims made are correct (we only got one example but it’s ok because it’s “common knowledge”) proves that Sarkesian was right after all and games try to cater to straight cis male fantasy.Complete with the trans colors warpaint skin. All for them born male lesbians.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Interfectum
Member
From a corporate perspective, lesbian relationships are considered safe due to their broader societal acceptance. This approach also promotes greater female inclusion in gaming, which is a move likely to please figures like Sarkesian. It ticks the box for being progressive and maintains the 'cis male fantasy', as irrespective of the character they are role-playing, gamers still encounter an attractive female character as the end-goal.
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mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Nah man this isn't true literally at all.
X-Wing
Member
Nothing, I don't have an issue with that.
That's my point exactly, but the premise presented in the OP (that lesbian romance is a trope in videogames) would have to be proven true to start with.
Fbh
Gold Member
Because for modern writers the ideal strong female character is basically a man .
But more seriously, I think it's the most "socially acceptable" type of homosexual relationship. Most people playing these types of games are men and most men are probably more ok with playing as a lesbian and seeing a relationship between 2 women in their games than they would be with 2 men doing the same.
But more seriously, I think it's the most "socially acceptable" type of homosexual relationship. Most people playing these types of games are men and most men are probably more ok with playing as a lesbian and seeing a relationship between 2 women in their games than they would be with 2 men doing the same.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
It is a current year trend. however. $100 the next Lara Croft will be lesbian or hints of that exploration of the
It's a hollow virtue that is more socially acceptable (the part I agree with).
Interfectum
Member
One of the Tomb Raider scriptwriters was reportedly advocating for Lara's lesbian identity back in 2020, so it's very likely to happen. Recent games, including Forspoken and Returnal, have also hinted that their main characters could be lesbian or bisexual. It seems that the AAA gaming industry has a noticeable lack of heterosexual female leads. While not entirely absent, such representation is indeed infrequent. Contrast that with recent male leads and I don't believe ANY of them have been homosexual as far as I've seen.
Apocryphon
Member
That anybody gives a fuck about romance options in video games is perplexing to me. It’s fucking weird and almost never adds to the actual character development, is almost never cannon in the sequel, and almost never plays out through gameplay outside of ridiculous dialogue choices. Like.. just go play a dating sim, we’re trying to save the fucking galaxy over here you horny cunt!
JerryinSoCal
Member
As a gay man I don't really get the obsession with lesbians in the game development space lol. It really does seem like these guys are fixated on lesbian relationships, I'm all for "representation" in its proper time and place, but this game didn't present that. She's too busy trying to save the world to have any type of personality in the main game so when a more immediate threat is there she's got time to (optionally) quickly romance a woman? It just seemed like something that was done to say they did it. If a story doesn't organically let you include the characters sexual orientation gay or straight don't bother with it at all, it's not like we needed to know. I loved how they handled Kung Jin in Mortal Kombat X, they let you know he was gay subtly and left it at that, he was just one of many characters and he happened to be gay but being gay wasn't all he was about. If you are gay you appreciated the inclusion but at the same time you also know that the story wasn't about that so it didn't need to go further.
I do love when you have the option in RPG's that makes the most sense because you can take the time to do things like build a home etc but in an action game unless you are planning on making that part of the story in a big way there is no need to include it, it actually makes you look worse by doing it half-assed than it does if you just don't do it at all.
I wish they had spent more time writing better main storylines for Forbidden West and Burning Shores. The game looked great but that story was TERRIBLE and as someone who loved the first game I felt really let down with the story and the new gameplay mechanics that were added that just weren't fun, not only that but they did nothing to improve the melee combat which needs a lock on I don't care what they say.
I do love when you have the option in RPG's that makes the most sense because you can take the time to do things like build a home etc but in an action game unless you are planning on making that part of the story in a big way there is no need to include it, it actually makes you look worse by doing it half-assed than it does if you just don't do it at all.
I wish they had spent more time writing better main storylines for Forbidden West and Burning Shores. The game looked great but that story was TERRIBLE and as someone who loved the first game I felt really let down with the story and the new gameplay mechanics that were added that just weren't fun, not only that but they did nothing to improve the melee combat which needs a lock on I don't care what they say.
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Last Hearth
Member
It's closer to 50/50 only if you expand the definition of "gamer" to include everyone who plays Candy Crush or Angry Birds on their mobiles phones and everyone who played Wii Bowling.
If we're talking about the population of people for whom gaming is a major hobby in which they invest a large portion of their time and disposable income, the latter in the form of the latest generation console or a gaming PC, who buys AAA titles at or near release dates. That group is overwhelmingly male.
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Drizzlehell
Banned
The fact that you even brought up that con artist explains a lot about what you've been trying to do earlier, lol.
Oh, and by the way, here's what 3 seconds of Googling gave me - a simple listicle consisting of 18 LGBT characters in videogames - 11 of which are lesbians. Of course, if you were actually trying to have an earnest discussion instead of just trying to stir up some shit, they you would find this on your own.
You still wanna argue that over-representation of gay women in video games isn't common knowledge?
No?
I see, in that case:
Fbh
Gold Member
Because that's still the core audience of these games.
Larian combined the most popular features used by the players in the character edition of Baldurs Gate 3 (early access) and the result was:
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
4.3 user score on metacritic.
Horizon Forbidden West: Burning Shores Reviews
Travel beyond the Forbidden West as Aloy’s story continues. Encounter new machines and a compelling new story. South of the Tenakth Clan Lands, millennia of volcanic eruptions and violent seismic activity have carved the ruins of Los Angeles into a treacherous archipelago. Experience the next...
www.metacritic.com
Men are not ok with this. It might have been true when we were 15 and still watched lesbian porn.
Drizzlehell
Banned
Ok, but how can you prove that the only people who play mobile games are women and "real games" are for "real gamers" i.e. men?
If you have some stats that have that level of granularity then I'd be happy to see them but my expert research that consisted of 20 minutes of Googling didn't produce any relevant results, unfortunately.
Last Hearth
Member
She was right that "games try to cater to straight cis male fantasy", where she was wrong is that this is somehow an evil that needed to be eradicated.
Straight men needs escapism now and then, just like all humans do, and there is nothing wrong with it.
Last Hearth
Member
I never use terms like "real gamers". I was specifically talking about a particular type of game. The AAA releases on the latest gen consoles and gaming PCs, for those type of games the purchasing customer is overwhelmingly male.
Fbh
Gold Member
4.3 user score on metacritic.
Horizon Forbidden West: Burning Shores Reviews
Travel beyond the Forbidden West as Aloy’s story continues. Encounter new machines and a compelling new story. South of the Tenakth Clan Lands, millennia of volcanic eruptions and violent seismic activity have carved the ruins of Los Angeles into a treacherous archipelago. Experience the next...
Men are not ok with this. It might have been true when we were 15 and still watched lesbian porn.
But I think the reaction would have been way worse if Aloy was a dude and they made him gay.
I think there's a group of people that don't want any type of homosexual relationships in games at all (specially not introduced in a post game DLC in the second entry) so there's always going to be complains and pushback.
But if you have to have the main character of your game be in a homosexual relationship then I think 2 women will get a milder response than 2 men.
cash_longfellow
Member
If I were a woman, I would definitely be a lesbian.
Drizzlehell
Banned
I know, I jest. But I was being serious when asking if we can somehow confirm what you're saying because I'm genuinely curious, and answer that basically boils down to "trust me bro" doesn't sound very compelling.
Danjin44
The nicest person on this forum
I personally dont care if the character is gay or not, all I want is good and memorable character and my big problem with Aloy is she is dry as fuck.
Another thing is most western devs go most boring way to make "strong" female, it all boils down to making her act like men that includes falling in love with another woman because she is too "strong" and "she doesn't need no men" as if woman falling in love with men sign of weakness and somehow wrong, this why so many western media had issue with Bayonetta falling involve with Luka.
Another thing is most western devs go most boring way to make "strong" female, it all boils down to making her act like men that includes falling in love with another woman because she is too "strong" and "she doesn't need no men" as if woman falling in love with men sign of weakness and somehow wrong, this why so many western media had issue with Bayonetta falling involve with Luka.
Drizzlehell
Banned
No, you can't say that you're not interested in women therefore you don't want to pursue a romance. You can only pick an option where Aloy will give the usual bullshit speech about having to save the world and having no time for distractions, or not being ready for a relationship, bla bla bla (which is another trite way in which female video game characters approach relationships - they simply don't have time for it). But the dialogue still very clearly indicates that she's into that girl and it leaves the door open for future romance.
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