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[Willco]

There are CLEARLY differences between Scientology and your good ol' average, ordinary religion, and they have been well-documented: threats against members, financial misdoings, brainwashing techniques, etc. It's not fair to equate the CoS to your local neighborhood church/mosque/synagogue/whatever.

With that being said, there ARE similarities between them from a certain point of view, and I don't think xsarien is ENTIRELY off-base with his comment. Religious belief requires a certain amount of irrationality -- maybe "suspension of disbelief" is the right word -- to persist, and rigorous rational skepticism about the belief system is discouraged.

The similiarities are few and far between as Scientology didn't even start off as a religion, but a scientific business until the IRS shot down their tax exempt status claim and Hubbard quickly transformed his operation to match religious terminology in a poor attempt to get it back.

xsarien said that a cult "pretty much describes most world religions...", which if you go by the textbook definition, it doesn't. You could draw up your own interepretations and Google up some fanatical sects to make that connection, but you'd be grasping for straws. So yeah, he's off-base.

So I don't know what you're trying to argue here, jinx. This is coming from an atheist.

 

[demon]

that about wraps it up for katie holmes!!!

Just like it wrapped it up for me, YEAH BABY!

 

[Pellham]

if he's not entirely off-base, then he's only on-base by about 10%.

seriously, scientology deserves no credit at all.

 

[Escape Goat]

Just like it wrapped it up for me, YEAH BABY!

Well, i was kidding. I dont give a flying f*ck about Katie holmes and her idiotic religions. I think she wrapped herself up once Dawson drowned her in th ecreek .

 

[xsarien]

The similiarities are few and far between as Scientology didn't even start off as a religion, but a scientific business until the IRS shot down their tax exempt status claim and Hubbard quickly transformed his operation to match religious terminology in a poor attempt to get it back.

There are overall similarties in that at the end of the day, Scientology, like most other religions, has a spiritual playbook of sorts. Rules, traditions, "relics," what have you. Yes, the "religion" is a little strange. But I'm not about to make judgement calls on how people want to spend their free time. Moonies, Scientologists, whatever. As long as they're not plotting to blow shit up, trying to convert me at my doorstep, or attempting to take over the world, it's their life to live. You obviously care, I can't imagine why.

xsarien said that a cult "pretty much describes most world religions...", which if you go by the textbook definition, it doesn't. You could draw up your own interepretations and Google up some fanatical sects to make that connection, but you'd be grasping for straws. So yeah, he's off-base.

Four of the textbook definitions of "cult" can be equally applied across the board. It really is not my problem if you're taking the first one that comes to mind. But Jinx and ManDudeChild are the only ones who actually saw my point through the cynicasm (cynicism + sarcasm, my new, upcoming sport drink.) In fact, Jinx summed it up best: That every religion has the same basic core: The need among the followers to believe, and the need among the leaders to keep that belief going.

 

[siege]

Funny poll on CNN:

Would you change religions to date Tom Cruise?

Yes 5% 2812 votes

No 95% 51538 votes

Total: 54350 votes

 

[OpinionatedCyborg]

The similiarities are few and far between as Scientology didn't even start off as a religion, but a scientific business until the IRS shot down their tax exempt status claim and Hubbard quickly transformed his operation to match religious terminology in a poor attempt to get it back
atheist.

Poor attempt to get it back? Well, that "poor attempt" seems to have worked quite well.

 

[ballhog]

Can scientologists fuck without marriage?

 

[OpinionatedCyborg]

Can scientologists fuck without marriage?

Only with Xenu.

 

[Hitokage]

The word "cult" is one of the few words that have long since been stripped of any real semantic meaning. Don't even bother going to the dictionary because in reality there are around 20 different denotations to the word "cult" these days, and nobody keeps them distinct.

However, a destructive cult, taken to mean a multilevel organization which exerts psychological control over its members, is fundamentally different from any normal religion in the exact same way con artists differ from ordinary merchants: they deceive you, and in the case of destructive cults, they con you into giving them your volition.

Then again, you could just say that since you voluntarily give your money to both merchants and con artists there's no difference.

 

[Willco]

There are overall similarties in that at the end of the day, Scientology, like most other religions, has a spiritual playbook of sorts. Rules, traditions, "relics," what have you. Yes, the "religion" is a little strange. But I'm not about to make judgement calls on how people want to spend their free time. Moonies, Scientologists, whatever. As long as they're not plotting to blow shit up, trying to convert me at my doorstep, or attempting to take over the world, it's their life to live. You obviously care, I can't imagine why.

Except Scientology is not a religion, nor did it start out that way. It's pretty well documented and this whole paragraph just smacks of someone who is like, "All religions are inherently evil and I'm too busy to read what has been posted about this cult before, so I am just going to make some general statement!"

Four of the textbook definitions of "cult" can be equally applied across the board.

You'd be grasping at straws to apply them to most of the world religions without referencing fanatics or sects, which may qualify as cults, but the majority of people in the base religions wouldn't qualify.

In fact, Jinx summed it up best: That every religion has the same basic core: The need among the followers to believe, and the need among the leaders to keep that belief going.

So are you trying to argue that Scientology is a religion or that all religions are cults? I think you're mixing up your argument here in an attempt to show your cynicism to organized religion.

The only reason I care is because I get more and more frustrated by people who repeat ad nauseam that Scientology is just a loony religion and/or like all religions, because they're completely ignorant of the facts.

Poor attempt to get it back? Well, that "poor attempt" seems to have worked quite well.

I shouldn't have used the word "poor", more like EVIL.

 

[ballhog]

Only with Xenu.

I guess that's better than nothing.

 

[Pellham]

As long as they're not plotting to blow shit up, trying to convert me at my doorstep, or attempting to take over the world, it's their life to live. You obviously care, I can't imagine why.

With an attitude like that, you must be one of those people who'd see a mugger beating an old lady up, and would just walk right past.

Don't care about the way scientology hurts people? Fine, be like that.

 

[Escape Goat]

With an attitude like that, you must be one of those people who'd see a mugger beating an old lady up, and would just walk right past.

Don't care about the way scientology hurts people? Fine, be like that.

How is scientology hurting anyone that didn't join by their own free will? I doubt the old lady chose to get robbed. :lol

 

[Dan]

I took a course on cults and other high-demand groups from a sociological perspective and I've got some notes here on some definitional stuff...

Cults: innovative non-schismatic groups which make a distinct break with religious tradition of the surrounding community

[u]Characteristics:[/u]
High tension
	Divergent from surrounding religious traditions
	Mutual antagonism with surrounding community
	Sociopsychological separation producing high cost external relations
Religion: supernatural solutions to questions of ultimate meaning postulating an active force influencing worldly conditions and/or events
	Cults: independent religious traditions – no prior tie
		Novel creation
		Importation
Movement: organized for ideologically motivated by and committed to a purpose implement change whose influence is spreading in opposition to established order
	A mechanism through which radical change is shaped and directed
	Radical: opposition/resistance by those in power positions
	Requirements:
Decentralized organization
Face-to-face recruitment (typically through pre-established relations)
Commitment
Interpretation by ideology (religious if a cult)
Real or perceived opposition

 

[xsarien]

Except Scientology is not a religion, nor did it start out that way. It's pretty well documented and this whole paragraph just smacks of someone who is like, "All religions are inherently evil and I'm too busy to read what has been posted about this cult before, so I am just going to make some general statement!"

And your reply smacks of someone who wants to hang Scientology out to dry on a technicality. I'm aware of the "company line" on Scientology, as well as the criticisms against it. But nowhere am I seeing any justification for people who have no interest in it to get their panties in a bunch about what the followers do. Are they stuffing flyers underneath your windshield wiper everyday or something?

You'd be grasping at straws to apply them to most of the world religions without referencing fanatics or sects, which may qualify as cults, but the majority of people in the base religions wouldn't qualify.

Putting what Hito said aside for a moment (because he does have a valid point), if you actually read the definitions you'd see that they're vague enough to apply to (bonafide) religions in general. Although that qualification is made because part of what often attracts the label of "cult" is the size of the religion in question.

So are you trying to argue that Scientology is a religion or that all religions are cults? I think you're mixing up your argument here in an attempt to show your cynicism to organized religion.

There's no mixing here. All religions have cult-like behavior (to use the popular, if sometimes misguided definition of "odd"), it's just a matter of whether or not the behavior's socially accepted; whether or not said behavior is destructive, and if it is destructive, than to whom.

The only reason I care is because I get more and more frustrated by people who repeat ad nauseam that Scientology is just a loony religion and/or like all religions, because they're completely ignorant of the facts.

If Scientology was having any kind of affect on society at large, you'd have a point. But right now it's just a bunch of rich snobs who think they've found the ultimate in spiritual salvation.

With an attitude like that, you must be one of those people who'd see a mugger beating an old lady up, and would just walk right past.

Don't care about the way scientology hurts people? Fine, be like that.

I resent that. The old lady didn't ask to be mugged. Katie had a choice, she made it. Then, whe her agent tells her to leave, she will.

 

[BarneyBP]

Uh oh Katie. Looks like someone is on Xenu's shit list now!

 

[Hitokage]

How is scientology hurting anyone that didn't join by their own free will? I doubt the old lady chose to get robbed. :lol

...

 

[Fuzzy]

I resent that. The old lady didn't ask to be mugged. Katie had a choice, she made it. Then whe her agent tells her to leave, she will.

And if Cruise seduced her with the sole purpose being to recruit her by brainwashing her?

 

[Escape Goat]

...

What? If these people are dumb enough to subscribe to this BS and get taken advantage of its their own fault. Where exactly is scientology hurting those outside its organization?

 

[xsarien]

And if Cruise seduced her with the sole purpose being to recruit her by brainwashing her?

I'd ask for proof that a hidden cabal of Scientology elders took Cruise aside and said, "We need Katie Holmes. Pictures just aren't enough."

 

[Hitokage]

And if Cruise seduced her with the sole purpose being to recruit her by brainwashing her?

No, it doesn't work like that. When you're in a cult you don't date people because you want to recruit them, you try to recruit them because you want to date them and not get into the situation where you're romantically involved with an unbeliever.

...and I've been in that very situation.

 

[xsarien]

No, it doesn't work like that. When you're in a cult you don't date people because you want to recruit them, you try to recruit them because you want to date them and not get into the situation where you're romantically involved with an unbeliever.

To be fair, I can point to nearly every religious (for the sake of this thread, take that to mean the mainstream religions, lest Wilco have another fit) friend I have who has the exact same policy. Not Jewish? No dice. Not Christian? Well, that about wraps it up for that relationship.

 

[maharg]

Yeah well, Christians and Jewish people don't put you in a sort of gulag or keep you from attending service or practicing your religion just for dating a non-believer.

 

[Hitokage]

There is some matter of degree here, and as I understand it normally if they don't meet with your religious criteria you either drop the relationship and let them be on their way or work things out regardless.

 

[xsarien]

Yeah well, Christians and Jewish people don't put you in a sort of gulag or keep you from attending service or practicing your religion just for dating a non-believer.

They more than make up for it in guilt.

There is some matter of degree here, and as I understand it normally if they don't meet with your religious criteria you drop the relationship and let them be on their way.

True, but there are definitely cases where one of the two converts to appease the other.

 

[Gantz]

The word "cult" is one of the few words that have long since been stripped of any real semantic meaning. Don't even bother going to the dictionary because in reality there are around 20 different denotations to the word "cult" these days, and nobody keeps them distinct.

However, a destructive cult, taken to mean a multilevel organization which exerts psychological control over its members, is fundamentally different from any normal religion in the exact same way con artists differ from ordinary merchants: they deceive you, and in the case of destructive cults, they con you into giving them your volition.

Then again, you could just say that since you voluntarily give your money to both merchants and con artists there's no difference.

Like Christianity.

 

[Drozmight]

"Gotcha, bitch."

:lol :lol

 

[impirius]

See the difference between Freezoners and the Church of Scientology

Freezoners - kooky, perhaps, but not a cult

 

[Hitokage]

Like Christianity.

Oh, I'm sorry, if you joined a christian sect expecting free cookies and milk every day then that's your own fault.

 

[Prince of Space]

Scientology, a religion founded by science fiction writer L. Ron Hubbard.

Does no one EVER PAY ATTENTION TO THIS PART?

 

[masud]

All eyes on Tom Cruise is on MTV right now. Cruise is fucking batshit insane.

 

[Ash Housewares]

damnit, I should've burned them to the ground when I had the chance

 

[Whimsical Phil]

Don't think anyone really cares. Just people commenting on the topic due to the recent number of posts on Scientology I think. Crazy religion right up there with ... well all of them.

 

[Porridge]

i like how this is considered news

 

[Alucard]

Headline: I HAVE SWITCHED TO BOXERS AFTER 23 YEARS OF WEARING BRIEFS.

Whoa. Look how easy news making can be.

 

[krypt0nian]

She is dead to me.

 

[Aruarian Reflection]

So is Katie still a virgin? I remember her vehemently proclaiming a few years back that she was a virgin.

 

[Socreges]

So is Katie still a virgin? I remember her vehemently proclaiming a few years back that she was a virgin.

If she was before, she can't be anymore. One of the first requirements in joining the Church of Scientology is to, as they phrase it, "Allow the five, sacred leaders to free your womb with their seed".

And it gets worse

"Should a child be bred, its flesh will be seen as the Holy Eucharist and therefore consumed by all willing participants."

People may tell you that Scientology is bad news, but try actually reading about their practices.

 

[Particle Physicist]

If she was before, she can't be anymore. One of the first requirements in joining the Church of Scientology is to, as they phrase it, "Allow the five, sacred leaders to free your womb with their seed".

And it gets worse

"Should a child be bred, its flesh will be seen as the Holy Eucharist and therefore consumed by all willing participants."

People may tell you that Scientology is bad news, but try actually reading about their practices.

well, that settles the big debate.. scientology is obviously not a cult.

 

[Slurpy]

Wow.. I lost any and all respect for her.

Sorry for the lang, but I'm going to have to say she's a pretty stupid, and malleable bitch if this is true.

 

[john tv]

 

[Xenon]

same shit, different book

 

[demon]

:lol :lol

 

[FrenchMovieTheme]

is/was nicole kiddman ever a scientologist??

 

[siege]

is/was nicole kiddman ever a scientologist??

Nope. Nicole is too intelligent for that crap.

 

[RiZ III]

Katie Holmes is a nice holsum girl, and I get to see her breasts

 

[FrenchMovieTheme]

:lol

how long has tom cruise been a scientologist and is there any relation between his divorce with kiddman and his religion?

 

[Hyoushi]

Hehe, these threads all turn out the same. Strange.

 

[Zaptruder]

If you can be converted to a religion, you can be converted to scientology!

Actually, that's not strictly right. The other religions have at least a fair amount of circumstantial evidence... maybe not the right word, but weight of some sort of evidence in their favour, be it tradition, number of faithfuls, or general ignorance about the key events of the religion...

but scientology... scientology almost requires another level of loopiness. Like, lets ignore everything good and true and rational and join this cult with the crappy name and the raving loon as the spokesperson. And that's just on a superficial level.