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Keep Assad in power to defeat Isis in Syria, says former UK military chief

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params7

Banned
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...-are-contradictory-says-former-military-chief

David Cameron should abandon his “contradictory war aims” and accept that President Bashar al-Assad must remain in power to allow his army to take the lead in defeating Islamic State forces in Syria, former chief of the defence staff Gen David Richards has said.

As the prime minister prepares the ground for a Commons vote on extending RAF airstrikes against Isis forces from Iraq to Syria, Lord Richards called for Britain and other allied nations to broker a deal with Russia that would pave the way for Assad’s forces to lead the charge against Isis on the ground.

In an interview on BBC Radio 4’s Today programme on Wednesday, he said: “At the moment we’ve got contradictory war aims. We want to deal with Isis but we also want to get rid of Assad at the same time. I personally don’t think that’s plausible. Any general will tell you you need to have unity of purpose and clear aims in a war. That muddies those aims.”

The prime minister, who had insisted that Assad must be removed from power as a first step to building a new settlement in Syria, has softened his language in recent weeks as he seeks to win Russian support for targeting Isis. He has spoken of how Assad could remain in power for a transitional period as part of an overall political settlement in Syria.

But Richards called for Cameron to go further and to accept that Assad’s army and his Hezbollah and Iranian backers are the only credible force that could fight Isis on the ground in Syria.

He said: “The real issue is can you use the one army that’s reasonably competent which is President Assad’s army? In that respect I personally would see a ceasefire being agreed in the way people are now talking, allowing potentially Assad’s army and Hezbollah and their Iranian backers and others to turn their attention on Isis in a sequential operation. After that the politics would kick in and you would have to do something about the residual political structure within Syria.”

Richards said a failure to use Assad’s forces would risk a repeat of the chaos in Iraq in the wake of the 2003 invasion. “Do we want to invite chaos by forcing [Assad] out without some sort of successor government that will ensure order at least in their own areas? In the areas controlled by Assad it is a functioning government. The dustbins are emptied. We don’t want to see what happened in Iraq in 2004/05/06 where it was chaotic because we couldn’t manage the aftermath.

More on the link:
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...-are-contradictory-says-former-military-chief

Seems like the thing to do if we don't want to put boots on the ground and still want to fight ISIS.
 
duh, everyone knows this.

It's why the US response has been so muddled and ineffective. Trying to not assist the ruling dictator who is gassing his own people and not assist the terrorist group fighting him is a pretty much impossible task.
 

Volimar

Member
duh, everyone knows this.

It's why the US response has been so muddled and ineffective. Trying to not assist the ruling dictator who is gassing his own people and not assist the terrorist group fighting him is a pretty much impossible task.

Yup. All while we scramble to find the "good" rebels. The whole thing is a clusterfuck that's grinding the populace into gravel.
 

Ovid

Member
Assad must stay in power in order to keep some stability in Syria.

An unfortunate consequence of American foreign policy in the region over the past 12 years (invasion of Iraq).
 
The enemy of my enemy is my friend. In this case, Assad is some how the lesser of two evils and also provides some form of stability.

I'm not surprised by this statement. I actually thought it was commonly accepted anyway?
 

Volimar

Member
The enemy of my enemy is my friend. In this case, Assad is some how the lesser of two evils and also provides some form of stability.

I'm not surprised by this statement. I actually thought it was commonly accepted anyway?

Maybe not so common to say it out loud.
 

Cromat

Member
As long as Assad is there, the local Sunni population will never be fully enlisted in the fight against ISIS.
 

ElTorro

I wanted to dominate the living room. Then I took an ESRAM in the knee.
Sticking with Assad is probably the only realistic endgame. What else would you want to do? Who else is there who could stabilize the country that we could seriously support? Assad seems to be the lesser of many evils.
 
The enemy of my enemy is my friend. In this case, Assad is some how the lesser of two evils and also provides some form of stability.

I'm not surprised by this statement. I actually thought it was commonly accepted anyway?

There will be another civil war right after this one ends if Assad stays in power. He's constantly bombed hospitals just to punish civilians, the people left in Syria have nothing but hatred for Assad and want to see him dead more than anything else.
 

params7

Banned
As long as Assad is there, the local Sunni population will never be fully enlisted in the fight against ISIS.

That is a legit problem but something that should be worked for with diplomacy with Russia on the table pressuring Assad to hold elections and relinquish power.

What's your alternative? Depose Assad - and hope Qatar or Saudi Arabia will be able to install a stable government that replaces his?
 
As long as Assad is there, the local Sunni population will never be fully enlisted in the fight against ISIS.

As long as the Shiites are in power, you might never get Sunni support in anything. Unless you subdivide Syria along sectarian lines, this can never be solved, same in Iraq.
 

Ether_Snake

安安安安安安安安安安安安安安安
You can't remove the Syrian government without handing over Syria to Islamists.

As long as the Shiites are in power, you might never get Sunni support in anything.

Wrong, because that's precisely why the conflict exists.
 
As long as Assad is there, the local Sunni population will never be fully enlisted in the fight against ISIS.

I know you're an Israeli, and I know that you know that Assad, while a bastard, was a man your country and the rest of the Western world could deal with as a rational political actor.... and a man who could be counted on to keep a lid on the strand of apocalyptic Sunni extremism we are experiencing now. (if not nationalistic Shia militants like Hamas and Hezbollah, whom we know Assad supplied with weapons)
How many rocket attacks ever came from the Golan Heights since 67? A negligible amount.
That speaks to the Assad regimes careful pragmatism and survival instincts. Regimes like that can be engaged with on the diplomatic front (even if we have to hold our noses as we do it) because they, unlike ISIS, abide by rules of self preservation every rational governing body is familiar with.

While the images of Assad's army ravaging unarmed demonstrators during the Arab spring were horrible to watch, our empathy never should have blossomed into a commitment to a Libya-like solution where America and the EU are supporting a mix of freedom fighters and batshit insane jihadis in the name of regime change.
 

Xando

Member
Assad will stay in power even though the US and other western powers still deny it. It will take them another 2-3 years to realize that Russia will not drop him and the US will not be able to change that unless they invade
 

reckless

Member
Well Assad's strategy of destroying the moderate opposition while helping the extremists groups like ISIS and Al-Nusra grow worked pretty in turning the West into his ally in the war.
 

params7

Banned
There will be another civil war right after this one ends if Assad stays in power. He's constantly bombed hospitals just to punish civilians, the people left in Syria have nothing but hatred for Assad and want to see him dead more than anything else.

Assad is no saint, he will kill to not let Syria go out of his hands, but this has little basis in reality when the so called civil uprising was funded by neighbor states in the first place. Qatar has spent billions of USD and Saudis have matched or outspent them by now. No wonder the U.S. has been making big weapon deals with them lately (though both Obama and Romney said they wanted to support "their allies" against Assad in the 2012 debates). It was funny when Saudi priests declared holy war on Russia for trying to help Assad.

Lack of representation for Sunni's is a major issue though, but at this point you have to ask yourself at what cost do you want to help them? A power vacuum will make things go from frying pan to fire, specially with ISIS inches away.
 
Yup. All while we scramble to find the "good" rebels. The whole thing is a clusterfuck that's grinding the populace into gravel.

The US already found their "good rebels" .

The US and some other nations still don't think they need to work with the government at the moment. They will keep doing what they are doing until Assad is out of power. I don't think much is convincing them hard to unless Assad leaves.

Besides if they do that the 'west' will piss off every other player and lose all control of the situation on the rebel side. At that point the rebels would have no good reason to talk with the 'west' and therefore kill any hope of a political agreement. The allied nations will ignore the 'west' and start supplying rebels with stuff they shouldn't get. Hell, Turkey might go off the wall and start do something even more crazy.

Some people think you can do whatever you want in the Middle East and think there won't be consequences( especially regarding ME allies), history and current events shows that isn't true. Some European players ( the ones that matter) and the US would be stupid to start all publically supporting Assad; it would be politically suicide .
 

Aceofspades

Banned
Edit: this post was a reply to AyaisMUsikWhore who wanted a brief history about the situation. sorry didn't quote him right.


Believe me you don't. ME is full of really depressing stories but I will give you the extreme short version of it:

Syria was ruled by Assad father in 1971 for 29 years, he was really suppressing his opposition, country was stable but economically struggling since most of Syria wealth is under his control. in 2000 he died and his son (current ruler) took his place. of course things remained the same and Syria economic struggle continued.

In 2010-2011 the Arab spring of revolution started in Egypt, Libya and Tunisia, all these revolutions ended up with the current dictator replaced in these countries (for better or worse). Syrian brothers thought it would be the same and they started revolting against Assad except he didn't back up and decided to use all his military might to crush the opposition. hundreds of thousands of Syrian people killed, starting a war in the country. this chaotic war has spawned different opposition factions, all fighting Assad. Daesh or ISIS found an opportunity to take advantage of this situation and strengthen their arms in Syria (Daesh capital and leader are located in IRAQ). Now the situation is chaotic with Russia backing Assad and USA wanting him to go.

Notice that I didn't touch the subject of different major religious sects or Kurds to keep it short and simple. All in all, Syria is in a miserable state right now and it breaks my heart to see it like this.
 
These has been clear for a while, you're not going to be able to remove both and at this point ISIS are the bigger threat to the West.
But make no mistake that if we were to destroy ISIS within a few years, he'd be back to killing his own people and fingers would be pointed at Obama, Cameron and the others.
There's no good ending to this, you have to choose your poison and accept the consequences. Its heart breaking.
 

Cromat

Member
I know you're an Israeli, and I know that you know that Assad, while a bastard, was a man your country and the rest of the Western world could deal with as a rational political actor.... and a man who could be counted on to keep a lid on the strand of apocalyptic Sunni extremism we are experiencing now. (if not nationalistic Shia militants like Hamas and Hezbollah, whom we know Assad supplied with weapons)
How many rocket attacks ever came from the Golan Heights since 67? A negligible amount.
That speaks to the Assad regimes careful pragmatism and survival instincts. Regimes like that can be engaged with on the diplomatic front (even if we have to hold our noses as we do it) because they, unlike ISIS, abide by rules of self preservation every rational governing body is familiar with.

While the images of Assad's army ravaging unarmed demonstrators during the Arab spring were horrible to watch, our empathy never should have blossomed into a commitment to a Libya-like solution where America and the EU are supporting a mix of freedom fighters and batshit insane jihadis in the name of regime change.

I don't doubt that Assad is far more rational and responsible than ISIS, that much is clear to anyone. Under the Assad dynasty, Syria was at the very least a functioning country.

From a point of political convenience it might seem like Assad is the best bet in Syria, and no doubt most people would be happy to return Syria to its pre-Arab Spring ways if that was possible. Under Assad, Syria would be far less of a threat to global security.

But to imagine that we can return to those days is an illusion. The truth is that the Assad regime bears the most responsibility for the situation in Syria. First, by virtue of keeping Syria an authoritarian police state for four decades, and refusing any meaningful reform. When he gained power, many in the West hoped that Assad Jr. would be a moderate that would modernize and liberalize his country. Those hopes were dashed, either through Assad's lack of willingness or lack of courage. His response to the initial protests paved the way for this civil war, and his unwillingness to step down continued it. Mubarak at least had the decency of resigning after three weeks.

The Assad regime is responsible for roughly 200,000 of the 300,000 deaths in Syria (along with his allies, Iran and Hizbullah, who participate directly in the fighting). The regime has killed and tortured far more Syrians than ISIS. Most displaced Syrians were displaced by the actions of the national Syrian Army, not the actions of rebel groups, extremist or otherwise. The regime used siege and famine as weapons, starving rebel strongholds to submission, including the large Al-Yarmuk Palestinian refugee camp near Damascus. Assad used chemical weapons against civilians in his own capital. I think this sentence needs to be read more than once to be fully appreciated. If I could go back in time and tell people that in 2012, a dictator used weapons of mass destruction in his own freaking capital against civilians, and that many people would later consider him a viable partner for diplomatic efforts in the region, I would have been laughed at.

The Sunni population of Syria will never accept Assad as their ruler, and for good reason. He killed their sons and daughters, he tortured them, he gassed them, he starved them, he oppressed them. This is why the rebellion has gone on for so long despite the efforts of four highly trained military forces fighting against the rebels: the Syrian army, Hizbullah, Iran's Revolutionary Guard and now Russia.

It's not about the 'devil we know', or the unpalatable realities of global politics. This is a ruler that has zero legitimacy with the majority in his country, and importantly, the majority on whom groups like ISIS rely on for support . The military chief quoted here is, in my opinion, very wrong. You cannot defeat ISIS by keeping Assad in power, the hatred towards him is the main engine driving the growth and influence of ISIS. And it's also morally repugnant.
 
I don't doubt that Assad is far more rational and responsible than ISIS, that much is clear to anyone. Under the Assad dynasty, Syria was at the very least a functioning country.

From a point of political convenience it might seem like Assad is the best bet in Syria, and no doubt most people would be happy to return Syria to its pre-Arab Spring ways if that was possible. Under Assad, Syria would be far less of a threat to global security.

But to imagine that we can return to those days is an illusion. The truth is that the Assad regime bears the most responsibility for the situation in Syria. First, by virtue of keeping Syria an authoritarian police state for four decades, and refusing any meaningful reform. When he gained power, many in the West hoped that Assad Jr. would be a moderate that would modernize and liberalize his country. Those hopes were dashed, either through Assad's lack of willingness or lack of courage. His response to the initial protests paved the way for this civil war, and his unwillingness to step down continued it. Mubarak at least had the decency of resigning after three weeks.

The Assad regime is responsible for roughly 200,000 of the 300,000 deaths in Syria (along with his allies, Iran and Hizbullah, who participate directly in the fighting). The regime has killed and tortured far more Syrians than ISIS. Most displaced Syrians were displaced by the actions of the national Syrian Army, not the actions of rebel groups, extremist or otherwise. The regime used siege and famine as weapons, starving rebel strongholds to submission, including the large Al-Yarmuk Palestinian refugee camp near Damascus. Assad used chemical weapons against civilians in his own capital. I think this sentence needs to be read more than once to be fully appreciated. If I could go back in time and tell people that in 2012, a dictator used weapons of mass destruction in his own freaking capital against civilians, and that many people would later consider him a viable partner for diplomatic efforts in the region, I would have been laughed at.

The Sunni population of Syria will never accept Assad as their ruler, and for good reason. He killed their sons and daughters, he tortured them, he gassed them, he starved them, he oppressed them. This is why the rebellion has gone on for so long despite the efforts of four highly trained military forces fighting against the rebels: the Syrian army, Hizbullah, Iran's Revolutionary Guard and now Russia.

It's not about the 'devil we know', or the unpalatable realities of global politics. This is a ruler that has zero legitimacy with the majority in his country, and importantly, the majority on whom groups like ISIS rely on for support . The military chief quoted here is, in my opinion, very wrong. You cannot defeat ISIS by keeping Assad in power, the hatred towards him is the main engine driving the growth and influence of ISIS. And it's also morally repugnant.

Being 'unpalatable realities of global politics' is partial the reason the west can't support Assad . Like you said many Sunni's at least in much of rebel,ISIL, and Kurdish territory won't accept him and the extends to the Sunni nations too. Also, the guy suggesting to support Hezbollah too is the most stupidest thing ever and it should be really obvious why.
 

antonz

Member
It is impossible to keep Assad in power unless we plan to assist him in subjugating and slaughtering his own people. They want him gone and that has not changed.
 

Complistic

Member
There will be another civil war right after this one ends if Assad stays in power. He's constantly bombed hospitals just to punish civilians, the people left in Syria have nothing but hatred for Assad and want to see him dead more than anything else.

That's fine and dandy, now what's going to replace him? And how's that going to work out?
 

Madness

Member
I wish I just had a complete history lesson on all of this stuff.

On the Sunni/Shia Islam war or the Assad family's rise to power in Syria?

But as for OP, I've been saying it for a while, the best way to completely crush the Islamic State caliphate now is to let Assad steamroll the rebels (already happened due to Russia's bombing and US pulling support), reorganize and take back ISIS held terrorist. Once all that is done, have Assad transition power to someone else, otherwise they will risk guerilla attacks and suicide bombing and killing for decades. The next leader will probably end up being a dictator as well.
 

BennyBlanco

aka IMurRIVAL69
Very complicated situation. Taking him out not only sets off a massive power vacuum in Syria that somebody will have to fill but also makes you an enemy of Russia.

I wouldn't want to be a decision maker anywhere near this clusterfuck.
 
On the Sunni/Shia Islam war or the Assad family's rise to power in Syria?

But as for OP, I've been saying it for a while, the best way to completely crush the Islamic State caliphate now is to let Assad steamroll the rebels (already happened due to Russia's bombing and US pulling support), reorganize and take back ISIS held terrorist. Once all that is done, have Assad transition power to someone else, otherwise they will risk guerilla attacks and suicide bombing and killing for decades. The next leader will probably end up being a dictator as well.

Never happened unless you got proof for that.
 

params7

Banned
I don't doubt that Assad is far more rational and responsible than ISIS, that much is clear to anyone. Under the Assad dynasty, Syria was at the very least a functioning country.

From a point of political convenience it might seem like Assad is the best bet in Syria, and no doubt most people would be happy to return Syria to its pre-Arab Spring ways if that was possible. Under Assad, Syria would be far less of a threat to global security.

But to imagine that we can return to those days is an illusion. The truth is that the Assad regime bears the most responsibility for the situation in Syria. First, by virtue of keeping Syria an authoritarian police state for four decades, and refusing any meaningful reform. When he gained power, many in the West hoped that Assad Jr. would be a moderate that would modernize and liberalize his country. Those hopes were dashed, either through Assad's lack of willingness or lack of courage. His response to the initial protests paved the way for this civil war, and his unwillingness to step down continued it. Mubarak at least had the decency of resigning after three weeks.

The Assad regime is responsible for roughly 200,000 of the 300,000 deaths in Syria (along with his allies, Iran and Hizbullah, who participate directly in the fighting). The regime has killed and tortured far more Syrians than ISIS. Most displaced Syrians were displaced by the actions of the national Syrian Army, not the actions of rebel groups, extremist or otherwise. The regime used siege and famine as weapons, starving rebel strongholds to submission, including the large Al-Yarmuk Palestinian refugee camp near Damascus. Assad used chemical weapons against civilians in his own capital. I think this sentence needs to be read more than once to be fully appreciated. If I could go back in time and tell people that in 2012, a dictator used weapons of mass destruction in his own freaking capital against civilians, and that many people would later consider him a viable partner for diplomatic efforts in the region, I would have been laughed at.

The Sunni population of Syria will never accept Assad as their ruler, and for good reason. He killed their sons and daughters, he tortured them, he gassed them, he starved them, he oppressed them. This is why the rebellion has gone on for so long despite the efforts of four highly trained military forces fighting against the rebels: the Syrian army, Hizbullah, Iran's Revolutionary Guard and now Russia.

It's not about the 'devil we know', or the unpalatable realities of global politics. This is a ruler that has zero legitimacy with the majority in his country, and importantly, the majority on whom groups like ISIS rely on for support . The military chief quoted here is, in my opinion, very wrong. You cannot defeat ISIS by keeping Assad in power, the hatred towards him is the main engine driving the growth and influence of ISIS. And it's also morally repugnant.

I don't know how you go from saying Assad is the more rational one then make the rest of it about convincing Assad being worse than ISIS. There's no proof for who conducted the chemical bombings as of yet, just theories. Why would Assad who was already facing international opposition commit a political suicide and risk inviting US/Nato in the wake of what happened to Gaddafi and Saddam? It makes no sense. In the months prior to the Ghouta attack, Al Nusra captured a chemical plant in Aleppo, was later found holding chemical weapons as well. You're giving Assad too much credit if you think only he would have the audacity to use chemical weapons while in possession of them. Also, where are you getting the numbers for 300,000 killed? UN puts the total at 220,000. I'd like to see a source on the distribution of the scores killed that is not Syrian Obervatory/Network For Human Rights as they're transparently biased.

Massacring Sunni muslims are fair points, but I'm not sure we can credit Assad entirely for rise in their extremism considering ISIS was born in Iraq and spread when U.S. smashed the government to bits. The majority of Sunny fighters not with ISIS are bankrolled by foreign powers. Assad has faced opposition from or directly funded by Turkey, Qatar, Saudi, Jordan, Israel, U.S., U.K., France, Al Qaeda, ISIS before Iran and Russia saved him. How is this a civil war? And how's supporting "rebels" once allied with Al Qaeda or eventually joining ISIS for being morally repugnant?
 
I'm curious if the West supports Assad, there could be some kind of stipulations where he'll remain in power for the time being, but there has to be democratic elections or something like that.
 
At this point there are just too many dead, too many displaced, and too much destruction for Assad to ever be seen as the legitimate leader of Syria in the eyes of many civilians. At this point all I can see happening is either divide the country, which in itself has its own issues or just unfortunately wait until the prevailing view in the middle east is that "our" (sunni, shia, etc,) extremists are viewed as more distasteful then those of other religious sects. Truthfully there can only be a lasting piece when their are institutions in place to combat and punish extremism that have the popular support of all it's people, and doesn't maintain control with brutal force. While the Saddams and the Assads of the world could reign in extremism it simultaneously creates an environment which fosters people to adopt extremist ideology.
 

Madness

Member
Never happened unless you got proof for that.

What do you mean? The US has already suspended drone flights where Russia is operating due to fear of crossfire and engagement and has officially suspended their training and armament campaign. Whether they are keeping any special or black ops support is soemthing we'll never know, but for now, officially the US still publicly states they support the rebels, are anti-Assad but are doing nothing and just watching Russia steamroll over the rebels with daily bombings.
 

Aureon

Please do not let me serve on a jury. I am actually a crazy person.
After the very enlightening experiences of what removing Saddam, Mubarak and Gaddafi caused... yeah, he may be right.
 

antonz

Member
I'm curious if the West supports Assad, there could be some kind of stipulations where he'll remain in power for the time being, but there has to be democratic elections or something like that.

Well that is what Russia is claiming they want. "Fair elections" but Assad must be allowed to Run. Problem is Russia does not know what fair elections are
 
It's not about the 'devil we know', or the unpalatable realities of global politics. This is a ruler that has zero legitimacy with the majority in his country, and importantly, the majority on whom groups like ISIS rely on for support . The military chief quoted here is, in my opinion, very wrong. You cannot defeat ISIS by keeping Assad in power, the hatred towards him is the main engine driving the growth and influence of ISIS. And it's also morally repugnant.

What do you think the solution is?
 
Keeping Assad in power also means defeating every other faction opposed to his rule though. This didn't start with IS and the SAA is not only fighting IS. Are Al Nusra or the FSA willing to put their guns down? The only possible solution to this is if Assad steps down and a secular representative government is elected. Even if elections are held there is the risk Islamists gain power like in Egypt because it seems many Arabs would prefer an intolerant Islamic state than a secular liberal democracy.
 
many of the people fighting Assad are batshit insane, if the syrian goverment collapses they are the ones that are going to take over , like in Libya.
 

Wellscha

Member
It's ironic how the west was clamoring for democratic Middle East, but then realized that by removing dictators, you get even worse hardliners.
 
What do you mean? The US has already suspended drone flights where Russia is operating due to fear of crossfire and engagement and has officially suspended their training and armament campaign. Whether they are keeping any special or black ops support is soemthing we'll never know, but for now, officially the US still publicly states they support the rebels, are anti-Assad but are doing nothing and just watching Russia steamroll over the rebels with daily bombings.

Somethings are wrong with your statements. Firstly, I think the US never bombed areas near rebel controlled areas unless it was near the Turkey border or near kurdish areas. They only ever bombed Nursa areas in rebel territory , but that was months ago. Plus it wasn't just drone strikes but actual airstrikes using jets. Secondly, the train and equipment program was DoD thing and was to only fight ISIL . The CIA still is supplying the rebels.


http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/10/28/us-mideast-crisis-usa-idUSKCN0SM2TH20151028
http://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-allies-to-boost-aid-to-syria-rebels-1446682624
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/10/24/cia-armed-rebels-march-on-assad-homeland.html
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/10/19/us-mideast-crisis-syria-aleppo-idUSKCN0SD16O20151019
http://www.businessinsider.com/the-us-is-supplying-syrian-rebels-with-weapons-2015-10
http://justpaste.it/NovemberATGM
http://justpaste.it/OctoberATGM

Documents all the airstrikes
http://www.defense.gov/News-Article...-strikes-target-isil-terrorists-in-syria-iraq
http://www.defense.gov/News/Special-Reports/0814_Inherent-Resolve
 

pa22word

Member
Assad has barrel bombed more civilians into oblivion than ISIS, Nusra and all other terrorist scumbag army combined. Fuck the devil.

Take this post back to 2003 and change a few variables and you'd get a fairly close result to what GWB was arguing in favor to get involved in Iraq in the first place, and can you really say that the result of "fuck the devil" that we've found ourselves in has been for the better? Seriously?

At the end of the day fixing an assad, or a hussein with military intervention from a foreign power takes decades and trillions of dollars to do (see: japan and germany), and at this moment none of the big powers have the mandate to do something like that outside of Russia, and they probably don't have the money nor the will (they'll just dump isis and keep the dictatorship running) to remain fully committed to such an affair anyways.
 
I don't doubt that Assad is far more rational and responsible than ISIS, that much is clear to anyone. Under the Assad dynasty, Syria was at the very least a functioning country.

From a point of political convenience it might seem like Assad is the best bet in Syria, and no doubt most people would be happy to return Syria to its pre-Arab Spring ways if that was possible. Under Assad, Syria would be far less of a threat to global security.

But to imagine that we can return to those days is an illusion. The truth is that the Assad regime bears the most responsibility for the situation in Syria. First, by virtue of keeping Syria an authoritarian police state for four decades, and refusing any meaningful reform. When he gained power, many in the West hoped that Assad Jr. would be a moderate that would modernize and liberalize his country. Those hopes were dashed, either through Assad's lack of willingness or lack of courage. His response to the initial protests paved the way for this civil war, and his unwillingness to step down continued it. Mubarak at least had the decency of resigning after three weeks.
I dont think its practical at all to compare Bashar al Assad with Mubarak, because the Christian and Alawite minorities in Syria necessitated an entirely different, more gradual transition of power that the (largely Sunni) protesters simply were not prepared to accept. The speed of Mubarak's exit gave protesters in other countries an unrealistic template of reform and they wanted nothing short of total capitulation from Bashar and his gang.
Feeling cornered, Bashar made the mistake of empowering bloodthirsty generals he could neither control nor reign in and the rest is the shocking history of state sponsored torture and massacre and radicalized Islamist groups supported by the GCC.
 

coleco

Member
So Putin was right.

Of course he was. The game the US has been playing in Syria while pretending to be backing 'moderate' rebels has been disgusting. Their only interest in the region is to topple Assad, they don't give a fuck about anything else happening there.
 
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