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[Father_Brain]

I have to say that I'm baffled how anyone who claims to give a shit about poverty in this country can oppose increasing the minimum wage. Then again, I can't say I'm exactly in touch with the "compassionate" fiscal conservative mindset.

 

[Cool]

You couldn't support yourself or a home on 7/hour. Everything else is going up in price without an increase in wages. You can only squeeze the worker so much.

I agree, minimum wage should be raised just to compensate for the prices of every damn item in the US and its brother going up in price.

 

[Overseer]

I agree, minimum wage should be raised just to compensate for the prices of every damn item in the US and its brother going up in price.

AKA: Gasoline.

 

[Bishman]

I thought about that too. Everything is rising, min. wage should go up.

 

[levious]

I'm sorry I really don't have pity on people with families that work for minimum wages. It is so easy for low income or minorities to get grants for college now days, that if you don't take advantage of it.. then you deserve your lot in life. After all it is COMPELTELY your fault if you get pregant while you can't support yourself let alone a child. Rape notwithstanding of course.

Ok, so

1) All people are qualified to attend college and are capable of earning a degree.

2) The Pell Grant just keeps getting bigger and is more than enough to cover all reasonable expenses.

3) All methods of birth control are 100% percent effective.

What other nuggets of wisdom do you have for us?

MAF is on the ball with this. Very few of us have lived poor at any time in our lives.

 

[BigGreenMat]

yeah, it is true, almost no one on here is poor. I mean to say that making 18k a year with 2 kids and a wife is poverty is ridiculous. Maybe if you lived in the cheapest place in the country. Heck you couldn't get a family of 4 by on 30 grand in a lot of places. Being single and making 30 grand a year I am not poor, but I am hardly rich. Since I live in chicago there is no way I could ever own a home or even get close. Hell there would be no way for me to do that and have enough money to even have a car (which I have to live without now because it is too expensive).

 

[Dilbert]

As I think I've said before, I favor raising the minimum wage. However, I think the minimum wage should be set regionally, based on the cost of living, and recalculated every year or two to keep up with the changing economy.

The whole point of a minimum wage is supposed to be to establish a minimum LIVING STANDARD...which varies from place to place. The value of $5.15/hr varies significantly between a major urban center, and the middle of nowhere.

 

[firex]

I work 10-20 hours a week, depending on my school schedule. I guess the cost of living is low down here.

That's going to be great when you live on your own, really.

 

[AniHawk]

Minimum wage here is $6.75/hr (SoCal).

 

[LushRimbaugh]

Raising the minimum wage is bad. Check a book.

When you raise the minimum wage above the equilibrium wage (Which is the only time a minimum wage is effective), Quantity Demanded is less than Supply Demanded, resulting in a surplus of low wage workers i.e unemployment.

The only thing that is even debatable is how much of an effect this has on the job market. No matter what its not a good thing.

Anyway this would only help 15 year olds with first jobs. Do any of you REALLY know anyone who makes minimum wage? If so they deserve to get it. Any idiot can go to wal-mart or best buy or even a grocery store and make 7 dollars or more anyway.

Kerry knows that the average idiot will hear that he wants to raise the minimum wage, and how wonderful he must be do to that, when all it will do is be bad for low skilled workers in some way. It sounds good, but really isn't good.

 

[Gregory]

Man does america suck. 5 dollars an hour? How can people live off that?

I live in Norway, a country you americans would propably percieve as a socialist country yet the minimum wage around here is around 17-18 dollars an hour. The average working salary is 55.000 dollars a year.

Oh, and we have have free healthcare and college too.
God bless america, eh?

edit, I forgot to mention that we also have 5 weeks of fully paid vacation a year, lol.

 

[Celicar]

My opinion is if someone is willing to work for $5.15/hour, let them. Who says people trying to support themselves have to take a job paying that? There are other lots of options out there. I could easily go to JCPenney or Sears and make $7+/hour.

If all you know how to do is make Big Macs, you deserve to make $5.15/hour.

 

[videogamer]

Man does america suck. 5 dollars an hour? How can people live off that?

I live in Norway, a country you americans would propably percieve as a socialist country yet the minimum wage around here is around 17-18 dollars an hour. The average working salary is 55.000 dollars a year.

Oh, and we have have free healthcare and college too.
God bless america, eh?

Well you guys have a lot of oil and that helps out

 

[Gregory]

Well you guys have a lot of oil and that helps out

Sure, but not all that much. The other Scandinavian countries have almost as high living standards, yet they have no oil so..

 

[videogamer]

Sure, but not all that much. The other Scandinavian countries have almost as high living standards, yet they have no oil so..

Erm, I'm sure the forum conservatives will be quick to criticize any attempts to emulate Europe. I could keep on going, but I'll let them do the work.

 

[AntoneM]

it's great idea, the minimum wage hasn't been raised since the mid 90's and a whole hell of a lot of economic growth has occured since then

 

[Pachinko]

Au contrair mon frair. I actually have lived in a pretty pathetic situation when I was still in elementary school. The kind of pathetic where your parents can't afford the 1.10 needed for me to catch my bus to school and then come home again , the kind of pathetic where you can have only 1 meal a day and it's a small meal, like instant noodles or a pot of macaroni with some cheesewhiz ... 3 nights in a row. Where you live withought any of the bills being up to date , and the power being on a switch so if you use more then 300 watts at once in the house it shuts off. I lived like that for close to a month once , and quite frankly I'd rather not live like that again , for the rest of my life. That was minimum wage / welfare living for 3 people in a condo.

 

[siamesedreamer]

I agree, minimum wage should be raised just to compensate for the prices of every damn item in the US and its brother going up in price.

And you honestly think that by raising the minimum wage all those items would suddenly become affordable?

Take a Widget made in Anytown, USA. In order to make a Widget it requires 2 man hours at $5.15 an hour. Now, let's raise the rate of a man hour to $7.15. Do you think that Acme Corp is still gonna keep the price of their Widgets at $XXX in light of the fact that the cost to produce each widget just went up by $4.00?

Its simple economics. You raise the price of the cheapest labor and it has a definate impact on the price of goods and services - they go up in cost.

I'm not saying that we're not due for a minimum wage increase, but a 40% (roughly) increase is way too much at one time.

 

[Mandark]

Its simple economics. You raise the price of the cheapest labor and it has a definate impact on the price of goods and services - they go up in cost.

Except the cost of a widget is not entirely dependent on minimum wage labor, which means the increase in the cost of a widget will be a fraction of the increase in the wage. The smallness of the fraction depending on just what kind of widget we're talking about.

If all you know how to do is make Big Macs, you deserve to make $5.15/hour.

I am strongly against your proposed law to deprive upper- and middle-class young adults from receiving any support from their families. Just because you say people "deserve" only what their marketable skills can provide them doesn't mean a loving parents shouldn't be able to help pay for college. That's mean.

 

[LushRimbaugh]

Once again, read any economics book. Raising minumum wage is widely excepted as being bad for low wage workers causing unemployment.

 

[Mr. Blonde]

A price floor(min wage) of $7 would only result in a surplus of labor(unemployment)if the equalibrium was below $7. Right now, based on the number of people who work for exactly minimum wage in industries like fast food, I'd say that the equalibrium is definitely above $5.15. Therefore I think a gradual increase of minimum wage would not hurt.

 

[DDayton]

Personally, I think the arguement that folks have to live on minimum wage is rather annoying... if you try, you can get well above minimum wage by working in a different job. Raising the minimum wage will result in a rise in costs for small and local businesses, which will result in either fewer jobs OR higher prices.

I worked as a security guard through college and was being paid about $10 an hour, 5 years ago... and that required nothing more than a high school diploma. I've spent time working as a subsitute teacher, which requires JUST a bachelors degree ... and that pays between $90 and $130 a day (for a mere 6 hours, may I add). Getting paid more than minimum wage is perfectly possible, but it does require some sacrifice in what you are willing to do...

 

[Cool]

HIGH SCHOOLERS WORKING MINIMUM WAGE AT A CRAPPY FOOD PLACE FOR KERRY'S MINIMUM WAGE PLAN!

 

[Pimpwerx]

There's nothing wrong with raising the minimum wage. It simply isn't sufficient to live on. If you've ever *lived* on minimum wage and tips, you would know this. There is a widening gap between the have and have nots, and inflation isn't slowing any. So prices go up, but the bottom end stays the same. The problem is that we exist in a flawed system that simply refuses to balance itself. So it seems like it's the blame of minimum wage for layoffs and all this stuff, but that's simply wrong. The problem is the growth trend and the increased productivity of the individual worker. People are working harder for less so the companies can post growth figures they want. It's got nothing to do with what the system can handle or not IMO. I say raise the min wage and then balance the system in other areas. You should be able to make a living wage without having to kill yourself for it. PEACE.

 

[Zaptruder]

the negative economic effects will occur with wage hikes. But the effects will be absorbed eventually; and with intelligent planning alot of it can be mitigated.

On the otherhand, the assurance of a minimum standard of living is pretty important; in the end the wealth should be redistributed meaningfully, and those that work shouldn't be taken advantage of so easily.

 

[Raven.]

If all you know how to do is make Big Macs, you deserve to make $5.15/hour.

NO, that's not right!!! Even if you don't work, you should be free to do as you like, to be provided food from any restaurant, and several luxuries like cable/net/state of the art equipment/free private transportation(bmw, ferraris, or whatever you want, private jets), free health care, free education, free cosmetic surgery, freedom of travelling around the world with all expenses paid. Society should maintain you for the rest of your life, oh and you should be ageless, so they should maintain you indefinitely

I know some are afraid such a system might break, but I've already got a solution for a persistent system, controlled reproduction . As long as society has sufficient tech(adequate levels of automation, as we'll have in a few decades), and controls population growth, no one may ever need to work again. Thus free from a need for work, people would be free to pursue their dreams, be it art, musics, sports, science, education, or yeah mmorpgs, or the tube... Harry Potter came out of such circumstances, and many other excellent works have too!!!

Some may oppose this, but I'm sure the majority is with me. We must bring forth a world which has been whispered in legends, fables, fairy tales and the like, throughout the ages.
An utopic world, an IDEAL WORLD. The means to bring to submission the nations that oppose this will be within reach within this very century... and the time will come when it's time to make a choice...

 

[Pimpwerx]

My opinion is if someone is willing to work for $5.15/hour, let them. Who says people trying to support themselves have to take a job paying that? There are other lots of options out there. I could easily go to JCPenney or Sears and make $7+/hour.

If all you know how to do is make Big Macs, you deserve to make $5.15/hour.

Sheltered much? You are young and naive, and obviously know nothing about real life. Go work a real shitty job for a bit. I worked delivery on and off for a year after I graduated, and did so for a year in college. I worked with a lot of lifers. I mean lifetime cooks and waitresses. These are good, common folk who for one reason or another can't/didn't get the same education I did, or the same opportunities. I worked with a lady who was raising a kid and taking classes on minimum wage and tips, and getting her degree isn't gonna help her much. A LOT of people do this, and the minimum pay is just embarassing. I don't like watching people struggle when you know it's not a lack of resources, but a lack of funds. Money != resources....Let me say that again. MONEY DOES NOT EQUAL RESOURCES. The capitalist system we live in puts a price on work/productivity, which is the cancer that is spreading. Businesses know that they can drive up profits by increasing productivity. I think it's been proven that people are working harder these days. We are a ton more productive, so the businesses cut back jobs to boost profits. That's nothing to do with resources, it's all about money. It's a fucking crock.

For you to say too bad is bullshit. Working at BK is no easier than working for a computer firm. One guy got more years of college, that's all. The daily grind still sucks, and the daily grind still produces a service to the public. Thus, the daily grind should (IMO) be compensated equally in both cases. Yes, I said "equally". Is there really a reason I deserve to be paid more than some burger flipper who works twice as long and hard as me, but makes less? No. There's something to be said for socialism in that it tried to right these inherent flaws in the system. A minimum wage is a way of saying, "hey, your contribution does not go unnoticed." Funny enough, an increase to $7/hr still only proposes a marginal increase in income, but some will scare us into thinking it will sink the entire economy. It just shows how fucked up things are right now that we can't even afford the bare minimum anymore.

Oh yeah, those minimum wagers still pay our Social Security and Medicare AFAIK. They deserve it my ass. Get a clue Celicar. PEACE.

 

[Tommie Hu$tle]

A price floor(min wage) of $7 would only result in a surplus of labor(unemployment)if the equalibrium was below $7. Right now, based on the number of people who work for exactly minimum wage in industries like fast food, I'd say that the equalibrium is definitely above $5.15. Therefore I think a gradual increase of minimum wage would not hurt.

Just like raising the min wage last time lead to wave of unemployment and driving the economy down the drain. This is a scare tactic that has yet to pan out. The example that people keep using that min wage is only for high schoolers and burger flippers is specious at best. There are several industries such as data processing and/or professions that have spectacular turnover rates that offer min wage. They are called entry-level jobs for a reason.

The logic error with the argument that some of you are making is that all they need to do is sacrifice in order to make progress and that is 100% true however one needs a cash reserve or some other way to subsidize at least the basic necessities. If you are making from 5.15 - 10.00 and hour the lion’s share of your take home pay is going to your basic necessities (rent, power, fuel, transportation, food) and as a result you are less able to handle and/or recover from bumps in the road. Now then you all will argue well get another job/get more education well even if they do that and move up the economic ladder those jobs still need to be done and done cheaply.

So you could either
1. Outsource your labor keeps prices cheap for consumers. But, raises unemployment.
2. Continue to employ entry-level workers at the same levels that we pay them not, which keeps employment up and cost low, but standard of living down.


You all seem to fail to realize while you are lamenting those that make less as lazy, stupid, prone to having kids as teenagers that we as a society desire entry level works to keep our costs down. The problem is that the min wage is not keeping up with the price of goods and services. As a result the workers that we need to perform those entry-level jobs are now finding it more and more difficult to make it to those jobs because they are spending more than ever on basic necessities to make it there. We are also failing to include the price of health care in the mix.

 

[Cool]

My opinion is if someone is willing to work for $5.15/hour, let them. Who says people trying to support themselves have to take a job paying that? There are other lots of options out there. I could easily go to JCPenney or Sears and make $7+/hour.

If all you know how to do is make Big Macs, you deserve to make $5.15/hour.

That's the most close minded, ignorant, assholeish statement I have ever read, that only an idiot narcissist son of a CEO wrapped up in Bush propaganda would make.

Working shitty minimum wage jobs is not fun, and they deserve more. These are the common people who work hard and serve idiot corporate sleezebags who are too rich for their damn good anyway. A person definitely should not be looked down upon for working a minimum wage job as they are people, too. It's sad that anyone would be that arrogant and heartless to say they "only deserve $5.15 an hour". With all of our jobs being outsourced as it is, not everyone can just go to "JCPenney or Sears" and get a "$7 an hour job" like the touch of a wand. These minimum wage jobs must be taken. There always has to be the people doing jobs in the food service or any other service that doesn't pay real well, and they deserve to make more. People who work jobs like that have families to provide for, college loans to pay, or anything other expense hindering their life and deserve to be paid more than $5.15 an hour.

I'm sorry, you have to be in some big corporate family or something that's just worried you won't get your little tax breaks when Bush loses this election.

PS: I realize Pimpwerx already wrote a response to this comment, but I felt like I had to add something to something so ridiculous.

 

[Cauliflower of Love]

Some dude down here(miami) running for mayor/city counsel/one of those fucking jobs, was asked during a debate what he thought of kerry's plan to raise the minimun wage to $7 dollars, and if he would support it, even up to $6. "Raising the wage a buck isn't gonna get people out of poverty." .....EXACT words....wtf is wrong with people?

 

[siamesedreamer]

Except the cost of a widget is not entirely dependent on minimum wage labor

That's correct. The Widget is built from parts aquired from other companies who had to raise the prices of those parts to offset the rise in the cost of their labor to produce those parts. Thus, not only does ACME corporation have to take into account the rise in the cost of their parts, they also have to take into account the rise in the cost of their labor.

Everything is relative. A 40% increase in the minimum wage is way too much at one time.

 

[BigGreenMat]

I just think it is important for all you people on here against raising the minimum wage that it isn't going to go overnight to 7 dollars. It will be a gradual gain(I forget if Kerry said over the next 4 or 8 years), but a gain nonetheless, whereas it hasn't moved at all for a LONG time now. Kerry isn't an imbecile that will just one day raise minimum wage 35%. It will probably be an 8% increase each year for 4 years. Hell I am surprised it doesn't raise the 2 or 3% along with inflation.

 

[CrunchyB]

I live in Norway, a country you americans would propably percieve as a socialist country yet the minimum wage around here is around 17-18 dollars an hour. The average working salary is 55.000 dollars a year.

Can you source that? It seems a bit much to me.

 

[Cool]

It's all because of the widening gap between the rich and the poor. It disgusts me that we have people outsourcing jobs overseas and paying foriegn people for only a fraction of what they paid people in America in sweatshops, and the people who do this are awarded for this by a tax break.

And then you have the relegious Republicans who argue that they support Bush because he better supports their Christian morals. I don't think Christ would be for giving all of America's money to the rich and paying little money to people in other countries and being rewarded for it.

 

[siamesedreamer]

Outsourcing started way before Bush took office.

 

[Overseer]

Outsourcing started way before Bush took office.

First I am a Kerry supporter but siamesedreamer is 100% right. Outsourcing is wrong, stupid, and harming to the U.S. But, it happen long before Bush took office. The only thing we can blame Bush for is not stopping it. That seems to be a very common misconception.

 

[Gek54]

God damn fucking democrats. Raising the minimum only devalues our dollar even more. I was all ready to vote for Kerry, but fuck that.

 

[siamesedreamer]

Outsourcing is wrong, stupid, and harming to the U.S.

That depends on how you look at it.

Do you want to have to pay $1500 for a new Dell because its being made in the US or do you want to be able to buy three new Dell computers for $1500 because its being made in Singapore?

What's an acceptable trade off in terms of lost jobs and cheap products? What's better for the economy?

 

[Overseer]

I guess which you determine to be the lesser of two bads. I mean I honestly would rather pay another $300 for a new desktop knowing that I was helping a single mother feed her 4 year and infant.

 

[Spike Spiegel]

First I am a Kerry supporter but siamesedreamer is 100% right. Outsourcing is wrong, stupid, and harming to the U.S. But, it happen long before Bush took office. The only thing we can blame Bush for is not stopping it. That seems to be a very common misconception.

Outsourcing cannot be stopped.

 

[Overseer]

Outsourcing cannot be stopped.

Yes, but there can be measures to try and stop it as much as possible. Nothing that is bad can be completely stopped. I know "some" measures were taken but not nearly enough funding was spent on outsourcing.

 

[Cool]

Outsourcing started way before Bush took office.

Yeah, yeah, but never as significant as it has been now, losing 1.6 million jobs isn't apple pie and candy.

 

[Pimpwerx]

There are so many flaws in the system to nitpick, that it's almost pointless.

1. Outsourcing is the future. Globalization is inevitable, it's the way the markets are moving towards consolidation (ha, it's not just the gaming industry). I mean, the business models just works better on a large scale. Ask Walmart. So companies will get bigger and go global. As a result, they'll farm out labor to the cheaper areas b/c it's simply most cost effective to do so. Personally, I'm for globalization b/c it represents wealth redistribution on a global scale. Unfortunately, that's all in theory. In practice, it's a predatory system that exploits poorer countries who are desperate for the jobs. Ying and yang. :?

2. Inflation can be offset by redistibuting wealth. There should be plenty of money in the system to support everyone. Money's no resource, I say again. The problem is that there is money there, but more and more, it's horded by the wealthy, meaning the earnings gap widens, bu the mean (average cost of living) still continues to rise. It's like a problem they're facing in Miami now. One of the low wager cities in the US, but property value is skyrocketing way out of the range of anyone who lives here. If you bought a house a little while ago, you're best off sitting on that property until it gets high in value. If not, and you don't have the funds, then prepare to rent or buy property in shitty areas. That's simply not fair. What, you are penalized for not buying early? Everything's not equal, so it once again disadvantages the poor and tilts the advantage to the rich who get richer. I don't like it. If you raise the bottom end and cap the top end, then everyone in the system can thrive with the funds we have now. Raising the minimum wage means cutting something at the top. I'm not gonna shed a tear. It's like the tax cuts. They should have had a stipulation that said all tax savings HAVE to go towards creating new jobs in the US. Without it, the cuts have ended up doing exactly what some of us predicted, it made rich people richer and hasn't done fuck all for the economy. Supply-side (aka Reaganomics) simply does not work.

I really don't see why we need to employ complicated schemes where money trickles down when it seems to make the most sense to give the money directly to the people who need it, and then modify the rest of the system to cope with the change. Cut out the middle man. Wealthy business owners don't make good middle men IMO. Anyway, I'm rambling and I've probably misstated a few things. Time to roll out of here. PEACE.

 

[Cool]

God damn fucking democrats. Raising the minimum only devalues our dollar even more. I was all ready to vote for Kerry, but fuck that.

No. Wrong. It needs to be raised JUST TO COMPENSATE for all the raises in prices on everything in our economy in the last SEVEN DAMN YEARS. What? What's your idea? Have minimum wage at $5.15 for the rest of time?

 

[videogamer]

No. Wrong. It needs to be raised JUST TO COMPENSATE for all the raises in prices on everything in our economy in the last SEVEN DAMN YEARS. What? What's your idea? Have minimum wage at $5.15 for the rest of time?

Ideally there would be no minimum wage at all.

 

[siamesedreamer]

Yeah, yeah, but never as significant as it has been now, losing 1.6 million jobs

Wrong. Only a fraction of those jobs were lost overseas and that number is factually incorrect. Mix in a little factcheck.org once in a while and you might learn something.

 

[Cool]

In fact, as of November the job loss since President Bush took office in January 2001 stood at 2.26 million, as measured by the Bureau of Labor Statistics.

Fine, simeasedreamer, I read up on it on the website you referred me to, and that's what I got, I guess it's even higher than I thought it was.

 

[siamesedreamer]

Kerry twice claimed 1.6 million jobs have been lost under Bush, which is 1 million too high.

http://www.factcheck.org/article281.html

Scroll down about 3/5 of the way to "Recycled Bunkum".

 

[Celicar]

Outsourcing is great. Cheaper products mean I can buy more stuff. Thank you Bush for encouraging companies to outsource.

Hopefully there will be plenty more of it in the future.

 

[FoneBone]

Outsourcing is great. Cheaper products mean I can buy more stuff. Thank you Bush for encouraging companies to outsource.

Hopefully there will be plenty more of it in the future.

...

I wish I could say I was convinced that he's a joke character.