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[nib95]

I'm utterly confused about this control debate. Completely. I heard the crying before I played the demo but my very first thought once I gained control was... "what the fuck are these guys talking about?" I have absolutely no idea what any of you guys are talking about when it comes to "lag" and "delay" because I haven't experienced anything of the sort.

Seriously, i'm scratching my head here.

I'd imagine it's because they are either a.) bad at the game, b.) not used to the controls or c.) trying to find yet one more thing to moan, complain or troll about.

It's weird, because I knew 30+ people in the BETA, and dozens posted on these forums. None complained about the controls outside of "they took a few minutes to get used to", yet from the demo you get all this. I think it's just the usual people with just another set of complaints. I think it utterly ridiculous though that posters such as Dirtbag can even begin to think their opinion mimics that of the "mainstream" gamer. Crystal ball much? :lol

 

[The Chef]

The controls definitely took me a moment to get the hang of. But thats usually the case with all new games isn't it? On my first play thought I definitely melee attacked as opposed to aim - but a few minutes later it felt solid. I really don't understand everyone's problem with it. I'm going to get used to the Alt 2 controls thought - probably best for multiplayer.

 

[jonnyp]

Do you not understand? It's called WEIGHT. This is NOT a twitch shooter. The stick is not going to move the gun IMMEDIATELY.


Think of it this way. You're pushing a broken down car. At first when you start pushing it doesn't move, once you get a little momentum going you're pushing it at 10mph. Do you get that?

Now look at how Killzone controls. Imagine you have 30-40 pounds of gear on plus your weapons. Things just have weight.

Yeah, some people just don't understand the concept of inertia.

 

[DoomGyver]

Good grief, some people will never be pleased.

Yeah, some people just don't understand the concept of inertia.

Indeed, and that's not even taking the fact that it's on Planet Helghan, which most likely has a different level of gravitational pull.

 

[Private Hoffman]

It's not really rocket science.
I think its certainly a gamble when you already so clearly have a winning hand.

Its like splitting 10's.

You also realize that CoD4 handles very differently from Halo, right? And CoD ended up being more popular than Halo, even if a vocal minority didn't end up liking CoD at all.

Sure, anything's a gamble, but you're blowing the issue way the fuck up.

Joe blow is going to be taken in by the graphics, and even if it doesn't control exactly as he's used to, I don't think they'll really care in the end. It's really not a big deal.

 

[Dirtbag]

So they will complain after they buy Killzone 2.

And load up gamestop with used copies, and their friends won't buy it to play with them, and others will decide not to buy a ps3 to play it.

Stop looking at this like it should be a flash in the pants launch day success ONLY.
Cause I have no question this is going to launch really really well.

 

[JB1981]

There's got to be some kind of crazy weird Xbox-only owner overlap going on here: that's the only explanation I can think of with all this controller lag bitching.

 

[the_prime_mover]

Sony wants this game to sell. Throwing a tantrum won't help,they should make the controls better for the mainstream,no? This could be like the next Halo or Golden Eye, in that those games sold a ton of systems,they were automatic system sellers. Sony has a great game here,bettering the controls would make it more than likely a more accessible game for first timers. I'm ok with the control but I do wish they would tweak it abit more overall myself. It'll make a great game just that much better.

I think the problem over the past 10 - 15 pages has been that some of people think that changing the controls so they represent some other game's controls would be making the controls of KZ2 "better". That really isn't the case. The controls would be different, sure. More accessible to people coming from those other games? Perhaps. But "better"? We can't even begin to qualify that statement. The controls work perfectly within the framework of this game. The detractors need to stop blaming this game for not being like others.

If you don't like the controls then it is best to just move along rather then spend page after page trying to convince yourselves, and the rest of us, that this is somehow the game's fault, and we (the supporters) are just too dense to get it.

Sony has shown a lot of faith in GG's vision, and up to this point GG has been rock steady. They have developed something new and exciting and sure enough, as has been evinced by this current thread of conversation, gamers are going through some growing pains. If GG bows to the vocal minority, the atrophied gamer, then I think we all lose.

Perhaps this won't be the game that ends up being the next CS or COD4, but I do think it is the herald of a new control paradigm that will become more standard going forward. Not for all shooters, sure. But for some? Absolutely. We only benefit from bold attempts. As gamers, it behooves us to embrace new ideas. However, with that said, we should also be critical of their implementation. Not because we are stubborn and resistant to change, but because we can appreciate their success and should seek to propel those successes forward. Unfortunately, much of the current conversation does not seem reflect the intent of the latter.

 

[Woo-Fu]

It's not really rocket science.
I think its certainly a gamble when you already so clearly have a winning hand.

Its like splitting 10's.

A gamble? Gambling would be changing something that seemingly most people who have played the demo are comfortable with.

Your argument holds no weight. Think about it, for every person the new scheme draws in there might be somebody it pushes away. Since you don't have any idea what those numbers actually are it obviously IS rocket science.

If they make any non-optional change before release I hope they release a new demo because I'm planning on buying the game based upon what was in the demo. No bait and switch, please, GG.

 

[SSM25]

The controls are the best I have ever experienced in a FPS to date, I fucking hate the floaty weightless feel of other games. if people don't like it, there are other games out there to play instead of bitching like little girls.

 

[Cruzader]

I don't play FPS too often, and I found the controls to be enjoyable.

Well Dirtbag, seems the "mainstream" gets along fine with the gameplay/controls so that mean there's no lag BS. If he gets it means you and others are playing it wrong.

 

[MoonsaultSlayer]

Nope, and I agree with you.

This goes to everyone who doesn't like the lack of crouch hold on/off option:

Seriously? I kind of like the ability to get off of cover by letting go of the button instead of reaching back up and pushing it again. THAT woukd be even more unbearable if you ask me. Besides, it makes sense. Taking cover forces you in a position where you need to hold tight to a wall. Makes sense to hold a button lol.

 

[cakefoo]

There will always be another Call of Duty this year. If that's what people want they'll get it... again. But please, keep it the fuck off my Killzone 2. This game isn't suppose to be a clone and I'm thankful for that. I don't want another 1:1 experience where I am at the top of my game after 30 minutes of play.

There is PLENTY to differentiate Killzone 2 from the feel of other FPS's. SO much more immersive than other shooters- you crouch, and your gun softly rocks up and down. You reload, and your head tilts. You jump, and you feel like a camera's attached to someone's head. It puts Mirror's Edge to FUCKING SHAME. But it doesn't need the learning curve with the controls. And I don't need the learning curve to extend the lifetime of the game's appeal. Heck, I've put in 50 hours of left 4 dead on PC in the last 2 weeks, and I pretty much mastered mouse keyboard about 6 years ago.

 

[pseudocaesar]

Whats the deal with the color settings? I had to go into my tv settings and bump up the brightness like crazy just to make the symbol appear. When I got in the game it was way too bright. Tried it again.. this time ignoring the symbol and it looked amazing.

Switch RGB full off, or too limited. If you have RGB full range on, you can get black crush on some tv's.

 

[Woo-Fu]

This goes to everyone who doesn't like the lack of crouch hold on/off option:

Seriously? I kind of like the ability to get off of cover by letting go of the button instead of reaching back up and pushing it again. THAT woukd be even more unbearable if you ask me. Besides, it makes sense. Taking cover forces you in a position where you need to hold tight to a wall. Makes sense to hold a button lol.

I prefer holding it too but I don't see any problem with making toggle crouch an option, that way everybody gets what they want, right?

Oh snap, I'm open-minded and I have a killzown'd avatar, call the press!

 

[cakefoo]

Instead of flicking, try making fine movements. There is no latency.

Look, mr brick wall, I just got done reasoning logically with you about how the flick test you call "stupid stupid stupid" proves it's impossible for there not to be latency.

 

[Pojo]

There's got to be some kind of crazy weird Xbox-only owner overlap going on here: that's the only explanation I can think of with all this controller lag bitching.

FPS games have followed a pretty tight template since Halo, and Killzone doesn't follow it. People are trying to define what's different about Killzone 2 and that's how we get this lag and latency stuff.

It's like when a developer takes auto-aim out of a game and it makes you go "wut" when you actually have to line up a shot. Everyone in Killzone has the same "disadvantage", so I'd imagine you'll get better in multiplayer when everyone else is learning how to string together headshots. Nothing left to cry about, I guess.

 

[H_Prestige]

I don't get all the crying about the controls. The button scheme doesn't seem too radically different from other FPS and the weightiness feels so good.

Now RE5 on the other hand....that's a complicated control scheme.

 

[Private Hoffman]

Look, mr brick wall, I just got done reasoning logically with you about how the flick test you call "stupid stupid stupid" proves it's impossible for there not to be latency.

What you're seeing as 'latency' is the result of 'momentum'.

That is all.

 

[rexor0717]

That's why he answered "Yes? Please, continue."

(but the correct quote is "Yes? Please go on.")

Yea, a couple posts back I was debating whether or not to ask if his reply was a quote from the movie. Decided not to since it would ruin the joke. lol

 

[cakefoo]

What you're seeing as 'latency' is the result of 'momentum'.

That is all.

I disagree. The only momentum that they applied to the thumbstick input is look speed acceleration, which is designed to start turning as soon as you press a direction, and speed up a little after half a second to reach full turning speed.

I'll continue to debate this until an actual GG dev says my findings with the flick test are an intentional effect to simulate bad nerve reflexes- nerve reflexes that have already traveled from my brain to my thumb, mind you.

 

[MoonsaultSlayer]

Switch RGB full off, or too limited. If you have RGB full range on, you can get black crush on some tv's.

My was fine at first but saw this mentioned earlier so I said "what the hell". Switched to limited and played and it was washed out. Guess my tv is safe with Full. I should probably recommend this to my brother since he hasa Vizio and it always seems to have black crush.

 

[urk]

There's got to be some kind of crazy weird Xbox-only owner overlap going on here: that's the only explanation I can think of with all this controller lag bitching.

People who don't own PS3's are playing Killzone 2?

More likely the feel of the controls are a change from most shooters and they take a bit of getting used to. The demo is pretty short, and by the time it ends, I didn't feel too familiar with everything. I started to feel really acclimated at around the third play through.

It's about like moving from something like Burnout to Gran Turismo. Both great racing games with completely different control feels.

 

[ypo]

:lol Oh my those videos are so fucking stupid. The game is not designed for that kind of *gameplay* Just for laughs I tried the same *test* with COD4, especially the machine guns and oh boy does that game also have huge lag. teh lol lol lol

 

[Dirtbag]

There is PLENTY to differentiate Killzone 2 from the feel of other FPS's. SO much more immersive than other shooters- you crouch, and your gun softly rocks up and down. You reload, and your head tilts. You jump, and you feel like a camera's attached to someone's head. It puts Mirror's Edge to FUCKING SHAME. But it doesn't need the learning curve with the controls. And I don't need the learning curve to extend the lifetime of the game's appeal. Heck, I've put in 50 hours of left 4 dead on PC in the last 2 weeks, and I pretty much mastered mouse keyboard about 6 years ago.

well for what it's worth, I agree with you the whole way.
what happens remains to be seen... i'll be the first one to admit it if I have some sort of miracle epiphany like everyone on here claims to have had, but I do think that my own take-away is presently 'flawed masterpiece' in a really crucial and unfortunate area (controls). I just don't think that having something feel unresponsive will ever be an acceptable side-effect of realism for me... unless its simulating a drunken, nervous, or drug induced state. Looking forward to launch now more then ever, reception of the MP will be interesting.

 

[Private Hoffman]

I disagree. The only momentum that they applied to the thumbstick input is look speed acceleration, which is designed to start turning as soon as you press a direction, and speed up a little after half a second to reach full turning speed.

When you flick the stick really fast, it will register as a very abrupt input, and it will use that acceleration and take a while to slow down once you stop moving it.

When you say 'latency' it sounds like a bug, but it's just the physics of how the controls work.

 

[SolidSnakex]

Sony wants this game to sell. Throwing a tantrum won't help,they should make the controls better for the mainstream,no? This could be like the next Halo or Golden Eye, in that those games sold a ton of systems,they were automatic system sellers. Sony has a great game here,bettering the controls would make it more than likely a more accessible game for first timers. I'm ok with the control but I do wish they would tweak it abit more overall myself. It'll make a great game just that much better.

I wouldn't be throwing a tantrum. I haven't bought a FPS since GE. And that's largely because they're short and I don't like the multiplayer modes. If GG changes the controls in an effort to cater to the CoD crowd, then it'd just fall in that category with nearly every other FPS for me. Something i'd rent to complete the single player and then return it. And they wouldn't be making the controls better, they'd just be toning them down.

This whole debate reminds me of the old 3D fighter debates between Tekken and VF fans where there'd be arguments about how one should play like the other even though there was clearly a market for both.

 

[Byakuya769]

I think a lot of complaints are coming from the type of people who played Halo:CE with one stick controlling all movement...

 

[GrandTheftAero]

What happened to practice, adaptation and adjusting?

hear! hear!

 

[MoonsaultSlayer]

I prefer holding it too but I don't see any problem with making toggle crouch an option, that way everybody gets what they want, right?

Oh snap, I'm open-minded and I have a killzown'd avatar, call the press!

lol, I'm not the type who'd call you out or start checking your post history so that latter comment wasn't necessary.

Yeah, an option would have sufficed, but maybe GG has a specific way they want people to play the game.

 

[tigeroreilly]

The controls are the best I have ever experienced in a FPS to date, I fucking hate the floaty weightless feel of other games. if people don't like it, there are other games out there to play instead of bitching like little girls.

hahahah. great game, the controls work just fine, but best ever controls. wow.

 

[UntoldDreams]

Let it go guys...

If you don't like the controls then go ahead and voice your opinion on Killzone.com and be done with it.

1) You aren't going to be able to convince someone who LIKES the Killzone 2 gameplay that there is something wrong because... they enjoy it. There's nothing wrong when you enjoy it.

2) Oppositely... Someone who dislikes the controls cannot be told that they actually should be liking it because its a conscious design mechanic. It doesn't matter to them. Dislike is dislike.

SOOOOOOO.... Just let it go.

 

[UntoldDreams]

For the record...

I love the gameplay and the control mechanics. I love the speed of it and the feel.

 

[ashism]

Some random questions that I wouldnt be surprised if nobody had the answers.

1. Can you make MP games with no crosshairs, just iron sights?

2. I know tacticians can throw a spawn point down. Did I hear correctly that squad leaders can be spawned on too? So does this mean we can have potentially more than one spawn point in a squad?

hey what do you know, my post isn't attacking anyones opinion or rampant with fanboyism for either side.

 

[WretchedTruman]

I turned the voices and sound effect down low, and the game played very interestingly that way

hmm, i'll have to try that.

 

[Fair Witness]

If you pre-ordered through Amazon, you can change shipping to "Release-Date Delivery" for free is you have Prime. Just did it a while ago. If you havent, do it now!

Thanks for posting this, I updated my order!

 

[methane47]

My brother just came over the my house and tried the game out.. He's a semi casual/hardcore gamer who doesn't really have time for games any more because of work and family.. So he hasn't really seen anything about the game...

He started it and his response was and I quote, "Holy Crap.. Sssnice!". Me and his fiance were standing behind him and we were like "snice?" he was like... "sssshhhh, let me concentrate"

 

[The Chef]

Got home from work and had a chance to play it for the second time.

No Hud or Hints is the way to go. Such a cinematic experience.

Finally got my 5.1 headphones to work. OMG this game sounds incredible.

And god damn man these controls feel GOOD. I upped the sensitivity and, geez it just feels right.
Im thrilled so many people hate the controls - it will make multiplayer with them hella fun.

 

[SSM25]

hahahah. great game, the controls work just fine, but best ever controls. wow.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, for me this game feels like no other I have ever played, but keep in mind that I don't give a shit for PC shooters and KB mouse setups, I'm a console gamer.

 

[Esperado]

I get latency. Think about this: It ignores anything brief like a flick because a flick isn't long enough. A flick lasts about 30-50 milliseconds or so, and if it ignores 30-50 milliseconds of input ENTIRELY, then the only way it's going to REGISTER your input is if you've been pressing in excess of 30-50 milliseconds. And the only way it's going to be able to decide if you've been pressing for 30-50 milliseconds is if it waits that long to start moving. If it waits that long to start moving, it's latency.

This definitely isn't latency. The way input is handled, it would be impossible for the movements to go unregistered without other games being affected as well. It would have to be a hardware problem related either to the Dual Shock 3 or PS3. Input latency would be pushing the stick and having the movements appear 30-50 milliseconds later. Think of the software as an observer, watching which button/analog stick presses the hardware registers from the input. The way control works is the hardware registers the movement, the software reads (or observes) this information and executes code based on which buttons/analog movements are being pushed, and you are given output on the screen. What is happening here is the movement is registered with the hardware, but the code has either a momentum based system like others have thought of or some kind of a time based dead zone. Otherwise it would just be a 30-50ms delay in the movement and not the absence of movement as a whole.

 

[Rapping Granny]

 

[MoonsaultSlayer]

I guess I should mention that when hearing of this "flick test" I decided to try it myself in the game and guess what? Each flick caused my gun to "flick" in the direction I pressed..... uh oh... who needs their tv calibrated/upgraded? EDIT: or a new controller...

 

[Guled]

anyway I just wanted to say how awesome the demo was. I already knew that the MP was awesome but with the demo the SP looks to be just as great if not better. I don't think another FPS has captured the feeling of being in a battlefield better then KZ. Even tho the demo was really short, I played it over 5 times totally putting my worries of re playability to rest. 3 weeks now, can't wait. Also, I still don't get why people have problems with the controls, its perfect for me

Spoiler

except for running and turning but thats a small issue

. I really think its because the weighting on the guns, you feel like you are controlling the hands instead of the camera, which is great. Still the demo was to short, apart from that the only thing I have a problem with is how ugly the menus are, it was a lot better in the beta, why did they change it Anyway thats my 2 cents

Spoiler

also, going around and killing the helgast with a knife feels so awesome

 

[Stinkles]

hahahah. great game, the controls work just fine, but best ever controls. wow.

Stop "bitching like little girls."

 

[The Chef]

http://92.48.84.213/~vetromed/images/playstation_3/killzone_2/multi-player/killzone%202%20-online4-1.jpg[IMG]
[/QUOTE]

I want to play online NOW!!!

And holy crap I never saw that boss fight video in the beginning of the demo. :O

 

[G-Bus]

I guess I should mention that when hearing of this "flick test" I decided to try it myself in the game and guess what? Each flick caused my gun to "flick" in the direction I pressed..... uh oh... who needs their tv calibrated/upgraded? EDIT: or a new controller...

Your not flicking it fast enough! don't you know how to play FPS games!?!?!

 

[cakefoo]

When you flick the stick really fast, it will register as a very abrupt input, and it will use that acceleration and take a while to slow down once you stop moving it.

When you say 'latency' it sounds like a bug, but it's just the physics of how the controls work.

Maybe you've got the wrong idea entirely about what I'm talking about, because at no time have I complained about or attempted to analyze the stopping effect. I'm only referring to the startup- the "get-the-ball-rolling" input. And if you flick fast enough, the ball doesn't move a nanometer. I would understand if it moved at a snail's pace for those first 30-50ms, but it doesn't move at all.

What I find sickening is that people are bashing those who complain about controls- Pixeljunk Eden's an example of a game where I caught on but others didn't- and I feel bad because I was unable to put myself in the shoes of someone who disliked the controls, and I bashed them for being a troll, etc.

 

[Kagari]

Is there a list of stores doing a midnight for this?

 

[MoonsaultSlayer]

Your not flicking it fast enough! don't you know how to play FPS games!?!?!

Shit! Sorry. I will not buy this game then. I'm not playing it right. Thanks for the heads up.

 

[Dirtbag]

This definitely isn't latency. The way input is handled, it would be impossible for the movements to go unregistered without other games being affected as well. It would have to be a hardware problem related either to the Dual Shock 3 or PS3. Input latency would be pushing the stick and having the movements appear 30-50 milliseconds later. Think of the software as an observer, watching which button/analog stick presses the hardware registers from the input. The way control works is the hardware registers the movement, the software reads (or observes) this information and executes code based on which buttons/analog movements are being pushed, and you are given output on the screen. What is happening here is the movement is registered with the hardware, but the code has either a momentum based system like others have thought of or some kind of a time based dead zone. Otherwise it would just be a 30-50ms delay in the movement and not the absence of movement as a whole.

You can tell its programmed because the gun fires immediately upon push with no delay. The latency is only affecting certain areas of the gameplay independent of others, it's either a bug or a conscious decision that is having some fallout now that the game is getting into more hands (particularly those who didn't expect the game to be 'game of the forever' before they played it, and as such look at the game with a very critical eye).