KILLZONE 2 - input lag now? if you want a reskinned COD4, go play WaW
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MvmntInGrn
Member
itxaka said:
I can understand people complaining too.
But I cannot understand why it is so hard to adapt to another type of system.Do they also only play either God of War OR Ninja Gaiden, so their skill in one doesn't get rusty?
Do they decide to play Dragon Quest but not Final Fantasy, because memorizing and perfecting every aspect in one is more important?
Do they decide to play Ratchet but not LittleBigPlanet so they can concentrate on perfecting only one of them?
Sounds like these people no longer enjoy one of the most satisfying elements of gaming, diversity. Sadly more and more games are dismissing it and going for the copy-paste mechanic mentality. From a technical perspective KZ2 had a lot of hype, GG could have pushed it out with COD4 controls and it would have done very well. Prettiest COD4 clone. Thankfully they decided to create something different.
So yeah, I think it is awesome to have games that feel different. If I wanted to play a game with X feel, I go play that game. Not moan and groan because the developers decided to go somewhere different with it.
RubxQub said:
Totally feel that it isn't working for you - your frustration is obvious.
But, logically, either there is a hardware problem, or the problem is perception. If it's a hardware problem that affects some of you poor bastards and is driving you crazy - then it WILL get found and fixed.
If it's a problem of perception then either it's broken and a huge number of people are perceiving it as working, or it's working and a significant number of people are perceiving it as broken.
Paging Doctor Occam for a consult tells me that the simplest explanation is the latter not the former.
Byakuya769
Member
CHRP718 said:
Would you lead them?
I disagree with the complaints ppl have with the aiming, but they have a right to air it out. (though they're wrong
)MvmntInGrn
Member
Byakuya769 said:Would you lead them?
I disagree with the complaints ppl have with the aiming, but they have a right to air it out. (though they're wrong
Sure they do, but do they have to say it over and over again over countless pages.
We heard you the first time, we disagree. You are in the minority. The game isn't changing. Case Closed.
Bye.
Keylime
ÏÎ¯Î»Ï á¼Î¾ÎµÏÎγλοÏÏον καί ÏεÏδολÏγον οá½Îº εἰÏÏν
If anyone has decided to read my last 50 posts in this thread, you'd see that I'm not complaining about the "feel" of anything.
I'm talking about how there is input delay.
That's it. That's my gripe.
It's clear to me that everyone accepts that input delay as a device to create this "realistic weight" to the gunplay (despite the fact that it's present when you have out a pistol or a knife).
What's not clear to me why everyone is fine with input delay? How is that OK in any game, anywhere?
When I press the shoot button, should it not immediately fire? When you press the jump button, should it not immediately jump? (examples, not observations in this game)
All I'm saying is that when press a direction on the right analog, I want the guy to immediately take some action. That's it. I understand that he accelerates into his turns. What I don't understand is why he doesn't immediately start that acceleration the moment you hit the analog towards a direction.
I'm talking about how there is input delay.
That's it. That's my gripe.
It's clear to me that everyone accepts that input delay as a device to create this "realistic weight" to the gunplay (despite the fact that it's present when you have out a pistol or a knife).
What's not clear to me why everyone is fine with input delay? How is that OK in any game, anywhere?
When I press the shoot button, should it not immediately fire? When you press the jump button, should it not immediately jump? (examples, not observations in this game)
All I'm saying is that when press a direction on the right analog, I want the guy to immediately take some action. That's it. I understand that he accelerates into his turns. What I don't understand is why he doesn't immediately start that acceleration the moment you hit the analog towards a direction.
MvmntInGrn said:I can understand people complaining too.
Do they also only play either God of War OR Ninja Gaiden, so their skill in one doesn't get rusty?
Do they decide to play Dragon Quest but not Final Fantasy, because memorizing and perfecting every aspect in one is more important?
Do they decide to play Ratchet but not LittleBigPlanet so they can concentrate on perfecting only one of them?
Sounds like these people no longer enjoy one of the most satisfying elements of gaming, diversity. Sadly more and more games are dismissing it and going for the copy-paste mechanic mentality. From a technical perspective KZ2 had a lot of hype, GG could have pushed it out with COD4 controls and it would have done very well. Prettiest COD4 clone. Thankfully they decided to create something different.
So yeah, I think it is awesome to have games that feel different. If I wanted to play a game with X feel, I go play that game. Not moan and groan because the developers decided to go somewhere different with it.
Hey, I got problems when changing RPG's! I can't seem to remember between Blue Dragon and IU so I have lot's of problems to remember everything after doing a loong play between them.
That is why I think some people can have problems, because I do
Everyone is talking and discussing normally. Maybe you should STFU and GTFO with your post that contributes nothing but more useless discussion? Are you looking to stir shit up or something?
Lord Error
Insane For Sony
Even in that video you posted, when he ups the sensitivity a bit, and starts moving stick sometime after 2:05 mark, you can see that the acceleration happens at about the same moment he pulls sticks. And that's slowed down 4x, on a TV that has obvious lag even during XMB...RubxQub said:
lowrider007
Licorice-flavoured booze?
RubxQub said:
There is no lag, (or delay), or deadzone issues for that matter, I thought the same at first, it's just that the acceleration arc starts of very slowly, slowing it down to 25% makes it almost impossible to detect, in-game it's alot more easy to see it moving straight away (but albiet very slowly at first), it just takes longer to reach full speed than in other games, this is what is giving the game it's weighted feeling, you thrash the sticks around and it's obviously going to take a few milliseconds to reach it's full speed, seriously dude I was moaning my ass of about the controls but with practise they started to feel alright, here,
MvmntInGrn
Member
itxaka said:Hey, I got problems when changing RPG's! I can't seem to remember between Blue Dragon and IU so I have lot's of problems to remember everything after doing a loong play between them.
That is why I think some people can have problems, because I do
Everyone is talking and discussing normally. Maybe you should STFU and GTFO with your post that contributes nothing but more useless discussion? Are you looking to stir shit up or something?
But did that stop you from playing them?
Keylime
ÏÎ¯Î»Ï á¼Î¾ÎµÏÎγλοÏÏον καί ÏεÏδολÏγον οá½Îº εἰÏÏν
His XMB doesn't seem to display anything out of the ordinary, however I completely concede that when he is in the KZ2 menu system and hitting directions at 1/4 speed there is delay there as well. I don't recall if I saw that in my menus or not.Lord Error said:
But it can't be my own TV, as I don't have this problem on any of my other PS3 games to date.
Also when he ups his sens at 2:05 he begins to shift move instead of slam to a direction. It makes it much harder to judge what's going on, whereas in the previous slamming motions it's as clear as day.
Again, this can't be my TV, as I don't see this on any of my other PS3 games.
Keylime
ÏÎ¯Î»Ï á¼Î¾ÎµÏÎγλοÏÏον καί ÏεÏδολÏγον οá½Îº εἰÏÏν
Seeing thing slowed down to 1/4 speed should make any acceleration immediately obvious, much more so than regular speed, so I don't quite follow the "almost impossible to detect" statement.lowrider007 said:
When he slams the stick I'm looking for anything on the screen to immediately change to reflect that an input was received and the game is doing something with my input. What you get in that video (and in my experience) is no reaction at all for a beat and then the acceleration begins.
Private Hoffman
Banned
RubxQub said:
There is no lag.
Instead of 'slamming the stick', aka the flick test, try making a fine, small movement. It will be instantly noticeable.
lowrider007
Licorice-flavoured booze?
RubxQub said:
No, your WRONG, if something is already moving very slowly then if you slow that down even further it'll look like it's standing still.
Always-honest
Banned
in that video, yes. you are right. there is a dead momentRubxQub said:
Keylime
ÏÎ¯Î»Ï á¼Î¾ÎµÏÎγλοÏÏον καί ÏεÏδολÏγον οá½Îº εἰÏÏν
I'll give this a try in a bit, but I don't understand why slamming a direction would not yield an immediate result yet slowly executing the same command does.Private Hoffman said:
I kind of see what you're saying, but you should see something happening upon the input being receieved, even at 25%.lowrider007 said:
I will try again and see if I can produce any better results.
I think I'm finally used to the controls. 
As people mentioned, the lag is perceived. Its a design choice. Of course the result is a more sluggish feeling game. Their AI is designed around it, so its probably not game breaking. But it takes some getting used to for sure. That lagged slow jump still is bugging me, but I see why its done
It's obviously a design choice allowed them to make for more interesting AI. With tighter controls, headshots from long distances while on the run would be a cinch. This control scheme instead encourages you to be stationary to shoot accurately, which in turn makes the cover system more useful. It also encourages you to get close to the enemy before wasting ammo, since its harder to aim at smaller targets without Halo/CoD style aim assist. Laggy jump means you probably wont be jumping while shooting too much.
Forcing you to play this way allows the player to see the AI do more things before instantly getting shot dead by a headshot a mile away. And of course, you can STILL make those headshots. But your percentage chance is lowered not by Fallout style dice rolls, but because of the control scheme.
I dont think this is the wave of the future for FPS. People will want that tight control found in the competition. But it does make this game play differently. After multiple demo playthroughs, I personally think they could have made the controls a bit more responsive without sacrificing much, but its hard to make final judgement playing only a demo
As people mentioned, the lag is perceived. Its a design choice. Of course the result is a more sluggish feeling game. Their AI is designed around it, so its probably not game breaking. But it takes some getting used to for sure. That lagged slow jump still is bugging me, but I see why its done
It's obviously a design choice allowed them to make for more interesting AI. With tighter controls, headshots from long distances while on the run would be a cinch. This control scheme instead encourages you to be stationary to shoot accurately, which in turn makes the cover system more useful. It also encourages you to get close to the enemy before wasting ammo, since its harder to aim at smaller targets without Halo/CoD style aim assist. Laggy jump means you probably wont be jumping while shooting too much.
Forcing you to play this way allows the player to see the AI do more things before instantly getting shot dead by a headshot a mile away. And of course, you can STILL make those headshots. But your percentage chance is lowered not by Fallout style dice rolls, but because of the control scheme.
I dont think this is the wave of the future for FPS. People will want that tight control found in the competition. But it does make this game play differently. After multiple demo playthroughs, I personally think they could have made the controls a bit more responsive without sacrificing much, but its hard to make final judgement playing only a demo
Private Hoffman
Banned
RubxQub said:
Because when you slam the stick that's suggesting a hard movement.
Since KZ2 introduces momentum into the controls, it will take a bit of time to get up to full speed. This is the result of building up your momentum. What looks like lag, really isn't lag. The fine movement just appears imperceptible compared to the fast movement once that momentum does finally catch up. That's why when you let off the stick, the gun will still move a bit.
Sorry if that's a bit confusing.
Always-honest
Banned
okay, gonna check this.....:S
Iain Howe: Welcome to Calgary! Make your way to Nectar Desserts as soon as humanly possible. Trust me on this.
And regarding the controls, is the input lag really that noticeable? I don't doubt that it exists, but is the rapid joystick flick really a technique commonly used when playing any console FPS?
And regarding the controls, is the input lag really that noticeable? I don't doubt that it exists, but is the rapid joystick flick really a technique commonly used when playing any console FPS?
lowrider007
Licorice-flavoured booze?
Future said:
Yep the jump bugged me too at first also but then I noticed as soon as you press the jump button sev bends his knees to make the jump, it is actually quite responsive, notice when you hit 'x' he dips straight away bending for the jump, in most other game you jump without bending your knees which to be honest is a bit silly, you try jumping like that in real life.
After reading some of the comments in this thread about the controls I can see where theyre coming from. Killzone 2 definitley has a style of its own, and it was really frustrating me at first. However, once you give the demo a couple run throughs I can't see how one wouldnt get used to them. After playing it a couple of times Im simply in love with the controls and actually turned down my sensitivity to the default level. For anyone hating the controls, I suggest you just play the demo a couple more times with an open mind.
Riptwo said:
Its very noticeable. Naturally if you want to spin around quickly, you are gonna flick the stick hard. So its easy to tell that movement isnt instant. When you want to stop the movement and aim at something, its also easy to tell the reticule doesnt stop instantly. Its pretty much as un PC like as it can possibily get, as your movement isnt 1 to 1 with your controls. There is clear acceleration and deceleration, which feels like lag to some people
Yeah, I know its cuz of the animation. But 90% of all games (not just FPS) have an instant jump, cuz lag makes things feel unresponsive. Imagine playing a Mario game, walking towards a ledge, and having to time your jump so he had enough time to bend his knees before clearing the pit....it'd be impossible! And in Killzone, it feels like quick taps to the jump button sometimes dont even register. Its not terrible, since the only time you really need to jump is to clear obstacles, not to avoid gunfire, jump over pits, or jump while shooting like Halo or other FPS.
Private Hoffman
Banned
Future said:
Then again, mario offers momentum unlike other platformers of the time, and it's one of the reasons why many people love mario's control.
Doesn't feel as sterile, and taking into account the momentum, and shifts of momentum, is more fun and immersive.
That's one of the reasons I love KZ2's controls, to be honest. Games like R2 and L4D don't feel nearly as good to me.
lowrider007
Licorice-flavoured booze?
RubxQub said:
WHAT ?!?!?!?
And your right, no it doesn't help your case at all.
Like I said before I've been playing this demo constantly, if you are struggling with the controls but really do want to enjoy the game then for some people like us we just have to put in more practise, I know brain is a stickler for change, once I get used to something that's it and I was very used R2's controls, the strange thing I know I'll eventually feel the same with this games control scheme, once I get really used to it going back to twitch shooters like R2 and COD4 will feel strange, even after my session on the KZ2 demo yesterday it felt weird playing COD4.
Always-honest
Banned
well, the sensitivity seems to take care of a lot of this delay. it's choice of momentum. But i can see how th accelaratrion seems off to some.
personally i'm having some problems with really small movements.. like lining up that headshot
personally i'm having some problems with really small movements.. like lining up that headshot
navii
My fantasy is that my girlfriend was actually a young high school girl.
I had to turn up the sensitivity on the controls settings as much as possible as I felt the movement too slow and even at max its a bit slow. Ill probably get used to it, but just saying as Ive never had to do this in a game before.
Keylime
ÏÎ¯Î»Ï á¼Î¾ÎµÏÎγλοÏÏον καί ÏεÏδολÏγον οá½Îº εἰÏÏν
Ok so I pegged the problem I'm having.
There is a very sizable dead zone on the analogs for this game. You need to move the stick a decent amount before your guy will even start to hardly move at all.
This dead zone along side of the accelerated aiming system in place makes the dead zone appear to be even bigger than it really is.
So the bottom line is that the dead zone on the controller analogs is the problem, hence my problem for tiny fluctuations in aiming.
I play my shooters with the sens as high as I can handle, and this game is just not built to work that way. I'm used to using little taps to adjust my aim to line up those headshots, but that method is just not going to translate to this game.
So there it is. The controller dead zone made everything appear terrible.
Is this analog dead zone specific to this game or all PS3 games? I don't recall noticing this really at all in Resistance, however that may be because that game doesn't employ the same acceleration type aiming.
There is a very sizable dead zone on the analogs for this game. You need to move the stick a decent amount before your guy will even start to hardly move at all.
This dead zone along side of the accelerated aiming system in place makes the dead zone appear to be even bigger than it really is.
So the bottom line is that the dead zone on the controller analogs is the problem, hence my problem for tiny fluctuations in aiming.
I play my shooters with the sens as high as I can handle, and this game is just not built to work that way. I'm used to using little taps to adjust my aim to line up those headshots, but that method is just not going to translate to this game.
So there it is. The controller dead zone made everything appear terrible.
Is this analog dead zone specific to this game or all PS3 games? I don't recall noticing this really at all in Resistance, however that may be because that game doesn't employ the same acceleration type aiming.
Private Hoffman said:
Mario offers momentum, but not at the expensive of responsiveness. When you move the pad, mario moves. When you tap jump, mario jumps. Its one of the most responsive games out there. Killzone's laggy jump and slow acceleration to the reticule is not a good comparision. Mario accelerates at a good pace which still feels responsive. And your main method of attack and survival: jumping, happens instantly
Now when you move in one direction, then quickly move the opposite...mario doesnt instantly shift (if he did the game would be tough to play). That is comparable to the Killzone reticules deceleration after moving, and not so bad. But what people I think are taking issue with is the slow acceleration, as it makes the controls feel unresponsive and laggy. And since aiming and shooting is your main method of survival, this lagginess throws people off
So increasing sensitivity is the first thing that people will do to account for this (hence, why the developer recommended NOT to do it, heh). But then they feel increased deceleration since the reticule is moving so fast, making them overshoot targets. The question is will most people find the middleground, like I guess you did. I'm used to it now, but this funky design is gonna be a minor issue for sure
I don't understand how people aren't getting used to the controls. Yes, when you start off, it definitely takes adaptation since it has different feel to other console shooters. But damn, people, you do eventually get acclimated. I don't understand how some of you would ever even manage when it comes to playing PC games, where every shooter that comes out has different sensitivity settings.
Still, the demo just came out a few days ago, so we're hearing a lot of people's immediate reactions. I predict in about two weeks or so, complaints about the controls will be minimal relative to now.
Slow and steady is the key. After having played the demo for a while, you realize why GG made the controls the way they are, specifically the aiming. You can barely budge the gun just by slightly touching the right stick, while the accel allows you to spin faster than you normally would at that sens by edging the stick further. It's the perfect solution for console shooters. This shit feels much better to me than Halo 3 and Resistance.
Still, the demo just came out a few days ago, so we're hearing a lot of people's immediate reactions. I predict in about two weeks or so, complaints about the controls will be minimal relative to now.
Always-honest said:
Slow and steady is the key. After having played the demo for a while, you realize why GG made the controls the way they are, specifically the aiming. You can barely budge the gun just by slightly touching the right stick, while the accel allows you to spin faster than you normally would at that sens by edging the stick further. It's the perfect solution for console shooters. This shit feels much better to me than Halo 3 and Resistance.
Always-honest said:
If there was only one area I could have improved, it would be this one. I think I could get used to the momentum in the movements / turning, and maybe even eventually like it, but scoped in is where I'm finding myself most frustrated. I think I'm actually better off when I don't iron-sight.
Try using the strafe to line up shots instead of turning the head, its kind of backwards but I had better success this way (of course this doesn't help you at all in cover).
lowrider007
Licorice-flavoured booze?
Future said:
There is no laggy jump, did you not read my post in response to you saying this the first time around ?
It's all physics.RubxQub said:
Flicking or twitching the sticks: you have a mass (the rifle, Ak47=3-4kg for reference) and a force to accelerate it (muscle power). If you try to build momentum too quickly then the law of inertia will absorb the force, there will be no or little immediate movement.
Finer stick movement: applying force slowly but more steadily will build acceleration and finer/immediate movement is possible.
Always-honest
Banned
Awntawn said:
yeah, i know. but these are the movements that need to happen fast as well as subtile. that's not that easy with these controls. but i will be fine.. it's faaaaaaar from a dealbreaker..
for me it's an almost perfect marriage between CoD4 and Rainbow 6 with a lot of extra juice
Keylime
ÏÎ¯Î»Ï á¼Î¾ÎµÏÎγλοÏÏον καί ÏεÏδολÏγον οá½Îº εἰÏÏν
So I just popped in Resistance to see why the hell I didn't feel these dead zones so harshly before, and it's exactly as I expected. Since the game doesn't accelerate into aiming like KZ2 does, you can use your reaction speed to make quick adjustments once you are moving. KZ is more unforgiving in that respect (and as someone pointed out, the high sensitivity only increases the amount of force you need counteract to make an inverse shift in aim).
So KZ is made to be played at low sensitivities (apparently that guy said this previously, however I didn't see it). That being said, I don't see why the devs even game the option to mess around with sensitivity if it's so terrible at higher sensitivities and breaks from the design they were creating. It led to a terrible playing experience and made me want to never get the game.
...I'm about to try again with low sensitivity and see if that helps any.
So KZ is made to be played at low sensitivities (apparently that guy said this previously, however I didn't see it). That being said, I don't see why the devs even game the option to mess around with sensitivity if it's so terrible at higher sensitivities and breaks from the design they were creating. It led to a terrible playing experience and made me want to never get the game.
...I'm about to try again with low sensitivity and see if that helps any.
For the record, the aiming "heaviness" is applied whether you're holding a knife or a pistol or a rocket launcher, so I don't buy the "heaviness" argument until it dynamically changes with what I'm holding.ChryZ said:
lowrider007 said:
I think this confusion is why people are still debating all this after 20+ pages.
When I press jump, I expect to jump. Instead, when I press jump my knees bend and I jump a second later.
When I ram the analogue to aim left, I expect my cursor to turn left. Instead, the cursor barely moves at all and then moves left at the speed i expected some time later.
This isnt lag in the sense that the game isnt registering controls or that there is something wrong with my TV. But it is STILL lag since the expected action happens some time later after performing the action. It's control lag that is designed into the game, but still lag nevertheless. And it throws people off for the reasons mentioned in my other posts.
Tomb Raider would be a good example as a laggy Mario platformer. Like Killzone, the lag is a design choice in how fast she moves, conveying momentum, etc. And its easy to defend that design, because of course you can get used to it. But does the game play better because of it. In Tomb Raider's case, I'd say no (which is why she has gotten more responsive in the latest games). For Killzone? Cant judge exactly from the demo, but I'd assume that it works just fine from the great reviews its been getting. Its just a design choice thats gonna lead to some bad first impressions right at the start
EDIT: Although, I do still think the Killzone jump doesnt happen when you tap the button quickly all the time, and I'm not sure whats up with that.
D
Deleted member 30609
Unconfirmed Member
DANGER! DO NOT PROCEEDdhelfric said:
dhelfric said:
RE5's tank controls are realistic now how? :lol
Wow this thread went from Halo 3 vs Killzone 2 to Crysis vs Killzone 2 to Resistance 2 vs Killzone 2 to Gears of War 1/2 vs Killzone 2 to Call of Duty 4 vs Killzone 2 and now to Resident Evil 5 vs Killzone 2. :lol :lol
There are sections when you're gonna need to pop up from cover, and in the split second before an MG turret starts firing on you, you're gonna need to navigate your cursor over the Helghast's head and pull the trigger.
RubxQub, I don't think this is the game for you.
RubxQub, I don't think this is the game for you.
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