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[The Fartist]

That's the gist of it, folks. Now that Konami is officially back on the scene; UE5 is just too troublesome/demanding/buggy. Delta would've benefited from an updated modern FOX engine and Konami wouldn't have to have paid EPIC for shit. I know, it was a cost-cutting decision, but with a little, maybe half of what they paid to use UE5, they could've modernized FOX and developed Delta, SH2/F (Castlevania, PLEASE) on their own proprietary shit. Any who, I'm just a little buzzed at work and had a thought. Please discuss.

Fuck waiting for the weekend for these kinds of posts.

 

[Danny Dudekisser]

FOX Engine was amazing and had such a good feel to it. I'd gladly sacrifice some modern visual doo-dads to go back to that tech. I don't even have to think about it.

 

[GudOlRub]

It's probably way too costly to pay a team to evolve the engine enough to catch up with modern tech. I don't know how much work they put into it for the PES games but I doubt it's anywhere near enough for what's needed for games like Silent Hill and Metal Gear.
It's way easier and cheaper to outsource and develop the games with UE5 like they did with SH2 and now SHF.
I do agree with the sentiment though, I adored the Fox Engine and would love to see it brought back and evolved to modern standards.

 

[Lokaum D+]

Every game should use décima, fuck ue5

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

The Fox Engine was hard to use. I wonder if that has something to do with Japanese culture. I think Western devs were involved in the RE Engine development.

 

[diffusionx]

If more than 5 people working at nu-Konami know how to work with and code in FOX Engine I'd be shocked. It's dead man.

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

Every game should use décima, fuck ue5

Well, well, well, the perfect excuse to go full third-party.

 

[The_hunter]

I remember playing MGS5 on a really old computer at the time. Crazy good engine.

 

[Killer8]

It costs a ton of money to update an engine so it's not realistic for them to maintain Fox. The Delta remake in fact looks even better than the Fox powered pachinko game everyone wanted for years. So yes I proudly take it up the butt for UE5 because without it none of these great new Konami games would've even been made to the quality level that they are. Silent Hill and MGS would still be in the grave and yet people aren't content because the games are a bit heavy to run. Boo hoo.

 

[Katajx]

I think that's really hard to say. Game development is in a weird place compared to the generations before. They make new tools and things, but it really has felt like we have been hitting diminishing returns hard. Even with upscaling and AI.

For instance I thought Luminous was fine for 15, but I was over it by time Forspoken came out.

A better example would be Bethesda. They keep updating that engine, but even with the lighting improvements and better animations and things. The gameplay design feels limited and held back by the engine.

I suspect the same thing with Cyberpunk and CD Projekt Red. Yes, the game looked good. For one reason or another outside of talent, I don't think it could handle everything they originally set out for it to do.
Even taking into account feature creep and talent issues.

 

[The Fartist]

I think that's really hard to say. Game development is in a weird place compared to the generations before. They make new tools and things, but it really has felt like we have been hitting diminishing returns hard. Even with upscaling and AI.

For instance I thought Luminous was fine for 15, but I was over it by time Forspoken came out.

A better example would be Bethesda. They keep updating that engine, but even with the lighting improvements and better animations and things. The gameplay design feels limited and held back by the engine.

I suspect the same thing with Cyberpunk and CD Projekt Red. Yes, the game looked good. For one reason or another outside of talent, I don't think it could handle everything they originally set out for it to do.
Even taking into account feature creep and talent issues.

True, but we're dealing with a game (MGS3) that ran on PS2. Stretch it out a bit and we're dealing with SH2 a game that also ran on PS2. Both games haven't evolved much from their origins.

 

[A.Romero]

I mean, from the perspective of the games yeah. Fox Engine was pretty good.

Doesn't make sense for Konami to do it, though.

What they should do is to release it as open source.

 

[Knightime_X]

UE5 isn't the problem.
It's the end user's shit ass weak rig \ console.
I'll admit an issue when later hardware STILL struggles with UE5 tech running today.
I think its funny when they say they have an RTX 5090 struggling when my rx 9070 xt is running the same game just fine.
Makes me think they don't even have a 5090.

 

[Katajx]

I think it's complicated even more seeing how developers try to use their engines for multi purpose projects and you get some varying results.

I think RE Engine works great for Resident Evil, but it was less than stellar for Monster Hunter, Street Fighter, and Dragons Dogma.

 

[deriks]

Every game should use décima, fuck ue5

If every game uses one engine, it would be the actual UE5 situation. For sure Decima doesn't need that much of hardware, but art style also speaks loud

I mean, fucking Ninja Gaiden 2 was a gorgeous colorful and wild game, and with the remake... Boring as hell

 

[Danny Dudekisser]

If every game uses one engine, it would be the actual UE5 situation. For sure Decima doesn't need that much of hardware, but art style also speaks loud

I mean, fucking Ninja Gaiden 2 was a gorgeous colorful and wild game, and with the remake... Boring as hell

Oh, God. Yeah, the NG2 remake just killed the original game's style. Like, I get that with UE, you can more or less make anything you want, but you're going to rely on the shortcuts and the more bespoke aspects of the engine; and in practice the end result tends to lack the flair you'd find in something on a bespoke engine.

Just kind of deflating, man.

 

[Lokaum D+]

If every game uses one engine, it would be the actual UE5 situation. For sure Decima doesn't need that much of hardware, but art style also speaks loud

I mean, fucking Ninja Gaiden 2 was a gorgeous colorful and wild game, and with the remake... Boring as hell

But every remake is like that, every remake has the gatekeepers that ll hate no matter what, If god itself remade NG2 ppl would still complain about It.

 

[Danny Dudekisser]

But every remake is like that, every remake has the gatekeepers that ll hate no matter what, If god itself remade NG2 ppl would still complain about It.

No, people are right to have expectations. If you're going to give me the same game again, you need to capture that same spirit and make what I already had better. Nobody should tolerate a remake that's a mere lateral move or that loses the original game's flair. The developers already have a winning blueprint - improving on it is literally the least they could do.

NG2's remake wasn't a bad game, but it missed the mark.

 

[Denorion]

Since people already talked about the cost/expertise needed to modernize the fox engine, there is another issue,

They don't want to waste six months training every new dev they hire, it's more efficient to use the engine everyone uses

 

[kevboard]

remember 9 years ago, when Konami remade multiple MGS3 cutscenes in Fox Engine just to only use them in their damn Pachinko machines?

 

[analog_future]

Why would I want FOX Engine when MGS looks like freaking this:

 

[kevboard]

Why would I want FOX Engine when MGS looks like freaking this:

because Fox Engine runs well and looks good in motion... which can not be said about MGS Delta or UE5 in general

 

[Lokaum D+]

No, people are right to have expectations. If you're going to give me the same game again, you need to capture that same spirit and make what I already had better. Nobody should tolerate a remake that's a mere lateral move or that loses the original game's flair. The developers already have a winning blueprint - improving on it is literally the least they could do.

NG2's remake wasn't a bad game, but it missed the mark.

They ll never capture the same spirit, you already played that game, you have found memories, no remake ll ever capture the same "essense" of the og game for the ppl that played years ago.

If you are a gatekeeper remakes arent for you, remakes are for those who never played the game before, new fans, It took time for me to understand that but FF7Re made me.

 

[analog_future]

because Fox Engine runs well and looks good in motion... which can not be said about MGS Delta or UE5 in general

UE5 runs fine with the right hardware and the right optimization. And it blows every other engine out of the water as far as visuals are concerned.

 

[kevboard]

But every remake is like that, every remake has the gatekeepers that ll hate no matter what, If god itself remade NG2 ppl would still complain about It.

Ninja Gaiden 2 Black looks like shit in motion and runs like shit on anything that isn't a high end PC.

 

[Lokaum D+]

Ninja Gaiden 2 Black looks like shit in motion and runs like shit on anything that isn't a high end PC.

Ok, play the OG game, no one is making you play the remake.

 

[kevboard]

UE5 runs fine with the right hardware and the right optimization. And it blows every other engine out of the water as far as visuals are concerned.

oh, it blows alright...

UE5 is the worst fucking engine on the market. everything using it looks like an unstable buggy shitshow, unless they ignore all of its features and don't use Lumen or Nanite... at which point you just have UE4 with a new name essentially.

 

[kevboard]

Ok, play the OG game, no one is making you play the remake.

it's not even a remake. it's just the original game code slightly modified, running in a UE5 wrapper.
and yes, anyone should play the original over Black. it's not even a question. unless the question is "do you want to play an all around worse version?" and the answer somehow is yes...

 

[phant0m]

Considering MGS V is still the king of third person stealth gameplay I'd say yeah

 

[analog_future]

oh, it blows alright...

UE5 is the worst fucking engine on the market. everything using it looks like an unstable buggy shitshow, unless they ignore all of its features and don't use Lumen or Nanite... at which point you just have UE4 with a new name essentially.

Avowed, Robocop: Rogue City, Fortnite, The Finals, Hellblade II, etc.. etc.. are "unstable buggy shitshows"? Weird, they ran perfectly for me and looked amazing.

 

[March Climber]

No, people are right to have expectations. If you're going to give me the same game again, you need to capture that same spirit and make what I already had better. Nobody should tolerate a remake that's a mere lateral move or that loses the original game's flair. The developers already have a winning blueprint - improving on it is literally the least they could do.

And this is why I think reimaginings like the FF7R games are the better idea 9 times out of 10.

Lokaum D+ is right in that when companies like Virtuous or Bluepoint do a sort of 'graphical update' like this, they are essentially trying to recapture the genie/lightning of nostalgia back into a bottle, and any small changes (even good ones) just upset a hardcore fanbase.

I say 9 times out of 10 because there are rare moments where the original game's design should be kept intact (like Demon's Souls).

I still look forward to Virtuous' Fallout 3 graphical Remaster and eventual Skyrim graphical remaster (hopefully both are using a more updated version of UE), but I already know what the discourse online is going to look like.

 

[Magic Carpet]

Stay with Unreal.

 

[Badlucktroll]

Konami should remake and flesh out Metal Gear and Metal Gear 2: Solid Snake

 

[The Fartist]

So; so far, 20% of you like it up the ass:

 

[FinalBossWithTheMostPower]

 

[violence]

it's too far behind now. The people who really knew the engine probably don't work there anymore.

 

[kevboard]

Avowed,

runs like ass compared to it's fidelity, unstable lumen, I/O stutters

Robocop: Rogue City

runs badly for a game of its scope, lumen is unstable in dim areas (can be somewhat fixed with engine.ini tweaks), doesn't offer hardware lumen.

Fortnite

literally the only good example... BUT, insane shader stutters on PC after every patch or driver update... and by insane, I mean insane. basically unplayable for 3-5 matches at least.
dogshit engine.
but even here, Lumen is unstable and should not be used. thankfully you can basically revert back to the UE4 settings and a DX11 renderer... that doesn't fix the shader stutters but it makes it look not like shit at least.

The Finals

thankfully uses the RTX branch of Unreal Engine, meaning they use RTX GI and not Lumen. (RTX GI is a confusing name btw. it's not raytraced, it's probe based GI) this means the GI actually looks good and not like pure shit (like in every Lumen game)
heavily modified version of Unreal, which is the only way to make the engine run well and look good btw. anyone using the default branch can't make a good looking game essentially.
the moment Lumen is enabled, the game looks like shit. and there are almost no exceptions to this.

No Lumen, no Nanite, separate branch with better lighting... suddenly a game that runs well and looks good... HOW WEIRD...

Hellblade II

interactive movie with zero interactivity outside of walking. barely more than a tech demo essentially. it would have been sad to not have good results at such controlled circumstances. and even then, it was so CPU intensive that they couldn't do a 60fps mode at launch, and had to optimise the game to run at 60fps on console... IN A GAME WHERE BASICALLY NOTHING IS HAPPENING.
such an astonishingly shit engine... it's almost comedic.

etc.. etc.. are "unstable buggy shitshows"? Weird, they ran perfectly for me and looked amazing.

"it runs fine on my PC"
sure man. your magic PC has a way to precompile all of Fortnite's shaders, while noone else's PC can do it. only your magic one.
and your magic PC also makes it so that Lumen doesn't rely to an extreme degree on screen space information, and your magic PC also has its own magic denoiser that magically replaces UE5's shitty denoiser.

 

[Danny Dudekisser]

They ll never capture the same spirit, you already played that game, you have found memories, no remake ll ever capture the same "essense" of the og game for the ppl that played years ago.

If you are a gatekeeper remakes arent for you, remakes are for those who never played the game before, new fans, It took time for me to understand that but FF7Re made me.

I actually think the FF7R and newer REmakes are a really good approach, because they're differentiated and aren't directly comparable. Those games succeed on their own merits.

But for more literal remakes, I absolutely believe it can be done in such a way that fans of the source material will appreciate it. Look at REmake from 2002. Still the gold standard. Or if we veer more into remaster territory, I think efforts like Xenoblade: Definitive Edition and Metroid Prime's recent remaster were resoundingly successful. I really don't believe that fond memories prevent a remake from succeeding for fans of the original. The bar will naturally be higher, but it's not insurmountable and I think it's completely fair to expect developers to meet those expectations. The unfortunate issue is that remakes/remasters typically get the D-squad from whoever's set to work on the project, so you get shoddy remasters that muck with the lighting and atmosphere (pretty much every modern remaster), redo the character models in an unflattering way (Final Fantasy X), or mess with established mechanics (Shadows of the Colossus). I think it is completely fair for people to expect those central attributes of a game's look and feel to remain intact.


Anyway, we've veered pretty far off-topic here, so I digress.

 

[lh032]

the first thing they'll modernize are female characters

 

[Fake]

I do prefer Fox Engine above UE5.

In fact, this Metal Gear remake would run far more better.

 

[Kataploom]

The people that knew how flew with Kojima

 

[The_hunter]

it's too far behind now. The people who really knew the engine probably don't work there anymore.

I believe one of the guys behind FOX engine now works at CYGAMES.