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[wildfire]

A worthwhile read.


These are the portions I felt were very whiny and missed the point.

Misconception: A Good Idea Is All a Game Needs

With the volume of crowdfunded games it’s certainly turned into a problem for both developers and players. A player backs a game based on a slick pitch and expects the game to deliver on the promises of that pitch. Anytime an idea is mentioned during development on a forum, live stream, or Tweet, fans treat those as confirmed features. A developer treats an idea as a starting point and expects things to change during development. This disconnect is what causes trouble. There’s a whole lot of unsexy grind during game development that takes up a lot of time that gets glossed over when developers pitch games. Any added feature has a cost to development time. Things like optimizing, development tools, asset organization, updating middleware, testing and bug fixing can take up a significant portion of development that have zero to do with implementing features that the player is excited about. Things always take longer than you think. There’s no one solution to this problem other than constant communication and not over promise.

Newsflash: You aren't selling an investment pitch to people whose primary motivation is looking to turn a profit. You're selling a pitch to people looking for a vision to being completed.

We are entitled to having high expectations on your sales pitch. So you have to do a really good job convincing us changing directions is still worth our investment.

Misconception: Realistic Graphics Mean a Better Game

The entire supporting argument feels like the person talked about in this section oversimplifies the reasons this misconception exists.

Unlike film which went from rotary to color gaming has seen big shifts in visual presentation.

As a former child of the 80s and 90s it's not hard to understand why better visuals is looked at as better and more technical work involved. There simply wasn't a broad understanding of how much work was involved cramming in information into Ataris, Genesis, etc. devices.

The misconception is further compounded by how publishers and game developers (thinking of the likes of Id and Squaresoft) advertised 3D graphics as the 2nd coming and 2D took zero skill.

Misconception: Players Always Know What’s Best for a Game

This whole section is a misfire. Every other section briefly tries to get at the heart of why this misconceptions exists but here the effort wasn't there.

The most annoying aspect is that many devs clearly disagree with the way this section is structured because certain devs will solicit feedback from fans are just flat out take ideas from fans and implement them. (Personally have been in 2 communities where the latter happened).

I do hope people read the article and take the following sections more to heart if they haven't already.

Misconception: Everything a Developer Does Is for Profit

Misconception: Game Developers Don’t Care About Bugs

Misconception: All Game Developers Are Rich

 

[Aaronrules380]

Exactly. If my car mechanics makes a shitty job I don't say it's okay because your work is hard.
I'm the guy who pays a lot of money for something and then I should feel even bad that I bought shit? I have only empathy for coffee farmers in the third world who are really working like slaves not for people who think that making games is their destiny.

It's not the same at all. This is your car mechanic doing a shitty job because you only gave him a day to do the job, when he himself told you it'd be impossible to do it properly in less than a week. And this isn't exclusive to game developers, it happens in a ton of other industries as well. Sometimes, it's literally impossible to do a proper job with the time and resources you're given, no matter how good you are or how hard you try

 

[PdotMichael]

Maybe when they start getting paid less and work even more hours, then they can be legit slaves? I'm sorry if working unpaid overtime, and sleeping on the office isn't enough subversive behaviour

I would feel even less empathy for dumb people.

Every other industry pays and provides better working conditions for software engineers than the gaming industry. But if you think gaming is your thing... I don't care.

 

[RoboPlato]

I knew much of what they talked about but this part stood out to me

For developers, having something to work on in-between major releases is huge. Yes, that’s partially because DLC is profitable. But! DLC also provides much-needed security in an industry with an abundance of layoff horror stories.

“In the past you would see large layoffs when a game submitted because there simply wasn’t any more work for a lot of the devs on a team,” Zelle said. “The same studio would start hiring back up months later when their next project got to the point of needing that large team again. DLC production, the employment it provides devs, and the bonus income it generates to pay them works to keep game studios out of the layoff-hire back cycles and lets game devs enjoy a more stable life.”

 

[Lanrutcon]

Yeaaaaah, I don't think you ever worked in a environment like that, it's either the boot or suck it up. Or grab a shotgun and go postal

Actually, I have. Still not an excuse. If they 'suck it up' to keep their paycheck, then in essence they're trading the quality of my purchase for their income. Still don't see why I should feel a hint of sympathy for that.

If the industry is so terrible to these people then they should bloody well look into other avenues. Get out of entertainment software, do something business related.

I don't believe you and this shows me how people don't know anything about game development.

What don't you believe? And game development sounds like normal software development, just with a reputation for getting away with murder and treating developers like consumables.

 

[Prime crotch]

Every other industry pays and provides better working conditions for software engineers than the gaming industry. But if you think gaming is your thing... I don't care.

lol get the fuck outta here, if you think things aren't the same in other industry

 

[Aaronrules380]

I would feel even less empathy for dumb people.

Every other industry pays and provides better working conditions for software engineers than the gaming industry. But if you think gaming is your thing... I don't care.

So basically you're mad that people are choosing a job to do what they care about. Yeah they could get a better job. But that wouldn't result in you getting better games. It would give you no games at all.

 

[BorkBork]

I don't think any of these things...

 

[Alebrije]

Never forget: If game prices at retail had risen in lockstep with the man-hours taken to create them over the last 3 decades, they would cost a fortune by now.

Thank god coders works as slaves so the cost can be kept low , similar to those Chinese's factories

 

[NullPointer]

Never forget: If game prices at retail had risen in lockstep with the man-hours taken to create them over the last 3 decades, they would cost a fortune by now.

OK, but in exchange for the price increase, all games come with full mod support, user hosted servers and server browsers, free multiplayer and free DLC outside of major expansions.

Like it was when I was a teenager ;p

 

[Prime crotch]

Actually, I have. Still not an excuse. If they 'suck it up' to keep their paycheck, then in essence they're trading the quality of my purchase for their income. Still don't see why I should feel a hint of sympathy for that.

If the industry is so terrible to these people then they should bloody well look into other avenues. Get out of entertainment software, do something business related.

So, essentially, got mine, fuck yours. And people wonder how come Reaganomics worked so well when people are willing to push each other under the bus

 

[MillionStabs]

Title should be more about game industry than "Video Games", since these are 90% about the industry

 

[Interficium]

I have only empathy for coffee farmers in the third world who are really working like slaves not for people who think that making games is their destiny.

It's too bad you already have an embarrassing avatar quote.

 

[Aaronrules380]

Actually, I have. Still not an excuse. If they 'suck it up' to keep their paycheck, then in essence they're trading the quality of my purchase for their income. Still don't see why I should feel a hint of sympathy for that.

If the industry is so terrible to these people then they should bloody well look into other avenues. Get out of entertainment software, do something business related.

First off this type of thing will happen in literally any other engineering job ever. Second off, I don't see what you gain from this? It's not a matter of incompetent workers, it's a matter of incompetent bosses. If we go by your standard, nothing would ever get made, because issues like this will come up no matter who gets the job.

 

[PdotMichael]

So basically you're mad that people are choosing a job to do what they care about. Yeah they could get a better job. But that wouldn't result in you getting better games. It would give you no games at all.

If working 80h is standard, and they know it but they don't want to change their life and job.

What should do I as outside? They are all smart people with degrees and skills, they could have it better pretty much instantly.

 

[Nabbis]

Developers really need a union. Half of the shit that bugs both players and developers would go away. If i had to choose cheaper games or quality, id take quality. There's a reason i don't buy mobile crap.

 

[Prime crotch]

Why doesn't dad quit his job, mom?

Developers really need a union. Half of the shit that bugs both players and developers would go away. If i had to choose cheaper games or quality, id take quality. There's a reason i don't buy mobile crap.

I doubt a union would help matters, unions been chopped to pieces ever since the 80's

 

[Alebrije]

Why doesn't dad quit his job, mom?

Becuase he is lazy...




jk..

 

[wildfire]

Never forget: If game prices at retail had risen in lockstep with the man-hours taken to create them over the last 3 decades, they would cost a fortune by now.

They did partially increase. That's why DLC is the preferred method to offer game content piecemeal. The much larger expansion packs that came out a year or 2 later of a game's release 2 decades ago has largely been abandoned since it doesn't keep large dev teams employed like DLC does and doesn't squeeze more money out of the percentage willing to burden the higher overall cost.

 

[Marty Chinn]

Exactly. If my car mechanics makes a shitty job I don't say it's okay because your work is hard.
I'm the guy who pays a lot of money for something and then I should feel even bad that I bought shit? I have only empathy for coffee farmers in the third world who are really working like slaves not for people who think that making games is their destiny.

A mechanic repairing a car is more or less a straight forward job. You find the problem and then you fix it. There's a clear path to fixing a car. A game however isn't defined so clearly. How do you define fun? How can you measure fun? How do you define what it takes to make a game fun? Sometimes there's trial and error and experimentation to figure out what works and what doesn't. So it's not so easy to completely plan out accurately. You can do things based off experience, but rarely does it ever fall in line with the timeline you plan out. It's a lot different when you're working on something that's completely subjective.

 

[Pathfinder]

A mechanic repairing a car is more or less a straight forward job. You find the problem and then you fix it. There's a clear path to fixing a car. A game however isn't defined so clearly. How do you define fun? How can you measure fun? How do you define what it takes to make a game fun? Sometimes there's trial and error and experimentation to figure out what works and what doesn't. So it's not so easy to completely plan out accurately. You can do things based off experience, but rarely does it ever fall in line with the timeline you plan out. It's a lot different when you're working on something that's completely subjective.

Very well said.

 

[Nabbis]

I doubt a union would help matters, unions been chopped to pieces ever since the 80's

Well what then? Continue being publishers bitches? There's zero control on their end, you can't even talk shit about bad company policy due to this "burning bridges" concept.

 

[Apt101]

I sympathize with them, but they should really unionize if things are so terrible.

 

[thesonovabeach]

Why did they have to be so clickbaity ? The content of the article is interesting and it's always great to read developers quotes, but come on, nobody thinks that making a videogame is easy or that all developers are rich.

 

[wildfire]

Title should be more about game industry than "Video Games", since these are 90% about the industry

No need to be obtuse. The games wouldn't exist without the industry churning them out. Every section except "all game developers are rich" could be reworded to reflect the games themselves instead of the people making them. Just roll with it.

 

[Aaronrules380]

If working 80h is standard, and they know it but they don't want to change their life and job.

What should do I as outside? They are all smart people with degrees and skills, they could have it better pretty much instantly.

Ok, but they want to make games. Your arguement is that because they want to make games, they should be blamed for decisions higher ups force on them while making games. How is that right? Why shouldn't somebody be able to get a job doing something they love and get decent work decisions? It seems spiteful and vindictive to suggest that nobody should be able to get a job they love that doesn't treat them like shit. And it still doesn't solve the problem of the shitty decisions, because even if they quit, nothing changes. Do you think the solution is for all game developers to quit whenever given an unreasonable demand so that the higher ups will be forced to ensure better quality? Because that's super unrealistic, requires commitment from a shit ton of people outside of any individual's control, and would more likely just lead to the entire industry collapsing. And yeah they could get a better job if they worked hard (though finding a job isn't easy even if you are qualified, and still takes time and effort.)

 

[WinterSoldier]

It think the discussion/point about DLC is the most interesting. It does make sense that you need a steady stream of cash to keep talented coding staff on board during the design and conceptual phase for the next project.

Not all developers are big enough to have simultaneous projects in development. That said, not a lot of the developers who rely on said DLC are small one-project shops.

 

[Prime crotch]

Well what then? Continue being publishers bitches? There's zero control on their end, you can't even talk shit about bad company policy due to this "burning bridges" concept.

What I'm saying is this is a bigger problem than just gaming industry, so, I dunno, not an easy answer.

 

[ultracal31]

I sympathize with them, but they should really unionize if things are so terrible.

Won't likely happen for a long time when so many other people will do it for the same pay just go get a break in the industry

 

[wildfire]

Why did they have to be so clickbaity ? The content of the article is interesting and it's always great to read developers quotes, but come on, nobody thinks that making a videogame is easy or that all developers are rich.

So by nobody you mean the people you've already put on your ignore list? They exist.

 

[NipplesAndToes23]

Every time you see someone say "I have a great idea for a game but I'm not going to tell anyone because someone might steal it," they're showing that they believe in this misconception.

I can't agree with that. The possibilty of that person doing it well goes without saying and it's not like people don't actually do that in other mediums. A few months ago I was at a comic convention and a writer there told me how he originally pitched the idea for the court of owls storyline in Batman and was rejected, but then someone else got approved from his same premise and got critically acclaimed for it.

 

[Joyful]

dont know why anyone would want to be a game dev
seems like an awful industry tbh
needs some actual worker rights for a start

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

"Nods"

 

[Aaronrules380]

I think people also don't see that consumer demands are as big a part of why these practices exist as corporate greed. Consumers refuse to pay more for a base game, but inflation is always happening, plus development costs are skyrocketing since consumers keep demanding cutting edge bigger, better experiences. It's getting to a point where you'd need to sell an impossible amount of the game without dlc at $60 to even hope to make a profit. Would you guys prefer no dlc, but you pay $80 to the base game? Do you think the market as a whole would be ok with that? And that's probably still too low a price considering development costs have skyrocketed with each new gen

 

[Scientist Supreme!]

I sympathize with them, but they should really unionize if things are so terrible.

We could help with that if we didn't have the attitudes like the ones in this thread.

 

[Alebrije]

A mechanic repairing a car is more or less a straight forward job. You find the problem and then you fix it. There's a clear path to fixing a car. A game however isn't defined so clearly. How do you define fun? How can you measure fun? How do you define what it takes to make a game fun? Sometimes there's trial and error and experimentation to figure out what works and what doesn't. So it's not so easy to completely plan out accurately. You can do things based off experience, but rarely does it ever fall in line with the timeline you plan out. It's a lot different when you're working on something that's completely subjective.

I get your point but repairing a car is not a lineal straightforward process , not always you easily find wath causes a problem and can take days or even never solve them.

All works need skills and time even a guy working at McDonalds can have a hell of a work regularly. Developer o coders can have slave conditions and difficult works , but guess what : that is on most works or industries. So when I buy a game I ask for a good finished product the same way I ask for a good coffee when a go to a coffee house and I do not care if the developer or the guy that makes the coffee have a slavery job.

 

[PdotMichael]

A mechanic repairing a car is more or less a straight forward job. You find the problem and then you fix it. There's a clear path to fixing a car. A game however isn't defined so clearly. How do you define fun? How can you measure fun? How do you define what it takes to make a game fun? Sometimes there's trial and error and experimentation to figure out what works and what doesn't. So it's not so easy to completely plan out accurately. You can do things based off experience, but rarely does it ever fall in line with the timeline you plan out. It's a lot different when you're working on something that's completely subjective.

Who talks about fun?

We are talking about technical broken and unfinished games.

Ok, but they want to make games. Your arguement is that because they want to make games, they should be blamed for decisions higher ups force on them while making games. How is that right? Why shouldn't somebody be able to get a job doing something they love and get decent work decisions? It seems spiteful and vindictive to suggest that nobody should be able to get a job they love that doesn't treat them like shit. And it still doesn't solve the problem of the shitty decisions, because even if they quit, nothing changes. Do you think the solution is for all game developers to quit whenever given an unreasonable demand so that the higher ups will be forced to ensure better quality? Because that's super unrealistic, requires commitment from a shit ton of people outside of any individual's control, and would more likely just lead to the entire industry collapsing. And yeah they could get a better job if they worked hard (though finding a job isn't easy even if you are qualified, and still takes time and effort.)

I can't change the gaming industry. I can only buy the games I like.

If companies are exploiting high skilled people who could find jobs everywhere else and they are okay with it because making games is their life dream then I don't really care anymore.

 

[thesonovabeach]

So by nobody you mean the people you've already put on your ignore list? They exist.

By nobody I mean nobody I've noticed. Since I'm a non-omniscient human being, that was implied.

 

[Aaronrules380]

I get your point bit repairing a car is not a lineal straightforward process , not always you easily find wath causes a problem and can take days or even never sove them.

All works need skills and time even a guy working at McDonalds can have a hell of a work regularly. Developer o coders can have slave conditions and difficult works , but guess what : that is on most works or industries. So when I buy a game I ask for a good finished product the same way I ask for a good coffee when a go to a coffee house and I do not care if the developer or the guy that makes the coffee have a slavery job.

Do you blame the guy who made the coffee in the machine for your bad coffee if he was only provided with rotten, shitty coffee beans?

 

[Fbh]

Most of that was pretty obvious for people with a bit of common sense.

Also, about DLC.
I'm not against it, but I do not like and will never like Day 1 DLC. I don't care if it isn't content that was cut from the game, I don't care if it was made with a separate budget.
When you are offering me aditional content from the very first day I feel like I just spent $60 on an incomplete game. "Oh, hey, thx for purchasing Mass Effect 3. Oh but you are missing and entirely new crew member of this race we have been hyping up since the first game. We know you just spent $60 on this but please buy him now, we promise we made him with a separate budget from the core game"

 

[Aaronrules380]

Who talks about fun?

We are talking about technical broken and unfinished games.



I can't change the gaming industry. I can only buy the games I like.

If companies are exploiting high skilled people who could find jobs everywhere else and they are okay with it because making games is their life dream then I don't really care anymore.

Nobody is telling you to buy games because you feel pity for the devs. We're saying it's wrong to blame the devs for broken game when they were put in a situation where nobody could've gotten it working with the resources they were allotted, and they were unable to get any extensions or anything. I'm sure most developers would be happy to delay their game because they know it's not ready, but it isn't their decision to make

 

[crisdecuba]

Interesting article, but some of these 'misconceptions' aren't things I've ever seen complained about or even mentioned before reading this article:



These all seem tenuous at best in my opinion. I certainly don't think anyone believes that all developers are rich, nor that realistic visuals make for a better game.

I've seen all of these. And while most people may not believe these things if they were forced to think about it, that's not what's reflected in what they say or share online.

 

[Mozendo]

I don't get the offensive content = creative freedom tweet.
It's seems more of a complaint than a "myth"

 

[Alebrije]

Do you blame the guy who made the coffee in the machine for your bad coffee if he was only provided with rotten, shitty coffee beans?

Nope, I blame the coffee house and never return , but the guy that made the coffee knows before than me that I will get a shitty coffee , and that is morally incorrect but he also needs to earn money and won't quit his job and will keep producing bad coffee.

 

[CrunchyFrog]

I don't buy the "bug fixing is hard" explanation when there are high profile releases that have literally game-breaking bugs or ones that are FAR too common to have possibly been missed in any decent QA testing. Granted, this isn't the case with plenty of games, but you can't look me in the eye and say with a straight face that farces like last year's Assassin's Creed or MCC or Batman Arkham Knight were properly playtested prior to release.

 

[Aaronrules380]

Nppe, I blame the coffee house and never return , but the guy that made the coffee knows before than me that I will get a shitty coffee , and that is morally incorrect but he also needs to earn money and won't quit his job and will keep producing bad coffee.

But here's the thing: What if the dev signed a contract going into the job, but then a problem arises in the middle and the publisher won't allow any flexibility. This happens a lot. And because they've signed a contract, they can't just quit. They could do shitty work or otherwise try to get fired, but this would almost certainly be incredibly detrimental to getting another job

 

[Lanrutcon]

Do you blame the guy who made the coffee in the machine for your bad coffee if he was only provided with rotten, shitty coffee beans?

Oh god yes. Wtf. Like, now I'm just goddamn concerned. Do people really think like that? Oh hey, it's ok that I just got rancid coffee for my money. Shouldn't blame the guy that handed it to me, knowing full well that it's crap. I shouldn't blame him for doing an objectively terrible job just because the order came from up top.

Is that an American thing? I'm genuinely asking here, cause around here that shit doesn't fly.

I always thought "Don't blame me, I just work here" was a joke.

 

[PdotMichael]

Nobody is telling you to buy games because you feel pity for the devs. We're saying it's wrong to blame the devs for broken game when they were put in a situation where nobody could've gotten it working with the resources they were allotted, and they were unable to get any extensions or anything. I'm sure most developers would be happy to delay their game because they know it's not ready, but it isn't their decision to make

Developers and publisher are a team, so if that teams fails to provide a technical playable game then they get both shit for it. It's not that publishers with history of providing shitty games like EA or Ubisoft don't get shit here but at the same time there are games where developers fucked it up - see MGS5 and Kojima.

 

[WrenchNinja]

Proving his point

How so?

 

[Aaronrules380]

I don't buy the "bug fixing is hard" explanation when there are high profile releases that have literally game-breaking bugs or ones that are FAR too common to have possibly been missed in any decent QA testing.

They aren't missed. And they aren't saying finding bugs is hard. They're saying FIXING them is. Debugging can be incredibly difficult, and even if you fix the bug, you might create another, or even several others. And if you have to ship a product by the deadline, and you know you don't have enough time to fix every bug, you prioritize. And developers aren't choosing their own deadlines