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League of Legends Championship Series: Season 5
- Thread starter Edwardo
- Start date
WesternHeretic
Member
What? Didn't fnatic win spring split? And now #1seed for summer? How is that not consistent? Not to mention they had a roster change so that's two different teams.
Shining Sunshine
Banned
It's easy to be #1 in a trash league when you have 2 great Korean players.
Ambition
Member
I just checked the numbers since for some reason I remember them having a bad spring split and you're right. They didn't do as bad as I thought during spring
Prototype Viktor
Member
The KOO Muppets
Imperfected
Member
I know it's popular to troll about TSM, but honestly, how far are you going to stretch to try and make this point fit? I want to know now so I can get a sufficiently sized tub of popcorn ready.
They came in 1st in the Spring Split and they're either going to be 1st or 2nd in the Summer split. (Not to mention they've consistently been 1st or 2nd for years now...) What kind of gonzo standard for consistency are you setting that they're failing to uphold? Do they need to literally win every single regular season game, always, despite those are being played across multiple patches in single game formats? I mean, you do realize how ridiculously mismatched the competition in a region has to be for that to happen, right?
Seriously, the proper way to troll TSM fans is to make fun of their atrocious track record against Asian teams in general and their consistently poor performance at Worlds. Trying to say they don't perform consistently well within their own region is baffling and just does not have a reasonable factual basis. (Also, calling their GM "Wukong" is always a valid form of TSM trolling, and "EU > NA" works if you're in a hurry and just need to start an incredibly stupid argument.)
LCK:
I really don't like these half-hearted Juggermaw comps. I'm fine with Orianna in place of Lulu, but if you feel the jungle priority is high enough that you need to grab Elise, that should probably stop you from continuing with the comp, and lead instead to something that can better utilize the early-game pressure she provides or synergize into a pick-based comp.
I think it will probably work, just on account of CJ's composition not doing much of anything that well other than Vaynespotting, but it stinks of really wishy-washy coaching in champion select.
Tell that to Team Liquid.
Shining Sunshine
Banned
NA is filled with Koreans, not just TL. 12 Koreans (well, 9 since TDK is relegated) with half of them being LCK veterans. Lustboy, Impact, Piglet, Fenix, Helios, and Rush, who is or was #1 rank in Korean ladders. Going unranked to #1 rank in 30 days, tying with Faker.
EU has Huni, Reignover, and Ryu. Huni and Reignover were SKT candidates. Ryu is kinda meh from the KT Bullet days. It's easy to see why Fnatic can easily win when your top and Jungle are extremely skilled.
Meanwhile, LPL has 20 Koreans. All of Samsung White (2014 World Champs) and Blue (2014 Spring Champs). Also, Kakao and Rookie (2014 Summer Champs).
Imperfected
Member
I honestly don't feel the Korean players are even the true strength of the LPL, with a few obvious exceptions (Imp and Deft). A lot of their Korean players honestly seem a bit long-in-the-tooth and could probably be replaced effectively with local talent, or moved to coaching/advisory positions. (The same goes for Ryu and Helios, for that matter.)
I think it's kind of disingenuous to just take the Korean advantage as the one point that carries teams considering both teams with multiple Koreans got beaten in the semis in NA. In the finals you have TSM and CLG, 1 Korean in total combining both teams (Huhi hasn't played yet so I won't count him). Clearly simply having strong Koreans isn't enough to win. If anything, the track record in NA says you're more likely to lose with these highly skilled Korean players.
Even if the top 3 teams in NA are stronger than Origen/H2K, I think it doesn't really hold to call EU LCS more of a trash league than NA LCS. None of the NA teams look significantly better than TSM, who doesn't look strong at all compared to Fnatic. I admit that TSM likely underperformed at MSI, they can't be that bad in general. Still, I don't think there's a chance TSM or CLG will suddenly become stronger than Fnatic, so EU LCS still stands as a (slightly) stronger league in my eyes by virtue of their top team.
Granted, Fnatic might get stomped by the Korean and Chinese teams. I have no idea how they stack up there.
edit: Huni is a great player, but Reignover is the weakest member on Fnatic by far. He is very replaceable.
Imperfected
Member
CJ needs a better coach. I don't even know what to say about these compositions.
What was Ashe supposed to do? They already had layered initiation in this composition, but had no damage to back it up. Why take more initiation, completely forfeit the ADC arms race in the process, and end up pinning all your hopes on (apparently) Orianna getting huge and becoming your singular damage source?
Terrible, terrible comps. The Tiger's comps aren't even that good, honestly, they're just kind of YOLO-queue-ing it and picking whatever champions each of them personally feel are the strongest (aside from the botlane, who obviously seem on the same page), but it doesn't really take much more when the opposing team have basically forfeited.
What was Ashe supposed to do? They already had layered initiation in this composition, but had no damage to back it up. Why take more initiation, completely forfeit the ADC arms race in the process, and end up pinning all your hopes on (apparently) Orianna getting huge and becoming your singular damage source?
Terrible, terrible comps. The Tiger's comps aren't even that good, honestly, they're just kind of YOLO-queue-ing it and picking whatever champions each of them personally feel are the strongest (aside from the botlane, who obviously seem on the same page), but it doesn't really take much more when the opposing team have basically forfeited.
"a few"? You can have many local talents but you can't say they are on same lvl as KaKAO, RooKie or Spirit. China have many gr8 players but only 1-2 world class on every position. For example GODV is a god, but you need more this kind of player to have 3-4 world class teams. It is problem of every region but Korea. Without Korean imports China could have max. 2-3 good teams with weaker player on some positions. Now half of their league is strong and best teams have world class players on every single position. It couldn't be possible without Koreans
Move Huni and Reignover to any other western team (with maybe Origen as exception) and you would get just average lvl team. IMO without Deilor and experience of Yellowstar Fnatic wouldn't be even close to their current level. Not to mention Febiven and Rekkless are TOP 3 western players on their position.
Kotetsu534
Member
If you're really determined to write Fnatic's success off as being down to one individual (and you shouldn't), it has to be Deilor, not Huni or Reignover or even Yellowstar, especially once you know the story behind how the team was formed.
Yea pls dont write off Delior and Yellowstar's part in nouvelle Fnatic
The backstory of new Fnatic:
Part 1 : http://www.redbull.com/en/esports/s...rebuilding-fnatic-part-1-off-season-moneyball
Part 2: http://www.redbull.com/en/esports/stories/1331711926680/chance-encounters-fnatic-s-korean-odyssey
Part 3 : http://www.redbull.com/uk/en/esport...uilding-fnatic-part-3-putting-a-team-together
Part 4 : http://www.redbull.com/uk/en/esport...53/rebuilding-fnatic-part-4-facing-the-future
really good reporting by redbull esports. thnx guys!
The backstory of new Fnatic:
Part 1 : http://www.redbull.com/en/esports/s...rebuilding-fnatic-part-1-off-season-moneyball
Part 2: http://www.redbull.com/en/esports/stories/1331711926680/chance-encounters-fnatic-s-korean-odyssey
Part 3 : http://www.redbull.com/uk/en/esport...uilding-fnatic-part-3-putting-a-team-together
Part 4 : http://www.redbull.com/uk/en/esport...53/rebuilding-fnatic-part-4-facing-the-future
really good reporting by redbull esports. thnx guys!
Imperfected
Member
Oh hey, CJ with an actual, functional pick composition. At least one game in this series we'll get to see them actually play instead of losing before the map has even loaded.
Kotetsu534
Member
As long as KT don't outright win the split, KOO Tigers will be going to Worlds. That would mean Pray will make Worlds for the third time in his career, after missing last year's.
IMO Korean teams are so shaky right now that i dubt more then 1 korean team will make semis this year. KOO, CJ and KT don't look very consistent and i don't think they will all adapt well too Worlds patch (especially KOO). Even SKT have some weak points (jungle/bot). Still probably more then half semifinalists will be korean players ;>
Shining Sunshine
Banned
Keep dreaming, EU.
Prototype Viktor
Member
KOO for president! Even tho you know 1/3rd of thier bans against them
Shining Sunshine
Banned
Voted for by the pros themselves. Almost the same as my All-Korean NA dream team except the odd one out.
Aphromoo is great, but if an NA LCS team was to be formed, I would say that Lustboy is better matched up with Piglet. You can't have Aphromoo and Doublelift apart.
I actually would pick Bjergsen over Fenix though. Bjergsen is Korean-tier.
I was thinking the same thing. Fenix may be good, but Bjergsen has seemed quite good for a couple of seasons.
Voted for by the pros themselves. Almost the same as my All-Korean NA dream team except the odd one out.
Aphromoo is great, but if an NA LCS team was to be formed, I would say that Lustboy is better matched up with Piglet. You can't have Aphromoo and Doublelift apart.
I actually would pick Bjergsen over Fenix though. Bjergsen is Korean-tier.
Prototype Viktor
Member
RIP pre-perfect cell Viktor Staff's AP in 5.16 so maybe Kuro will get to play him at Worlds at this rate
Kotetsu534
Member
I guess TSM isn't very popular among the pros if neither Bjergsen or Lustboy got on there.
Imperfected
Member
I dunno, I kind of feel like the opposite is true. You can put Aphromoo together with any ADC and he's going to make them look good. I'm pretty sure he's just been pulling a Weekend At Bernie's on us with "Doublelift" this entire time.
(Lustboy's still a super great pick for NA All-Star support, though. Bunny FuFuu's probably a bit underrated, too.)
NihonTiger90
Member
The EU All Pro Team reveal was funnier.
It's Fnatic. The entire team.
PhazonBlazer
Member
Felix is way too uneven.
Bjergsen is much more consistent
Bjergsen is much more consistent
I'm guessing it's just an award type thing. I doubt they are actually going to play eachother
thestopsign
Member
Top: Impact/Zion
Jungle: Rush (this one isn't close)
Mid: Bjerg... then much later Fenix, maybe.
ADC: Doublelift has been better than Piglet all split, pretty clearly.
Support: Aphro... beginning of the split Lustboy (he has fallen way off in the past month)
Interesting thought that I had recently. Doublelift is probably the best player to ever come from NA. Arguments could be made for Aphro, Hai (for shotcalling), Meteos, Sneaky, and... maybe some of the older pro-players in their prime like Jiji, HotShot, Regi, etc.
Jungle: Rush (this one isn't close)
Mid: Bjerg... then much later Fenix, maybe.
ADC: Doublelift has been better than Piglet all split, pretty clearly.
Support: Aphro... beginning of the split Lustboy (he has fallen way off in the past month)
Interesting thought that I had recently. Doublelift is probably the best player to ever come from NA. Arguments could be made for Aphro, Hai (for shotcalling), Meteos, Sneaky, and... maybe some of the older pro-players in their prime like Jiji, HotShot, Regi, etc.
HORRORSHØW
Member
haha funny but true
i agree with this. i'd probably give top to zion straight up
Imperfected
Member
That would be the logical conclusion. I suppose it would give Riot an excuse to fly all of them out to Worlds and have them on-hand for interviews, if nothing else.
Pretty sure the actual All-Stars will be fan-voted, though.
I'm not sure how you can really push Doublelift as the best NA player when he's never won anything, even in the days when North America 100% revolved around the ADC position and all the mids/tops in the region were complete garbage.
He's an overrated player who refuses to practice. The true tragedy is that Aphromoo was a better ADC than he was, too, but made some (arguably) bad choices when then-FeaR was circling the drain and ended up propping up the player he really should have just flat-out replaced. If you're promoting the idea of him being the best player NA has ever produced just based on "legacy", then you would obviously go with Dyrus; dude's got Hall of Fame stats in terms of pre-LCS tournaments won, LCS splits won, etc.
The truly sad thing is he's still probably one of the top five players NA has ever produced, and the other four are probably all in Support positions.
No way doublelift is the best NA player produced. He's so over rated.
Aphromoo is a much better contender. Like imperfected said, he was a god tier adc in his own right just WAY too aggressive in real matches. Got punished hard for it a lot. He's much better as a support where he can be that initiator and set up the plays he sees and not get so heavily punished if he dies for it as he would if he's the carry.
Still we really need to see these guys perform on the world stage. Its one thing to say they are the best in their region, its another to see them carry the flag with pride.
Aphromoo is a much better contender. Like imperfected said, he was a god tier adc in his own right just WAY too aggressive in real matches. Got punished hard for it a lot. He's much better as a support where he can be that initiator and set up the plays he sees and not get so heavily punished if he dies for it as he would if he's the carry.
Still we really need to see these guys perform on the world stage. Its one thing to say they are the best in their region, its another to see them carry the flag with pride.
Shining Sunshine
Banned
ADC needs to be aggressive.
Sure, there are times when you shouldn't go in, but if you never be aggressive, you won't know the limits. Doublelift will succeed in getting aces more often than being caught out.
Imperfected
Member
Yeah, but at the time Aphromoo played ADC, the NA meta was ridiculously biased around the position. To the point that you would see 3-to-1 teamfights, and say that the team that got 3 kills "lost" because their ADC was the one person killed while the other team still had theirs up. There wasn't much tolerance for high-risk antics at the position back then. (This was true in most regions at the time, actually. Witness the Legend of Woong, the Ezreal Who Arcane Shifts Forward.)
He was also "risky" in the sense that he played a lot of flashy ADCs (Vayne, Draven, etc.) at a time when the meta was very much Ezreal/Corki/Graves. Draven eventually became a meta pick (and even got nerfed because of it), but that wasn't until a solid year or more after Aphromoo switched out of the role.
Like, in retrospect it's easy to say he should have stayed with FeaR/Vulcun/XDG as a carry, but at the time switching to Support on CLG made a certain amount of sense due to the prevailing meta and his playstyle.
thestopsign
Member
Many say Dan Marino is one of the best QBs of all-time yet he never won any Superbowls. Double has been consistently in the top 2 ADC in NA for 3-4 years now and has now fully adjusted to not having his whole team base comps around him (which is ironic, because other teams are doing it with protect-Kog/Vayne comps) and he is still carrying. He clearly has the best mechanics of any NA player, maybe not always the best decision making. He is the only NA player to be considered top 2-3 in the world at his position at one point (behind Wei Xiao and Woong).
For Dyrus, I thought about him, as he does have many "achievements" under his belt. He has never been all that flashy or impressive though, just solid and consistent. There are almost no LCS splits that you could call him the best top-laner in NA, with Balls, Zion, Impact, and others all looking better than him at any given point.
Aphro is interesting, as I really liked him as an ADC. He would be the one other player I really consider next to Double at the top of the list.
It needs to be a CALCULATED aggression. Doublelift and wild turtle are good examples of often failing to make good calculated aggressive plays. They are aggressive to be aggressive. They work out sometimes because they are a) surprising and b) they have the mechanical skill to outplay their opponent. Now put that same style against someone as skilled as you are and it will work out a lot less.
Aphromoo had the calculations behind it. His aggressive plays both on adc and now support are really well thought through. He probably has the best game sense of a NA player I've seen.
Kotetsu534
Member
Doublelift almost always gets the "spare" farm in CLG's games, and has had it given to him for years. Only Piglet, among major NA AD carries, has had that kind of treatment, and I think on the whole he's lived up to the responsibility well. Consider what Sneaky was able to achieve while taking an even share of resources and actually moving around the map to help his team in seasons 3 and 4.
That said, I think Doublelift has improved a lot this season and has finally shown up in the big matches. Still suspect TSM at MSG over 5 games will be a step too far, though it would be a massive monkey off CLG's back if they were to finally beat TSM in a knockout series and win a tournament.
That said, I think Doublelift has improved a lot this season and has finally shown up in the big matches. Still suspect TSM at MSG over 5 games will be a step too far, though it would be a massive monkey off CLG's back if they were to finally beat TSM in a knockout series and win a tournament.
Kotetsu534
Member
As much as I admire Faker, and know he's unequestionably the best LoL player ever, watching WeiXiao on Ezreal and Caitlyn during this era was simply astonishing. He frequently took risks that would be the height of sheer recklessness for other ADs and came away with kills and won teamfights. I remember him playing against Yellowpete (considered a very strong AD at the time) in the Worlds QFs and utterly destroying him in lane with his aggression even while Snoopeh relentlessly camped bot lane to no avail.
Shining Sunshine
Banned
Often? I think Doublelift doesn't fail often.
If you look at the best ADCs all over the world in terms of Summer Split KDA, you'll see Doublelift (5.08) is playing less riskier than even Imp (3.83) or Deft (4.36), and being close to Bang (5.96).
Piglet's KDA is absurdly high at (9.86), but TL playstyle revolves around protecting the ADC. Now, Apollo has a KDA of 7.29 and got completely destroyed. Both these teams lost. Now nothing wrong with Piglet since his team sucks, but Apollo did some crazy stupid things in those CLG games.
It pays off to play aggressive and risky or an ADC will never be a real threat. I've seen a ton of LPL and LCK to know that the best ADCs don't sit back and relax in the back line.
HORRORSHØW
Member
nagne with the outplays
Prototype Viktor
Member
....that made no sense that game 3
Shining Sunshine
Banned
Man, sucks for KOO. Completely got counter blind picked.
I like blind pick 5th game. I wonder why LCS or LPL don't do it lol.
I like blind pick 5th game. I wonder why LCS or LPL don't do it lol.
Stone Ocean
Member
How the fuck is Trist unique to Hjärnan? Did Vardags seriously never pick her this split? lol
Stone Ocean
Member
How the fuck is a team that is 6 kills ahead on a fucking gold deficit? How is Vardags fucking 100cs behind?
Holy shit Loulex stop playing Lee
Holy shit Loulex stop playing Lee