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[Lord Ghirahim]

I haven't taken the JLPT, but is it timed so strictly that reading slowly is a problem? I took speed reading classes for college proficiency tests back in the day but they didn't go well.

There's ample time, reading slowly (within reason) isn't an issue.

 

[Valkerionseven]

What kind of work is this? Do your coworkers use Japanese on the job every day, too?

Nah, they are just normal English teachers so Japanese skill isn`t needed but it certainally makes things more interesting and easier in a lot of aspects so they want to learn a bit.

For my end, my gramatical skills when writing Japanese are terrible so I want the extra reinforcement as well since I never got it, and most if not all my Japanese ability has come from literally just hanging out with my drinking/eating/gaming friends after work. My casual conversation skills exist but I would like more buckled down instruction on how to use the particles lol.

 

[TheSporkWithin]

I haven't taken the JLPT, but is it timed so strictly that reading slowly is a problem? I took speed reading classes for college proficiency tests back in the day but they didn't go well.

Many people seem to feel that it is, at the N2 and N1 levels, but many peoples' reading speeds are absurdly slow because all they read are shonen manga with furigana. I consider my reading speed to be too damn slow, and I finished with tons of time to spare (I read through most of the articles a second time to double-check everything, ended up acing the section).

For my end, my gramatical skills when writing Japanese are terrible so I want the extra reinforcement as well since I never got it, and most if not all my Japanese ability has come from literally just hanging out with my drinking/eating/gaming friends after work. My casual conversation skills exist but I would like more buckled down instruction on how to use the particles lol.

Honestly, the thing that got the particles to really internalize for me was just continued exposure through extended reading. I read some children's novels and played through some Professor Layton and Ace Attorney games and came out the other end with a much stronger grasp of basic sentence composition. (This was shortly after barely passing the N4 exam, for reference. I had really rough Japanese skills with a fair bit of kanji and vocab for that level, but terrible fundamental grammar.)

 

[AzureSkies]

Hey all!

I spent 2 years learning Japanese in college....about 6 years ago. I never got to a high-level and wasn't pretty bad at any oral exams. However, my vocab was great and I was dynamite at anything written. Though I've forgotten just about most everything, I drilled the basics of Katakana and Hiragana in enough that I still have it all memorized. I'm interested in dusting off my knowledge and getting serious, and wasn't sure if the best method would be to whip out my old Genki textbooks, or start somewhere else...? Just trying to figure out how to proceed. I'm guessing I should treat myself like a complete beginner, and start from step 1 somewhere.

Whip out Genki.

It'll be a great way to get back into Japanese.

 

[Beckx]

I was reading it out loud (well, in my head)! I suppose I should have specified that...

Yeah, typical article/email reading speed (not consciously considering the pronunciation of every individual word) would probably be closer to 10 seconds for me.

right, the context of how/why you're reading matters. using the english again, i can speed read the english paragraph in under 7 secs, skim (for more detail) it in less than 15, but reading for nuance and confirming everything is 20-30.

like at my basic i level i can skim baseball results fast (i mean, it's not hard to find "kiyomiya" and "home run" in meiji jingu taikai results ) but in depth/understanding takes way way longer.

one of my two big goals in learning japanese is to read books, everything from light novels like Legend of the Galactic Heroes to Murakami, Yoshikawa, Edogawa, Oe, etc., to history books. it's going to be a long process.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

I read as fast as I talk, and that's in English my native language. Granted I talk pretty fast, but it takes me more than 15 seconds to read the english part of expert's post. Silencing your internal voice isn't something everyone can do and isn't really a realistic expectation especially for a non-native language no matter how long you've studied.

I haven't taken the JLPT, but is it timed so strictly that reading slowly is a problem? I took speed reading classes for college proficiency tests back in the day but they didn't go well.

I've taken only Level 1 and, more recently, N1 for the JLPT, but I think they give you ample reading time. Both times I took the test, I was extremely careful reading each passage and going back to confirm things before answering and I still ended up with plenty of time remaining after finishing the section.

 

[JimPanzer]

Currently going through the Shin Kanzen Master N3 books. Could someone help me with the translation of a example sentence they use?

それはさっきも説明したことだよ。何度も同じことを言わせないでもらいたいよ。

My highly literal translation would be: "That is something I had just explained. I want to receive from you not making me say it again" or just "I hope I don't have to say the same thing again." Is this correct or am I off the mark?

 

[marimorimo]

それはさっきも説明したことだよ。何度も同じことを言わせないでもらいたいよ。

My highly literal translation would be: "That is something I had just explained. I want to receive from you not making me say it again" or just "I hope I don't have to say the same thing again." Is this correct or am I off the mark?

It means "Don't make me repeat myself."

You're in the ballpark but you're constrained by the literal translation. Usage of the giving/receiving verbs is totally unlike English and is a must to learn if you want to sound fluent in Japanese. I suggest reviewing ～てもらう、～て頂く、てくれる、～さしあげる、～てあげる、～てやる (and the other giving/receiving verbs I'm probably missing).

An important thing to remember is that the verb used is determined by the speaker's (social) position relative to the person he/she is speaking to or talking about.

 

[JimPanzer]

It means "Don't make me repeat myself."

You're in the ballpark but you're constrained by the literal translation. Usage of the giving/receiving verbs is totally unlike English and is a must to learn if you want to sound fluent in Japanese. I suggest reviewing ～てもらう、～て頂く、てくれる、～さしあげる、～てあげる、～てやる (and the other giving/receiving verbs I'm probably missing).

An important thing to remember is that the verb used is determined by the speaker's (social) position relative to the person he/she is speaking to or talking about.

I think I got the giving/receiving verbs down, the literal translation was just me trying to incorporate every information given in the sentence. I would never translate it like that, not even in my head. Also English is not my mother-tongue
The "hope" part comes from the explanation given in the book. According to it the ~てもらいたい part does mean "hope to be allowed to do something" or "hope to not have to do something by oneself".

 

[TheSporkWithin]

I wish you wouldn't keep making me repeat myself.

 

[marimorimo]

The "hope" part comes from the explanation given in the book. According to it the ~てもらいたい part does mean "hope to be allowed to do something" or "hope to not have to do something by oneself".

In essence 「～てもらう」 and 「～てもらいたい」　just mean "make/want someone to do something". When translating to English, depending on the sentence, you could add the nuance of "hope" and sometimes not. It works for some sentences but not all.

Given the context of the sentences 「それはさっきも説明したことだよ。何度も同じことを言わせないでもらいたいよ。」 personally I would never translate it using the words "hope" (or wish). Why? It's obvious from the first sentence that the speaker is irritated. The second sentence confirms his irritation as the words are combative. If I used the word "hope" that softens the sentence a lot. I feel like 「～てもらいたい」 was used here as a concession vs. the more direct 「言わせないでください」, which technically makes 「言わせないでもらいたい」 a notch more polite BUT in a passive-agressive way.

If asked to translate "I hope you don't make me repeat myself" I would probably say 「何回も同じことを言わせないでもらえばいいな～。」　or something along those lines. Non-combative. (P.S. I'm not entirely sure if this sounds natural. Zefah or somebody who knows grammar better, please check.)

These are very fine nuances so you probably don't need to tear your hair out figuring them out. As long as you understand the base meaning it wouldn't affect your scores on the JLPT.

 

[turmoil]

Hello guys/gals.

So I started learning recently and I am at the very beginning right now. I'm using genki and I am reading about the first grammar rules of the book (__wa__desu, noun no noun).

My problem is that I couldn't learn the katakanas, the hiraganas were hard but I overcame them and was eager to advance to a grammar section, but now I feel that advancing some more would be cheating, no real advancement at all

So now I will try with tofugu's mnemotechnics and realkana and will be doing only that until I learn them.

 

[Laevateinn]

For me, I feel like dwelling too much on hiragana and katakana will put you into a kind of trap. I think that it's best to remember what you can and then start remembering them in the context of vocabulary.

Instead of remembering "あいうえお." Remember things like "あおい (aoi) = blue"

I would recommend especially not spending too much time on katakana. It's useful but a lot less useful when you're trying to start learning the language.

 

[turmoil]

For me, I feel like dwelling too much on hiragana and katakana will put you into a kind of trap. I think that it's best to remember what you can and then start remembering them in the context of vocabulary.

Instead of remembering "あいうえお." Remember things like "あおい (aoi) = blue"

I would recommend especially not spending too much time on katakana. It's useful but a lot less useful when you're trying to start learning the language.

Good point, maybe I am being a little obsessive, I will try to do another kana session other day and just continue practicing and doing it as natural as possible.

 

[TickleMeElbow]

So for the past two years I was assistant proctor at the local JLPT test site, but this year they bumped me up to lead proctor. I was super confused because they usually have professors/faculty lead. I'm like "oh shit, I have to read the instructions to everyone and shit....why me? I don't even work there anymore".

Anyways I suck at reading shit infront of large groups, so I'm kinda freaking out and practicing the "script" or whatever for like two days, when I notice that the room I'm doing has.....one test taker lol. They were prolly like "just make TickleMeElbow do the room with the least responsibility" lol.

 

[AmaterasuOkami076]

Hi everyone. First time poster here. I remember dipping in and out of the old thread and meaning to get started on something like this for a while. I've been interested in learning the language since I was about 17. I'm 24 now and figured, if I don't start now, I probably never will.

With that, I bought Genki I from Amazon last week and have put aside about an hour an evening for the last four days in going through that. Basic vocab, sentence structure, numbers from 0-100, telling the time, describing people based on age, nationality, school, major etc. (I haven't learned hiragana or katakana yet, maybe I should cram before I move on?)

Considering I normally have issues with motivation, I'm happy that I'm enjoying learning so far. It doesn't feel like work at this point and when I'm having a shitty day at work, I look forward to a nice cosy evening at my desk with a cup of tea, Genki, a writing pad and pen.

I must admit though, coming back to this thread and reading people's experiences post Genki I and II is a bit of a reality check. Whilst I didn't expect immediate proficiency once I've worked through them, I didn't realise that it was such a tiny drop in the ocean and that if I haven't been surrounding myself by the language, I'm still going to be terrible to the point of probably not making much sense to the average native speaker.

I wouldn't say it's de-motivating, but it certainly makes me wonder where on earth I go from there. Then again, I should probably do all I can to get there first, I'm only a few days in and it'll be sometime before I work through both books.

Anyway, thanks for the thread. Hopefully I'll continue posting in here as my grasp of Japanese improves.

 

[TheSporkWithin]

I must admit though, coming back to this thread and reading people's experiences post Genki I and II is a bit of a reality check. Whilst I didn't expect immediate proficiency once I've worked through them, I didn't realise that it was such a tiny drop in the ocean and that if I haven't been surrounding myself by the language, I'm still going to be terrible to the point of probably not making much sense to the average native speaker.

I wouldn't say it's de-motivating, but it certainly makes me wonder where on earth I go from there. Then again, I should probably do all I can to get there first, I'm only a few days in and it'll be sometime before I work through both books.

It actually gets a lot more interesting and fun at that point if you're self-motivated. Tobira is an excellent "next step" after Genki, and it's essentially designed to equip you with the skills to learn from native materials, as well as finish out the "basic" framework for moving into higher level study.

It's definitely true that your progression will be slower with no partners with which to speak and the constant immersion of being in Japan, but it's definitely not an insurmountable setback. Your speaking skills will likely lag far far behind your others, but even people who live in Japan often fall into a trap of neglecting that area (particularly those that work in English education).

 

[AmaterasuOkami076]

It actually gets a lot more interesting and fun at that point if you're self-motivated. Tobira is an excellent "next step" after Genki, and it's essentially designed to equip you with the skills to learn from native materials, as well as finish out the "basic" framework for moving into higher level study.

It's definitely true that your progression will be slower with no partners with which to speak and the constant immersion of being in Japan, but it's definitely not an insurmountable setback. Your speaking skills will likely lag far far behind your others, but even people who live in Japan often fall into a trap of neglecting that area (particularly those that work in English education).

Thanks for the reply. That's somewhat encouraging to hear. I suppose it all comes down to confidence in the speaking department. The more confident I am in my speaking ability, the less hesitation I'll have in seeking someone to converse with.

I suppose my end goal isn't complete fluency, as I doubt my ability to get there, but it'd be great to have enough of the frameworks to know how to fill in important gaps whilst I'm there.

 

[marimorimo]

I suppose it all comes down to confidence in the speaking department. The more confident I am in my speaking ability, the less hesitation I'll have in seeking someone to converse with.
.

That's basically a chicken and egg scenario then. I've fallen into the same trap. I didn't go out of my way to talk to people because my speaking ability was crap. Zero confidence. I told myself I'll start talking to someone after I studied a bit more, memorized more vocabulary, practiced more conjugations... I mean, I didn't want to make an embarassment of myself. I'll start talking when I'm ready (whenever that is). This went on for years and years...

Turns out, you can't learn how to speak without actually talking to someone. How can you develop confidence in something you hardly ever do? The only way is to go out there and make mistakes, tons of them. Preferably with real people who would be kind enough to correct you. You'll naturally gain confidence as you talk more and make fewer and fewer mistakes.

That said, Making a fool of yourself speaking in another language is an initiation rite, one that you may not completely graduate from...!

 

[Porcile]

I met a Japanese girl who is great at speaking English, but the weirdest thing was that I was the first person she ever spoke to in English even after a couple years of studying. She just watches a shit load of English language TV and movies. Its definitely possible, and I think I'm an expert said it before, but the best way is just to flood your brain with Japanese, you wont be "fluent" but there's a definitely a level you can reach on your own with some dedication.

 

[I'm an expert]

If you guys ain't watching the kenmin/downtown special tonight with me, you ain't bout dis hardcore jgo life.

 

[Skinpop]

how many use the heisig method here? what is your experience?

I've lived a few years in japan, but since then I've been in sweden and whenever I don't force myself to study kanji I tend to forget. 8 years ago I passed jlpt n2, but just a few years later I couldn't remember more than 200-300 kanjis Since then I've mostly studied japanese on the side as optional courses at my uni.
Anyway I'm moving back to japan next year and I've been taking some courses at to push myself to the next level. I've done japanese literature, and translation(which I hate) and basically the next step would be writing a thesis which I'm not even sure if I care about. I've been thinking about writing a tool to help with learning to read so that might be an option...

it's obvious to me that my kanji skills have been severely lacking and holding me back(I strongly believe that general reading is the most effective way to learn a language). so a few months ago I made it my mission to create a long term kanji studying/reviewing habit. I'm not a fan of brute force approaches or things that basically equate to banging your head against the wall so I choose to go with the heisig method. Partly because I had used mnemonics to quickly learn and retain kanjis before but mainly because it's actually fun and even makes me laugh.

I don't know what my expectations were.. but I'm kind of amazed at my progress. In less than two months I'm at 1500 kanjis and my fail rate after just 2-3 reviews is very low. I'll probably be done with learning in about a month and after that it's just reviews.
Thinking about this system... I don't know how effective it would be for a beginner, I have the advantage that my vocabulary is large enough that I can connect almost any kanji with one or multiple readings without any effort. The criticism against heisig is usually that the order is bad, and that it doesn't teach readings but I think the speed, and retention outweights these negatives - at least in my case where I'm able to pick up the reading within just a few reviews.

basically what I want to say is that if you are in a similar position that you have a good vocabulary and are at an advanced level overall but have forgotten most of the kanji it might be worth trying heisig. you'll have to relearn kanjis you already know but progress is so quick it hardly matters. the proof for me that this actually works is that I've been able to maintain the habit every day over the past months and I don't think keeping up the reviews after I'm done learning will be an issue. I can't offer any advice for beginners since I don't know how much of an obstacle learning the readings would be. Though I would be interested in knowing how well this works for native japanese children though, since vocabulary won't be as much of an issue for them but I guess the kind of abstract thinking needed might be too much of a hurdle.

Lastly I just want to say that none of this would have been possible for me without smartphones and Anki, and I sometimes wonder what my progress would have looked like had these tools been available when I started learning.

oh and as a footnote. my idea for a tool is a program that connects or incorporates your anki deck or whatever list that keeps tabs on your kanji progress - then uses that to add furigana to kanjis you haven't studied yet when you input a text(like a book or an article). you'd be able to click a kanji to expose its furigana but that would then trigger a review of the kanji later on. the basic idea is to allow users to read any text at their precise kanji level.

 

[StayDead]

Realistically, I've been learning Japanese now for 5-6 years, all self taught. I feel fairly proficient, but I've never taken any form of formal education in it. I want to move to Japan in the future, is it entirely necessary for me to do the JLPT exams? I understand it would prove my (or prove my lack of) proficiency, but I really genuinely hate exams and do terrible in a lot of them due to being a bucket of nerves.

My issue with the exam as well is I learned the Kanji by learning words rather than the individual Kanji. I wouldn't be able to tell you how many Kanji I know as I don't count either, but I can play through most complex games and read most websites without any real major issues other than picking up a few words here and there for more technical terms I may never have come across.

Is that an issue?

 

[I'm an expert]

Well why or for what do you want to come here. That would dictate whether or not you need certifications.

 

[Laevateinn]

Realistically, I've been learning Japanese now for 5-6 years, all self taught. I feel fairly proficient, but I've never taken any form of formal education in it. I want to move to Japan in the future, is it entirely necessary for me to do the JLPT exams? I understand it would prove my (or prove my lack of) proficiency, but I really genuinely hate exams and do terrible in a lot of them due to being a bucket of nerves.

My issue with the exam as well is I learned the Kanji by learning words rather than the individual Kanji. I wouldn't be able to tell you how many Kanji I know as I don't count either, but I can play through most complex games and read most websites without any real major issues other than picking up a few words here and there for more technical terms I may never have come across.

Is that an issue?

You can move to Japan to teach English without knowing a single word. I know a few people that way who somehow knew even less Japanese when they left the country. If you want "a real job" you'll probably want to get the JLPT out of the way.

I was offered a job earlier this year in Tokyo as a software developer. Not having the JLPT done, my options were rather limited and the company basically offered me a position as a slave. I didn't take it of course but it's increased my motivation to get to a point where I'm comfortable taking the N2 exam.

To get an idea of whether or not you need the JLPT and what level you might need, you should go to a foreigner targeting job-site like Daijob and get an idea of what positions in your field are interested in.

 

[marimorimo]

Realistically, I've been learning Japanese now for 5-6 years, all self taught. I feel fairly proficient, but I've never taken any form of formal education in it. I want to move to Japan in the future, is it entirely necessary for me to do the JLPT exams? I understand it would prove my (or prove my lack of) proficiency, but I really genuinely hate exams and do terrible in a lot of them due to being a bucket of nerves.

My issue with the exam as well is I learned the Kanji by learning words rather than the individual Kanji. I wouldn't be able to tell you how many Kanji I know as I don't count either, but I can play through most complex games and read most websites without any real major issues other than picking up a few words here and there for more technical terms I may never have come across.

Is that an issue?

Just get the exam done and over with since you know Japanese already anyway. Not taking the exam when you are capable of doing it is just sabotaging your chances and limiting your choices. A lot of places won't even look at you unless you have a JLPT qualification.

It's not like the exam has a speaking and writing section. If you can pick out words and kanjis from context I'd say you're mostly good to go (I'm that way too, as I don't actually know all 1,900+ kanji and still passed N1).

In case you fail, just retake it again.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Realistically, I've been learning Japanese now for 5-6 years, all self taught. I feel fairly proficient, but I've never taken any form of formal education in it. I want to move to Japan in the future, is it entirely necessary for me to do the JLPT exams? I understand it would prove my (or prove my lack of) proficiency, but I really genuinely hate exams and do terrible in a lot of them due to being a bucket of nerves.

My issue with the exam as well is I learned the Kanji by learning words rather than the individual Kanji. I wouldn't be able to tell you how many Kanji I know as I don't count either, but I can play through most complex games and read most websites without any real major issues other than picking up a few words here and there for more technical terms I may never have come across.

Is that an issue?

Order a sample exam for N1 or just pickup a practice book for the reading section and test yourself. You should get a pretty good idea of whether or not you can pass it or not without additional study.

As Expert said, it totally depends on what you intend to do in Japan when it comes to whether the certification will come in handy or not. If you're applying for JET or intend to be an English teacher, then there is absolutely no need for it. It may even be a detriment in those situations. If you intend to use Japanese in any professional capacity, then it will likely be useful. Obviously, your real ability is far more important, but being able to say you have the highest level of the standardized certification will help get your foot in the door, so to speak.

how many use the heisig method here? what is your experience?

I've lived a few years in japan, but since then I've been in sweden and whenever I don't force myself to study kanji I tend to forget. 8 years ago I passed jlpt n2, but just a few years later I couldn't remember more than 200-300 kanjis Since then I've mostly studied japanese on the side as optional courses at my uni.
Anyway I'm moving back to japan next year and I've been taking some courses at to push myself to the next level. I've done japanese literature, and translation(which I hate) and basically the next step would be writing a thesis which I'm not even sure if I care about. I've been thinking about writing a tool to help with learning to read so that might be an option...

it's obvious to me that my kanji skills have been severely lacking and holding me back(I strongly believe that general reading is the most effective way to learn a language). so a few months ago I made it my mission to create a long term kanji studying/reviewing habit. I'm not a fan of brute force approaches or things that basically equate to banging your head against the wall so I choose to go with the heisig method. Partly because I had used mnemonics to quickly learn and retain kanjis before but mainly because it's actually fun and even makes me laugh.

I don't know what my expectations were.. but I'm kind of amazed at my progress. In less than two months I'm at 1500 kanjis and my fail rate after just 2-3 reviews is very low. I'll probably be done with learning in about a month and after that it's just reviews.
Thinking about this system... I don't know how effective it would be for a beginner, I have the advantage that my vocabulary is large enough that I can connect almost any kanji with one or multiple readings without any effort. The criticism against heisig is usually that the order is bad, and that it doesn't teach readings but I think the speed, and retention outweights these negatives - at least in my case where I'm able to pick up the reading within just a few reviews.

basically what I want to say is that if you are in a similar position that you have a good vocabulary and are at an advanced level overall but have forgotten most of the kanji it might be worth trying heisig. you'll have to relearn kanjis you already know but progress is so quick it hardly matters. the proof for me that this actually works is that I've been able to maintain the habit every day over the past months and I don't think keeping up the reviews after I'm done learning will be an issue. I can't offer any advice for beginners since I don't know how much of an obstacle learning the readings would be. Though I would be interested in knowing how well this works for native japanese children though, since vocabulary won't be as much of an issue for them but I guess the kind of abstract thinking needed might be too much of a hurdle.

Lastly I just want to say that none of this would have been possible for me without smartphones and Anki, and I sometimes wonder what my progress would have looked like had these tools been available when I started learning.

oh and as a footnote. my idea for a tool is a program that connects or incorporates your anki deck or whatever list that keeps tabs on your kanji progress - then uses that to add furigana to kanjis you haven't studied yet when you input a text(like a book or an article). you'd be able to click a kanji to expose its furigana but that would then trigger a review of the kanji later on. the basic idea is to allow users to read any text at their precise kanji level.

I've railed on it before, but that's only because the idea seems preposterous to me. Trying to memorize Kanji by association English stories to each of the elements just doesn't seem like a good idea if your goal is to learn Japanese and Kanji within the context of Japanese. Some people swear it helps them remember how to write Kanji, so that might be cool and all, but it feels like a huge time investment for someone that really won't make you more proficient at Japanese. Totally anecdotal, but I've never met anyone who is truly proficient at Japanese and can utilize it even closely to that of a native speaker who has learned Kanji through the method. Not saying it isn't possible, but everyone I have seen who recommends it online or otherwise would be considered intermediate at best.

 

[Skinpop]

I've railed on it before, but that's only because the idea seems preposterous to me. Trying to memorize Kanji by association English stories to each of the elements just doesn't seem like a good idea if your goal is to learn Japanese and Kanji within the context of Japanese. Some people swear it helps them remember how to write Kanji, so that might be cool and all, but it feels like a huge time investment for someone that really won't make you more proficient at Japanese. Totally anecdotal, but I've never met anyone who is truly proficient at Japanese and can utilize it even closely to that of a native speaker who has learned Kanji through the method. Not saying it isn't possible, but everyone I have seen who recommends it online or otherwise would be considered intermediate at best.

I don't know how others do it but I make sure to only use the stories when I can't recall a kanji(during my reviews). This basically means that for the first 2-3 reviews I'll use the story but then it's immediate as with any other kanji. You want to make sure you transition ro "regular" kanji memory as soon as possible. The fact that I can associate almost all kanjis with vocabulary probably helped me accelerate this process so for this reason alone I would not recommend Heisig to beginners.

I'm not sure what you mean by waste of time. I guess you meant it in the sense that you don't think the method is effective, if you meant that the story crafting is time consuming then that isn't true.

My experience with normal kanji learning is that it requires a lot more brute force repetition and has bad retention rates, and it also happens to be incredibly boring which is a big factor for me.

Regardless, the important part is to realize that memorizing kanjis and reading isn't the same thing so you need a good reading/memorizing ratio. I can only speak for myself but the story nature of this approach has not been an obstacle when encountering these kanji in text, it's the same as when I studied the normal way.

As for you not meeting anyone who learnt kanji successfully with this method, maybe it's a time frame thing? I couldn't imagine doing this without anki on smartphones but that has only been around for so long.. I don't know. Anyway, Heisig definitely has drawbacks and you need to have a strategy to deal with that to be successful.

If I do write the application I mentioned I suppose it would be possible to plot the learning curve and compare different methods directly

 

[I'm an expert]

Zefah and I have always had the same opinion on Heisig, and we are indeed from an era where stuff like Anki didn't exist.

Anyway, I guess my question to you would be if I gave you the third page of the a daily newspaper right now, can you read it without issue?

 

[Skinpop]

Zefah and I have always had the same opinion on Heisig, and we are indeed from an era where stuff like Anki didn't exist.

Anyway, I guess my question to you would be if I gave you the third page of the a daily newspaper right now, can you read it without issue?

I'm only 2 months in so most likely not. still have 1/3 left. but I wouldn't be able to even if I crammed kanji the normal way. like I said reading is different than just memorizing kanji. I've seen great improvement in my reading ability overall.

It's not like I've never used other approaches. I've studied japanese on and off for years, lived and worked there and so on. I feel like I have the ability to judge whether this is effective for me.
It's still early but in my opinion it's working very well so far. I think my history is what enables this approach since I don't see how you get around the reading problem as a beginner but I guess we'll see in a few months how well this actually ends up working for me.

EDIT:
Maybe I should have said from the beginning that I'm not following any books or official guidelines. I'm simply using stories + a RTK deck in anki so maybe I'm doing things differently from actual Heisig.

as someone who did heisig and is currently going through the pain of now separately learning readings let me just say

don't do it

learn readings at the same time. i hear that wanikani actually teaches you a method similar to heisig to remember the character, but also teaches you readings at the same time. if i could change anything i'd do that.

yeah so this is the point I was trying to make, I know the vocabulary so I just associate the kanji with that. I make sure to not give myself a pass on a review without being able to say kun and on-yomi.

 

[Beckx]

as someone who did heisig and is currently going through the pain of now separately learning readings let me just say

don't do it

learn readings at the same time. i hear that wanikani actually teaches you a method similar to heisig to remember the character, but also teaches you readings at the same time. if i could change anything i'd do that.

 

[I'm an expert]

So I guess that basically sums up why people like Zefah and I don't get the method. According to you, after years of study, living there, working there, and using this method now, you still can't pick up something on a coffee table and read it.

Then what's the end goal/timeline? I've always said, including in the op, that every person needs to find their own methods, so I definitely agree that if this works for you that you should continue. It's just my main argument has always been..don't you want to read? Don't you want to open up a world of content with your studies? In which case, using a method like mine meant in 3-5 months you were literate. You could read. That's not just me saying it, the people who tried my method earlier in the year commented similarly how their reading level exploded.

Just feels like such a waste of time/energy for the recognition portion when you could just be reading.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

I don't know how others do it but I make sure to only use the stories when I can't recall a kanji(during my reviews). This basically means that for the first 2-3 reviews I'll use the story but then it's immediate as with any other kanji. You want to make sure you transition ro "regular" kanji memory as soon as possible. The fact that I can associate almost all kanjis with vocabulary probably helped me accelerate this process so for this reason alone I would not recommend Heisig to beginners.

I'm not sure what you mean by waste of time. I guess you meant it in the sense that you don't think the method is effective, if you meant that the story crafting is time consuming then that isn't true.

My experience with normal kanji learning is that it requires a lot more brute force repetition and has bad retention rates, and it also happens to be incredibly boring which is a big factor for me.

Regardless, the important part is to realize that memorizing kanjis and reading isn't the same thing so you need a good reading/memorizing ratio. I can only speak for myself but the story nature of this approach has not been an obstacle when encountering these kanji in text, it's the same as when I studied the normal way.

As for you not meeting anyone who learnt kanji successfully with this method, maybe it's a time frame thing? I couldn't imagine doing this without anki on smartphones but that has only been around for so long.. I don't know. Anyway, Heisig definitely has drawbacks and you need to have a strategy to deal with that to be successful.

If I do write the application I mentioned I suppose it would be possible to plot the learning curve and compare different methods directly

I specifically avoided calling it a "waste of time," because I don't really feel that way, but I do feel like that time would be better spent elsewhere if your goal is to become proficient at Japanese. Heisig just seems like a big time investment that won't help you actually read or understand Japanese. Creating and memorizing stories in English about Kanji just doesn't come across as helpful to me in the slightest *except* in the case that you just want to remember how to write a specific Kanji (only in the context of an English story). It's probably great for people who are into calligraphy, but don't really care about language learning.

For example, take the commonly used equivalent for "information" in Japanese "情報". How would you go from wanting to write "じょうほう" (you know how to say and read the word, but can't remember how to write it immediately off hand) to remembering your English story for those two characters? I can't really see how a link is established between the written characters, the reading of those characters, and their meaning in context.

Maybe I'm just missing something. In the end, there is simply no avoiding learning Kanji within the context of Japanese. Anything you do in addition to that just seems like attaching unnecessary information into the database entry, so to speak.

edit: Also, you say that memorizing Kanji and reading is not the same thing. I assume you mean the meaning and reading? If you care about learning how to *use* Japanese, then I feel like you should certainly treat them as the same thing. Pick up a book with no Furigana even if it is way above your level. Look up each and every Kanji/word you don't understand. It's laborious, but you will learn the meaning in context as well as the reading by doing this and the process of looking it up by its radical and number of strokes will go a long way to cementing it in your memory. Practice writing it at the same time for bonus points.

 

[.JayZii]

I'm taking the JLPT N2 in a few days. Good luck to anybody else whose test is coming up.

as someone who did heisig and is currently going through the pain of now separately learning readings let me just say

don't do it

learn readings at the same time. i hear that wanikani actually teaches you a method similar to heisig to remember the character, but also teaches you readings at the same time. if i could change anything i'd do that.

Yeah, wanikani is heisig's method along with readings and vocabulary in a spaced repetition system. It's slower because they control your pace, but I'm a little over halfway through, and I would definitely recommend it.

 

[Skinpop]

So I guess that basically sums up why people like Zefah and I don't get the method. According to you, after years of study, living there, working there, and using this method now, you still can't pick up something on a coffee table and read it.

Then what's the end goal/timeline? I've always said, including in the op, that every person needs to find their own methods, so I definitely agree that if this works for you that you should continue. It's just my main argument has always been..don't you want to read? Don't you want to open up a world of content with your studies? In which case, using a method like mine meant in 3-5 months you were literate. You could read. That's not just me saying it, the people who tried my method earlier in the year commented similarly how their reading level exploded.

Just feels like such a waste of time/energy for the recognition portion when you could just be reading.

I don't see how anything you are saying relates to me using this approach now. I read and write every day, and I'm doing it better every day but I'm not going to say that I can pick up the newspaper and read it if I know that I will fail on some non-negligible % of the kanji in there. As for my studies, I returned to sweden and had to focus on other things for 5 years so it's no mystery that I forgot most of the kanji I had studied. Maybe you are different but unless I'm constantly surrounded with kanji(like living in japan for example) I have to do constant reviews or I'll forget within a few years. I'll take a look at your method.

For example, take the commonly used equivalent for "information" in Japanese "情報". How would you go from wanting to write "じょうほう" (you know how to say and read the word, but can't remember how to write it immediately off hand) to remembering your English story for those two characters? I can't really see how a link is established between the written characters, the reading of those characters, and their meaning in context.

You make it sound like my japaneses studies are singularly focused this method but that's not the case. Like I wrote in my post I think any kanji learning scheme needs to be seen as a complement to actual reading.

Also, I feel like you are missing the point of the stories. Their purpose is to accelerate learning and retention until you know the kanji by heart. After a few reviews I don't even think about the stories anymore, they have served their purpose - until I forget and then I reconstruct the story and it all comes back.

just to give you an example
each card in my deck has a list of vocabulary, readings and sample sentences using the kanji. I look over these when I encounter a new card and it so happens that I more often than not know the majority of these words so I instantly or at most over 3-4 reviews link the kanji, readings and meaning. If I didn't have that knowledge then I'd probably agree this method isn't very effective. I also write and read every day, so it's not like all this effort goes unchecked.

edit: Also, you say that memorizing Kanji and reading is not the same thing. I assume you mean the meaning and reading?

no I meant reviewing kanji(using anki in my case), and actually reading text are not the same thing and that's why I feel this approach only makes sense if you make sure to have a good memorizing/reading ratio.

anyway hopefully more heisig people come out and talk about it.

why do I feel dirty being called heisig people _ I wouldn't call myself heisig-people...

just to reiterate. I wouldn't recommend this to a beginner. I think it works well for me because of my prior knowledge, so in a sense I guess you could say I'm not really doing heisig. I mean, I don't know how heisig it is to fail yourself on a review unless you can recall readings and some vocabulary but that's how I do it.

I'll look at your approach for sure, I find this discussion very interesting and learning how to learn is just exciting as learning itself so I'm certainly open to any knowledge that might help.

 

[I'm an expert]

don't look at my method lol.. keep doing what you've been doing. you'll be fine

edit: sorry was in the middle of a hots game

just from reading your post my understanding was you were once at a level that you knew 1k+ kanji and enough vocab to pass jlpt2. that's great. and then from just not staying in touch with the language for whatever reason you slowly lost it. which is all fine, i just don't get how heisig fits into as a review mechanism when it's teaching you unnecessary stuff on top of stuff you already once knew. it just feels like double the "useless" info. i would honestly recommend picking up the paper, drilling every non-negligible word/kanji you dont know, and filling in the gaps like that rather than what youre doing. this way everything returns to you through context and you are constantly forcing your brain to learn new, actually usefull, stuff as well.

thats what id recommend. doesnt mean its right.

anyway hopefully more heisig people come out and talk about it.

 

[Skinpop]

just from reading your post my understanding was you were once at a level that you knew 1k+ kanji and enough vocab to pass jlpt2. that's great. and then from just not staying in touch with the language for whatever reason you slowly lost it.

not quite right. I've been speaking japanese daily for the last ten or so years and have always made sure to expand my vocabulary. My vocabulary(sans actually writing/reading) and grammar is on a more or less fluent level.

i just don't get how heisig fits into as a review mechanism when it's teaching you unnecessary stuff on top of stuff you already once knew. it just feels like double the "useless" info. i would honestly recommend picking up the paper, drilling every non-negligible word/kanji you dont know, and filling in the gaps like that rather than what youre doing. this way everything returns to you through context and you are constantly forcing your brain to learn new, actually usefull, stuff as well.

making stories is actually fun. this shouldn't be underestimated. The likelihood of me seeing this through is much greater if I am having fun.

you make it sound like the stories are these huge time consuming information drops when in reality it's one or two minutes of visualization and then I'm done. all my cards even come with premade stories so 95% of the time I just use those. I learn vocabulary from reading, just like I did with english.

 

[I'm an expert]

yeah for sure it's interesting. keep us updated in like a month, two months, etc. i just want to see when you eventually hit the lightbulb instance when stuff clicks and you can actually read at a fairly high level or whatever. im interested in the timeline

 

[TheExodu5]

Anyone looking at using the Heisig method should really go with WaniKani. At least it incorporates the mnemonics to learn the meaning and readings, as well as vocabulary. Heisig is just pure Kanji recognition, which is only useful to a certain extent. It's going to be a lot harder when you need to start incorporating readings.

I'm only at level 4 so far, but as I see older Kanji appear again, the mnemonics usually disappear from my mind and the meaning/reading come to mind first. The biggest challenge is to actually train my brain to recognize the reading before the meaning, because recognizing the meaning first still means I'm thinking of the English translation first.

I've railed on it before, but that's only because the idea seems preposterous to me. Trying to memorize Kanji by association English stories to each of the elements just doesn't seem like a good idea if your goal is to learn Japanese and Kanji within the context of Japanese. Some people swear it helps them remember how to write Kanji, so that might be cool and all, but it feels like a huge time investment for someone that really won't make you more proficient at Japanese. Totally anecdotal, but I've never met anyone who is truly proficient at Japanese and can utilize it even closely to that of a native speaker who has learned Kanji through the method. Not saying it isn't possible, but everyone I have seen who recommends it online or otherwise would be considered intermediate at best.

The stories are only a tool for initial recognition when you're first learning the Kanji. As long as you're learning the readings as well, your brain will eventually drop the stories. The stories are pretty great since I can actually learn 50 new Kanji/Vocab in a day, and after a few SRS sessions I have more than 90% of them down.

 

[Skinpop]

Anyone looking at using the Heisig method should really go with WaniKani. At least it incorporates the mnemonics to learn the meaning and readings, as well as vocabulary. Heisig is just pure Kanji recognition, which is only useful to a certain extent. It's going to be a lot harder when you need to start incorporating readings.

so it sounds like what I'm doing is actually more like a home made wani-kani thing then since I won't allow myself to pass a review without recalling readings and vocab.

I'm only at level 4 so far, but as I see older Kanji appear again, the mnemonics usually disappear from my mind and the meaning/reading come to mind first. The biggest challenge is to actually train my brain to recognize the reading before the meaning, because recognizing the meaning first still means I'm thinking of the English translation first.

this is what I meant by the stories being intermediate things that only are there to serve that initial purpose of quick memorizing.

 

[TheExodu5]

so it sounds like what I'm doing is actually more like a home made wani-kani thing then since I won't allow myself to pass a review without recalling readings and vocab.

Yeah I think as long as you incorporate the readings you're on the right track. Try to let your mind forget about the mnemonics and actually come up with the reading and meaning naturally as you become more comfortable with the Kanji/vocab. The mnemonic should be a learning tool...training wheels so to speak. With more and more SRS sessions, you naturally drop those training wheels. If you don't need a mnemonic for a certain Kanji once you're familiar with it, don't even try to remember it as you come up with the reading/meaning.

This is actually my only issue with WK. I can forget about the mnemonics no problem. I don't remember half of the mnemonics once I become familiar with a Kanji. On the other hand, they use some really stupid names for some of the radicals that they want me to remember.

For example, the "long time" Kanji (&#20037 is also a radical. But the radical is called raptor cage. Sure, it's a bit useful in initially learning the Kanji, but from now on I definitely don't need to know or care that the radical was initially called "raptor cage". I wish they would just use the base Kanji meanings for all the radicals that correspond to Kanji.

 

[I'm an expert]

so then did you skip all the way to jlpt1 kanji?

 

[Deleted member 17706]

You make it sound like my japaneses studies are singularly focused this method but that's not the case. Like I wrote in my post I think any kanji learning scheme needs to be seen as a complement to actual reading.

Also, I feel like you are missing the point of the stories. Their purpose is to accelerate learning and retention until you know the kanji by heart. After a few reviews I don't even think about the stories anymore, they have served their purpose - until I forget and then I reconstruct the story and it all comes back.

just to give you an example
each card in my deck has a list of vocabulary, readings and sample sentences using the kanji. I look over these when I encounter a new card and it so happens that I more often than not know the majority of these words so I instantly or at most over 3-4 reviews link the kanji, readings and meaning. If I didn't have that knowledge then I'd probably agree this method isn't very effective. I also write and read every day, so it's not like all this effort goes unchecked.


no I meant reviewing kanji(using anki in my case), and actually reading text are not the same thing and that's why I feel this approach only makes sense if you make sure to have a good memorizing/reading ratio.

I think I see what you're saying now. My approach was completely different in that I really didn't do any kind of review of individual Kanji or use flash cards.

My approach was incredibly simple.

1) Buy "Kanji Drill" books for Elementary Years 1 - 6 and do each writing drill including all of the listed compounds while looking up individual meanings, radicals, and other components.

2) Simultaneously read increasingly difficult material (I used books, games, some manga at first) while looking up every single word I didn't know in my electronic dictionary via their radical/number of stroke. This lead to many discoveries like the difference between 「つきへん」 and 「にくづき」which both look like 月 when written in the modern Japanese Kanji system. I probably never would have learned this otherwise (not that it's immensely useful in a practical sense).

3) Once I was somewhat comfortable with the Years 1 - 6 Kanji Drill books, at which point I had learned hundreds of additional Kanji just through reading, I bought a 常用漢字 drill book geared towards middle school students. By the time I had worked through that and continued reading increasingly difficult material, I was pretty proficient and easily at a point I could pass JLPT1.

I guess I never saw the point in trying to learn Kanji in a vacuum outside of the writing drills. Who knows, maybe that wasn't the best approach. I never hand write anymore and often can't remember how to write certain Kanji for shit, but that's even true of many native Japanese people these days.

For example, the "long time" Kanji (&#20037 is also a radical. But the radical is called raptor cage. Sure, it's a bit useful in initially learning the Kanji, but from now on I definitely don't need to know or care that the radical was initially called "raptor cage". I wish they would just use the base Kanji meanings for all the radicals that correspond to Kanji.

That sounds incredibly stupid, arbitrary, and pointless to me, but maybe my mind just works differently. Nothing bout 久 looks like a raptor cage, raptor, or cage to me.

The biggest challenge is to actually train my brain to recognize the reading before the meaning, because recognizing the meaning first still means I'm thinking of the English translation first.

Yeah, without having tried it, this seems like the inevitable result of this method. It's why I said that I didn't understand the point of learning Kanji in the context of English. It's not really useful to learning Japanese if you just have to re-learn them later.

 

[I'm an expert]

hear that folks, proof the video games and manga = fluent in japanese

 

[Deleted member 17706]

hear that folks, proof the video games and manga = fluent in japanese

Damn right. None of that anime nonsense, though!

I would be lying if I said I didn't learn a lot from PS1/PS2 RPGs and other games and manga like Hokuto no Ken, etc. I think they can be just as useful as any kind of fiction as long as the student understands that they may not represent how modern people in real life interact with each other.

 

[I'm an expert]

Said it 100x.. importing jgames and fansubbing anime since 95. Ain't nothing wrong with that.

 

[Beckx]

Damn right. None of that anime nonsense, though!

I would be lying if I said I didn't learn a lot from PS1/PS2 RPGs and other games and manga like Hokuto no Ken, etc. I think they can be just as useful as any kind of fiction as long as the student understands that they may not represent how modern people in real life interact with each other.

so you're saying when i go to japan people won't constantly be commanding me to die? i feel like media has lied to me.

the most reassuring thing in the world to me is hearing people say they can't remember precisely how to handwrite certain kanji all the time. i get demoralized when i feel i "know" a compound by sight but have to look it up to hand write it correctly. (also often feel frustrated that i can't go from kana to kanji at all for some words, but the reverse is easy)

 

[I'm an expert]

so how'd the test go

 

[TheSporkWithin]

so how'd the test go

I don't want to jinx it, but I think I'll be holding an N1 certificate in two months. That felt way too easy, despite what I thought was a total lack of preparation on my part. I felt less prepared than I did for the N4 two years ago, which I passed with 4 points above minimum, but the test itself barely felt any harder than the N2 I sat six months ago and passed with like 150/180.

I'm not trying to humblebrag here, I'm dead serious, this is the stuff that's been running through my head since I walked out of the room: It feels really weird. The N1 is supposed to be hard, right? How can it have felt so easy? Did I get a ton of questions wrong without realizing it? I guessed or went with my gut on a dozen or so questions, maybe I got them all wrong? My Japanese is crap, so how can I feel "comfortable" walking out of the highest level JLPT there is?

I just feel strangely disillusioned. I still need to study my ass off. I still read slow as hell. I still stumble over everyday words and phrases when conversing. I still have enormous gaps in my vocabulary when I try to talk about anything outside of my work or main hobbies. How can this possibly be the highest level test there is when I still have so much stuff to learn?

 

[Porcile]

It's not the highest level test though? There's kanji kentei and there's tests designed for native speakers too, right?

edit - Ok, you mean just JLPT. Fair enough.