Valkerionseven
Member
k, i'll keep it in mind next time I travel north lol. Always apprehensive when using a word that has a Japanese equivalent, but some places will use the English+katakana pronunciation as well lol. Looking at you "delivery"
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Learning Japanese |OT| ..honor and shame are huge parts of it. Let's!
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k, i'll keep it in mind next time I travel north lol. Always apprehensive when using a word that has a Japanese equivalent, but some places will use the English+katakana pronunciation as well lol. Looking at you "delivery"
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
What was the Kagoshima word you used?
you know
if i could go back in time and change one thing about how i've been learning
it would be to go back and smack 2014 me and say "noooooo, don't buy Heisig, there are tools that will teach you kanji and readings at the same time, if you do Heisig you will find yourself pissed off in 2 years trying to pick up the readings you don't know."
bleh
if i could go back in time and change one thing about how i've been learning
it would be to go back and smack 2014 me and say "noooooo, don't buy Heisig, there are tools that will teach you kanji and readings at the same time, if you do Heisig you will find yourself pissed off in 2 years trying to pick up the readings you don't know."
bleh
Is it a good idea to do the whiteboard method when first starting with Genki I? I know bits and pieces of Japanese from editing J-E translations (so kana, some super basic grammar constructs, and a handful of kanji + vocabulary using those kanji), but I feel like I'm lacking a solid foundation.
The time commitment isn't a concern so much as me wondering if I'll get much out of it with good way to use the words. I can learn the readings for verbs and whatnot, but without the base to contextualize them in Japanese, I'm worried my retention's not going to be that high.
The time commitment isn't a concern so much as me wondering if I'll get much out of it with good way to use the words. I can learn the readings for verbs and whatnot, but without the base to contextualize them in Japanese, I'm worried my retention's not going to be that high.
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
not sure I get the question. you plan to learn a language. words and symbols make up a language. the whiteboard method is a way of ensuring you have an adequate amount of words/symbols to effectively understand the language. it doesn't require a foundation, it is the foundation, how can you waste..knowledge..? how can you not put to use..words..when learning a language.
if youre asking if you will learn words that you wont encounter in genki, yes, of course. but if your idea of studying a language is to confine your learning in the tiny lane of a textbook series, then the whiteboard method is useless for you since your studies won't amount to much anyway.
in short, studying vocab/the writing system of a language is important regardless of what language or method. you don't have to do whiteboard. but you should do something. if you just planned to follow the specific vocab lists of the book's lessons, that will eventually not be enough when you want to understand something outside of the texbook. so eventually, you will have to learn these things..right?
the convenient thing about japanese study is there are established levels and lists of words/points/kanii that can fairly accurately pinpoint where your level is. even if you do the whiteboard method just for everything up to n3, at least you can confidently say I should be able to read any book a 10 year old can. you won't be able to say that at the end of genki.
if youre asking if you will learn words that you wont encounter in genki, yes, of course. but if your idea of studying a language is to confine your learning in the tiny lane of a textbook series, then the whiteboard method is useless for you since your studies won't amount to much anyway.
in short, studying vocab/the writing system of a language is important regardless of what language or method. you don't have to do whiteboard. but you should do something. if you just planned to follow the specific vocab lists of the book's lessons, that will eventually not be enough when you want to understand something outside of the texbook. so eventually, you will have to learn these things..right?
the convenient thing about japanese study is there are established levels and lists of words/points/kanii that can fairly accurately pinpoint where your level is. even if you do the whiteboard method just for everything up to n3, at least you can confidently say I should be able to read any book a 10 year old can. you won't be able to say that at the end of genki.
Honestly I think your confusion's coming from my own. I'm realizing that I didn't word things too well, partly from not even understanding my own question.
I guess one of my takeaways from your post was that the whiteboard method seemed like an intermediary step. Like a method meant for people who might have more experience and more exposure, and might've plateaued to some extent, and were looking to take things to the "next level." I wasn't sure how well it would translate to someone largely starting fresh, or to a modified method using the Genki vocabulary instead of the JLPT lists. I'm only getting the book today, so I'm still feeling out what "beginner-level" means and where my skills stand.
I completely agree that confining myself to Genki won't amount to much, especially when I'm more interested in production than consumption. But if starting with the N4 word list isn't that bad, then I'll go for it. I guess I was just worried about getting in over my head.
I guess one of my takeaways from your post was that the whiteboard method seemed like an intermediary step. Like a method meant for people who might have more experience and more exposure, and might've plateaued to some extent, and were looking to take things to the "next level." I wasn't sure how well it would translate to someone largely starting fresh, or to a modified method using the Genki vocabulary instead of the JLPT lists. I'm only getting the book today, so I'm still feeling out what "beginner-level" means and where my skills stand.
I completely agree that confining myself to Genki won't amount to much, especially when I'm more interested in production than consumption. But if starting with the N4 word list isn't that bad, then I'll go for it. I guess I was just worried about getting in over my head.
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
While I have been very busy rearranging my life, I haven't put much effort into the thread since it seems very dead compared to the last one. That's why I wanted to try to do some community topics/discussion/activities but it's hard to gauge how many people even frequent this thread at all if they don't post. My apologies for that. It's probably why I'm taking the time to reply to this post..so sorry for the length.
--
I think when I wrote that post, the previous thread and previous community of posters were sort of stuck in a funk. A lot of people basically at the usual hump most language learners get to. You run through the basics, the textbooks, and then you're kind of left swimming in the ocean alone without a clue where to go.
The origin of the whiteboard method for me came from sort of a similar place. I realized that if I continued on the path of a university education's curriculum, after years of "study," I would be at a very low level - even if my school was ivy league. For me, I just identified the existence of the hump before I got there.
Also, since I wrote that post/guide with those specific posters at the time in my mind, I connected the whiteboard method to the other parts of the JLPT study like the grammar/idioms. I didn't have complete beginners in mind, but it doesn't mean the core of the method can't be adapted to fit any level's needs. The method is just brute force memorization through repetition and muscle memory. The act of carving the concepts into your body through your hand is what locks it in. The picture memory you build from staring at those lists for hours never goes away.
I guess what you really want to know is can you juggle/balance learning from a structured beginner's textbook while doing some crazy self-study method at the same time and how will they help or interfere with each other. It probably doesn't feel natural to have these two wildly different study methods with different content going on at the same time.
Even if you begin with the JLPT lists, you're not sure when the content will overlap with the genki books and if you'll be repeating a lot of study. In a perfect world, you would do the whiteboard method for the first two JLPT levels and that would probably ensure that any vocab you encounter in genki will be already known. Basically, you would make genki easier/faster because you don't have to waste time with vocab.. but in essence this sort of makes genki useless because at that point, why not just do the method for the grammar points at the same level as genki and ignore genki altogether?
I guess the answer to this is more about how much you want your hand held (not in a bad way) as you develop the foundation of the language. Is a grammar point, dictionary-style explanation/definition, and a few example sentences enough for you? Or do you want to spend a chapter or two explaining a topic and slowly build up using whatever methods the textbook does.
At this point. since you have the textbook coming, work your way through a bit of it first and see how the language feels. I mean, if you have the time to use the whiteboard method, the truth is, you could complete a textbook like genki in probably 2-3 days. I don't know the contents of the book, but very randomly I would assume it does stuff like polite/dictionary form, present/past tense, negatives, u/ru verbs or i/na adjectives, particles, te form, and maybe random stuff like nagara/kudasai/ka.. whatever.
There's something about textbook study that makes these concepts feel way more epic than they really are. Like in your mind you feel wowwww.. in the beginning it was just desu and now 10 chapters later I have no clue what all this kunakatta stuff is. While with something like whiteboard, the most basic concept of desu has the same weight as learning something like a conditional. It's just another point on the list, not a build up to anything. The grammar points I studied from N1 lists feel the exact same as those from an N4 list.
I think that goes into a very different topic of the psychology behind study and study methods. So the very basic TLDR I would write is to give genki an honest shot and don't worry about the whiteboard being a supplement right now. At the core of the whiteboard method is a repetition of any content you have already studied because of starting from the lowest JLPT level and working up. So whether you start alongside genki or after, you will be writing the most basic words/grammar points multiple times either way.
--
I think when I wrote that post, the previous thread and previous community of posters were sort of stuck in a funk. A lot of people basically at the usual hump most language learners get to. You run through the basics, the textbooks, and then you're kind of left swimming in the ocean alone without a clue where to go.
The origin of the whiteboard method for me came from sort of a similar place. I realized that if I continued on the path of a university education's curriculum, after years of "study," I would be at a very low level - even if my school was ivy league. For me, I just identified the existence of the hump before I got there.
Also, since I wrote that post/guide with those specific posters at the time in my mind, I connected the whiteboard method to the other parts of the JLPT study like the grammar/idioms. I didn't have complete beginners in mind, but it doesn't mean the core of the method can't be adapted to fit any level's needs. The method is just brute force memorization through repetition and muscle memory. The act of carving the concepts into your body through your hand is what locks it in. The picture memory you build from staring at those lists for hours never goes away.
I guess what you really want to know is can you juggle/balance learning from a structured beginner's textbook while doing some crazy self-study method at the same time and how will they help or interfere with each other. It probably doesn't feel natural to have these two wildly different study methods with different content going on at the same time.
Even if you begin with the JLPT lists, you're not sure when the content will overlap with the genki books and if you'll be repeating a lot of study. In a perfect world, you would do the whiteboard method for the first two JLPT levels and that would probably ensure that any vocab you encounter in genki will be already known. Basically, you would make genki easier/faster because you don't have to waste time with vocab.. but in essence this sort of makes genki useless because at that point, why not just do the method for the grammar points at the same level as genki and ignore genki altogether?
I guess the answer to this is more about how much you want your hand held (not in a bad way) as you develop the foundation of the language. Is a grammar point, dictionary-style explanation/definition, and a few example sentences enough for you? Or do you want to spend a chapter or two explaining a topic and slowly build up using whatever methods the textbook does.
At this point. since you have the textbook coming, work your way through a bit of it first and see how the language feels. I mean, if you have the time to use the whiteboard method, the truth is, you could complete a textbook like genki in probably 2-3 days. I don't know the contents of the book, but very randomly I would assume it does stuff like polite/dictionary form, present/past tense, negatives, u/ru verbs or i/na adjectives, particles, te form, and maybe random stuff like nagara/kudasai/ka.. whatever.
There's something about textbook study that makes these concepts feel way more epic than they really are. Like in your mind you feel wowwww.. in the beginning it was just desu and now 10 chapters later I have no clue what all this kunakatta stuff is. While with something like whiteboard, the most basic concept of desu has the same weight as learning something like a conditional. It's just another point on the list, not a build up to anything. The grammar points I studied from N1 lists feel the exact same as those from an N4 list.
I think that goes into a very different topic of the psychology behind study and study methods. So the very basic TLDR I would write is to give genki an honest shot and don't worry about the whiteboard being a supplement right now. At the core of the whiteboard method is a repetition of any content you have already studied because of starting from the lowest JLPT level and working up. So whether you start alongside genki or after, you will be writing the most basic words/grammar points multiple times either way.
I'm taking the n2 in Dec, I feel you on the shaky sensation. Going to be blasting through a grammar book till the test, there are so many random grammatical forms I dont know that I don't think I'll pass without some serious study.
I think Anki is not a bad way to spend your time + practice tests, for me listening comprehension is one area where I'm not sure how to effectively study. Always find it easier in person than during tests where it's kinda hard to hear and the context isn't always made obvious.
speaking of genki
is there any logic to how they choose to use/not use kanji?
some times i think maybe it's because it's a word usually written in kana alone, but then again they use あした rather than 明日 and 友だち instead of 友達. is it just completely random?
is there any logic to how they choose to use/not use kanji?
some times i think maybe it's because it's a word usually written in kana alone, but then again they use あした rather than 明日 and 友だち instead of 友達. is it just completely random?
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
the issue isn't a lack of people to answer questions, it's a lack of people asking. if you're a beginner, you (general, not specifically you) shouldn't be looking for questions to answer but rather asking endless questions. though in general there's a lot of split discussions about japan in threads all over the forum. imagine if people in import threads or anime threads or even the terrace house thread consolidated their language discussions here. unfortunately, 99% of the people in those threads aren't trying to improve any language ability.
PreyingShark
Member
That reminds me, I have a question:
What's the difference between いる/ある and 存在する?
What's the difference between いる/ある and 存在する?
TheSporkWithin
Member
Regarding the topic at hand, let's try to get some more active conversation going. What are people up to lately? I know at least a few of us are playing Persona 5. How's that treating everyone?
Roughly the difference between "There is a cat" vs "A cat exists" in English, although 存在する is used much more liberally than the latter construction is used in English. It's just more clinical/brainy and objective sounding
Roughly the difference between "There is a cat" vs "A cat exists" in English, although 存在する is used much more liberally than the latter construction is used in English. It's just more clinical/brainy and objective sounding
Hey Gaf, studying for the JLPT N4...and having a bitch of a time remembering what the rules are for all the different conditionals (と、たら、なら、ば）
My really, really bad memory on this is basically this:
と：Signifies that something will happen as a natural state of events. Example: 雨が降ると、寒くなります。
たら：...I think this is used as a "if I/you/whoever does x, y will happen" or "if x happens, my response will be this", but that seems kind of general and I'd like some guidance. I think this is also where the first sentence has to happen before the second sentence?
なら：I've always thought of this as being the same as "Since", i.e something's already concretely happened. Ex: 試験を受けるtなら、よく勉強します。
ば：I seem to remember this being a fairly loosely regulated form of conditional, maybe to indicate a result of an action? EX: 日本語を勉強すれば、上手になります。
Any help would be appreciated, been a while since I really thought about these.
My really, really bad memory on this is basically this:
と：Signifies that something will happen as a natural state of events. Example: 雨が降ると、寒くなります。
たら：...I think this is used as a "if I/you/whoever does x, y will happen" or "if x happens, my response will be this", but that seems kind of general and I'd like some guidance. I think this is also where the first sentence has to happen before the second sentence?
なら：I've always thought of this as being the same as "Since", i.e something's already concretely happened. Ex: 試験を受けるtなら、よく勉強します。
ば：I seem to remember this being a fairly loosely regulated form of conditional, maybe to indicate a result of an action? EX: 日本語を勉強すれば、上手になります。
Any help would be appreciated, been a while since I really thought about these.
Yeah, thankfully there's still a month to go. Let's put in some serious study and pass
Yeah it's true that it's hard to "study" listening comprehension, especially when you're not very proefficient yet. I'm doing the listening exercises in Genki and on this website (which uses the Genki vocabulary but with a normal cadence - I found some of the later ones pretty hard) and I'm also Skyping with another Gaffer every week or two to practice... I feel like I'm making progress but not fast enough haha.
Although, at ~N2 level, can't you just watch tons of native material (anime/movies/news broadcast, etc.) to improve? Watching tons of English movies w/ English subs is one of the things that helped me the most in learning the language. Although, I guess it'd be harder to do the same with Japanese material because your reading speed might not be good enough yet to keep up with the Japanese subs.
On another note I did the N5 JLPT sample questions yesterday and the listening part was a lot easier than I expected actually haha. Are those actually representative of what you'd find in the exam, or are there harder questions as well?
The listening bits are very short and you can find the answer simply by looking for one keyword. E.g. in that one question they ask "who's someone-san's sister?"; you can essentially ignore everything apart from that one sentence that contains 妹 and you've got your answer.
Here's something I found a while back. It goes into a few other conditionals and suppositionals.
Doesn't cover なら, but this might be helpful too.
Thanks for the link; I'm always looking for more stuff to practice my terrible listening with.
Appreciate the help!
BentMyWookiee
Member
It's been awhile since I've taken a class, but I'm jumping back in this week and starting up a local Japanese 2 class to pick up where I left off. The class uses Genki as a textbook, so I'm sure I'll have some questions in a couple days for those of you who are more advanced at the language.
While I had taken a break from classes, I've managed to keep up fairly well with Wanikani and am currently sitting at level 22 on there. Obviously WK on its own is not enough, so hopefully the class will help in improving my grammar and allowing me to speak with others no matter how limited my speaking ability is.
Has anybody who has used both Wanikani and Genki found that they were lacking in any area that they would suggest any specific learning tool that would supplement those two learning sources really well? *EDIT* I should note that I already use Anki for reviewing what I learn in Genki.
While I had taken a break from classes, I've managed to keep up fairly well with Wanikani and am currently sitting at level 22 on there. Obviously WK on its own is not enough, so hopefully the class will help in improving my grammar and allowing me to speak with others no matter how limited my speaking ability is.
Has anybody who has used both Wanikani and Genki found that they were lacking in any area that they would suggest any specific learning tool that would supplement those two learning sources really well? *EDIT* I should note that I already use Anki for reviewing what I learn in Genki.
I also lurk this thread sometimes. I tried to learn Japanese a couple times (8-9 years ago and again 4-5 years ago) but quit pretty early, mostly due to kanji. I finally got to visit Japan back in June and I spent the 2-3 months beforehand cramming as much Japanese as I could. I've kept up with it ever since but I'm definitely learning at a slower pace than most people probably do. I don't really know what I ultimately want to do with this knowledge and have been studying it strictly as a hobby the past few months. Self-studying is all I've ever done.
I also don't have a ton of free time to study it. Self-studying is all I've ever done. I use WaniKani for kanji and downloaded Human Japanese. I'm currently on level 8 on WK. I ran through Human Japanese Beginner a couple times and am starting to work my way through Intermediate now. The only real reading I do is Dundecat and NHKEasy. I use other sites too but none consistently. I only practiced writing a handful of times ever. I have no opportunity to speak it. When I'm bored at work I'll just google random quizzes and see how I do sometimes. I feel like with a week or two of cramming I could probably pass JLPT5.
Needless to say, not ideal studying methods. However, this is easily the farthest I've ever gotten studying Japanese. WaniKani in particular was a godsend for me. I used Remembering the Kanji my first time around and was frustrated into oblivion. I'll try to visit this thread more often.
I also don't have a ton of free time to study it. Self-studying is all I've ever done. I use WaniKani for kanji and downloaded Human Japanese. I'm currently on level 8 on WK. I ran through Human Japanese Beginner a couple times and am starting to work my way through Intermediate now. The only real reading I do is Dundecat and NHKEasy. I use other sites too but none consistently. I only practiced writing a handful of times ever. I have no opportunity to speak it. When I'm bored at work I'll just google random quizzes and see how I do sometimes. I feel like with a week or two of cramming I could probably pass JLPT5.
Needless to say, not ideal studying methods. However, this is easily the farthest I've ever gotten studying Japanese. WaniKani in particular was a godsend for me. I used Remembering the Kanji my first time around and was frustrated into oblivion. I'll try to visit this thread more often.
I'm not actually sure what the listening section will be like, I've never taken the JLPT. I just remember taking an equivalent English proficiency exam for various reasons and was surprised that I made mistakes in the listening section. Maybe I have bad ears. I think it won't be too bad for N4 though, if you have had some experience listening to the language up until now.
I find that podcasts can be helpful, especially since people tend to speak very quickly and it forces you to not translate. I can totally relate to using native material, in the sense that I can't seem to stare at a textbook for more than about 5 minutes anymore. Basically read novels, use Anki and Memrise, and I have a tutor that I meet with an hour a week to force myself to keep on track.
BentMyWookiee
Member
Question regarding particles to make sure I understand: に vs へ
So as I understand both can be used in regards to going somewhere, correct? For example:
東京に行きます。
東京へいきます。
Is there a difference? Is one preferred over the other? Would one come across more formal/informal or just sound odd in speaking over the other?
While に and へ seem interchangeable, that is not the case in regards to time, right? So for example:
金曜日に東京に行きます。 I can use this to say I will go to Tokyo on Friday?
金曜日へ東京へ行きます。 This would be an incorrect way of saying the same sentence, isn't it?
金曜日に東京へ行きます。 Would this be a correct usage?
So as I understand both can be used in regards to going somewhere, correct? For example:
東京に行きます。
東京へいきます。
Is there a difference? Is one preferred over the other? Would one come across more formal/informal or just sound odd in speaking over the other?
While に and へ seem interchangeable, that is not the case in regards to time, right? So for example:
金曜日に東京に行きます。 I can use this to say I will go to Tokyo on Friday?
金曜日へ東京へ行きます。 This would be an incorrect way of saying the same sentence, isn't it?
金曜日に東京へ行きます。 Would this be a correct usage?
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
it's funny seeing something like ni vs he come up because it's something so far removed from your mind, but you do remember the first time you encountered them and thinking similar questions.
your understanding is essentially correct and any random blurb about them you read from any online website should give you the gist of what you need to know. yes, there are certain uses for them in certain situations that favor one or where simply one is incorrect, but it's usually easier to understand those points when actually encountering those usages.
topics like this or n desu or tara/nara/ba/to or even ha vs ga, while not complicated whatsoever, have these tiny nuances that are difficult to explain in written or verbal form. i believe i wrote a post similar to this a long time ago in the other thread, but it's basically something you learn from exposure and experience. when you hear someone use nara in a certain manner, you internalize that context and understand why it was used. when someone uses multiple grammatical patterns in the same context interchangeably, you note that in your mind as well.
my point being, you can read something like this:
https://www.nhk.or.jp/bunken/research/kotoba/20160501_3.html
and be like..ah yes..indeed..mhm.. but it won't be until you're in that situation where you're listening to someone use it like that or where you yourself are forced to use it like that where you will really learn it. and then it becomes second nature and the idea of ni vs he won't even exist in your mind, you won't even think of them as similar or competing, you will simply use the one that you feel is most natural for the situation.
your understanding is essentially correct and any random blurb about them you read from any online website should give you the gist of what you need to know. yes, there are certain uses for them in certain situations that favor one or where simply one is incorrect, but it's usually easier to understand those points when actually encountering those usages.
topics like this or n desu or tara/nara/ba/to or even ha vs ga, while not complicated whatsoever, have these tiny nuances that are difficult to explain in written or verbal form. i believe i wrote a post similar to this a long time ago in the other thread, but it's basically something you learn from exposure and experience. when you hear someone use nara in a certain manner, you internalize that context and understand why it was used. when someone uses multiple grammatical patterns in the same context interchangeably, you note that in your mind as well.
my point being, you can read something like this:
https://www.nhk.or.jp/bunken/research/kotoba/20160501_3.html
and be like..ah yes..indeed..mhm.. but it won't be until you're in that situation where you're listening to someone use it like that or where you yourself are forced to use it like that where you will really learn it. and then it becomes second nature and the idea of ni vs he won't even exist in your mind, you won't even think of them as similar or competing, you will simply use the one that you feel is most natural for the situation.
Megabyte117
Member
Currently studying for the N3 in Dec and it's been a great study tool, except that some of the words I've been picking up from the game are not exactly conducive to normal conversation. Like, I can't remember the context but I learned 手下as subordinate, but then I used it in a tutoring session with my Japanese tutor and she asked if I was in the mafia - apparently it has that type of connotation haha
As for this thread in general - I lurk but probably should post more and ask more questions.
scotcheggz
Member
As a study tool, I've found a new app recently called Hello Talk. It's sort fo like a social network where you only see people who are natives of your second language and learning your native language, so it's language exchange essentially. As someone that hasn't really 'studied' for several years, I've found it really good for refreshing my mind by just spending 10-15 minutes per day writing a little post. People can correct your mistakes and you get to see a little marked up copy and you can corect others posts also. On top of that it has IM, voice and video call. After perhaps 4 years of never really using Japanese, I spoke for 4 hours on a voice call yesterday, it was exhausting but absolutely excellent to get me back up to speed. It's free, but has a paid option, however I think the only benefits of paid are being able to select multiple languages that you're studying. I've been pretty lax about Japanese for a while now, but I've found it to be a bit of a revelation, so just thought I'd share.
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
Words and concepts from a game not being used in normal daily life..an interesting theory. Not sure anyone has ever commented on.
I'd love to hear the context of how you tried to use the word with your tutor though. I'm having flashbacks to my university days when a kid tried putting 'zo' at the end of every sentence he said.
To the above post, was it 4 hours of Japanese with a native speaker or are you going back and forth in English/another language too?
I'd love to hear the context of how you tried to use the word with your tutor though. I'm having flashbacks to my university days when a kid tried putting 'zo' at the end of every sentence he said.
To the above post, was it 4 hours of Japanese with a native speaker or are you going back and forth in English/another language too?
scotcheggz
Member
With a native, their english was SUPER basic, so although we spoke some english, it was almost always the bones of a sentance and then we'd need Japanese to figure it out and explain etc. If I spoke english, they had difficulty understanding unless I explained in Japanese after. It was about 50% actual learning and 50% just pissing about and talking rubbish. Great fun, I haven't done any language exchange for ages, but it made me think i should get back on that.
Megabyte117
Member
Your cynicism is showing. I usually don't first use that sort of new vocabulary at work or in public for that reason, but I try out new structures and vocabulary in learning sessions. We were discussing the "ごらん" form and she said the speaker typically would use that to a subordinate, so then asked for the Japanese word, and I responded.
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
I was just wondering if someone would spend 4 hours for free doing language exchange if they're not getting anything out of it (the native speaker side). It's an interesting site for sure if people are willing to spend that much time on it without guarantee of anything, going off your reply that their english was so bad that it clearly wasn't for that purpose.
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Got it, they were expecting the normally used word and you came out with that. Yeah, pretty common situation that most self learners encounter.
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Got it, they were expecting the normally used word and you came out with that. Yeah, pretty common situation that most self learners encounter.
so, my approach for adding readings for all the kanji where i don't have them:
i made an anki deck w/ all the standard list kanji i "learned" in Heisig, and the standard on & kun readings for each. Kanji is on the front, the readings are on the back.
as i hit each card in anki, i edit it to add on and kun vocabulary on the front, and on the back, add the kana for the vocabulary & the Heisig keyword.
my pace is slow but that's fine for now. as i add cards i suspend the corresponding card in my heisig review deck. my goal eventually is to be where i'm only reviewing my readings deck and not my heisig deck.
thoughts on ways to improve this? (other than switching for a completely different method like whiteboard)
i made an anki deck w/ all the standard list kanji i "learned" in Heisig, and the standard on & kun readings for each. Kanji is on the front, the readings are on the back.
as i hit each card in anki, i edit it to add on and kun vocabulary on the front, and on the back, add the kana for the vocabulary & the Heisig keyword.
my pace is slow but that's fine for now. as i add cards i suspend the corresponding card in my heisig review deck. my goal eventually is to be where i'm only reviewing my readings deck and not my heisig deck.
thoughts on ways to improve this? (other than switching for a completely different method like whiteboard)
TheSporkWithin
Member
HelloTalk is a chat app that pairs people who are learning each-other's languages. You ake a profile, set your native language and the language you're learning (and indicate your level out of five) and then you can browse profiles of people whose native and target languages mirror yours.
It's sort of similar to lang-8, in that the app itself only serves as a platform, and you interact with other users. Some of them may have an agenda or try to sell you private tutoring, but ideally you'll end up in situations like scotcheggz where you just have a nice conversation and correct each others mistakes.
I haven't used it since last winter, but at that time I found that most chat partners tapered off after the self-introductions and such were finished up. I'm sure that if you put more time into it and try to strike up a ton of conversations you'll eventually find something though.
All in all, definitely not a bad app, or a scam in any way. Recommended for people who have never really had a chance to chat in Japanese.
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
Yes, don't worry about it and move your studies along. Listen to about a 1000 hours of native speakers talking and you'll get it.
scotcheggz
Member
Yes!That's my only issue with it so far too, I think there are a lot of people who like the idea, but the reality is not so easy due to time/language ability, so you will end up introducing yourself several times before you get a decent conversation going.
As far as getting nothing out of it, I think it's just that people can chat with natives in the comfort of their home. Although I live in a city with a decent Japanese population, that appeals to me, so for people who don't get a lot of chance to speak with natives it's pretty gold.
As an aside, I remember Lang-8! I was a beta tester on that site back when it first started, I didn't realise it's still going. Hello Talk is basically Lang-8 in an app, perhaps a bit slicker than the Lang-8 that I remember.
Oh, wa and ga, I have this nice little book called "Making sense of Japanese: What the textbooks don't tell you" which is sort fo a collection of short essays on specific parts of the language. One of them is on wa and ga and explains it really well. It's written by a guy who translated a few Murakami books iirc. It's an interesting read regardless and not overly dry at all.
Thanks guys. I know when to use ga and wa in a couple of sentences/situations where it's obvious which one to use, but it isn't always so clear to me. For example:
eigo ga hanasemasu ka
Don't understand why you wouldn't use wa in this case, shouldn't the emphasis of the sentence be "hasasemasu ka". Wouldn't "ga" be too upfront/direct like in other sentences I've seen? Kind of like "ENGLISH!! Do you speak it?" whereas "wa" would be "In regards to English, do you speak it?" or something like that.
TickleMeElbow
Member
It's super hard to explain haha. My dad's been speaking Japanese for like 30 + years and still gets it wrong sometimes.
If someone who had never seen a pomegranate saw you eating one, and they ask "what's that?", you'd be like (in Japanese) "kore ha zakuro" (this is a pomegranate). On the other hand if you're talking about fruit and say your favorite fruit is a pomegranate, and they're like "what's that?", you'd show them a pic on your phone and go "kore ga zakuro" (this is a pomegranate).
That probably doesn't help at all lol.
Maybe that expert dude can explain it.
Edit: Yeah people explained it much better. I'd be the shittiest teacher lol.
sorry, that's not what i meant by emphasis and that's my fault and why i should never teach anything. if you look at the Basic Dictionary of Japanese Grammar they cover it a lot better: "when the information expressed by the subject is first introduced in the discourse" (another point from the dictionary that might be useful, が is marking a subject while　は is marking a topic "as for X, it's Y.")
but as for that specific example, that's probably a "relax and don't worry about it right now" thing.
there are particular grammar points that require が rather than は, but your class should introduce them as they come up. So when you learn だれが don't replace it with だれは.
Thanks for the help!
Yeah, that makes sense. So if I introduce the subject for the first time will I always use ga? You can just reply with a yes or no if you want. Don't want to take too much time off your hands.
Yes, I believe we covered dare ga last week and a few other questions too. Thank you very much!
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
That expert dude has already addressed the topic. It's just a weird topic foreigners on the internet turned into some meme over the years. I promise you that if you use Japanese in any type of daily capacity, ha vs ga simply won't affect your life. I never understood why at literally the beginning of 1000000000000 step journey, people try to dive into the nuances of ha vs ga at step 10.
Putting aside that in non-formal settings particles are barely used in the language, even in formal settings there will never be a case where you don't understand why ha or ga was used. Therefore the only issue that exists is a weird standard foreigners seem to put on themselves that if they are in a situation where they have to use ha or ga, they must get it right or some how they lose Japanese life points.
I promise you that if someone asked what your fav fruit was and you said ringo ha suki desu, nothing would happen. The world wouldn't end nor would you look like an idiot nor would communication stop. If anything, the person you're speaking to may even wonder why you used a particle in the first place.
It's fine to want to learn and study and understand this stuff, I don't think that's bad. I just think of all the things to focus deeply on, like reading essays on the topic, this is one of the biggest wastes of time when early in your studies. All that shit above about emphasis and only one ga in a sentence, totally useless information. The amount of time someone spends reading about this topic could be used to learn 10 kanji that you will immediately be able to use and will actually improve your language ability.
Ha vs ga is more a thing of pride than language proficiency. It's not to say you shouldn't learn and study the basic uses of the particles that would come up early in studies, but that weird internet myth that there's a giant conundrum about which to use just isn't true and doesn't need to be researched deeply.
Putting aside that in non-formal settings particles are barely used in the language, even in formal settings there will never be a case where you don't understand why ha or ga was used. Therefore the only issue that exists is a weird standard foreigners seem to put on themselves that if they are in a situation where they have to use ha or ga, they must get it right or some how they lose Japanese life points.
I promise you that if someone asked what your fav fruit was and you said ringo ha suki desu, nothing would happen. The world wouldn't end nor would you look like an idiot nor would communication stop. If anything, the person you're speaking to may even wonder why you used a particle in the first place.
It's fine to want to learn and study and understand this stuff, I don't think that's bad. I just think of all the things to focus deeply on, like reading essays on the topic, this is one of the biggest wastes of time when early in your studies. All that shit above about emphasis and only one ga in a sentence, totally useless information. The amount of time someone spends reading about this topic could be used to learn 10 kanji that you will immediately be able to use and will actually improve your language ability.
Ha vs ga is more a thing of pride than language proficiency. It's not to say you shouldn't learn and study the basic uses of the particles that would come up early in studies, but that weird internet myth that there's a giant conundrum about which to use just isn't true and doesn't need to be researched deeply.
I think that unless you're studying for an exam, details don't particularly matter that much when you are learning a language. Like expert said above, when you are actually consuming media in the said language (and interacting with people) your brain will start sorting out those details by itself. It seems more productive to me to think "OK those two words mean kinda the same thing, let's leave it at that for now and move on" instead of spending too much time on them.
To really learn a language you need to learn thousands and thousands of words. Knowing the minute difference between two of them isn't that important (unless one of them is incredibly offensive and will get you stabbed or something haha).
Edit: ha well, in the time it took me to make this post another more detailed one was posted above.
To really learn a language you need to learn thousands and thousands of words. Knowing the minute difference between two of them isn't that important (unless one of them is incredibly offensive and will get you stabbed or something haha).
Edit: ha well, in the time it took me to make this post another more detailed one was posted above.
it's probably not simple enough for a rule like that with "always". you'll see a lot of dialogues and you study and get a sense for it.
I like grammar though and it makes my brain itch to not really understand the "why" of certain things. though with some grammar points in japanese i do give up and just accept it and move on.
people who have years of fluency behind them probably forget that when you're starting out you're craving information and that topics like this aren't a "waste of time" so much as they are a way to talk about and explore the language with the ability you currently have.
like at my level right now i'm struggling with certain concepts but tbh i don't feel like this thread is the best place to talk about them.
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
You're absolutely on point Hypron. The fact that these two particles are basically the same thing anyway and that the few instances they do have very specific differences in usage probably wouldn't be encountered by a beginner anyway, it's just not a worthwhile use of energy.
I really want to say, I'm not discouraging asking these questions or talking about these topics, but ha and ga is a perfect example of how you can stray off the language learning track by clouding yourself and overcomplicating things. From a study theory/method perspective, it's a very interesting topic we can discuss for days.
Just as someone who has been in the internet j-go scene since the beginning, ha vs ga is just a very strange thing that developed.
Kilgore-your teacher is bad then, unsurprisingly. If you're using a basic textbook, explaining to use ga with the existence verbs is about enough to get the point and move on.
I really want to say, I'm not discouraging asking these questions or talking about these topics, but ha and ga is a perfect example of how you can stray off the language learning track by clouding yourself and overcomplicating things. From a study theory/method perspective, it's a very interesting topic we can discuss for days.
Just as someone who has been in the internet j-go scene since the beginning, ha vs ga is just a very strange thing that developed.
Kilgore-your teacher is bad then, unsurprisingly. If you're using a basic textbook, explaining to use ga with the existence verbs is about enough to get the point and move on.
There's a big conversation that people like to have about は and が in general, and I won't get into that, but there's something to be said about this particular case. 話せる is the potential form, meaning "able to speak." You shouldn't think of が as replacing は in this instance -- it's actually being used in place of を. The reason for that is that the potential form of a verb doesn't have a direct object, since no action is being taken. It's a state.
With that said, don't take this as a universal truth, because there exist exceptions, as you would think. And in modern Japanese, it's become more common to use を in place of が, which is technically not grammatically correct, but as we all know, language evolves.
this is incredibly useful information. if i learned this with potential forms, i've forgotten it, probably because i was too busy trying to make my brain handle the pronunciation.
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
this is basically the current れる vs られる or the ぜんぜん without a negative phenomenons that are now a part of daily language.. grammar points foreigners spend time learning, out the window lol