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Learning Japanese |OT| ..honor and shame are huge parts of it. Let's!

eefara

Member
I'm trying to improve my listening skills, so I started watching Terrace House on Netflix. I don't have much experience formally working on improving listening, though, so I was hoping you guys could give some tips on what I could try doing. Right now I'm watching with Japanese subtitles, but I feel like I'm relying too much on them; I'll get the gist of a conversation from what I'm reading, not what I'm hearing.

I don't think turning them off cold turkey would help either; would it be more useful to watch with subtitles and then the same episode without?

With shorter pieces of audio I prefer simply transcribing what I hear, but that's definitely not gonna work here.
 
I'm trying to improve my listening skills, so I started watching Terrace House on Netflix. I don't have much experience formally working on improving listening, though, so I was hoping you guys could give some tips on what I could try doing. Right now I'm watching with Japanese subtitles, but I feel like I'm relying too much on them; I'll get the gist of a conversation from what I'm reading, not what I'm hearing.

I don't think turning them off cold turkey would help either; would it be more useful to watch with subtitles and then the same episode without?

With shorter pieces of audio I prefer simply transcribing what I hear, but that's definitely not gonna work here.

You could do it listening testish style. Maybe do a few minutes of listening with no subs, to see what your catching. Take a note or two, pop on the subs and see if you were catching it correctly.
 

Beckx

Member
unfortunately, we can't edit the op to link important posts, but here is expert's listening post.

it's long but it boils down to essentially what's said above: listen without subtitles, stopping and rewinding for everything you don't immediately follow. write down what you have trouble with. say it out loud. repeat.

it's a really good way to approach things. at my pathetic level i'm mostly just making complete scripts to kids shows. :/ (on the other hand, i'm now a big fan of Wan the math police dog!)

-----------------------------------------------

There's nothing to crush your confidence quite like a "pick the right particle" exercise.
 

eefara

Member
unfortunately, we can't edit the op to link important posts, but here is expert's listening post.

it's long but it boils down to essentially what's said above: listen without subtitles, stopping and rewinding for everything you don't immediately follow. write down what you have trouble with. say it out loud. repeat.

it's a really good way to approach things. at my pathetic level i'm mostly just making complete scripts to kids shows. :/ (on the other hand, i'm now a big fan of Wan the math police dog!)

I've seen his post before. I'm not particularly interested in doing something like that with this show; 45 minutes will turn into 4 hours, and I'd rather not suck the fun out of watching the show.

I understand that transcribing is going to be the most efficient, but I'd like to explore other options.
 

Jintor

Member
I'm not sure there is an effective way that doesn't leach the joy of of things. That's why I primarily do it with rewatches where I'm not fussed about story anymore.
 

Sakura

Member
I'm trying to improve my listening skills, so I started watching Terrace House on Netflix. I don't have much experience formally working on improving listening, though, so I was hoping you guys could give some tips on what I could try doing. Right now I'm watching with Japanese subtitles, but I feel like I'm relying too much on them; I'll get the gist of a conversation from what I'm reading, not what I'm hearing.

I don't think turning them off cold turkey would help either; would it be more useful to watch with subtitles and then the same episode without?

With shorter pieces of audio I prefer simply transcribing what I hear, but that's definitely not gonna work here.

If you want to improve listening comprehension, then don't use subtitles. It will never be more than a crutch. You're focusing on understanding the text, not the sound. But honestly you need a certain level of Japanese to begin with, otherwise you're just listening to words that you don't understand, in one hear out the other. If you can't understand anything without subtitles then I would focus on improving the basics first. Once you can understand around at least half of what's being said, then go without subs, and it will get easier and easier over time.
 

Jintor

Member
In regards to your 可愛そう, this only appears to be correct usage to people who don't quite understand what the そう is supposed to convey. For example consider 悲しそう. You might translate this into 'looks sad' because that works and can convey the meaning, but it's not quite the same meaning in Japanese. The そう means that you, as an observer, don't actually know, but based on what you see (or hear, etc) you get that impression. If I say in regards to a girl 悲しそう, I don't truly know how she feels. She could be happy, she could be mad, etc it's not 100%, it is just the feeling that I get. But when you say 可愛そう, this doesn't work, because if I look at her, I can decide if she is cute or not. I can see her face. She is either cute, or she isn't.
I think the problem is thinking something in English (I want to say that looks cute!) and then trying to translate that literally into Japanese (I know, I will say 可愛そう!). I guess what I am trying to say, is this isn't a situation of the rule not working, but the rule not being understood.

By the way, thank you for this explanation Sakura. It is extremely helpful.
 

Resilient

Member
I'm expecting some joy leaching as a matter of course; finding a happy medium is the challenge.

OK this is all i'm gonna add. if you want to enjoy it, keep going at the pace you're going, but understand that you won't learn as fast

if you want to quickly improve, study by breaking everything down. remember, study isn't meant to be fun. you'll advance quickly if you do let 45 min dramas turn into 8 hour study sessions.
 
I am trying to translate a children's story. Can someone please help me with similes.

For example,

"And under the bridge lived an ugly troll, with eyes as big as saucers, and a nose as long as a poker. "
 

Kurita

Member
In regards to your 可愛そう, this only appears to be correct usage to people who don't quite understand what the そう is supposed to convey. For example consider 悲しそう. You might translate this into 'looks sad' because that works and can convey the meaning, but it's not quite the same meaning in Japanese. The そう means that you, as an observer, don't actually know, but based on what you see (or hear, etc) you get that impression. If I say in regards to a girl 悲しそう, I don't truly know how she feels. She could be happy, she could be mad, etc it's not 100%, it is just the feeling that I get. But when you say 可愛そう, this doesn't work, because if I look at her, I can decide if she is cute or not. I can see her face. She is either cute, or she isn't.
I think the problem is thinking something in English (I want to say that looks cute!) and then trying to translate that literally into Japanese (I know, I will say 可愛そう!). I guess what I am trying to say, is this isn't a situation of the rule not working, but the rule not being understood.

Yup, that's pretty much what I wanted to say lol
In that case saying "Isn't she cute?"/可愛くない? would be more fitting imo
 

Beckx

Member
I am trying to translate a children's story. Can someone please help me with similes.

For example,

"And under the bridge lived an ugly troll, with eyes as big as saucers, and a nose as long as a poker. "

there are probably other ways to do it, but ように is one grammar construct that accomplishes this. e.g., 墓場のように静かです (quiet as a graveyard). i'm interested to hear from others whether you would translate this particular line using 大きさ and 長さ (e.g., 目の大きさ) to emphasize you're talking about the size/length.
 

Porcile

Member
In regards to listening, you're going to have to go through a pain barrier at some point. Maybe it means spending hours transcribing something word for word, or watching stuff you don't completely understand for those moments where you can reinforce the stuff you've been learning. Either way, there's no escaping some hard work and effort.
 
I am trying to translate a children's story. Can someone please help me with similes.

For example,

"And under the bridge lived an ugly troll, with eyes as big as saucers, and a nose as long as a poker. "

Here's my attempt. Note I changed the word order and split it into 2 sentences because my efforts to translate sentences with many subordinate clauses always sound awkward. I also find splitting it into shorter sentences makes it sound more fairy-tale like.

橋の下にトロールが住んでいました。
目が受け皿のように大きく、鼻が火かき棒のように長い醜いトロールでした。

If you insist on one sentence:
橋の下に目が受け皿のように大きく、鼻が火かき棒のように長い醜いトロールが住んでいました。

I'm interested to hear from others whether you would translate this particular line using 大きさ and 長さ (e.g., 目の大きさ) to emphasize you're talking about the size/length.

大きさ and 長さ just mean "size" and "length" respectively. There's nothing intrinsically large or long about them. You can say 「大きさはお皿くらい」or 「長さは火かき棒くらい」 but those are dry-fact sentences (The size is about as big as a plate. The length is about as long as a poker). To emphasize you need to use ~ように or even better (for exaggeration's sake) ~ほど。
 

openrob

Member
I know it's a bit weird, but can anyone point me in the direction of a PDF for Japanese for Busy People 2 - second edition. It has to be the second edition. I have the third edition, but the class I just begun use the old one!

I ordered it off Amazon, but will not be here in time for my class this week. Even some photos of the specific pages I need for this week until my book arrives would be great.

PM if you need to!
 

Beckx

Member
ize" and "length" respectively. There's nothing intrinsically large or long about them. You can say 「大きさはお皿くらい」or 「長さは火かき棒くらい」 but those are dry-fact sentences (The size is about as big as a plate. The length is about as long as a poker). To emphasize you need to use ~ように or even better (for exaggeration's sake) ~ほど。

no, i meant whether you would use 大きさ with ように (e.g. 皿のように目の大きさ), or if that sounded weird/unnatural (i'm guessing it does). using ~さ is new grammar for me so i'm trying to figure out additional uses. :)
 
(e.g. 皿のように目の大きさ)

It doesn't make sense. "Like a plate, size of the eye." Hmm. It could actually work as a poem ahaha.

The only usage I know of ~さ is to make an adjective a noun. Maybe you could say 「目の大きさはお皿のよう」?? The size of the eye is like a plate. I'm only 70% sure about this sentence though. I think it could work but there are other better ways to say it.

Come to think of it, "The size of the eye is like a plate" sounds weird in English too, doesn't it?
 

Manbig

Member
Hey everyone. I've been really screwing up in this Japanese class that I'm taking right now and I'm quite behind in my work. One thing that I have been struggling with (other than particle usage and general sentence structure) is finding a good list of い and な adjectives. I already found what appears to be a great site for verb conjugations, but does anyone know a good place where I can look up adjective conjugations?
 

Skinpop

Member
Anyone here knows how to disable recall cards in anki?

EDIT: nvm, I found out how to do it.

I'm trying to improve my listening skills, so I started watching Terrace House on Netflix. I don't have much experience formally working on improving listening, though, so I was hoping you guys could give some tips on what I could try doing. Right now I'm watching with Japanese subtitles, but I feel like I'm relying too much on them; I'll get the gist of a conversation from what I'm reading, not what I'm hearing.
You might find it useful to spend a few evenings researching japanese phonetics. Studies have shown that vowel recognition increases listening proficiency so learning how to accurately make those sounds physically is something I found to be very helpful. Recording yourself is also good practice, you'll quickly pick up mistakes in your articulation. You don't have to spend that much time on it but I found it helpful both for listening and my own speech.
 

KanameYuuki

Member
I was wondering if any of you have some game suggestions for Vita so I can start really practicing with the language?

It helps if they are kinda cheap, I was checking the store and boy they don't care if it is a handheld, prices go all over the place.
 

RangerBAD

Member
I was wondering if any of you have some game suggestions for Vita so I can start really practicing with the language?

It helps if they are kinda cheap, I was checking the store and boy they don't care if it is a handheld, prices go all over the place.

Visual novels maybe? Not going to have furigana probably.
 
I was wondering if any of you have some game suggestions for Vita so I can start really practicing with the language?

It helps if they are kinda cheap, I was checking the store and boy they don't care if it is a handheld, prices go all over the place.

You should check out the sales section.

Japan (and most of Asia, I think) doesn't really have a strong prejudice against handhelds. And that's just how their pricing and market generally is (unless you want to dive into second hand market). You'd have to usually wait for a "The Best" version, which may or may not be cheap (LOL, check Persona 4 The Golden's price). Some games may even be priced down multiple times, but the DLC is still at launch price. Or games discounted multiple times but never the DLC. So you'd end up with games that have 1000yen (and makes up 90% of the game) and 3000 DLC (and makes up 10% of the game).

Check out PSP games, too, they'd usually be quite cheap at this point.

If you're *really* tight on budget, you can try checking Asian PSN. It may have the same JP title cheaper. But be wary it's basically a mess of a market.

Depending on what level you have, the titles can vary a lot. Stuff with school settings usually have a low entry point (while still be higher than games that target children).

I'd actually go with the suggestion above but further: buy a book or manga instead.
 

KanameYuuki

Member
It would be for just really starting at all, I know grammar from my books and classes but not any vocabulary at all and that's what has me a bit upset because I just don't know how to break that vocabulary barrier.

So how did you overcome that to get the train starting, just read whatever you could find and a dictionary at hand?
 

Jintor

Member
It would be for just really starting at all, I know grammar from my books and classes but not any vocabulary at all and that's what has me a bit upset because I just don't know how to break that vocabulary barrier.

So how did you overcome that to get the train starting, just read whatever you could find and a dictionary at hand?

yeah it's slow but progress is exponential especially if you keep at it.

I've been reading a light novel and off for over a year just cos life is busy and you know i probably spent a month reading the first 10 pages because i had to stop for dictionary and to ask friends for help with grammar. But eventually it's a week for 10 pages, then a day, and so on and so on.
 

Alanae

Member
I was wondering if any of you have some game suggestions for Vita so I can start really practicing with the language?

It helps if they are kinda cheap, I was checking the store and boy they don't care if it is a handheld, prices go all over the place.
One I used was 「ダンジョントラベラーズ2 王立図書館とマモノの封印」
its a very good as drpg and have a lot of fully voiced/re-playable dialog.
The Inevitable trips you're have to take to the wiki would also teach you a lot of rpg用語 which might come in useful sometime.

Hey everyone. I've been really screwing up in this Japanese class that I'm taking right now and I'm quite behind in my work. One thing that I have been struggling with (other than particle usage and general sentence structure) is finding a good list of い and な adjectives. I already found what appears to be a great site for verb conjugations, but does anyone know a good place where I can look up adjective conjugations?

you mean like the bottom left of: https://my.mixtape.moe/uwslke.png ?
 
Does anyone know a good grammar guide that goes into detail on the use particles?
I mean in which occasions we use the ni,no,de,to,ha,ga particles and so on and so forth....
 

eefara

Member
Anyone here knows how to disable recall cards in anki?

EDIT: nvm, I found out how to do it.


You might find it useful to spend a few evenings researching japanese phonetics. Studies have shown that vowel recognition increases listening proficiency so learning how to accurately make those sounds physically is something I found to be very helpful. Recording yourself is also good practice, you'll quickly pick up mistakes in your articulation. You don't have to spend that much time on it but I found it helpful both for listening and my own speech.

Hmm. Would working with minimal pairs be helpful, do you think?
 

Kilrogg

paid requisite penance
I was watching a Dragon Quest Heroes I & II Let's Play on Switch by a Japanese guy, when something shocking happened: https://youtu.be/bhD9ZY3B6h0?t=220

The guy couldn't read 「覆」 in 「覆われる」 (for those of you wondering, it's 「おお」).

Now, that wouldn't surprise me coming from a foreigner or a Japanese kid, maybe even a junior highschooler, but the dude sounds like he's in senior high school at least.

「覆」 isn't exactly a difficult or rare kanji at all. I think I learned it for the JLPT N2. And the fact that I can instantly read even after years of essentially twiddling my thumbs speaks to how basic it must be to a native speaker.

To those of you who know Japanese people well, does that happen often? Situations where they can't read stuff that seem obvious for you. I know the ワープロバカ is strong right now, but that usually applies to writing rather than reading.
 

Skinpop

Member
Hmm. Would working with minimal pairs be helpful, do you think?

I guess it depends on what your mother tongue is. I don't think you need to go too in depth, maybe try using something like this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_Japanese

The sounds you should watch out for and learn properly are usually ん, ひ, ふ, つ, づ and maybe some more depending again on your native language, for me like I said earlier か was a tricky one since it was so subtle but still cause problem often enough, practicing with phonetics has completely corrected this issue for me. Especially ん has 3+4 different sounds depending on circumstances. Going with a hard N is acceptable when you speak but for hearing purposes it can be confusing if you don't recognize the different variations.

look at a phonetic mouth diagram to learn how to make the sounds. use the sound samples on various sites(jisho has for some vocab, not sure how good they are) to get comfortable with nuances. It's anecdotal, but I've found that once I manage to produce sounds properly it also helps with hearing them. You kinda start to get a visceral feeling for it.
Then there's stuff like intonation which imo is much harder, but more forgiving.

Another thing that might be worth practicing is the rythm of japanese. Try reading sentences aloud and make sure each mora(basically each character/syllable) has a uniform length. Many foreigners have problem where they elongate or cut of vowels which might completely change the meaning of a word. Recording yourself with audacity or a similar tool can be really helpful.
 

Sakura

Member
I was watching a Dragon Quest Heroes I & II Let's Play on Switch by a Japanese guy, when something shocking happened: https://youtu.be/bhD9ZY3B6h0?t=220

The guy couldn't read 「覆」 in 「覆われる」 (for those of you wondering, it's 「おお」).

Now, that wouldn't surprise me coming from a foreigner or a Japanese kid, maybe even a junior highschooler, but the dude sounds like he's in senior high school at least.

「覆」 isn't exactly a difficult or rare kanji at all. I think I learned it for the JLPT N2. And the fact that I can instantly read even after years of essentially twiddling my thumbs speaks to how basic it must be to a native speaker.

To those of you who know Japanese people well, does that happen often? Situations where they can't read stuff that seem obvious for you. I know the ワープロバカ is strong right now, but that usually applies to writing rather than reading.

If there are native English speaking adults who can't spell words that seem simple enough, then it shouldn't be surprising that there are Japanese that can't recall every kanji they learned.
 
To those of you who know Japanese people well, does that happen often? Situations where they can't read stuff that seem obvious for you. I know the ワープロバカ is strong right now, but that usually applies to writing rather than reading.

It happens a lot lol. Like Sakura said, just like how us native/really damn good english speakers occasionally spell things wrong or simply don't know every word in the dictionary.

You see it a ton of TV and what not for quiz shows ect. A simple...ish kanji will show up and the person can't read it or be able to write it. That's why I always tell people to not beat themselves up about not knowing every kanji or word in creation when learning a language, cause the native speakers don't either or would be able to recall all of them on a whim.
 

Torraz

Member
I am being told that while my pronounciation seems to be fine I speak with too much stress.

Any advice on how to reduce this?

Thanks!
 

Kilrogg

paid requisite penance
I am being told that while my pronounciation seems to be fine I speak with too much stress.

Any advice on how to reduce this?

Thanks!

Assuming English is your first language, the first question would be: do you understand what they mean by that? Do you know what stress is? Are you aware of the notion of "stress accent" in English?

No shame if you don't, but being aware of it is the first step towards reducing it, so feel free to ask.
 

Torraz

Member
Assuming English is your first language, the first question would be: do you understand what they mean by that? Do you know what stress is? Are you aware of the notion of "stress accent" in English?

No shame if you don't, but being aware of it is the first step towards reducing it, so feel free to ask.

Hey,
I think I am aware of what stress is. English is the third language I learned, after German and Dutch (and unfortunately have somewhat of an accent in English and Dutch). I want to avoid this in the first "new" language I am learning - Japanese! Getting it out of my "oral" muscle memory in Dutch and English is going to be quite a long road (if I ever manage that is...).

Stress is related to the concepts of function and content words, right - the latter having extra stress in them in English, in order to make it easier for the listener to grasp the gist of whatever the speaker is communicating. So that means I am subconsciously doing this in Japanese?
 

Kilrogg

paid requisite penance
Hey,
I think I am aware of what stress is. English is the third language I learned, after German and Dutch (and unfortunately have somewhat of an accent in English and Dutch). I want to avoid this in the first "new" language I am learning - Japanese! Getting it out of my "oral" muscle memory in Dutch and English is going to be quite a long road (if I ever manage that is...).

Stress is related to the concepts of function and content words, right - the latter having extra stress in them in English, in order to make it easier for the listener to grasp the gist of whatever the speaker is communicating. So that means I am subconsciously doing this in Japanese?

German and Dutch have stress accents of their own, so chances are you're unconsciously adding stress accents to words in Japanese, yeah. Which is understandable, because you're just replicating what feels like a natural flow to you. By contrast, The French have a much easier time with Japanese because there really is no such thing as a stress accent in French. This allows us to get the rhythm and pronunciation right more consistently than English speakers for instance.

I'm not sure I can give you good advice since stress accent was never a thing for me growing up as a Frenchman, but what I can tell you is that stress accent, at least in English, does three things:
1) It generally lengthens the duration of the stressed syllable
2) It tends to shape the vowel, i.e. it gives it a curve of sorts, which is why so many vowels in English become diphthongs (i.e. two vowels in one)
3) unstressed syllables become much shorter, and the vowels in them are often barely uttered
Some of those might not apply to German/Dutch though, or not to the same extent. I don't know enough about those languages to be able to tell.

Think of the Japanese rhythm as a "machinegun rhythm": each and every syllable in a sentence is a bullet of the same shape and speed that goes in a straight line. Every sound must be as flat, simple and short as the next. Another useful analogy is music: if a 3-syllable word in English might go eight note-half note-eighth note (i.e. super-short/long/super-short because there's a stress accent on the second syllable), a 3-syllable Japanese word will always go quarter note-quarter note-quarter note (i.e. same length for each syllable).

Does that help you at all? It'd honestly help if we could just Skype so I can give you some examples. Shoot me a PM if you're interested.
 

Kazuhira

Member
Noob question here,don't laugh.
Why is こんにちは pronounced as konnichiwa if he last character is not わ?.
 
I used to learn few years ago and I'm planning to refresh my skills since I forgot most of the things.

Is there some podcast of other audio materials that would be usefull for learning while driving car ?
I also got a bunch of books to learn kanji and grammar which i used previously.
 
To further elaborate, こんにちは is basically a greeting that came from a sentence being cut short. The konnichi there is 今日, so it's actually "今日は..."

To give one: 今日はご機嫌いかがですか

Same with こんばんは → 今晩
 

Kazuhira

Member
Because it's the particle は, which is pronounced wa

To further elaborate, こんにちは is basically a greeting that came from a sentence being cut short. The konnichi there is 今日, so it's actually "今日は..."

To give one: 今日はご機嫌いかがですか

Same with こんばんは → 今晩

Alright,thank you.
 

Torraz

Member
German and Dutch have stress accents of their own, so chances are you're unconsciously adding stress accents to words in Japanese, yeah. Which is understandable, because you're just replicating what feels like a natural flow to you. By contrast, The French have a much easier time with Japanese because there really is no such thing as a stress accent in French. This allows us to get the rhythm and pronunciation right more consistently than English speakers for instance.

I'm not sure I can give you good advice since stress accent was never a thing for me growing up as a Frenchman, but what I can tell you is that stress accent, at least in English, does three things:
1) It generally lengthens the duration of the stressed syllable
2) It tends to shape the vowel, i.e. it gives it a curve of sorts, which is why so many vowels in English become diphthongs (i.e. two vowels in one)
3) unstressed syllables become much shorter, and the vowels in them are often barely uttered
Some of those might not apply to German/Dutch though, or not to the same extent. I don't know enough about those languages to be able to tell.

Think of the Japanese rhythm as a "machinegun rhythm": each and every syllable in a sentence is a bullet of the same shape and speed that goes in a straight line. Every sound must be as flat, simple and short as the next. Another useful analogy is music: if a 3-syllable word in English might go eight note-half note-eighth note (i.e. super-short/long/super-short because there's a stress accent on the second syllable), a 3-syllable Japanese word will always go quarter note-quarter note-quarter note (i.e. same length for each syllable).

Does that help you at all? It'd honestly help if we could just Skype so I can give you some examples. Shoot me a PM if you're interested.

Hi, that definitely helps some! I did read that as a speaker of a "stressed" language one is "doing it right" if one feels that ones japanese pronounciation is "boring/monotonous".

Sent a PM!
 

Beckx

Member
hey, so Senbatsu (Spring Koshien high school baseball tournament) starts in 8 days. I'll be making a GAF thread again. I don't know if anyone here likes 高校野球 or what, but wanted to invite everyone to drop by. At a minimum you get hours a day of free access to Japanese sports broadcasters so use it as a listening opportunity!
 
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