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[MoogleWizard]

I prefer Zelda getting kidnapped at the tail end when most of the story is already over so it doesn't even matter.

Or, you know, not getting kidnapped at all.

Um,

Spoiler

that's exactly what happens in Skyward Sword... Ghirahim captures her only right before the final boss battle. Up until then she was on her own quest together with Impa throughout the whole game.

Edit: Wow, triple beaten, should have read the last few posts before replying. ;-)

 

[ibyea]

Aren't Zelda 1's dungeons still essentially linear in that it usually takes the item from the previous dungeon to unlock the next?

It's been a while, so I could be really wrong here.

Certain dungeons can be completed in any order, a few needs items from previous parts.

 

[The Boat]

Frankly I'm fine with purely evil villains, there's nothing all that unrealistic about people with power wanting more power. We see plenty of that in real life afterall. Besides, the story is generally more about the hero's journey than it is about the villain.

Not to mention that SS is an origin story for

Spoiler

the evil subsequent Links and Zeldas face

, so it's perfectly logical that the villains are simply evil.

 

[Dimmle]

I disagree. Its game design was already compromised. Zelda 1 is an open world game, not a sandbox game.

Neither of those genres existed in 1985.

If you need testimony that Zelda 1 is still a fun, functional game, there was a thread on GAF yesterday where many first time players posted very positive impressions of their time with it. Saying its design is compromised is like saying a subatomic particle could be more concise.

 

[LegendofLex]

I disagree. Its game design was already compromised. Zelda 1 is an open world game, not a sandbox game.

Sandbox and open world are basically synonyms. I'd certainly say that they weren't used in the way you're describing them in the 80s. The emphasis is on a lack of a linear or segmented world in favor of a world that is (mostly) open to the player from the start. They've only differentiated in recent years when "sandbox mode" has been used to describe an alternate mode where players can modify the world in addition to playing around in it.

 

[Cyd0nia]

I had a catch up with a friend who I would describe as a 'lapsed' Nintendo fan last night, he's a Maths teacher these days so he doesn't have much time for games.

His summation of the Zelda U video was thus:

'It looked really good but those old dudes were really boring. They were like, it takes 10 minutes to go from here to here on the map, lets do that now'

He's looking forward to next years reveal though, I've heard a few people say they're on board or ask when this is coming out. I'm looking forward to a more cinematic trailer and footage of the dungeons myself. With the production effort gone in to the visuals, I'm in no doubt the music will be god tier too, possibly even more sweeping and epic than Skyward Sword.

 

[ibyea]

Neither of those genres existed in 1985.

Um, Zelda 1 is open world.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Spoiler

There is that time right at the end where Ghirahim walks up and grabs her in front of everybody, Link included, to bring to the past as a sacrifice.

Spoiler

She gets kidnapped right before the final boss battle.

Edit: Beaten.

Spoiler

Right, I mostly meant at the beginning.

 

[Inquisitive_Ghost]

I really dislike that Zelda gets kidnapped with any kind of consistency at all. The woman is walking around with the power of a creator goddess, the same as Link and Ganondorf are. That she's the only one who ever gets in this position is archaic nonsense.

 

[ibyea]

Sandbox and open world are basically synonyms. The emphasis is on a lack of a linear or segmented world in favor of a world that is (mostly) open to the player from the start. They've only differentiated in recent years when "sandbox mode" has been used to describe an alternate mode where players can modify the world in addition to playing around in it.

See, those differences matter. Because in Zelda 1, unlike Minecraft, there are objectives. And if the game is too obtuse to get you through the objectives, then after wandering around for an 1 hour lost, things get really boring.

 

[Dimmle]

Um, Zelda 1 is open world.

Sure, whatever that means to you, man.

See, those differences matter. Because in Zelda 1, unlike Minecraft, there are objectives. And if the game is too obtuse to get you through the objectives, then after wandering around for an 1 hour lost, things get really boring.

It is virtually impossible to spend an hour wandering in LoZ without finding a dungeon or other lead. It's designed for you to stumble around.

 

[LegendofLex]

See, those differences matter. Because in Zelda 1, unlike Minecraft, there are objectives. And if the game is too obtuse to get you through the objectives, then after wandering around for an 1 hour lost, things get really boring.

I don't see how "I keep getting lost" and "the game is too obtuse to get you through the objectives" are synonyms. Maybe you just have no sense of direction? This game was made in a time when people definitely didn't expect to have a real-time map at their fingertips at all times. If you're evaluating it from the perspective that you need a real-time map to find your way, of course you're going to struggle.

But that doesn't make it obtuse; it just means that you don't have the tools you personally want to use to get through it. You know how people got around the problem of getting lost when they played in the 80s? They made maps themselves, and marked where the major landmarks were so they knew which places they'd already been. The creators expected you to be able to wrap your mind around concepts like spatial awareness without the aid of a tool because that's what people had to do back then to get anywhere.

The game doesn't really care which dungeons you do in which order, so all you need to do is find them. In the very few cases where the entrances aren't out in the open, someone somewhere in the world explains how to open them.

If you think it's dumb to have to make these maps yourself, don't worry! You can find them in abundance on the Internet.

 

[ibyea]

If you need testimony that Zelda 1 is still a fun, functional game, there was a thread on GAF yesterday where many first time players posted very positive impressions of their time with it. Saying its design is compromised is like saying a subatomic particle could be more concise.

Not saying you can't have fun with it. But it has aged horribly. It is a game of its time. It is the way it is because of limitations back then.

 

[ibyea]

I don't see how "I keep getting lost" and "the game is too obtuse to get you through the objectives" are synonyms. Maybe you just have no sense of direction? This game was made in a time when people definitely didn't expect to have a real-time map at their fingertips at all times. If you're evaluating it from the perspective that you need a real-time map to find your way, of course you're going to struggle.

But that doesn't make it obtuse; it just means that you don't have the tools you personally want to use to get through it.

See, I don't even need a map. By the 30th minutes you spend trying to find another dungeon, I already know the general layout. By the second hour of playing the game, I get sick of seeing the same area over and over again because for example, one dungeon is located by blowing up a random tree.

 

[zeldablue]

Um,

Spoiler

that's exactly what happens in Skyward Sword... Ghirahim captures her only right before the final boss battle. Up until then she was on her own quest together with Impa throughout the whole game.

Edit: Wow, triple beaten, should have read the last few posts before replying. ;-)

I feel like my point never really comes across well. I simply believe that the character Zelda is not a story. She is a simple goal. An object. When the game tries to make her important, the story feels awful. You know...like Koizumi said?

"When you think about the whole "save the princess" storyline of games being one of Miyamoto’s inventions, I don’t think of that as a story so much as it is a goal. It’s a way of creating a situation. There’s not necessarily a buildup and a resolution of a deeper kind, like you’d find in a novel. It’s just a situation that motivates the players. Lacking that kind of detailed nuance, that doesn’t mean I’m not interested in a story at all. It’s just that as a designer, my priorities are a little different. I tend to convey emotion in slightly different ways rather than just rely on the most obvious kind of narrative that we would think of when we think of storylines."

I just think it sucks when the story revolves around chasing Zelda. I was basically gagging over the cat and mouse plot Link and Zelda had in SS. It's not a story...it's a piece of crap. I suppose I cannot express enough how terrible I thought the premise to SS was. BUT...it could have been good if it was actually incorporated into the gameplay.

I really dislike that Zelda gets kidnapped with any kind of consistency at all. The woman is walking around with the power of a creator goddess, the same as Link and Ganondorf are. That she's the only one who ever gets in this position is archaic nonsense.

...Well...Just do something else with her. Coming into the series with Sheik was a bad mistake. Watching her devolve back into Peach has been disappointing.

 

[Dimmle]

Not saying you can't have fun with it. But it has aged horribly. It is a game of its time. It is the way it is because of limitations back then.

I'd be willing to bet that an updated version of the same game with the addition of the smoother controls of A Link to the Past or Link's Awakening would solve most of your problems with this game, honestly.

 

[TheMoon]

I feel like my point never really comes across well. I simply believe that the character Zelda is not a story. She is a simple goal. An object. When the game tries to make her important, the story feels awful. You know...like Koizumi said?

"When you think about the whole "save the princess" storyline of games being one of Miyamoto’s inventions, I don’t think of that as a story so much as it is a goal. It’s a way of creating a situation. There’s not necessarily a buildup and a resolution of a deeper kind, like you’d find in a novel. It’s just a situation that motivates the players. Lacking that kind of detailed nuance, that doesn’t mean I’m not interested in a story at all. It’s just that as a designer, my priorities are a little different. I tend to convey emotion in slightly different ways rather than just rely on the most obvious kind of narrative that we would think of when we think of storylines."

I just think it sucks when the story revolves around chasing Zelda. I was basically gagging over the cat and mouse plot Link and Zelda had in SS. It's not a story...it's a piece of crap.



...Well...Just do something else with her. Coming into the series with Sheik was a bad mistake. Watching her devolve back into Peach has been disappointing.

And this is why your point doesn't come across well. Because you're always incredibly dismissive of everything that doesn't align with the thing that annoys you.

 

[ibyea]

I'd be willing to bet that an updated version of the same game with the addition of the smoother controls of A Link to the Past or Link's Awakening would solve most of your problems with this game, honestly.

That updated game would also have to have a hint system. Because having read up on how to get to the dungeons, I would have never figured it out in a million years.

 

[LegendofLex]

See, I don't even need a map. By the 30th minutes you spend trying to find another dungeon, I already know the general layout. By the second hour of playing the game, I get sick of seeing the same area over and over again because for example, one dungeon is located by blowing up a random tree.

There are three dungeons for which the entrances aren't exposed.

- One of them requires you to use the flute to drain a fake fairy fountain. There is an NPC nearby who explains that there's something hidden "where fairies don't live."

- One of them requires you to burn a tree. It's a single tree that blocks the center of what otherwise would have been a pathway. If that doesn't scream "you can interact with me" I don't know what does.

- One of them requires you to blow up a rock. There is an NPC who says "Spectacle Rock is an entrance to Death." (A reference to Death Mountain, the name of Ganon's lair, explained in the game manual.)

I can definitely see how someone wouldn't guess to use the flute at the fake fairy fountain. But there is no dungeon in the game for which the entrance requires you to interact with a "random" object.

 

[zeldablue]

And this is why your point doesn't come across well. Because you're always incredibly dismissive of everything that doesn't align with the thing that annoys you.

Well...

At least Peach is playable. xP I just don't want a "princess is in another castle" plotline. I want it to never happen again if possible [for console Zelda.]

 

[Inquisitive_Ghost]

...Well...Just do something else with her. Coming into the series with Sheik was a bad mistake. Watching her devolve back into Peach has been disappointing.

Well, yeah, I do want them to do something else with her. Incapacitating her every single game so you can rescue her is problematic and uncreative.

 

[Dimmle]

That updated game would also have to have a hint system. Because having read up on how to get to the dungeons, I would have never figured it out in a million years.

I don't think that's unreasonable, really. I do think that most people get overwhelmed with LoZ because in addition to giving you full access to the entire map from the word "go," you must also grapple with the real aspect of the game that's aged poorly, its stiff controls. When you take those controls up against Darknuts that can turn on a dime and inflict huge damage, well, you can stop having fun pretty quickly.

But I still think the overall concept of the game is brilliant, and something that hasn't been well replicated in the franchise since. Some might argue it's good that Zelda never does the same thing twice, though.

 

[ibyea]

There are three dungeons for which the entrances aren't exposed.

- One of them requires you to use the flute to drain a fake fairy fountain. There is an NPC nearby who explains that there's something hidden "where fairies don't live."

- One of them requires you to burn a tree. It's a single tree that blocks the center of what otherwise would have been a pathway. If that doesn't scream "you can interact with me" I don't know what does.

- One of them requires you to blow up a rock. There is an NPC who says "Spectacle Rock is an entrance to Death." (A reference to Death Mountain, the name of Ganon's lair, explained in the game manual.)

I can definitely see how someone wouldn't guess to use the flute at the fake fairy fountain. But there is no dungeon in the game for which the entrance requires you to interact with a "random" object.

Well, obvious to you maybe, but I have only found 3 dungeons when I played that game. And the dungeons aren't that great either. Kill a bunch of enemies, bomb a wall, and move a block.

 

[The Boat]

I wish they did something with Zelda too. Like having her be a ninja, a pirate captain, a ruler that makes a hard decision to swallow her pride and stand down to save her people, a ghost that can possess enemies, or a simple girl that risks her life to save the world. All she does is get kidnapped, geez!

 

[LegendofLex]

Well, obvious to you maybe, but I have only found 3 dungeons when I played that game.

Curious: how old are you? (Just wondering as a kind of thought experiment.)

And the dungeons aren't that great either. Kill a bunch of enemies, bomb a wall, and move a block.

The combat difficulty is a good bit higher than recent Zeldas (and combat is the only difficulty there is when replaying the game since you already know the solutions to all the puzzles), and the exploitable shortcuts simply don't exist in recent Zeldas.

I do agree that moving blocks is way more boring than the environmental puzzles, though, and I'm glad they've at least made that improvement.

 

[ibyea]

Well...

At least Peach is playable. xP I just don't want a "princess is in another castle" plotline. I want it to never happen again if possible [for console Zelda.]

Agreed.

 

[Inquisitive_Ghost]

I don't think that's unreasonable, really. I do think that most people get overwhelmed with LoZ because in addition to giving you full access to the entire map from the word "go," you must also grapple with the real aspect of the game that's aged poorly, its stiff controls. When you take those controls up against Darknuts that can turn on a dime and inflict huge damage, well, you can stop having fun pretty quickly.

But I still think the overall concept of the game is brilliant, and something that hasn't been well replicated in the franchise since. Some might argue it's good that Zelda never does the same thing twice, though.

This is the reason I haven't completed Zelda I. I felt like I was fighting the game while trying to play it.

 

[ibyea]

Curious: how old are you? (Just wondering as a kind of thought experiment.)

24

 

[ibyea]

I don't think that's unreasonable, really. I do think that most people get overwhelmed with LoZ because in addition to giving you full access to the entire map from the word "go," you must also grapple with the real aspect of the game that's aged poorly, its stiff controls. When you take those controls up against Darknuts that can turn on a dime and inflict huge damage, well, you can stop having fun pretty quickly.

But I still think the overall concept of the game is brilliant, and something that hasn't been well replicated in the franchise since. Some might argue it's good that Zelda never does the same thing twice, though.

I don't mind that they revisit the concept btw. I am accepting of all types of Zelda games. And I think every Zelda game should try out something not in the previous game. Except for the first two Zelda games, there is not a Zelda game I dislike. I just think Zelda 1 has shown its age too much, and the game is excessively vague.

 

[Inquisitive_Ghost]

I wish they did something with Zelda too. Like having her be a ninja, a pirate captain, a ruler that makes a hard decision to swallow her pride and stand down to save her people, a ghost that can possess enemies, or a simple girl that risks her life to save the world. All she does is get kidnapped, geez!

This isn't what I said, though. I was specifically criticizing that she gets incapacitated and in need of rescue in every single game she's physically present in. Everything else they've done with her has been pretty good, and I do like that outside of this single problematic element, she has some pretty varied and interesting interpretations.

 

[TheMoon]

I wish they did something with Zelda too. Like having her be a ninja, a pirate captain, a ruler that makes a hard decision to swallow her pride and stand down to save her people, a ghost that can possess enemies, or a simple girl that risks her life to save the world. All she does is get kidnapped, geez!

I agree with both sides of this argument to an extent. She does have awesome roles in most games but when it comes to the final act, she has had a tendency to fall victim to some form of incapacitation by the antagonist in a lot of the games which is a bit annoying and not really necessary.

I'd like it if they made the final dungeon of a game a co-op dungeon where both Link and Zelda have to work together to get to whoever the final boss is. Let the player control both, for example. Doesn't need to be the gimmick for a whole game, just the final act would be neat.

But she's definitely no Peach who always just goes "oh nooo, Mario" if she's not playable.

 

[LegendofLex]

24

Interesting.

Do you find that you just keep going in circles in LoZ? Or do you keep dying before you can reach areas you haven't explored yet?

 

[ibyea]

This isn't what I said, though. I was specifically criticizing that she gets incapacitated and in need of rescue in every single game she's physically present in. Everything else they've done with her has been pretty good, and I do like that outside of this single problematic element, she has some pretty varied and interesting interpretations.

This. The moment Sheik turned to Zelda in OoT, she got instantly captured. I wish at the very least she would have put up a fight.

 

[Dimmle]

24

Ha, same age. Diff'rent strokes!

I'd like to see a mild LoZ update so more people can enjoy the game.

 

[ibyea]

Interesting.

Do you find that you just keep going in circles in LoZ? Or do you keep dying before you can reach areas you haven't explored yet?

I just keep going around in circles. Well, I die a lot, of course, but that is not the part I mind. I am used to persisting in very hard games.

 

[TheMoon]

Ha, same age. Diff'rent strokes!

I'd like to see a mild LoZ update so more people can enjoy the game.

If only they'd release the BS Zelda 1 remake with SNES sprites...

 

[Branduil]

A Legend of Zelda "Zero Mission" probably wouldn't be a bad idea. I guess that was what BS Zelda was in a way, it would be nice to have that ported to the virtual console.

 

[The Boat]

This isn't what I said, though. I was specifically criticizing that she gets incapacitated and in need of rescue in every single game she's physically present in. Everything else they've done with her has been pretty good, and I do like that outside of this single problematic element, she has some pretty varied and interesting interpretations.

Which is why I didn't quote you

This. The moment Sheik turned to Zelda in OoT, she got instantly captured. I wish at the very least she would have put up a fight.

She got captured because she revealed herself to be Zelda. She still was Zelda during the 7 years she evaded Ganondorf, she just hid it.

I agree with both sides of this argument to an extent. She does have awesome roles in most games but when it comes to the final act, she has had a tendency to fall victim to some form of incapacitation by the antagonist in a lot of the games which is a bit annoying and not really necessary.

I'd like it if they made the final dungeon of a game a co-op dungeon where both Link and Zelda have to work together to get to whoever the final boss is. Let the player control both, for example. Doesn't need to be the gimmick for a whole game, just the final act would be neat.

But she's definitely no Peach who always just goes "oh nooo, Mario" if she's not playable.

The point is that lots of people oversimplify her character to someone who does nothing but get kidnapped, when it's simply not true.
She has been a strong character in most Zeldas since OoT and even fights alongside Link in some final battles, yes she always ends up in trouble, but that doesn't negate what she does before or after that.
Not that it's necessary for her to get kidnapped or in trouble, I wouldn't mind if she didn't of course, they probably do it for tradition's sake and because rescuing a princess helps with the fairy tale vibe.

 

[MoogleWizard]

I feel like my point never really comes across well. I simply believe that the character Zelda is not a story. She is a simple goal. An object. When the game tries to make her important, the story feels awful. You know...like Koizumi said?

"When you think about the whole "save the princess" storyline of games being one of Miyamoto’s inventions, I don’t think of that as a story so much as it is a goal. It’s a way of creating a situation. There’s not necessarily a buildup and a resolution of a deeper kind, like you’d find in a novel. It’s just a situation that motivates the players. Lacking that kind of detailed nuance, that doesn’t mean I’m not interested in a story at all. It’s just that as a designer, my priorities are a little different. I tend to convey emotion in slightly different ways rather than just rely on the most obvious kind of narrative that we would think of when we think of storylines."

I just think it sucks when the story revolves around chasing Zelda. I was basically gagging over the cat and mouse plot Link and Zelda had in SS. It's not a story...it's a piece of crap. I suppose I cannot express enough how terrible I thought the premise to SS was. BUT...it could have been good if it was actually incorporated into the gameplay.



...Well...Just do something else with her. Coming into the series with Sheik was a bad mistake. Watching her devolve back into Peach has been disappointing.

Zelda has never been as much of a damsel as Peach. I think SS did a great job of making Zelda just as important, if not more so, than Link. Also, she isn't a damsel at all in SS, the player and Link go through the game thinking they need to save Zelda and in the end it turns out that Zelda didn't need saving, she hadn't been kidnapped and was taking care of herself the whole time.

The goal and story thing is very tricky when talking about games imo. A game isn't a novel, I think a game needs a goal, an incentive to tell the player why they're doing what they're doing. The story needs a goal, it's a part of it, so to speak.

Sure, much can be improved but in SS Zelda felt like a real character, not like an object. It was a step in the right direction. She was much more fleshed out than in earlier games.

 

[TheMoon]

The point is that lots of people simplify her character to someone who does nothing but get kidnapped, when it's simply not true. She has been a strong character in most Zeldas since OoT and even fights alongside Link in some final battles, yes she always ends up in trouble, but that doesn't negate what she does before or after that.
Not that it's necessary for her to get kidnapped or in trouble, I wouldn't mind if she didn't, they probably do it for tradition's sake and because rescuing a princess helps with the fairy tale vibe.

Yes, so we agree

 

[SweetDonuts]

I just think it sucks when the story revolves around chasing Zelda. I was basically gagging over the cat and mouse plot Link and Zelda had in SS. It's not a story...it's a piece of crap. I suppose I cannot express enough how terrible I thought the premise to SS was.

You learn that Link doesn't have to "chase" Zelda during the middle? of the game, she says it herself about being Hylia and knowing what has to be done. It's hardly a cat and mouse plot.

 

[TheMoon]

Zelda has never been as much of a damsel as Peach. I think SS did a great job of making Zelda just as important, if not more so, than Link. Also, she isn't a damsel at all in SS, the player and Link go through the game thinking they need to save Zelda and in the end it turns out that Zelda didn't need saving, she hadn't been kidnapped and was taking care of herself the whole time.

The goal and story thing is very tricky when talking about games imo. A game isn't a novel, I think a game needs a goal, an incentive to tell the player why they're doing what they're doing. The story needs a goal, so to speak.

Sure, much can be improved but in SS Zelda felt like a real character, not like an object. It was a step in the right direction. She was much more fleshed out than in earlier games.

How cool would it have been if, upon beating SS on Hero Mode, you unlocked a "Zelda's Quest" where you play through her part of the story, basically revisiting the dungeons and areas but requiring different tasks, maybe have it be significantly shorter and have her and Impa find alternate routes that maybe tie back into how Link ends up with the kinds of puzzles he comes across.

 

[The Boat]

Yes, so we agree

I guess so

 

[ibyea]

A thing about me personally, a Zelda game can be pathetically easy but I can like it better than the more difficult Zelda because I just found it a lot more fun. So for me, not being challenging is not a negative I strike for a Zelda game.

 

[MoogleWizard]

How cool would it have been if, upon beating SS on Hero Mode, you unlocked a "Zelda's Quest" where you play through her part of the story, basically revisiting the dungeons and areas but requiring different tasks, maybe have it be significantly shorter and have her and Impa find alternate routes that maybe tie back into how Link ends up with the kinds of puzzles he comes across.

Yeah, that would have been awesome! You get a glimpse of what she and Impa have been up to in the credits. It would have been great to actually play through some of that. Maybe Nintendo will make a Skyward Sword remaster someday and they'll add "Zelda's Quest".

 

[ShockingAlberto]

I am fully willing to admit I just remember SS wrong, but I thought it was that chasing after Zelda was meant to be the wrong thing. You discover she hasn't been taken, she's doing things that need to be done, and all Link has really accomplished in this process was slowing down her pursuers and in some cases leading them directly to her.

Like, the point was "She's not an object to be chased after, she has agency."

Then it turns out Link is also important in the end, because otherwise that would be kind of shitty. But chasing after her is a goal they don't necessarily laud in that game.

 

[The Boat]

I am fully willing to admit I just remember SS wrong, but I thought it was that chasing after Zelda was meant to be the wrong thing. You discover she hasn't been taken, she's doing things that need to be done, and all Link has really accomplished in this process was slowing down her pursuers and in some cases leading them directly to her.

Like, the point was "She's not an object to be chased after, she has agency."

Then it turns out Link is also important in the end, because otherwise that would be kind of shitty. But chasing after her is a goal they don't necessarily laud in that game.

That's precisely what happens.

 

[Cyd0nia]

I don't see how "I keep getting lost" and "the game is too obtuse to get you through the objectives" are synonyms. Maybe you just have no sense of direction? This game was made in a time when people definitely didn't expect to have a real-time map at their fingertips at all times. If you're evaluating it from the perspective that you need a real-time map to find your way, of course you're going to struggle.

But that doesn't make it obtuse; it just means that you don't have the tools you personally want to use to get through it. You know how people got around the problem of getting lost when they played in the 80s? They made maps themselves, and marked where the major landmarks were so they knew which places they'd already been. The creators expected you to be able to wrap your mind around concepts like spatial awareness without the aid of a tool because that's what people had to do back then to get anywhere.

The game doesn't really care which dungeons you do in which order, so all you need to do is find them. In the very few cases where the entrances aren't out in the open, someone somewhere in the world explains how to open them.

If you think it's dumb to have to make these maps yourself, don't worry! You can find them in abundance on the Internet.

See, I don't even need a map. By the 30th minutes you spend trying to find another dungeon, I already know the general layout. By the second hour of playing the game, I get sick of seeing the same area over and over again because for example, one dungeon is located by blowing up a random tree.

The map came with the original cartridge didn't it? Or did I get that in a magazine or something?

A lot of games used to come with physical maps as part of the packaging, that was just how it was done. I do agree with ibyea that some early games were artificially extended to last longer by using obtuse puzzles or secrets though, and LOZ is arguably one of them. It had to reuse assets, save palette space and exploit crafty ideas though, as the full game is less than 100kb on the original cartridge - there are a multitude of images on this very page that probably use more memory.

I think when people talk about its freedom and about its open world attributes, they're talking about how good it was for video games at that point in time and extrapolating what could be done with the same ethos today.

For me, Link to the Past is the gold standard in overworld design. I like my locations to have purpose, and that's my only worry with the new game. There might be a lot of purposeless terrain, purely there to enhance the epic feeling or scope. If that's the case, it really will need its own fast travel mechanisms.

If, as in the first promotional screen, there are villages, and people, monuments, and towers, and wildlife and sidequests to explore and exploit, then it will be a delight. If its just a big map, I'd be kind of disappointed.

 

[ibyea]

The map came with the original cartridge didn't it? Or did I get that in a magazine or something?

A lot of games used to come with physical maps as part of the packaging, that was just how it was done. I do agree with ibyea that some early games were artificially extended to last longer by using obtuse puzzles or secrets though, and LOZ is arguably one of them. It had to reuse assets, save palette space and exploit crafty ideas though, as the full game is less than 100kb on the original cartridge - there are a multitude of images on this very page that probably use more memory.

I think when people talk about its freedom and about its open world attributes, they're talking about how good it was for video games at that point in time and extrapolating what could be done with the same ethos today.

For me, Link to the Past is the gold standard in overworld design. I like my locations to have purpose, and that's my only worry with the new game. There might be a lot of purposeless terrain, purely there to enhance the epic feeling or scope. If that's the case, it really will need its own fast travel mechanisms.

If, as in the first promotional screen, there are villages, and people, monuments, and towers, and wildlife and sidequests to explore and exploit, then it will be a delight. If its just a big map, I'd be kind of disappointed.

Yeah, I love ALttP, LA, and Oracle games overworlds. ALttP was still a bit too obtuse for my taste at parts, but not nearly on the same level. Plus, it was extremely fun to navigate because of the level of details that older games couldn't have due to their limitations.

 

[LegendofLex]

I am fully willing to admit I just remember SS wrong, but I thought it was that chasing after Zelda was meant to be the wrong thing. You discover she hasn't been taken, she's doing things that need to be done, and all Link has really accomplished in this process was slowing down her pursuers and in some cases leading them directly to her.

Here's the plot of SS:

- Link and Zelda are childhood friends. Zelda is implied to have a crush on Link.
- Zelda gets sucked down to the surface. Link decides to go down to the surface to find her.
- An old lady tells Link that Zelda went to the temple in the woods. Link goes into the woods to find her.
- Link arrives at the temple in the woods and finds out that Zelda somehow magically teleported out of there to head to another temple at the mountain. Link goes to the mountain to find her.
- Link arrives at the temple at the mountain and finds Zelda with Impa. Zelda then magically teleports out of there to head to the Temple of Time in the desert. Link goes to the desert to find her.
- Zelda enters the Gate of Time, and tells Link to find the other Gate of Time to come after her.
- Link reforges the Master Sword so he can open the other Gate of Time so he can go to the past to find Zelda.
- Link goes to the past to find Zelda, but Zelda says that she has to go to sleep to keep Demise sealed. Link goes to the present to get the Triforce to kill Demise so Zelda no longer has to keep him sealed.
- Link gets the Triforce and kills Demise, allowing Zelda to wake up. Then Ghirahim kidnaps Zelda and takes her to the past again. Link follows Ghirahim into the past to save her.
- In the end of the game, Link has decided to live with Zelda on the surface to help her protect the Triforce.
- That this is the first game in the series only drives home that the Link-Zelda reincarnation cycle is really just the continuation of a long chain of events involving Link having to save Zelda.

Literally everything you do from a broad plot perspective is directly related to going after/awakening/saving/helping Zelda in some capacity. And at literally every moment in the story, you are encouraged (by her or by Fi) to keep following her.

Not to mention that she definitely doesn't have any "agency" since her entire role in this game is to become a person who is not herself and fulfill events that were set in stone thousands of years ago.