Support NeoGAF

[Yoshi]

Could you give an example of catcalling that you don't believe is sexual harassment?

Saying "Hey Lady" and "you look great" to a stranger qualifies as catcalling according to your initial post, but I don't think they qualify as sexual harassment in isolation, without additional context it is embedded into (like other actions, follow-up actions, a disrespective tone and so on).

 

[Boem]

And people thought this thread would be nothing but an echo chamber because Gaf is supposedly full of reasonable people who wouldn't try to argue that catcalling is sometimes okay.

After all these years we should have known there's a defense force for everything, no matter how ludicrous.

 

[Stallion Dan]

You're not putting up any good arguments for why men should be allowed to just talk to women.

Because we're human beings????? Jesus.

 

[Aizen.S.Kennedy]

Because we're human beings????? Jesus.

Lol that statement made me lose it too.

 

[Subpar Spatula]

Saying "Hey Lady" and "you look great" to a stranger qualifies as catcalling according to your initial post, but I don't think they qualify as sexual harassment in isolation, without additional context it is embedded into (like other actions, follow-up actions, a disrespective tone and so on).

I think the reason for why you say that to women is context enough. Do you say this to every woman? Do you compliment guys? Naw. My best guess is you're selecting women you find attractive enough to sleep with.

It's similar to the very benign "hi" people say, I'll give you some insight: these dudes aren't saying hi to everyone.

Because we're human beings????? Jesus.

But hey... ignore the entire context of the post. WIN WIN amirite guyz!

 

[Funyarinpa]

I hope I've never nonchalantly done this to anyone...

Sounds so messed up.

 

[andymcc]

It's basic human interaction.

"Excuse me Sir, do you have the time?"

"No"
"Fuck off"
'No response'

The reaction should be to move on, not to keep asking, or following, or harassing.


What you want is for no interactions from strangers in public, ever. That is never gonna happen, people are generally social by nature.

I'm sure when a large vehicle filled with random dudes slows down to a crawl to match the speed of a pedestrian woman, she's just thinking "I better just say no to this social interaction" rather than feeling actual fear and anxiety.

 

[The Salt Life]

Can I know what is allowed if someone see's some they are attracted to and will probably never see again.

How are they supposed to show iniative if all attention is unwelcome. I mean our parents and their parents before them were all strangers at one point until someone showed someone attention. Whether it be a joke, a compliment, etc etc.

What is the norm in today's society? I met my girl by simply approaching her and saying something silly that made her giggle. I didn't say anything vulgar or sexual, but it looks like some people are saying you shouldn't even do that?

 

[pashmilla]

Can I know what is allowed if someone see's some they are attracted to and will probably never see again.

How are they supposed to show iniative if all attention is unwelcome. I mean our parents and their parents before them were all strangers at one point until someone showed someone attention. Whether it be a joke, a compliment, etc etc.

What is the norm in today's society? I met my girl by simply approaching her and saying something silly that made her giggle. I didn't say anything vulgar or sexual, but it looks like some people are saying you shouldn't even do that?

There's a world of difference between going up to a girl and telling her a joke and yelling lewd things at her across the street.

 

[hydrophilic attack]

i asked someone out on the bus once based on looks only, but she had initiated extended ocular copulation on two separate bus trips so i felt pretty confident she'd go on a date, which she did

so was i out of line here

didn't know you were into oculolinctus

hey don't judge

This reads like some Walking Dead Eugene shit

i'm not sure what this means as i haven't watched the show

 

[besada]

There's nothing wrong with striking up conversation with a stranger. You say, "excuse me" to acknowledge that you're interrupting them, and then commence to talk. It involves eye contact and a return of vocalization.

That is not catcalling. If you're discussing the above, please go elsewhere, because this is a thread about catcalling.

In short, get back on topic and take the questions about remedial communication with other humans somewhere else.

 

[bananafactory]

Edit: nvm, discussion veered off.

 

[Aizen.S.Kennedy]

There's a world of difference between going up to a girl and telling her a joke and yelling lewd things at her across the street.

What about yelling for them to wait up. Then going over to start a convo? No lewd language involved.

 

[SpacedCadette]

Here are 2 quotes given by OP, tell me which ones you'd class as sexually harrassing her;

"heyy lady!!"
"smile, you're pretty"

It's the context. I'm just trying to go to work. Why are you yelling at me and trying to get my attention? It's weird.

It's also worth keeping in mind that some women have had bad interactions when ignoring a random guy yelling at them on the street so the catcalling often makes you feel stressed out by default. I've been on the bus with earbuds in and had them ripped out of my ears because some guy was trying to get my attention and I just didn't realize it. He was pissed that I didn't acknowledge him. I've been grabbed on the bus, recorded on someones phone, had someone try to grab between my legs when passing me at a crosswalk, and dozens of comments about my breasts or any other body part. I don't really owe it to anyone anymore to be nice about being yelled at on the street.

And to be clear. We know when someone is being genuinely nice and not a creep. I've had compliments on hair, glasses, or clothing from a guy on the street and had it be a positive experience. It's the "HEY GURL!" shouting or lewd comments that aren't wanted. Just look at it like this. If you wouldn't compliment a guy on it then don't compliment me about it on the street.

 

[Soph]

It's similar to the very benign "hi" people say, I'll give you some insight: these dudes aren't saying hi to everyone.

Kind of sad these "hi" dudes do get far more attention though, but that's indicative of the human disease.

 

[The Salt Life]

There's a world of difference between going up to a girl and telling her a joke and yelling lewd things at her across the street.

Nvm my response was a bit off topic and just saw Besada post.

 

[Shake Appeal]

It is totally okay to be attracted to a stranger, to strike up a conversation, read social cues as to whether she is comfortable in the conversation, learn a thing or two about one another if she's willing to open up, and then politely ask her if she would like to go out some time. Maybe offer your number instead of demanding hers, so she doesn't feel obliged to reciprocate your interest. And respect her decision.

No one is saying two strangers can't talk to one another and become friends—or more! Just don't be a dick, don't be pushy, don't predicate it on her looks or sex appeal, don't make it loud and public, and really do try to learn about one another as equals. Above all, back off if she's uncomfortable.

(That said, I've always thought it's shitty to put someone who's at work on the spot when they're required to be polite to strangers as part of their job and they can't easily retreat.)

 

[Dio]

It is totally okay to be attracted to a stranger, to strike up a conversation, read social cues as to whether she is comfortable in the conversation, learn a thing or two about one another if she's willing to open up, and then politely ask her if she would like to go out some time. Maybe offer your number instead of demanding hers, so she doesn't feel obliged to reciprocate your interest. And respect her decision.

No one is saying two strangers can't talk to one another and become friends—or more! Just don't be a dick, don't be pushy, don't predicate it on her looks or sex appeal, don't make it loud and public, and really do try to learn about one another as equals. Above all, back off if she's uncomfortable.

(That said, I've always thought it's shitty to put someone who's at work on the spot when they're required to be polite to strangers as part of their job and they can't easily retreat.)

Yeah, some people in this thread seem to be conflating every 'hi' as being exactly the same. Context matters.

There is a difference between sitting next to someone on the bus or on a bench and saying a friendly 'hi,' and seeing a girl with earphones walking down the street, standing up off the sidewalk, and running up saying 'hi' and trying to get their attention, or loudly shouting 'hey there' while they've clearly got somewhere to be or have said headphones in.

What about yelling for them to wait up. Then going over to start a convo? No lewd language involved

Oh jesus christ. As a guy, I would already be on guard against this random person running at me trying to get my attention. I couldn't imagine all the things going through a woman's mind in the same situation. I would probably be thinking 'where's my fucking mace' first thing.

 

[Makonero]

What about yelling for them to wait up. Then going over to start a convo? No lewd language involved.

why would you ever yell at a stranger? "hey girl hey wait up" is just rude. i'm a dude and i hate people trying to talk to me when i'm walking on the street, i just want to be left alone.

 

[Addi]

And people thought this thread would be nothing but an echo chamber because Gaf is supposedly full of reasonable people who wouldn't try to argue that catcalling is sometimes okay.

After all these years we should have known there's a defense force for everything, no matter how ludicrous.

The sad thing about defence forces is that they often consist of people who can't detach themselves personally from a topic or argument and take everything personally.
Catcalling is bad -> So it's sexual harassment when I talk to a girl in my class now?
#Oscarssowhite -> oh, I'm also white, you are attacking me, this is reverse racism

 

[Aizen.S.Kennedy]

why would you ever yell at a stranger? "hey girl hey wait up" is just rude. i'm a dude and i hate people trying to talk to me when i'm walking on the street, i just want to be left alone.

Well I'm not gunna break out in a run to go up to someone. Ok that's you everyone doesn't hate people trying to talk to them. Some people welcome human interaction more then others.
I agree that lewd words are a no no tho. No need for all that.

 

[Boem]

The sad thing about defence forces is that they often consist of people who can't detach themselves personally from a topic or argument and take everything personally.
Catcalling is bad -> So it's sexual harassment when I talk to a girl in my class now?
#Oscarssowhite -> oh, I'm also white, you are attacking me, this is reverse racism

Yeah very soon it devolves into an argument where people are sticking to their starting statement and refuse to let go, no matter how much common sense and logic is thrown at them. I keep referring to it as the rule of Not Being Wrong On The Internet™. There's no greater disgrace, apparently. No matter how weird the original claim. And you only dig yourself deeper and deeper and end up sounding like a weird extremist because admitting 'defeat' is even worse.

That's how this discussion went from 'catcalling is creepy' to 'so wait, flirting with a girl in a bar is creepy now, you basement-dwellers!?'.

 

[SpacedCadette]

Well I'm not gunna break out in a run to go up to someone. Ok that's you everyone doesn't hate people trying to talk to them. Some people welcome human interaction more then others.

I enjoy human interaction. I actually liked my walk to work 80% of the time because I enjoy meeting and just having pleasantries with other people. But being yelled at is weird. If I didn't drop something I really don't want you yelling "HEY! WAIT UP!" at me.

I promise you I wouldn't want to talk to you if you did that. No one wants to be yelled at.

 

[AnAnole]

I think the reason for why you say that to women is context enough. Do you say this to every woman? Do you compliment guys? Naw. My best guess is you're selecting women you find attractive enough to sleep with.

It's similar to the very benign "hi" people say, I'll give you some insight: these dudes aren't saying hi to everyone.



But hey... ignore the entire context of the post. WIN WIN amirite guyz!

Holy shit dudes are showing interest in girls they find attractive, what planet am I on

 

[Glass Shark]

I can't fathom the kind of person who thinks catcalling is okay. I'm fortunate enough to not know anyone like this in real life. It is absolutely sexual harassment and it's abhorrent. Shamefully I had no idea how common it was for women to experience this until I saw YouTube videos documenting it. If I ever have the misfortune of witnessing it happen in person some dude is gonna have hell to pay.

 

[Dio]

Well I'm not gunna break out in a run to go up to someone. Ok that's you everyone doesn't hate people trying to talk to them. Some people welcome human interaction more then others.

Maybe I'm a goddamn weirdo for wondering if the person who just walked up to me yelling for my attention (and is a total stranger) is a psycho, is trying to rob me, is a swindler, is going to beat me up/stab me/shoot me, et cetera. It must be a lot worse if you're not male, and generally is from what I've seen women say about it.

 

[Krauser Kat]

Sure, I agree, but it does happen, so what im asking you is:

What do you think the best possible response can be for when it does happen

What is the best thing to do to see that it never happens again?

I would imagine the response for the latter is trying to educate men on how it feels for a woman to be catcalled, right? Like the new york video, things like that?

As a guy. Act like the dude just cat called you and deny his ass.

What is the over under that someone who enjoys cat calling is all homophobic.

 

[Aizen.S.Kennedy]

I enjoy human interaction. I actually liked my walk to work 80% of the time because I enjoy meeting and just having pleasantries with other people. But being yelled at is weird. If I didn't drop something I really don't want you yelling "HEY! WAIT UP!" at me.

I promise you I wouldn't want to talk to you if you did that. No one wants to be yelled at.

No one? Or you? This is what I'm not understanding itt people who keep using their own personal experiences as absolute truth while dismissing others experiences as just a small minority. I've personally met lots of people by sayin hey wait up then going over to talk. I've done it in NC/VA/ Las Vegas/Kansas/ Washington D.C. It works pretty well. Do those women experiences not count. Not saying that is the universal result or feeling just saying it is an actual result for some. If something is ok with both parties then i see no harm done. It's knowing when how and who that's tricky for some people I guess.

 

[Sabercrusader]

Honestly never felt a need to do it and I would be too shy to do it anyways. Don't really hang out with friends that do it either. Honestly I can't imagine how it would feel for that to happen on a very consistent basis. Besides that, most of the time I've ever seen it, the guy walks away, which basically makes me ask why they're doing it in the first place if they aren't going to talk to her? And if you're going to talk with her, you should probably not be an asshole about it. My two cents anyways.

 

[Makonero]

Maybe I'm a goddamn weirdo for wondering if the person who just walked up to me yelling for my attention (and is a total stranger) is a psycho, is trying to rob me, is a swindler, is going to beat me up/stab me/shoot me, et cetera. It must be a lot worse if you're not male, and generally is from what I've seen women say about it.

yeeeeeppppp

it's why i have headphones on and just glide past everyone. i'm on my commute, it's my me time, leave me the fuck alone

I still have people try to talk to me and tell me about their grandma whose sick and needs money and oh do i have any to spare please she's starving and in a coma and we can't afford band-aids

 

[Ernest]

I remember going out to lunch back when I was a teenager (we're talking late '80s), with a couple female friends - the were in the front of the car, I was in the back. They got catcalled by passing cars, and me, who had never seen or heard that sort of thing before (outside of movies/TV shows), I was all "what the fuck was that? How disrespectful! Aren't you going to tell them to fuck off and eat shit?" And they were all, "Honey, if we did that every time we got catcalled, we'd be stooping to their level of inappropriateness - best to shrug it off.'

That was a nice learning moment for me.

 

[Trey]

Oh I know some dickhead will probably come in and defend it. I'm curious to see how they'll try.

No one will try because in our society men aren't punished for it, therefore the ones who catcall generally don't have to make excuses for themselves. Why defend yourself when the vast majority of the time no one challenges your foolishness?

 

[Boem]

No one will try because in our society men aren't punished for it, therefore the ones who catcall generally don't have to make excuses for themselves. Why defend yourself when the vast majority of the time no one challenges your foolishness?

There certainly have been enough people in here arguing what does and what doesn't constitute cat calling and how violated or threatened women are allowed to feel about that.

It's been one of those threads.

 

[John Blade]

I always wonder what is the best way to go up to a lady and just want to tell them how beautiful they look today (whether it's her look or dress, or whatever) without making it feel odd and weird for random stranger came up to you. As I read the post here, it look like it won't be as easy as it sound as most people want to go on with they life without someone disturb them getting to their destination.

Catcalling isn't the best way and I guess we see it too many time when we're young and think it's okay (you can blame it a bit on cartoon which you see quite a bit of it there when I was young lad).

Sigh...I guess this is why you see more people taking pics of beautiful girl walking by and post it online for people to see and talk how beautiful she is which is another weird thing to discuss here as it's kinda wrong to do it.

 

[Ernest]

I always wonder what is the best way to go up to a lady and just want to tell them how beautiful they look today (whether it's her look or dress, or whatever) without making it feel odd and weird for random stranger came up to you. As I read the post here, it look like it won't be as easy as it sound as most people want to go on with they life without someone disturb them getting to their destination.

Catcalling isn't the best way and I guess we see it too many time when we're young and think it's okay (you can blame it a bit on cartoon which you see quite a bit of it there when I was young lad).

Sigh...I guess this is why you see more people taking pics of beautiful girl walking by and post it online for people to see and talk how beautiful she is which is another weird thing to discuss here as it's kinda wrong to do it.

You can, but it's a delicate balance.

I've had random women compliment me ("you smell nice", "cool shoes", etc), but they were quick, non-creepy, and they certainly weren't about wanting to date me or something (which most guys would assume). Also, it's just a different dynamic when a women compliments a man rather than the other way around. As it's more likely the man will have an ulterior motive that the woman won't have. Not saying it doesn't happen, but just less likely.

 

[gaiages]

Well I'm not gunna break out in a run to go up to someone. Ok that's you everyone doesn't hate people trying to talk to them. Some people welcome human interaction more then others.
I agree that lewd words are a no no tho. No need for all that.

Yelling after anyone in the street is pretty rude and kind of threatening, even. Man or woman.

If you're that far away maybe it's not the right time to talk to someone.

 

[NoctisVsStar]

I always wonder what is the best way to go up to a lady and just want to tell them how beautiful they look today (whether it's her look or dress, or whatever) without making it feel odd and weird for random stranger came up to you. As I read the post here, it look like it won't be as easy as it sound as most people want to go on with they life without someone disturb them getting to their destination.

Catcalling isn't the best way and I guess we see it too many time when we're young and think it's okay (you can blame it a bit on cartoon which you see quite a bit of it there when I was young lad).

Sigh...I guess this is why you see more people taking pics of beautiful girl walking by and post it online for people to see and talk how beautiful she is which is another weird thing to discuss here as it's kinda wrong to do it.

It varies, certain women don't know how to take a compliment. Then you have moments where you're being polite and they start thinking " this is mad skeptical what does he want?" Granted I'm speaking from a New Yorker point of view where everyone is on the defensive.

 

[AnathemicOne]

I always wonder what is the best way to go up to a lady and just want to tell them how beautiful they look today (whether it's her look or dress, or whatever) without making it feel odd and weird for random stranger came up to you. As I read the post here, it look like it won't be as easy as it sound as most people want to go on with they life without someone disturb them getting to their destination.

Catcalling isn't the best way and I guess we see it too many time when we're young and think it's okay (you can blame it a bit on cartoon which you see quite a bit of it there when I was young lad).

Sigh...I guess this is why you see more people taking pics of beautiful girl walking by and post it online for people to see and talk how beautiful she is which is another weird thing to discuss here as it's kinda wrong to do it.

Not going to touch the taking pictures crap.

But really it's all about context, social cues, and ultimately treating women as equals. People have varying levels of sociability but for me, as a guy, when I'm walking from point A to point B on the street I generally don't want people interrupting me nor do I think the public street is an ideal place for striking up conversation with random strangers.

 

[TimeEffect]

I always wonder what is the best way to go up to a lady and just want to tell them how beautiful they look today (whether it's her look or dress, or whatever) without making it feel odd and weird for random stranger came up to you. As I read the post here, it look like it won't be as easy as it sound as most people want to go on with they life without someone disturb them getting to their destination.

Catcalling isn't the best way and I guess we see it too many time when we're young and think it's okay (you can blame it a bit on cartoon which you see quite a bit of it there when I was young lad).

Sigh...I guess this is why you see more people taking pics of beautiful girl walking by and post it online for people to see and talk how beautiful she is which is another weird thing to discuss here as it's kinda wrong to do it.

I dont understand, why would you want to go up to a woman to say she looks beautiful randomly?

 

[SpacedCadette]

No one? Or you? This is what I'm not understanding itt people who keep using their own personal experiences as absolute truth while dismissing others experiences as just a small minority. I've personally met lots of people by sayin hey wait up then going over to talk. I've done it in NC/VA/ Las Vegas/Kansas/ Washington D.C. It works pretty well. Do those women experiences not count. Not saying that is the universal result or feeling just saying it is an actual result for some. If something is ok with both parties then i see no harm done. It's knowing when how and who that's tricky for some people I guess.

For what it's worth I'm not the only one in this thread saying they wouldn't like this. If it's worked in the past for you then hey... you do you. Just keep in mind what others have said in this thread. If the social cues you're getting are welcoming to the interaction then I suppose I can't argue with that.

 

[LAM09]

It's not something I would ever do.

 

[blame space]

you should have to get a license to talk to other people in public

 

[Mighty Chin]

I did it as a teenager. Then I grew up.

 

[N.Domixis]

I've never understood why guys do it? You're just highlighting to the world that you're a dickhead.

Cartoons used to do this a lot so maybe there?
I never did it when I was younger was to embarrassed to even talk to girls back then.

 

[Laevateinn]

you should have to get a license to talk to other people in public

If you get banned from GAF, you should be banned from normal human interaction as well.

 

[WaffleTaco]

I always wonder what is the best way to go up to a lady and just want to tell them how beautiful they look today (whether it's her look or dress, or whatever) without making it feel odd and weird for random stranger came up to you. As I read the post here, it look like it won't be as easy as it sound as most people want to go on with they life without someone disturb them getting to their destination.

Catcalling isn't the best way and I guess we see it too many time when we're young and think it's okay (you can blame it a bit on cartoon which you see quite a bit of it there when I was young lad).

Sigh...I guess this is why you see more people taking pics of beautiful girl walking by and post it online for people to see and talk how beautiful she is which is another weird thing to discuss here as it's kinda wrong to do it.

...You wouldn't do that ever, unless you were asking her on a date. Like what?

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

Kind of sad these "hi" dudes do get far more attention though, but that's indicative of the human disease.

What is happening right here?

 

[Samara]

I dont understand, why would you want to go up to a woman to say she looks beautiful randomly?

Sometimes, I look at someone and if they catch me, I''l tell them: You have great XYZ. or ''You have this great aura about you. Have a nice day. ''

I have no intention of dating them, and that is for men or women.

 

[Mr. X]

Seeing it working retail when guys walk by some of the employees is really weird tbh.

 

[kinoki]

I always wonder what is the best way to go up to a lady and just want to tell them how beautiful they look today (whether it's her look or dress, or whatever) without making it feel odd and weird for random stranger came up to you. As I read the post here, it look like it won't be as easy as it sound as most people want to go on with they life without someone disturb them getting to their destination.

Catcalling isn't the best way and I guess we see it too many time when we're young and think it's okay (you can blame it a bit on cartoon which you see quite a bit of it there when I was young lad).

Sigh...I guess this is why you see more people taking pics of beautiful girl walking by and post it online for people to see and talk how beautiful she is which is another weird thing to discuss here as it's kinda wrong to do it.

Read the book: The Beauty Myth.

Also, why do you feel the need to comment on something as superficial as her looks? Talk to her first. Get to know her. That beauty is the defining feature of a women needs to be eradicated.