Thoughtful discussion? There is no such thing to be had here when people think that a "hey lady" counts as sexual harassment. Touching a strange woman is sexual harassment, following her and constantly talking to her is harassment, walking by her saying "hey lady" is not sexual harassment, regardless of how you feel.
Let's talk about catcalling
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Thoughtful discussion? There is no such thing to be had here when people think that a "hey lady" counts as sexual harassment. Touching a strange woman is sexual harassment, following her and constantly talking to her is harassment, walking by her saying "hey lady" is not sexual harassment, regardless of how you feel.
But it's not unwanted sexual attention, which is what we're discussing.
Someone shouting that you are beautiful, or making a joke to smile more, is not sexual, or obscene in any way. I might agree that it's harrassment, but it is in no way, sexual harrassment.
Obviously sexually explicit catcalling is the worst, but the one I don't really get is telling people to smile. Like, that's one everyone should understand is shitty because we've all had days where bad shit is happening and the ability to smile seems like a fairytale. Its already shitty to tell anyone to smile because you don't know what they are going through. Tack on a "because you are pretty" saying it to a woman and grats, you doubled your shit quotient for the day.
NegroNinja
Member
This is a perfect example of catcalling and why it's harassment.
https://youtu.be/kTFZyl7hfBw
https://youtu.be/kTFZyl7hfBw
Wolfgunblood Garopa
Member
The women in my life recount tales of catcallers from 5, 10 years ago and are still pissed off about it. I would be too.
ClosingADoor
Member
Except you know, that it is. Creating a hostile environment by making sexual advances is sexual harassment.
You are ignoring the context. How can some stranger walking up to you in the street telling you you are pretty not be sexual. They don't know you, they are judging you on your appearance and comment on it.
4 is a cutie
Banned
That comic is infamous for a reason...
superNESjoe
Member
Playing devil's advocate I guess but I think blanket statements that "X is definitively offensive" is kind of harmful. In my own experience both my wife and female friends have been offended or disgusted by catcalling, but they've also been legitimately flattered by polite compliments.
The notion that suddenly a woman doesn't like to be told they're pretty just isn't 100% true for all women, and the OP seems to be suggesting just that.
I have told women they were pretty before with zero intention of harassing or bothering them any further. One of my longest running female friendships started simply because I walked up to her and told her I thought she was very pretty, complimented her style, and then told her to have a good day. She ended up tracking me down and we became friends. It made her feel good, not harassed.
Is that different than more aggressive "catcalling"? Sure, but my point is that the OP was pretty aggressive in stating that its offensive to tell a woman they are attractive, period. That it reinforces the notion that looks are all that matters. I'm just saying that isn't 100% the case, and sometimes a person likes to be told they are attractive, if compliment seems sincere and isn't aggressively delivered.
Context is important, every person and situation is different. Depending on who you ask, what I've done and compliments my wife have gotten could be considered a form of catcalling and offensive to some, but they are flattering to others.
The key is to just be respectful people.
The notion that suddenly a woman doesn't like to be told they're pretty just isn't 100% true for all women, and the OP seems to be suggesting just that.
I have told women they were pretty before with zero intention of harassing or bothering them any further. One of my longest running female friendships started simply because I walked up to her and told her I thought she was very pretty, complimented her style, and then told her to have a good day. She ended up tracking me down and we became friends. It made her feel good, not harassed.
Is that different than more aggressive "catcalling"? Sure, but my point is that the OP was pretty aggressive in stating that its offensive to tell a woman they are attractive, period. That it reinforces the notion that looks are all that matters. I'm just saying that isn't 100% the case, and sometimes a person likes to be told they are attractive, if compliment seems sincere and isn't aggressively delivered.
Context is important, every person and situation is different. Depending on who you ask, what I've done and compliments my wife have gotten could be considered a form of catcalling and offensive to some, but they are flattering to others.
The key is to just be respectful people.
If you're doing it because of your sexual urges, then yeah it is. You're bothering someone for no reason except to sexualize their very presence.
Harassment is more about intent rather than just the degree of your abrasiveness. It doesn't matter if you're whooping at a woman from a distance or walking by and groping her ass, they are both unwanted advances/gestures of a sexual nature.
RichiRamjag
Member
I agree. I don't catcall and my son won't catcall (if he takes his example from me), but I never thought of it as overt sexual harassment. Some people can take it that route and a lot don't. Just asked my wife and she said it's rude and immature, but she doesn't really consider it sexual harassment.
I'd suggest people refrain from doing so anyhow. I'm not really a politically correct person, but if I'm going to talk to a woman, I'd rather come at her straight rather than be a chode about it and shout some nonsense at her. Then again, my mother raised me in my youth and she wasn't having any of that. I still remember when she smacked the shit out of me in front of my friends for yelling "bump and grind" during a match of Street Fighter II: Turbo.
So you've taken it upon yourself to decree how woman should feel about that sort of behavior, and how unsafe and violated they're allowed to feel after that? Simply because you lack the empathy to put yourself in their shoes we should all take your weird judgment seriously?
So you're one of those guys huh. You're a true paragon of justice buddy.
Personally, I'm going with the experiences of what kind of effect that has as told by women themselves on matters like this, over some guy getting angry behind a keyboard who's taken it upon himself to decide what women should or shouldn't feel is (sexually) invasive. The fact that you have the balls to do this in a thread where women themselves shared their experiences is baffling.
Well, to be fair, if you're saying "ayyyy yo me lemme get your number" what are you actually implying? You don't know that person's character or personality, so you're - once again - objectifying her because of her looks. Let's not kid ourselves and assume you want to call them to have a deep and meaningful conversation with them on the phone.
But while we're at "what would you consider acceptable random 'compliments'"
How do you guys feel about "yo, love your style!" "them's some sweet shades!" "hey, awesome sneakers!" or non objectifying stuff like that? - no creepy followup, no agenda, just smile, maybe point, compliment.
I do feel that might actually brighten someone's day because it's not intrusive or objectifying - don't think i've said that to any woman yet, though, but maybe to a few random dudes who had particularly sweet shades, sneakers or overall styles. :/
Well, ask yourself - would you say "hey lady" to a woman in the street you didn't find attractive?
Cat calling by definition is making a comment where the woman can't respond. Like from a moving vehicle. In my head, cat calling is always wrong because of the "drive by nature." No one ever got a date from cat calling. Cat calling is one sided while flirting obviously does not have to be.
Like the David Cross bit about seeing a garbage man catcalling from the back of the truck as it rolled down the street
"I might get 99 nos, but maybe that hundredth girl likes to fuck on a pile of trash."
no
People judge you on your appearance and comment on it all the time. What if both are in a pub/bar/club and the guy says "hey lady" a pick-up line or whatever, then you wouldn't call that sexual harassment.
They can feel whatever the fuck they want, but declaring that x or y is sexual harassment in general isn't the right thing either. OP said that catcalling in general is sexual harassment, I disagree.
aye, it's not flirting, because with flirting, first you need to be engaged in a 2-way conversation, then you can start being flirtatious within that conversation.
It isn't forbidden to approach a random stranger and start a conversation and see if they want to engage with you, just don't skip the first 20 steps of normal social behaviour and jump straight to "yo dat some fine ass whatup"
Probably not no. But that's like the opposite of cat calling. So not sure what your argument is.
A. Construction worker whistles and yells "Looking good!" to a woman walking down the street
B. Guy says "hey lady" a pick-up line or whatever
Those are different.
I think there is a reason why we are seeing all these extreme right wing backlash lately and that is due to the strong push for progression. As an African migrant, I am aware of a lot of things that affect me which others wont understand but I think what I have learnt is that, it is important to help them understand, empathise and fully grasp where I am coming from without feeling threatening. There is always this notion of 'wanting to take away their toys', you know that entitlement they have always enjoyed that they barely even see as entitlement. I think Gaf as well finds it hard to create a conversation where right wing people can learn and left wing people can learn so that there is a common understanding of where both sides are coming from. At the moment, this thread is very one note and all the answers will only flow in one direction without much room for mistakes, forth and back that can actually stimulate growth that I suspect the OP desires
Already posted? http://imgur.com/gallery/vtsuN
There are plenty of ways to show interest in someone of the opposite sex in the right time and place without sexual harassment. You know you could....*gasp* treat them like a human being.
psychowave
Member
I hope no one seriously thinks "hey lady" is a good pickup line, btw.
The Albatross
Member
I've never cat called with the intention of being heard, at least in my memory.
Though very often in my life I see someone and say to myself something like, "God..damn.."
Though very often in my life I see someone and say to myself something like, "God..damn.."
Well, because you expect that their looks is the only thing they should care about. Second of all, you don't even know why they aren't smiling. They may have just lost a loved one. Can you imagine being upset over something like that and some one tells you to smile cause you are pretty?!!!!
Also, just ask yourself this, would you tell a guy the same thing? Sounds a little ridiculous. Now ask yourself why that is.
sexual harassment
But that scenario isn't catcalling. The only way you can make your theory that catcalling isn't necesarilly sexual harassment make sense is by twisting it so much that it's not catcalling anymore.
Look at the Oxford English Dictionary:
That's the official definition of the word. It's sexual harassment by definition - you're stating otherwise and proclaiming it as fact, while it's your own personal (weirdly twisted) opinion.
'They can feel whatever the fuck they want', Jesus Christ man, it's time to take a couple of steps back and think about what you're saying. You're in a thread with women sharing stories of how they felt violated after experiences like that, and you're in here with statements like that, and deciding for them how their own emotional reaction is allowed to be experienced as sexually invasive in your holy (again, not factual) judgment.
What are you even doing at this point?
Well obviously there is, and you just described it. It's not something that only happens to women. It just happens to them more often.
Do people here consider complimenting a stranger catcalling? Since if so that's kinda messed up. I mean i completely understand that it's not at all ok to yell sexual shit at randoms but personally as a man, i have always been super flattered be it a man or woman who comes up and compliments me out of the blue. Sure it was a bit weird when a gay guy came up to me and told me that i melted his heart and the ran away giggling but it was still flattering even if weird.
The reason why i'm asking this is because i was a bit confused at the "hey girl" thing in this thread.
The reason why i'm asking this is because i was a bit confused at the "hey girl" thing in this thread.
Yoshi
Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
What exactly entails catcalling? In the op, I see very different behaviour, like "Hey lady" on the one hand and some comments about the visibility of details of the physical shape of the breast on the other hand. Which I think are wildly different things. I cannot see how greating someone, even if unknown to you, or even saying something positive (in a nice & friendly way) about someone's look is harassment. Even if someone does not want to hear either, I just don't see how this violates someone's feelings. I am not one to approach strangers, but that's just who I am, other people have a different mindset and when someone approaches me and greats me or even comments (in a tactful way) about my body, I cannot see this as an insult or an assault in any way. I would definitely ask for more differentiation between strange / maybe awkward behaviour and insults / harassment.
HarryKS
Member
Tezzeractor
Member
Even in Loony Tunes or Hana Barbara, wolf whistles were usually met with disgust. That actually got the idea that it was harassment across to me at a young age.
I completely agree. But I'm a dude and have never experienced it. I've never done it and never will. Every time I hear or see it, it makes me embarrassed to be a male too.
Well actually I have gotten random compliments before but have always been flattered and only slightly weirded out before moving on. I know girls get a much wider range of strange people trying to talk to them though so it must be difficult to differentiate someone wanting to just be nice or stalking them like an animal.
Well actually I have gotten random compliments before but have always been flattered and only slightly weirded out before moving on. I know girls get a much wider range of strange people trying to talk to them though so it must be difficult to differentiate someone wanting to just be nice or stalking them like an animal.
Principate
Saint Titanfall
Yeah that is most definitely sexual harassment and any such similar.
HideyoshiJP
Member
I feel like catcalling has always been the mark of an asshole, even before it was recognized as sexual harassment.
Airola
Member
They all learned from the best.
Wait, what, huh, what? How's that... how that... who would... why anyone... how anyone... what?
Wait, what, huh, what? How's that... how that... who would... why anyone... how anyone... what?
I run hot. It was November, I was wearing a top and a cardigan. Some guy rode past me on a bike and yelled AIN'T YA TITTIES COLD LUV. It was wonderful.
Yoshi
Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
Not meant to make fun of you, sorry, if it comes off the wrong way, but I had to smile upon the thought that this:
is a photo of one such incident
.WeAreStarStuff
Member
I'm a 33 year old male and I've never understood catcalling. On what Earth do guys think this makes them look attractive to a woman? I think some of it is is social with them trying to impress their peers, but as far as trying to pick up someone it just seems silly to me. Every woman I've ever dated (including my fiance soon to be wife) I've asked out like a normal person. I can't recall ever catcalling in my entire life; it's so dumb. My fiance is half Peruvian and has told me that guys down there will hiss to catcall; I can't even fathom this.
Chuckie
Member
They all learned from the best.
I remember as a kid thinking....shouldn't he leave that girl alone? He's being annoying.
What about cat calling? For me, it is harassing someone and just shows how an awful person they are.
Sadly, in my country all these shitty construction workers (mostly, but there are others) do it constantly to women. It is quite disgusting hearing them say something like: Oye mami, tás buena (hey girl, you look good)
Again, because our society is quite sexist, they think it is ok... or they just don't care.
Hate it, never have done it and never will.
Sadly, in my country all these shitty construction workers (mostly, but there are others) do it constantly to women. It is quite disgusting hearing them say something like: Oye mami, tás buena (hey girl, you look good)
Again, because our society is quite sexist, they think it is ok... or they just don't care.
Hate it, never have done it and never will.
That is sexual harassment.
But it's not. It's of sexual nature by definition, not sexual harassment. Of course, a guy yelling "Show me your tits" is of sexual nature and sexual harassment but a guy saying "hi gorgeous" (just to have another "hey lady" example) is also of sexual nature but it's not harassment, especially not if the woman ignores him and the guy leaves it at that. He made a stupid comment, his intentions were clear but it didn't work. He didn't do anything afterwards how is that harassing anyone?
That's the thing. How they felt doesn't have to be how it actually was. A guy looks at the ass of a woman. The woman feels violated and sexually harassed but was neither of those.
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