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[Vanillalite]

OSCON 2012 is currently going on in Portland.

Here is the OSCON 2012 Website!

Here is the link to get the OSCON APP for iOS/Android

 

[Elfforkusu]

You are correct that I don't distribute linux binaries. However, I do use binaries from other people (example, occasionally firefox, to test something, desura, fah, etc.) Those aren't distro specific...

As far as libraries go, don't you actually not have to know where they're located? I mean, the search paths would be in ld.conf (or wtv that file is called,) right? I assume that's correct, because when you don't have the libraries, it's usually an ld error (ld: can't open shared object X: file does not exist) or something like that...

As far as making sure the user has the correct libraries to run the program, that's either the user's responsibility or the package manager's (in the distros.)

I mean, for example, if Steam needed a certain version of libjpeg (like, libjpeg.so.6 for whatever reason), what is stopping the user from getting it?

EDIT: I only used libjpeg has an example, since that's the thing I'm usually missing. I guess the library changes a lot, since I always seem to require an older version...

EDIT2: Please correct me if I'm wrong, these are just my impressions of how dynamic loading works.

The problem isn't search path related, it's version related.

e.g. I have to link against openssl 0.9.8z or whatever when I compile on Ubuntu 10.04. ldd builds my binary against it. Now I try to run it on Ubuntu 12.04, and surprise, there is no openssl 0.9.8z, it's now 1.0.0, the API is subtly different, and my crap is broken.

At the very least you need to test for all these cases (even if you explicitly avoid linking against openssl completely and use libdl), which means a separate QA platform for every version of every supported linux.


In regards to firefox in particular and working across distros/etc, here is what it links against (Ubuntu 12.04's official build):

	linux-gate.so.1 =>  (0xb77cf000)
	libdl.so.2 => /lib/i386-linux-gnu/libdl.so.2 (0xb7797000)
	libstdc++.so.6 => /usr/lib/i386-linux-gnu/libstdc++.so.6 (0xb76b2000)
	libm.so.6 => /lib/i386-linux-gnu/libm.so.6 (0xb7685000)
	libgcc_s.so.1 => /lib/i386-linux-gnu/libgcc_s.so.1 (0xb7667000)
	libpthread.so.0 => /lib/i386-linux-gnu/libpthread.so.0 (0xb764c000)
	libc.so.6 => /lib/i386-linux-gnu/libc.so.6 (0xb74a7000)
	/lib/ld-linux.so.2 (0xb77d0000)

...which is to say, stable stuff with APIs that haven't changed in a long while. They're linking against libdl as well, so even without looking at the FF source code it's probably safe to say that they're doing some clever stuff with it. (I know for example that FF uses nss, and that's not on the list so they must be bringing it in with dlopen) So they've engineered their build to not have troublesome linker dependencies -- not shocking, for a project as long-lived and ubiquitous as Firefox.

And yet, if you tried to run that on a 4 year old linux, I expect we'd run into some small problem... the sort of small problem that brings everything to a screeching halt. Yes, you could say "the user will fix it! He can install the libraries! He can make symlinks! He can use make!", but that's a freaking awful way to go about it. That's not "Fedora support", that's a hack using binaries built for another distro. Nobody wants to have to install the damn libraries themselves. The installer should do it!

To that end, there will be nothing stopping anyone from downloading the Steam Ubuntu 12.04 deb, unpackaging the bits, and trying to run then on CentOS 6 or Fedora or SUSE. But if you run into linker shenanigans, don't say you weren't warned!

 

[zoku88]

...which is to say, stable stuff with APIs that haven't changed in a long while. They're linking against libdl as well, so even without looking at the FF source code it's probably safe to say that they're doing some clever stuff with it. (I know for example that FF uses nss, and that's not on the list so they must be bringing it in with dlopen) So they've engineered their build to not have troublesome linker dependencies -- not shocking, for a project as long-lived and ubiquitous as Firefox.

And yet, if you tried to run that on a 4 year old linux, I expect we'd run into some small problem... the sort of small problem that brings everything to a screeching halt. Yes, you could say "the user will fix it! He can install the libraries! He can make symlinks! He can use make!", but that's a freaking awful way to go about it. That's not "Fedora support", that's a hack using binaries built for another distro. Nobody wants to have to install the damn libraries themselves. The installer should do it!

To that end, there will be nothing stopping anyone from downloading the Steam Ubuntu 12.04 deb, unpackaging the bits, and trying to run then on CentOS 6 or Fedora or SUSE. But if you run into linker shenanigans, don't say you weren't warned!

I actually addressed the version part:

I actually said it was either the users's (if they download it themselves) or the package maintainers', as far as dependencies go.

If, for some reason, it would depend on a rapidly changing library (of which, hopefully there are only a few), I would think they would just save everyone (themselves included) the trouble and statically link them.

For a more commercial example: there's vmware. That's pretty much what they do, as far as I can tell.

Btw, about nss and Firefox, since you were kinda worrying: nss source code is included within firefox soure code (understandable since nss is also a Mozilla thing). I think it's linked statically, but I haven't bothered looking at the makefiles... That's probably why it's not on the list. I would also assume, no other statically linked libraries would be on the list.

Also, btw, how do you find the dynamic links for a program?

 

[Massa]

ldd - print shared library dependencies

 

[zoku88]

ldd - print shared library dependencies

Thanks~

 

[Pctx]

OSCON 2012 is currently going on in Portland.

Here is the OSCON 2012 Website!

Here is the link to get the OSCON APP for iOS/Android

Friend of mine went. Wish I would've known about it. Would go today but Dell is screening 'The Dark Knight Rises' for us @ Cinetopia so I can't go.

 

[Elfforkusu]

I actually addressed the version part:

I actually said it was either the users's (if they download it themselves) or the package maintainers', as far as dependencies go.

Right, the first is annoying, the second == Valve == proper testing.

It's not as if they're saying "you're not allowed to run it on CentOS!" They just aren't supporting anything other than Ubuntu 12.04 yet.

If, for some reason, it would depend on a rapidly changing library (of which, hopefully there are only a few), I would think they would just save everyone (themselves included) the trouble and statically link them.

Static linking invites licensing problems, and many times as a result it's a non-starter. For example, LGPL'd code. There's potentially other issues as well (binary size), and then obviously you're not going to statically link things like the c runtime even if you think you want to.

Beyond that, sometimes even if it does run, all the libraries are "identical enough", and all appears well, subtle changes lead to bad things(tm) -- and it being a proprietary package, it becomes the dev's responsibility to fix it (as opposed to the usual linux/OSS blame game that lets everyone sleep it night as the bugs pile up). So, not to sound like a broken record, but: testing.

 

[zoku88]

Right, the first is annoying, the second == Valve == proper testing.

It's not as if they're saying "you're not allowed to run it on CentOS!" They just aren't supporting anything other than Ubuntu 12.04 yet.


Static linking invites licensing problems, and many times as a result it's a non-starter. For example, LGPL'd code. There's potentially other issues as well (binary size), and then obviously you're not going to statically link things like the c runtime even if you think you want to.

Beyond that, sometimes even if it does run, all the libraries are "identical enough", and all appears well, subtle changes lead to bad things(tm) -- and it being a proprietary package, it becomes the dev's responsibility to fix it (as opposed to the usual linux/OSS blame game that lets everyone sleep it night as the bugs pile up). So, not to sound like a broken record, but: testing.

What specifically do you mean by "proper testing". Does other corporate binaries, such as vmware-player or whatnot have "proper testing" in whatever regard you mean?

LGPL allows static linking, btw. You have to distribute the library with the program, though.

For GPL, I just looked it up and it looks like no one knows. (both static and dynamic could be in violation or just static or neither.) I think most libraries tend to go for more permissive licenses, though (like LGPL, Apache or MIT), probably for this reason.

I wasn't advocating statically linking everything, that would be insane. It makes sense to me, for a corporation to statically link libraries they feel could cause problems (like, unstable libraries that change interfaces often/slightly.) Also, they probably don't care that much about binary size, or care more about it working for their costumers (who could be using a variety of software and especially may be using really old or new libraries.)

Especially when you consider the size of Steam <<< the size of the games distributed on Steam...

 

[Massa]

Statically linking is not necessary when the games can distribute the libraries themselves. For example, VVVVVV includes a directory containing the following libraries: libogg.so.0.7.0, libSDL_image-1.2.so.0.8.2, libvorbisfile.so.3.3.4, libSDL-1.2.so.0.11.3, libSDL_mixer-1.2.so.0.2.6, libvorbis.so.0.4.5. These are often included in Linux distributions but they ship them anyway to make sure a compatible version exists.

Ideally, a Linux game distributed on Steam will only depend on very standard and stable libraries that are compatible across distributions, like libc and libX11. For other more specific libraries, like SDL, the games should either ship their own copies or use one shipped by Valve as part of Steam. Valve could provide some standard versions under /opt/valve/lib, and all games launched by Steam can be set up to look up that directory first.

 

[zoku88]

Statically linking is not necessary when the games can distribute the libraries themselves. For example, VVVVVV includes a directory containing the following libraries: libogg.so.0.7.0, libSDL_image-1.2.so.0.8.2, libvorbisfile.so.3.3.4, libSDL-1.2.so.0.11.3, libSDL_mixer-1.2.so.0.2.6, libvorbis.so.0.4.5. These are often included in Linux distributions but they ship them anyway to make sure a compatible version exists.

Ideally, a Linux game distributed on Steam will only depend on very standard and stable libraries that are compatible across distributions, like libc and libX11. For other more specific libraries, like SDL, the games should either ship their own copies or use one shipped by Valve as part of Steam. Valve could provide some standard versions under /opt/valve/lib, and all games launched by Steam can be set up to look up that directory first.

I think I originally had games in that post, but I think I took that out (it's really late, so I'll just make a mistake if I reread my post.) It's a good thing I edited that out, since I think I did say they would probably have static linking or something...

What I meant by that last line was that the binary size for Steam with static linking of 'troublesome' libraries would probably be much much smaller than most of the games themselves. So, if someone did really care about binary sizes, they probably wouldn't be worried about the size of Steam itself.

I have desura on my machine currently, and I guess that Cave Story does the same thing.

And I just looked at vmware and wow, does it ship with a lot of libraries... (mostly gnome related, it seems.)

lib.thnumod.so		   libgdk-x11-2.0.so.0			   libspi.so.0
libXau.so.6		   libgdk_pixbuf-2.0.so.0		   libssl.so.0.9.8
libXcomposite.so.1	   libgdkmm-2.4.so.1			   libstartup-notification-1.so.0
libXcursor.so.1		   libgio-2.0.so.0			   libstdc++.so.6
libXdamage.so.1		   libgiomm-2.4.so.1			   libthnuclnt.so
libXdmcp.so.6		   libgksu2.so.0			   libthnucups.so
libXfixes.so.3		   libglade-2.0.so.0			   libview.so.3
libXft.so.2		   libglib-2.0.so.0			   libvmcf.so
libXinerama.so.1	   libglibmm-2.4.so.1			   libvmplayer.so
libXrandr.so.2		   libglibmm_generate_extra_defs-2.4.so.1  libvmware-acetool.so
libXrender.so.1		   libgmodule-2.0.so.0			   libvmware-app-control.so
libamqp.so		   libgnomecanvas-2.so.0		   libvmware-fuseUI.so
libarchive.so.2		   libgnomecanvasmm-2.6.so.1		   libvmware-gksu.so
libart_lgpl_2.so.2	   libgobject-2.0.so.0			   libvmware-modconfig-console.so
libatk-1.0.so.0		   libgpg-error.so.0			   libvmware-modconfig.so
libatkmm-1.6.so.1	   libgthread-2.0.so.0			   libvmware-mount.so
libbonobo-2.so.0	   libgtk-x11-2.0.so.0			   libvmware-netcfg.so
libbonobo-activation.so.4  libgtkmm-2.4.so.1			   libvmware-unity-helper.so
libcairo.so.2		   libgtop-2.0.so.7			   libvmware-vmblock-fuse.so
libcairomm-1.0.so.1	   libgvmomi.so.0			   libvmware-zenity.so
libcds.so		   libpango-1.0.so.0			   libvmwarebase.so.0
libcrypto.so.0.9.8	   libpangocairo-1.0.so.0		   libvmwareui.so.0
libcurl.so.3		   libpangoft2-1.0.so.0			   libxcb-xlib.so.0
libcurl.so.4		   libpangomm-1.4.so.1			   libxml2.so.2
libexpat.so.0		   libpangox-1.0.so.0			   libxmlrpc.so.3
libfontconfig.so.1	   libpangoxft-1.0.so.0			   libxmlrpc_client.so.3
libfreetype.so.6	   libpcsclite.so.1.0.0			   libxmlrpc_util.so.3
libfuse.so.2		   libpixman-1.so.0			   libxmlrpc_xmlparse.so.3
libgailutil.so.18	   libpng12.so.0			   libxmlrpc_xmltok.so.3
libgcc_s.so.1		   librsvg-2.so.2			   libz.so.1
libgck.so.0		   libsexy.so.2				   wrapper-gtk24.sh
libgcr.so.0		   libsexymm.so.2
libgcrypt.so.11		   libsigc-2.0.so.0

Btw, those are all directories, except for that script... just have files of the same name inside of them. That's... kinda weird...

 

[GameplayWhore]

With respect to static linking, I don't think this was covered (but I admit I'm in a gardening fugue right now and might have missed it): If all your games use libfps, and suddenly a critical security flaw is found in that library, then running "zypper update libfps" (or whatever your distro uses) to patch the flaw (but otherwise leave the library the same) will totally solve the problem if the games all dynamically link, but with static linking you'd have to wait for each game to release their own fix. In such a case, you might find that by next Tuesday, your computer is already randomly turning on and off all your wifi kitchen appliances.

 

[zoku88]

With respect to static linking, I don't think this was covered (but I admit I'm in a gardening fugue right now and might have missed it): If all your games use libfps, and suddenly a critical security flaw is found in that library, then running "zypper update libfps" (or whatever your distro uses) to patch the flaw (but otherwise leave the library the same) will totally solve the problem if the games all dynamically link, but with static linking you'd have to wait for each game to release their own fix. In such a case, you might find that by next Tuesday, your computer is already randomly turning on and off all your wifi kitchen appliances.

That is true

It's a trade off between stability/guaranteed working-ness and robustness? (is that the right word?) Especially since people might be using a version of distro that is too old for that version of the library.

 

[GameplayWhore]

That is true

It's a trade off between stability/guaranteed working-ness and robustness? (is that the right word?) Especially since people might be using a version of distro that is too old for that version of the library.

Yeah, at work we have an older version of opensuse (though not that old), and we hesitate to upgrade to the newest on our workstations on account of some custom code from a no-longer-contracted coder possibly not working with newer glibc, but this version does not have the libraries necessary to run gimp 2.8, and the geeks here really want to play with the single window mode. So I think we're using one of the release candidates, which apparently uses a slightly older library. It's a workable solution but definitely one that is annoying and took lots of hunting around.

 

[zoku88]

Yeah, at work we have an older version of opensuse (though not that old), and we hesitate to upgrade to the newest on our workstations on account of some custom code from a no-longer-contracted coder possibly not working with newer glibc, but this version does not have the libraries necessary to run gimp 2.8, and the geeks here really want to play with the single window mode. So I think we're using one of the release candidates, which apparently uses a slightly older library. It's a workable solution but definitely one that is annoying and took lots of hunting around.

At work, I'm pretty sure we use a version of opensuse that is several years old. At least, judging by the kernel version number... Most of the software used is from vendors of expensive products, like SpringSoft (at least, it seems as those pieces of software would be expensive), so they probably have pretty good support.

 

[qizah]

So installing the Unity Web Apps preview and trying to uninstall it basically removed parts of my OS.

'E:Type 'ain' is not known on line 3 in source list /etc/apt/sources.list.d/webapps-preview-precise.list'

That's what I get ... so I guess I'll be doing a fresh install >_>.

 

[Elfforkusu]

What specifically do you mean by "proper testing". Does other corporate binaries, such as vmware-player or whatnot have "proper testing" in whatever regard you mean?

Proper testing is, generically speaking, whatever it takes to answer the following questions affirmatively:

1) Does our stuff work on platform X?
2) Am I sure our stuff works on platform X?

It's subjective, because you're never going to get 100% test coverage, but you want some confidence that the real bits actually run in practice, not just "well, it should work but we haven't tried it".

Ideally, a Linux game distributed on Steam will only depend on very standard and stable libraries that are compatible across distributions, like libc and libX11. For other more specific libraries, like SDL, the games should either ship their own copies or use one shipped by Valve as part of Steam. Valve could provide some standard versions under /opt/valve/lib, and all games launched by Steam can be set up to look up that directory first.

Agreed.

With respect to static linking, I don't think this was covered (but I admit I'm in a gardening fugue right now and might have missed it): If all your games use libfps, and suddenly a critical security flaw is found in that library, then running "zypper update libfps" (or whatever your distro uses) to patch the flaw (but otherwise leave the library the same) will totally solve the problem if the games all dynamically link, but with static linking you'd have to wait for each game to release their own fix. In such a case, you might find that by next Tuesday, your computer is already randomly turning on and off all your wifi kitchen appliances.

I didn't mention this, but good call. In practice, shipping new code can be a bit of an ordeal, so having to ship for every bugfix on a dependency... can be problematic.

 

[tfur]

I would imagine Valve would ship games with the required libs, and the wrapper start scripts would just have software specific LD_LIBRARY_PATH defines. It should be pretty easy to make things portable.

 

[Tworak]

Kernel 3.5 released

Summary: This release includes support for metadata checksums in ext4, userspace probes for performance profiling with tools like Systemtap or perf, a sandboxing mechanism that allows to filters syscalls, a new network queue management algorithm designed to fight bufferbloat, support for checkpointing and restoring TCP connections, support for TCP Early Retransmit (RFC 5827), support for Android-style opportunistic suspend, btrfs I/O failure statistics, and SCSI over Firewire and USB. Many small features and new drivers and fixes are also available.

kernelnewbies.org

btrfs 'buffs' I totally dig. like, totally.

 

[itxaka]

Well I've officially (unofficially because if it was officially I would get yelled at) starting the case study of moving on from Ubuntu to CentOS for web serving. The fact that Cpanel isn't on Debian has pissed me off enough (as well as my web content providers) that we're starting to move that way.

Ironically, I remember using RHL in the past and HATING the RPM's... oddly enough, they are way the hell better than .deb's for what you do.

Only thing that is wonky is where stuff exists. Best example is configuring eth0 for my VM.

Ubuntu: /etc/network/interfaces

CentOS: /etc/sysconfig/network-scripts/ifcfg-eth0

Logically I look at both and I think... "Hmmphh, yeah, yeah I see the logic... but why the gap?" (Meaning why is it so different?) In the reading I've been doing, RHL is a school of thought vastly different from that of Debian. Thankfully since I know vi and navigating a CLI, I can fumble my way through with some web searches and such. As to the "why move?" well as previously mentioned, Cpanel for administration as well as security, rolling updates and to be honest, SELinux is a pretty big step up from bubblegummed security solutions as well as AppArmor which is fine for day to day stuff but actual system kernel level hardening, SELinux wins that race.

Who knows, maybe I'm crazy but I'm finding myself tinkering with Linux more and more every day and each day I:

A) Learn something new
B) Love to find out new ways (or at least 2 ways of doing things)
C) Hate Microsoft and Windows more and more each day

You are in for a ride with SELinux. If things haven't change just always remember that when something is not working its always SELinux fault. The hours I have spent deploying shit that didn't work due to SELinux policies. And wow at making policies yourself, ugh.

Once you get it, it's pretty good though.

 

[Pctx]

You are in for a ride with SELinux. If things haven't change just always remember that when something is not working its always SELinux fault. The hours I have spent deploying shit that didn't work due to SELinux policies. And wow at making policies yourself, ugh.

Once you get it, it's pretty good though.

Thankfully all of my policies will be handled by shorewall firewall which parse iptables infocto SELinux. If it werent that easy i probably would cry.

 

[Automatisch]

You are in for a ride with SELinux. If things haven't change just always remember that when something is not working its always SELinux fault. The hours I have spent deploying shit that didn't work due to SELinux policies. And wow at making policies yourself, ugh.

Once you get it, it's pretty good though.

This has been my experience as well. Most people disable it which is stupid because it's actually really good, it just takes time to learn and can be very convoluted to do basic stuff.

 

[Vanillalite]

Dear Linux-GAF,

I have FRICK'N AMAZING NEWS!

&#8207;@linuxfoundation
What session from the #linuxcon #cloudopen schedule is most interesting to you? Respond w/hashtags and win a free ticket​

@Vanillalite
@linuxfoundation Love to hear Phil McKinney's talk about Innovation in a Collaborative Economy #linuxcon #cloudopen
​

@linuxfoundation Congrats to @Vanillalite ! You're today's #linuxcon #cloudopen hashtag winner! Email us at pr@linuxfoundation.org for your ticket!​

Linux-GAF represent! The Neogaf might have an official representative at this years Linuxcon 2012! Not to mention a fucking who's who of members from everyone in the tech space will be there. HP, Oracle, Canonical, Twitter, Facebook, Intel etc... and even fucking the man himself Linus Torvalds is going to do a Q&A session with a moderator. SOOOOO BALLER!!!!!!!

 

[zoku88]

Dear Linux-GAF,

I have FRICK'N AMAZING NEWS!

&#8207;@linuxfoundation
What session from the #linuxcon #cloudopen schedule is most interesting to you? Respond w/hashtags and win a free ticket​

@Vanillalite
@linuxfoundation Love to hear Phil McKinney's talk about Innovation in a Collaborative Economy #linuxcon #cloudopen
​

@linuxfoundation Congrats to @Vanillalite ! You're today's #linuxcon #cloudopen hashtag winner! Email us at pr@linuxfoundation.org for your ticket!​

Linux-GAF represent! The Neogaf might have an official representative at this years Linuxcon 2012! Not to mention a fucking who's who of members from everyone in the tech space will be there. HP, Oracle, Canonical, Twitter, Facebook, Intel etc... and even fucking the man himself Linus Torvalds is going to do a Q&A session with a moderator. SOOOOO BALLER!!!!!!!

I'm guessing that is you?

 

[Vanillalite]

I'm guessing that is you?

That be me!

 

[zoku88]

That be me!

Lucky. My company is on that list, but I don't think I could swindle my way to getting there XD

 

[Tworak]

Dear Linux-GAF,

I have FRICK'N AMAZING NEWS!

SOOOOO BALLER!!!!!!!

niiiice. congrats!

 

[Vanillalite]

Lucky. My company is on that list, but I don't think I could swindle my way to getting there XD

Biggest issue I have is just that they are doing the give away only a month out. Doesn't give me a lot of time to make plans to get to the conference and all.

Would be cool to go and maybe meet up with any other GAFers that might be going!!!

 

[itxaka]

That be me!

Nice! congrats!

Punch the guys at intel for me.

 

[Vanillalite]

Nice! congrats!

Punch the guys at intel for me.

Awww you hate them that much?

 

[Pctx]

I tweeted last night to them but I doubt I'll see an invite.

After a week or so living in CentOS, I'm moving the college over to CentOS for our web servers. Literally 3/4 of the hardening I did on the Ubuntu servers were done by DEFAULT on CentOS which blew me away.

YUM is my new found friend and 7 years of support on 6.3 is fantastic. What I'm learning now though with CentOS is "updating" is the extreme opposite from Debian/Ubuntu whereas with those Distros you update all the time. CentOS and RHEL you update once a month, once a quarter, once a year. Definitely taking some getting used to changing habits and not writing CRON scripts for auto-updates but hey, I like stability.

 

[Massa]

I tweeted last night to them but I doubt I'll see an invite.

After a week or so living in CentOS, I'm moving the college over to CentOS for our web servers. Literally 3/4 of the hardening I did on the Ubuntu servers were done by DEFAULT on CentOS which blew me away.

YUM is my new found friend and 7 years of support on 6.3 is fantastic. What I'm learning now though with CentOS is "updating" is the extreme opposite from Debian/Ubuntu whereas with those Distros you update all the time. CentOS and RHEL you update once a month, once a quarter, once a year. Definitely taking some getting used to changing habits and not writing CRON scripts for auto-updates but hey, I like stability.

That's what Debian Stable is.

But yes, CentOS is great system. They had some trouble keeping up with RHEL but things seem much better now.

 

[Pctx]

That's what Debian Stable is.

But yes, CentOS is great system. They had some trouble keeping up with RHEL but things seem much better now.

I've had mixed feelings going over to straight up Debian over Ubuntu which isn't to say I won't in the future, but it made more sense to move to CentOS for future considerations of support for RHEL for the college. I've read the issues they had in transition from 5 to 6 and thankfully I didn't have to deal with that. Right now I've got CentOS 6.3 as my main VMWare box as well and it's nice and stable.

Pretty soon I'm going to be using Arch aren't I?

 

[Vanillalite]

I've had mixed feelings going over to straight up Debian over Ubuntu which isn't to say I won't in the future, but it made more sense to move to CentOS for future considerations of support for RHEL for the college. I've read the issues they had in transition from 5 to 6 and thankfully I didn't have to deal with that. Right now I've got CentOS 6.3 as my main VMWare box as well and it's nice and stable.

Pretty soon I'm going to be using Arch aren't I?

Cent is a great move. Seems to be the move for people who want a great full time server distro that aren't so big they want to go down the Red Hat route in terms of distro and support payments and such.

Main thing about Ubuntu is to make sure you're always on the LTS for server shit that isn't personal. It's also worth noting the biggest shit I like about Ubuntu are similar to RHEL in that it's all of the extras on top that you can pay for that are nice. Ubuntu's Landscape program is the single best thing about Ubuntu server IMO, but you have to pay to be part of Ubuntu's advantage program to get it.

If you are just going to do all that shit yourself might as well just use Cent IMO.

 

[Pctx]

Cent is a great move. Seems to be the move for people who want a great full time server distro that aren't so big they want to go down the Red Hat route in terms of distro and support payments and such.

Main thing about Ubuntu is to make sure you're always on the LTS for server shit that isn't personal. It's also worth noting the biggest shit I like about Ubuntu are similar to RHEL in that it's all of the extras on top that you can pay for that are nice. Ubuntu's Landscape program is the single best thing about Ubuntu server IMO, but you have to pay to be part of Ubuntu's advantage program to get it.

If you are just going to do all that shit yourself might as well just use Cent IMO.

I'm currently looking into "cloud" management systems that do administration for multiple servers a'la a dashboard of sorts. Curious if anyone had recommendations.

 

[zoku88]

I'm currently looking into "cloud" management systems that do administration for multiple servers a'la a dashboard of sorts. Curious if anyone had recommendations.

Multiple physical servers? Or can they be virtual? If they're virtual, the software that vmware ships that uses ESX has a dashboard sort of thing. Never used it, though.

I'd imagine that most VPS providers also have a dashboard. Linode seems to, at least. (I have a friend who uses them, but I'm pretty sure he only has one server.)

 

[GameplayWhore]

Pretty soon I'm going to be using Arch aren't I?

Did I mention that I'm using Arch in a production server?

It's just out of curiosity about how well rolling release distributions handle a load, so naturally I put it in the most centrally critical server we have.



…fear my recklessness.

>_>

 

[Pctx]

Multiple physical servers? Or can they be virtual? If they're virtual, the software that vmware ships that uses ESX has a dashboard sort of thing. Never used it, though.

I'd imagine that most VPS providers also have a dashboard. Linode seems to, at least. (I have a friend who uses them, but I'm pretty sure he only has one server.)

Yeah we're running an ESXi environment but I'm looking for more of a dashboard view of my servers from a management perspective as in:

What's installed
Log files
Patch remediation etc.

For a Syslog server I'm thinking I'm going to go with Splunk, I'm just worried about going over 500MB limit. :/

Did I mention that I'm using Arch in a production server?

It's just out of curiosity about how well rolling release distributions handle a load, so naturally I put it in the most centrally critical server we have.



…fear my recklessness.

>_>

Razors edge indeed! I don't think I'd throw an Arch server out there just for fear of me losing my job on people not knowing how to do anything on it... like... at all.

 

[zoku88]

Yeah we're running an ESXi environment but I'm looking for more of a dashboard view of my servers from a management perspective as in:

What's installed
Log files
Patch remediation etc.

For a Syslog server I'm thinking I'm going to go with Splunk, I'm just worried about going over 500MB limit. :/

Oh, I see.

Btw, how is it? I've been looking at bare-metal hypervisors recently. I currently use vmware player, but was wondering if performance would be improved by going to a bare-metal one.

 

[Pctx]

Oh, I see.

Btw, how is it? I've been looking at bare-metal hypervisors recently. I currently use vmware player, but was wondering if performance would be improved by going to a bare-metal one.

I'm running VMWare Workstation on my home machine and ESXi at work blows it out of the water in terms of options, SAN, backups and pretty much everything else. I've actually been thinking about taking my desktop at home and loading it up with CentOS and run ESXi on top of it at home for movie, music and storage etc. At the very least I would recommend to pony up the dough and buy workstation since it has snapshots and more options than player.

One major difference between the ESXi "Free" hypervisor and the paid one (which is what I use at work) is the fact that we get VMH (H for Host) software that controls the VMH servers. With the "Free" ESXi it is handled through a web interface.

 

[Tworak]

munin is great if you're looking for a monitoring tool. i.e. you have a graph fetish.

 

[GameplayWhore]

Razors edge indeed! I don't think I'd throw an Arch server out there just for fear of me losing my job on people not knowing how to do anything on it... like... at all.

It has so far given us fewer problems than Ubuntu, CentOS or OpenSuSE.

 

[zoku88]

I'm running VMWare Workstation on my home machine and ESXi at work blows it out of the water in terms of options, SAN, backups and pretty much everything else. I've actually been thinking about taking my desktop at home and loading it up with CentOS and run ESXi on top of it at home for movie, music and storage etc. At the very least I would recommend to pony up the dough and buy workstation since it has snapshots and more options than player.

One major difference between the ESXi "Free" hypervisor and the paid one (which is what I use at work) is the fact that we get VMH (H for Host) software that controls the VMH servers. With the "Free" ESXi it is handled through a web interface.

Interesting.

Previously, I was looking at something like this:

http://michaelmk.blogspot.com/2012/06/gaming-on-gentoolinux-via-xen.html

Though, my machine doesn't actually have Vt-d (i really hate how the 2500 has it, but the 2500K doesn't...)

I really don't need options, since I rarely actually use the VM. Maybe like once a week to do something really quick.

 

[Pctx]

Interesting.

Previously, I was looking at something like this:

http://michaelmk.blogspot.com/2012/06/gaming-on-gentoolinux-via-xen.html

Though, my machine doesn't actually have Vt-d (i really hate how the 2500 has it, but the 2500K doesn't...)

I really don't need options, since I rarely actually use the VM. Maybe like once a week to do something really quick.

Wow that looks neat. I would imagine if you got anymore custom than that it would be a PITA to troubleshoot and I am trying to minimize that when I get home!

It has so far given us fewer problems than Ubuntu, CentOS or OpenSuSE.

Good to know. Curious, what is it serving up? DNS? DHCP, Samba or Web apps?

 

[tfur]

munin is great if you're looking for a monitoring tool. i.e. you have a graph fetish.

That looks pretty cool. This product definitely seems more granular than most others.

I use Ganglia for our clusters.

This seems maybe better than Cacti. I was planning on building a Cacti server for just the master servers, but I may look into this.

 

[tfur]

I tweeted last night to them but I doubt I'll see an invite.

After a week or so living in CentOS, I'm moving the college over to CentOS for our web servers. Literally 3/4 of the hardening I did on the Ubuntu servers were done by DEFAULT on CentOS which blew me away.

YUM is my new found friend and 7 years of support on 6.3 is fantastic. What I'm learning now though with CentOS is "updating" is the extreme opposite from Debian/Ubuntu whereas with those Distros you update all the time. CentOS and RHEL you update once a month, once a quarter, once a year. Definitely taking some getting used to changing habits and not writing CRON scripts for auto-updates but hey, I like stability.

CentOS is the only Linux OS that I will put into real production nowadays. I never really have any stability problems ever, and we beat the systems literally 24/7.

 

[zoku88]

Wow that looks neat. I would imagine if you got anymore custom than that it would be a PITA to troubleshoot and I am trying to minimize that when I get home!

It's insane the amount of time I spend troubleshooting stuff when I get home.

There's something wrong with me

 

[GameplayWhore]

Good to know. Curious, what is it serving up? DNS? DHCP, Samba or Web apps?

NFS. Our most important resource is our research data and the timely access to it.

It will probably eventually become the master NIS server, as well. A few other things, likely. But the data serving is most crucial.

 

[Tworak]

CentOS is the only Linux OS that I will put into real production nowadays.

yup yup.

a few years ago a colleague suggested using fedora instead of centos. I musta flipped over like 4 magazine racks in the blind rage that followed.

 

[pants]

I'm excited about Steam coming to Linux, I used to use Red Hat way back in 2000, was interesting. Hoping to move over to Linux (Ubuntu) permanently when steam hits

 

[ThatObviousUser]

yup yup.

a few years ago a colleague suggested using fedora instead of centos. I musta flipped over like 4 magazine racks in the blind rage that followed.

So Ubuntu would have been out of the question too, then?