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[viciouskillersquirrel]

A short exchange in the Matrix anniversary thread about the lack of brown people in Lord of the Rings reminded me of a rather long, but very interesting article I came across* on the conservative politics of LotR:

http://dir.salon.com/story/ent/feature/2002/12/17/tolkien_brin/print.html

I won't quote the whole thing here, since it is quite long, but the main thrust of the article is that Tolkien's work is infused with a very reactionary sentiment: "Things will never be as good as they were in the good old days."

Add to this the fact that only Numeronians of "pure blood" ever got speaking roles in the books and that the only people of any colour throughout the hexology were in Sauron's camp, you get a vision of a very post-colonial conservative British mindset, personified in many ways in the hobbits of the Shire and their way of life.

What do you guys think? Was Tolkien racist (even unintentionally)? Do people read too much into these things?

*

Spoiler

While trying to find something else about the MASSIVE, anonymous peasant underclass the World of LotR would need to be populated with to provide food for all these manly warriors.

 

[Princess Carl]

I would like to think it was unintentional. But regardless, whether or not it is true doesn't change the quality of the book.

 

[DrForester]

They played up a elf/dwarf romance sub plot. Can't see how that could be racist.

Serious answer. I don't think it was so much a comment on racisim as it was isolationism by certain countries. USA kind of being represented by the elves. While some of the nations in middle earth would work together, none of them really seemed to eager to interact with each other, much like the World War 1 era.

 

[Rabbit Lord]

They played up a elf/dwarf romance sub plot. Can't see how that could be racist..

So good.

 

[viciouskillersquirrel]

They played up a elf/dwarf romance sub plot. Can't see how that could be racist..

Both of them were still white. I said racist, not homophobic.

 

[Smokey]

Yes it is.

 

[DoomGyver]

edited for discussions sake.

 

[VeritasVierge]

I consider it like Gone With The Wind. It's just a reflection of the time when it was written. Same with alot of comic books that were started back in the 50s and 60s. So many main characters were exclusively white to the point the media is now trying more to diversify major comic book characters by changing their race.

 

[Love To Love You Baby]

I dunno, all those elves and wizards and shit are pretty European in general mythological origin - so wouldn't it make sense that it would be full of whiteys? I wouldn't expect a book written in China based off of Chinese mythology to be ethnically diverse.

I can't really speak to anyone of color being in Sauron's camp, considering I haven't read the books and all I can remember from the films are like goblins or whatever. Unless we're considering them to be of color?

 

[SpeedingUptoStop]

I consider it like Gone With The Wind. It's just a reflection of the time when it was written. Same with alot of comic books that were started back in the 50s and 60s. So many main characters were exclusively white to the point the media is now trying more to diversify major comic book characters by changing their race.

Pretty much. You gotta look at the context of these things.

 

[viciouskillersquirrel]

Its just a freakin movie, people are too sensitive to racism. OH MY GOD THERE ARE NO BLACK PEOPLE! THATS RACIST, or OMG THE BLACK DUDE DIED FIRST, THATS TOTALLY RACIST!

mountain out of a mole hill

Uh... have you read the book? Tolkien went out of his way to point out that Sauron's army contained just about every race and species in the world, including men riding on elephants and others half naked with black skin and bright red tongues.

I consider it like Gone With The Wind. It's just a reflection of the time when it was written. Same with alot of comic books that were started back in the 50s and 60s. So many main characters were exclusively white to the point the media is now trying more to diversify major comic book characters by changing their race.

I love Gone With The Wind. I consider both the book and movie to be among my favourites of all time. It's soooo good, and very much a love letter to the dying memory of the antebellum South, but that doesn't change the fact that it's extremely racist and sympathetic to the KKK.

 

[PrinceAdam]

It's the most racist thing of all time, let's burn every single copy of it.

 

[SpeedingUptoStop]

It's the most racist thing of all time, let's burn every single copy of it.

I like your swagger, kid.

 

[jonnybryce]

Its just a freakin movie, people are too sensitive to racism. OH MY GOD THERE ARE NO BLACK PEOPLE! THATS RACIST, or OMG THE BLACK DUDE DIED FIRST, THATS TOTALLY RACIST!

mountain out of a mole hill

So even blatant racism in a movie is ok because it's just a "movie" and people are too sensitive?

Oh, and it's actually not just a movie, it's also a book.

GOOD DAY TO YOU, SIR.

 

[Dead Man]

Add to this the fact that only Numeronians of "pure blood" ever got speaking roles in the books and that the only people of any colour throughout the hexology were in Sauron's camp, you get a vision of a very post-colonial conservative British mindset, personified in many ways in the hobbits of the Shire and their way of life.

You must not have read the same books I did.

 

[Sibylus]

I honestly can't say I've heard this before, but it certainly gets you thinking.

Spoiler

I have heard it about Chronicles of Narnia, though (the role of the Telmarines).

 

[DoomGyver]

So even blatant racism in a movie is ok because it's just a "movie" and people are too sensitive?

Oh, and it's actually not just a movie, it's also a book.

GOOD DAY TO YOU, SIR.

Why don't you point me to this blatant racism. And I thought we were discussing the movie, not the novel.

 

[viciouskillersquirrel]

You must not have read the same books I did.

I exaggerated for effect, but that's there too. I guess you missed the passages where the elves lamented the dilution of the superhuman Numeronian bloodline with that of "lesser men".

Why don't you point me to this blatant racism. And I thought we were discussing the movie, not the novel.

Jackson toned down the racist undertones for the movies. I'm talking about the novel.

 

[Taichu]

Those tree guys might have been black.

 

[The Lamonster]

The central themes of LOTR are far away from racism - friendship, honor, hope. These are good things. Tolkien and his good characters never harbored hate for anybody.

 

[fistfulofmetal]

As a full blooded Urukai, I find the representation of my kind in the movie insulting.

 

[Majmun]

Never noticed it.

Going to read the book again. brb

 

[iamblades]

You have to understand that LOTR was intended to be a replacement mythology for the English, and not a commentary or allegory intended for contemporary situations.

Tolkien hated allegory, he didn't really intend the imagery or stories in the book to mean anything relevant to the modern world, he just wanted to replace the french Arthurian myths with something more English, something more like the pre-norman mythology.

 

[viciouskillersquirrel]

As a full blooded Urukai, I find the representation of my kind in the movie insulting.

Dude, the whole point of the Uruk-Hai was that they weren't full-blooded at all. They were described in the book as half-orc, half-troll abominations of nature.

 

[ZombieSupaStar]

i dont think so, i remember a time when everyone wasnt so butthurt pc either, wasnt their a south park episode about this?


"is this racist" is the new "it may cause cancer" :lol

 

[charsace]

Yes it is.

.

 

[harSon]

There's certainly some validity to the statement but I honestly can't be bothered with some thinly veiled racism from a novel written in the early to mid 1900s. While unfortunate, I've come to expect a lot of things from that era to be overly racist. It is what it is.

 

[shintoki]

Uh... have you read the book? Tolkien went out of his way to point out that Sauron's army contained just about every race and species in the world, including men riding on elephants and others half naked with black skin and bright red tongues.

Well, H.P. Lovecraft sure wasn't giving anyone who wasn't White Anglo-Saxon the benefit of the doubt :lol

Yet I think its something you have to acknowledge and get over, because it really doesn't matter anymore. The man who wrote it Died years ago. They came from a different time. And yes, Bigotry was commonplace back then. So it really shouldn't come as a surprise, but it does not take away from the fact that it is a piece of classical literature. Being honest, that racism in it probably makes it much stronger also. It really does make the author's time period on what was deemed a norm in society all the more clear. How they actually precieved other race's culture and more. Yes its fantasy, but it does have allot of subtle notions below it with are interesting to analyze.

I'm kinda starting a mindless rant, So I'll sum it up. Your beating a "dead" horse :lol People were more prone to discrimination back then...or more vocal about it is a better word. So their work reflected that.

 

[Chichikov]

Oh there are plenty of brown people in lord of the rings.
They only happen to be born out of mud and fight the blue eyed blond people.

But seriously, yes, the books are very much a product of post Victorian British conservatism, outside the stuff already mentioned here, there's also a metric ton of sexual repression.

 

[Dead Man]

I exaggerated for effect, but that's there too. I guess you missed the passages where the elves lamented the dilution of the superhuman Numeronian bloodline with that of "lesser men".

No, I read that bit. I think if you look for it you could find racism, but I think it is more just a conservative longing for the past by a white Englishman at a time when there was not a lot of exposure to other cultures in Europe. Tolkien probably never saw a black person who was not employed in a menial role. For better or worse people and literature are products of their milieu. Adaptations of European myths = most characters are white. I agree the description of Sauron's armies as including Southrons etc reeks of xenophobia, but I don't know if it was racism. I really think it was more fear of the outsider, and the colonial mindset that Tolkien may have had.

There were also plenty of characters that were noble despite not being Numenorian. Also, there were the Black Numenorians (I know, black LOL) who were in the service of Sauron, so it's not like they were exactly portrayed as pure goodness personified. The stewards of Gondor also had Numenorian blood and Denethor was as mad and twisted as anyone in teh books.

 

[TheDarkKnight774]

to say LoTR is racist is an extreme stretch by people looking way to hard into things. Nevermind the timeframe of when it was written, you have a fantasy world where various races overcoming their differences to band together to fight forces of evil. The color of their skin is a narrow distinction of race, especially in the world of Middle Earth. Nevermind the context of some of the race's various ancient grudges

 

[VeritasVierge]

I love Gone With The Wind. I consider both the book and movie to be among my favourites of all time. It's soooo good, and very much a love letter to the dying memory of the antebellum South, but that doesn't change the fact that it's extremely racist and sympathetic to the KKK.

Yeah, the book was racist as it sympathized towards that mind set but it's just something I've come to accept. I read many of Tolkien's books but never cared to learn more about him as a person. Especially his politics because I was always afraid it would ruin his works for me if I knew him to be racist as some undertones of the books suggest (everybody fighting for good is white on Middle Earth). Just like I can't appreciate Roman Polanski's work anymore because he's a goddamn pedophile.

 

[way more]

Although calling LOTR racist would require extremely biased views and irrational though, it's posts like the following that disturb me the most.

Its just a freakin movie, people are too sensitive to racism. OH MY GOD THERE ARE NO BLACK PEOPLE! THATS RACIST, or OMG THE BLACK DUDE DIED FIRST, THATS TOTALLY RACIST!

A dim and reactionary view like that which exists only to condemn without thought helps you understand why we can't have nice things.

 

[AMUSIX]

In Middle Earth, the races are most along the lines of Man, Elf, Dwarf, Hobbit, Ent, Wizard, with subclasses in each race. There is alot of animosity among the different races, with everyone looking down on everyone else...so, yes, there was absolutely intentional racism present.

The big thing about the Fellowship is that it's made up of members from a variety of races.

 

[Robot Without A Cause]

Tolkien's letters and personal views on things like Nazi Germany, Apartheid South Africa, etc. all suggest he wasn't racist at all. I really don't see how he could do a complete 180 on those positions when he sat down to write a novel.

 

[DoomGyver]

A dim and reactionary view like that which exists only to condemn without thought helps you understand why we can't have nice things.

Sorry for my ignorance, but I thought we were talking about the movie and not the novel.

 

[viciouskillersquirrel]

Well, H.P. Lovecraft sure wasn't giving anyone who wasn't White Anglo-Saxon the benefit of the doubt :lol

Yet I think its something you have to acknowledge and get over, because it really doesn't matter anymore. The man who wrote it Died years ago. They came from a different time. And yes, Bigotry was commonplace back then. So it really shouldn't come as a surprise, but it does not take away from the fact that it is a piece of classical literature. Being honest, that racism in it probably makes it much stronger also. It really does make the author's time period on what was deemed a norm in society all the more clear. How they actually precieved other race's culture and more. Yes its fantasy, but it does have allot of subtle notions below it with are interesting to analyze.

I'm kinda starting a mindless rant, So I'll sum it up. Your beating a "dead" horse :lol People were more prone to discrimination back then...or more vocal about it is a better word. So their work reflected that.

I think people are misunderstanding what I'm trying to do here. I wasn't really offended by the racism in LotR, anymore than that in Gone With The Wind. I was just wondering if anyone else picked up on it.

 

[harSon]

Tolkien's letters and personal views on things like Nazi Germany, Apartheid South Africa, etc. all suggest he wasn't racist at all. I really don't see how he could do a complete 180 on those positions when he sat down to write a novel.

Could you post some examples? Not being in favor of tyranny towards a particular race does not mean you're not a racist, bigotry and racial superiority are still possible within such a mindset.

 

[LiveFromKyoto]

I think those elements are definitely there, yes. But are they inherently race-referencing pejoratives, or just the ever pervasive problem of the generalized other? Because you can read this into any film with a physically differentiated antagonist.

 

[Haly]

In Middle Earth, the races are most along the lines of Man, Elf, Dwarf, Hobbit, Ent, Wizard, with subclasses in each race. There is alot of animosity among the different races, with everyone looking down on everyone else...so, yes, there was absolutely intentional racism present.

The big thing about the Fellowship is that it's made up of members from a variety of races.

Europe is also made up of many different races and cultures. Notice how they're "uniting" against the "men of the east".

At least, I think that's how the argument went, I don't believe a word of it myself.

 

[krypt0nian]

Of course not.

 

[KO Traveling Hobo]

I think you're reading too far into it. Some of the characters might be racist/sexist/classist(?), but that doesn't make the book or its author any of those things.

AFAIK, most if not all of the characters exhibited less than savory traits. Sure the bad guys wanted to kill everyone, but a lot of the problems came from the "good guys" doing stupid, and often petty, shit.

 

[Ela Hadrun]

I think the books were passively racist, you know, kind of an "of course Sauron was able to enslave the yellow brown and black people and it up to the people chosen by god who yeah happen to be white to overthrow him"

As opposed to The Chronicles of Narnia and the Evil Turko-Arabian Muslims, which was definitely the product of an agenda

 

[viciouskillersquirrel]

I think the books were passively racist, you know, kind of an "of course Sauron was able to enslave the yellow brown and black people and it up to the people chosen by god who yeah happen to be white to overthrow him"

As opposed to The Chronicles of Narnia and the Evil Turko-Arabian Muslims, which was definitely the product of an agenda

I've never read the Narnia books. Care to expand on that?

 

[iamblades]

Tolkien's letters and personal views on things like Nazi Germany, Apartheid South Africa, etc. all suggest he wasn't racist at all. I really don't see how he could do a complete 180 on those positions when he sat down to write a novel.

Like I said above, LOTR wasn't his personal opinion. It was a rewrite of the Anglo-Saxon mythology that existed before the Norman invasion.

As for any inner meaning or 'message', it has in the intention of the author none. It is neither allegorical nor topical... It was written long before the foreshadow of 1939 had yet become a threat of inevitable disaster, and from that point the story would have developed along essentially the same lines, if that disaster had been averted.

 

[Blackace]

Well, H.P. Lovecraft sure wasn't giving anyone who wasn't White Anglo-Saxon the benefit of the doubt :lol

I like the PnP RPG. video games and other stuff based off his work but during his time he was a total hack..

And yes LotR did have racist undertones as did many other classics from that time. It would have been great if they didn't but it does show how far we have come as a planet..

 

[natethegreat409]

Hobbits = White Men
Dwarves = Black Men
Elves = Oriental Men
Men = Hispanic Men
They all unite to face an ultimate evil.

Female character kills one of the most powerful enemies in the series. A hobbit (a minority that is ignored by the world of the "big folk") overcomes everything and saves Middle Earth.

Stop looking for shit that isn't there.

 

[harSon]

Europe is also made up of many different races and cultures. Notice how they're "uniting" against the "men of the east".

At least, I think that's how the argument went, I don't believe a word of it myself.

It's kind of hard to ignore IMO. The whole West versus the East complex, the fact that the Antagonists (With the exception of the ruler) are of dark skin, etc. I'm not entirely sure of the validity of this statement but apparently Tolkien described the Orcs as "stated to be curruption of the human form seen in Elves an Men. They are squat, broad, flat-nosed, sallow skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes;in fact, degraded and repulsive versions of the least lovely Mongol types"

 

[Robot Without A Cause]

Could you post some examples? Not being in favor of tyranny towards a particular race does not mean you're not a racist, bigotry and racial superiority are still possible within such a mindset.

This is what a quick skim of his wiki article brings up, best I can do right now, sorry (don't have my books with me):

The question of racist or racialist elements in Tolkien's views and works has been the matter of some scholarly debate.[82] Christine Chism[83] distinguishes accusations as falling into three categories: intentional racism,[84] unconscious Eurocentric bias, and an evolution from latent racism in Tolkien's early work to a conscious rejection of racist tendencies in his late work. Tolkien is known to have condemned Nazi "race-doctrine" and anti-Semitism as "wholly pernicious and unscientific".[85] He also said of racial segregation in South Africa,

The treatment of colour nearly always horrifies anyone going out from Britain.[86]

In 1968, he objected to a description of Middle-earth as "Nordic", a term he said he disliked due to its association with racialist theories.[87] Tolkien had nothing but contempt for Adolf Hitler, whom he accused of "perverting ... and making for ever accursed, that noble northern spirit" which was so dear to him.[88]

He denounced anti-German fanaticism in the propagandized British war effort during World War II. In 1944, he wrote in a letter to his son Christopher:

It is distressing to see the press grovelling in the gutter as low as Goebbels in his prime, shrieking that any German commander who holds out in a desperate situation (when, too, the military needs of his side clearly benefit) is a drunkard, and a besotted fanatic ... There was a solemn article in the local paper seriously advocating systematic exterminating of the entire German nation as the only proper course after military victory: because, if you please, they are rattlesnakes, and don't know the difference between good and evil! (What of the writer?) The Germans have just as much right to declare the Poles and Jews exterminable vermin, subhuman, as we have to select the Germans: in other words, no right, whatever they have done.[89]

Off the top of my head, I can also remember a letter where he mocked a Nazi publisher for asking if he was "Aryan".

Of course, we don't have too many examples, but it's not like the guy consciously sat down and wrote about racism every chance he got. The overall attitude I get from all of these is that he didn't really look down on any "race".

 

[Musashi Wins!]

Were you really looking for an explanation of the underclass of LoTR? Was that part a joke?

Wasn't Tolkien an Inkling or whatever that Christian writers group was known as with C.S. Lewis and such?