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[genjiZERO]

1. JRR Tolkien was not a racist. If you read his Letters he specifically talks about how deplorable the way Africans (specifically South Africans) were treated, and how awful colonialism was.

2. JRR Tolkien was not anti-Semitic. Again, in Letters he explicitly says anti-Semiticism was wrong. He refuses to publish The Hobbit in German because he would not testify that he was "Arisch" (Aryan). Also, he says that part of Eldar culture was based around Hebrew culture.

3. It is flatly ignorant and inappropriate to complain that there are not enough "non-Whites" in Middle Earth. Middle Earth is a mythology about the British (specifically English) people. It makes sense that all the characters are based on cultures that influenced the development of English culture. To complain that there are not enough "non-Whites" in stories of Middle Earth is as absurd as to complain that there are not enough non-Japanese in the Nihon Shoki. Furthermore, although it is now culturally-correct to add token ethnicities to stories, in relatively ethnically homogeneous England during WW2 no such restriction applied. It it unfair to place a modern restriction and sensibility on an artist fro the past

4. Hobbits have brown skin (reread the first couple of chapters in Fellowship...).

 

[zon]

Of course not.

Stupid shit like this pisses me off

 

[Always-honest]

unintentional.. yeah.. who knows..

at least there ARE different races in the book..... like realy different races... not just HUMANS

 

[bengraven]

(note: apologies for my posts last night, my joking on Tolkien and Martin wasn't obvious apparently)

Tolkien was raised in Africa for the first few years of his life. While he was upper-class and had house servants, he had respect for the African people and had spoken about their plight for some time.

The only quote I seem to be able to find is naturally on Wiki:

He also said of racial segregation in South Africa,

"The treatment of colour nearly always horrifies anyone going out from Britain"

Which I was apparently beaten to.

4. Hobbits have brown skin (reread the first couple of chapters in Fellowship...).

I don't know about that, but I do remember one of the last chapters of Return where it's commented that Sam put his brown hand on Frodo's. As I first read this when I was young it made me suddenly wonder if Sam was a black slave to Frodo.

And then I remembered he was a gardener.

Speaking of the Wiki, this little exchange is kind of awesome:

German translation

In letters 29 & 30, it appears that a German translation of The Hobbit was being negotiated in 1938. The German firm inquired whether Tolkien was of Arisch (Aryan) origin. Tolkien was infuriated by this, and wrote two drafts of possible replies for his publisher to choose.[1] The first one is not present - in it Tolkien is assumed to have refused to give any declaration whatsoever of his racial origins. The second, surviving, draft included:

"Thank you for your letter ... I regret that I am not clear as to what you intend by arisch. I am not of Aryan extraction: that is Indo-Iranian; as far as I am aware noone (sic) of my ancestors spoke Hindustani, Persian, Gypsy, or any related dialects. But if I am to understand that you are enquiring whether I am of Jewish origin, I can only reply that I regret that I appear to have no ancestors of that gifted people."

Tolkien vs. the Nazis.

 

[genjiZERO]

I don't know about that, but I do remember one of the last chapters of Return where it's commented that Sam put his brown hand on Frodo's. As I first read this when I was young it made me suddenly wonder if Sam was a black slave to Frodo.

That's exactly what I'm talking about (sorry I got the book wrong). I was certainly being coy, but that line can be interpreted in several different ways. Literally, that Sam (and therefore Hobbits?) has brown skin. Or that it became brown (tan) because of his exposure to the sun (because he was a gardener). However, I think it should be noted that Sam had not been gardening for quite a while before he is described as being "brown", and since they were avoiding daylight I think it's reasonable to assume that any "farmer's tan" he may have had would be gone at that point in the story. This may be over-analysing, but remember this is Tolkien we're talking about...

My personal opinion is that Tolkien is talking about having a sun-tan (as opposed to being naturally tan), but Hobbits are pretty obviously based upon Britons and English countryfolk who (being of Gallic origin) are usually described as being "brown-skinned". So I think it's reasonable to conclude that Hobbits were a shade darker than some of the other groups in Middle Earth. But similar to the way people from Provance are darker than others in France, for example.

 

[Synth_floyd]

It's not racist but it seems to present a very Euro and Caucasian centric world view. All the races of the alliance are white. And all the people with Sauron were colored. It also (like Star Wars) espouses the ideology that great people are born and not made. So if you're born a king you will be great. If you're born a peasant, you'll work hard and live a simple life. Read the Slate article. It's not outright racist but it's ideology is antiquated and is not something that you would want to teach to kids or the easily impressionable.

 

[Kabuki Waq]

i thought it was pretty obvious.

300 was the most racist tho. Persians I have met are pretty light skinned.

 

[eXistor]

Everything ever made is racist to some people.

 

[Tim the Wiz]

Scrow, I know this is about tastes, and we all have different tastes, but I must ask ... why do you feel it is "not very good"?

Scrow is referring to the argument championed by modern genre authors such as Richard Morgan and Michael Moorcock that Lord of the Rings is a novel that contains a moralistic worldview too irritatingly simplistic for the adult reader to withstand the entire way through. I personally don't agree with the opinion that a simplistic worldview immediatedly destroys the possibility of enjoying such a text at an adult level. Even the most basic of stories can resonate for the complexly-minded reader. To be honest, though, I probably wouldn't mind not reading Lord of the Rings outside of Fellowship (the strongest in my opinion, and the reason why people can't stop until they finish the trilogy - at least the first time through) ever again. The Silmarillion is where it's at, anyway.

 

[Tim the Wiz]

i thought it was pretty obvious.

300 was the most racist tho. Persians I have met are pretty light skinned.

:lol If you're serious and are going on depiction of skin colour, let's not even go into the Holywood series of big-budget historical epics last century. Especially a little film called Cleopatra. The scientific world is not absent of such perception either, remember the surprise when it was found that Cleopatra had "African bones"? Not that I doubt her Greek heritage, but rather I'm amazed at the ongoing assumption that her lineage over numerous generations would not intermingle with the local population.

 

[Kabuki Waq]

:lol If you're serious and are going on depiction of skin colour, let's not even go into the Holywood series of big-budget historical epics last century. Especially a little film called Cleopatra. The scientific world is not absent of such perception either, remember the surprise when it was found that Cleopatra had "African bones"? Not that I doubt her Greek heritage, but rather I'm amazed at the ongoing assumption that her lineage over numerous generations would not intermingle with the local population.

Yea but in this day and age and after reading some of millers interviews it was pretty obvious what he was going for.:lol

 

[Hari Seldon]

It's not racist but it seems to present a very Euro and Caucasian centric world view. All the races of the alliance are white. And all the people with Sauron were colored. It also (like Star Wars) espouses the ideology that great people are born and not made. So if you're born a king you will be great. If you're born a peasant, you'll work hard and live a simple life. Read the Slate article. It's not outright racist but it's ideology is antiquated and is not something that you would want to teach to kids or the easily impressionable.

I disagree 100%. The entire theme of the book is that even a person born of low station can become "great" through courage, friendship, love, etc.

Frodo and Sam were born "peasants" and were clearly the main heroes of the trilogy. Also, there are many examples of great people in the trilogy being corrupted.

 

[The Take Out Bandit]

Hmm, so anyone thinking that there are racist undertones in LOTR must be a "person of color perpetually whining and bitching about whitey".

I didn't really get that from reading this thread, but I'm glad we have you to come into it and explain it for us

... my man.

Or you could just be one of those self deprecating white guilt sorts looking to win brownie points for pointing out cultural transgressions your lineage may or may not have had any involvement in.

It's a fantasy novel series, get over it.

The only "problem" is it was written before the all inclusive age of target marketing and political correctness.

 

[OokieSpookie]

No.
People love to throw the race card around and look for racism everywhere and it is asinine.
It was written by Tolkien to be an english legend tale because he felt that they did not have many of their own.
There are many different races covered in the literature, so by context it can not be racial just because it does not have a race in it acting as you think that it should.

It reminds me of the Spike Lee and Clint Eastwood situation.

 

[Pojo]

Does it have Asians in it? Or Native Americans?

Next up: King Kong and Resident Evil 5.

 

[ZombieSupaStar]

when you say quality, you're talking about its lack of right?

i read LotR about 3 times in my younger years... but as I've got older and my tastes matured i absolutely can't stand to read it anymore. it's just not very good.

as for the racist issue... i always got that impression, but I was never sure if I was seeing something that wasn't really there.

did we invent potatoes only recently?

*begins photo shopping beret and latte onto scrows avatar*

 

[Gantz]

If you want racist you should complain about the upcoming Dragon Ball and Avatar the Last Airbender movies.

 

[Dark Octave]

If you want racist you should complain about the upcoming Dragon Ball and Avatar the Last Airbender movies.

Or 300.

As much as I like that movie, I'll never undertsand why the graphic novel had black Spartans but the movie didn't.

 

[Bren McGuire]

I severly doubt Lord of the Rings has an unreliable narrator. One of many reasons being that LotRs has an omniscient narrator in the 3rd person.

While Lord of the Rings has a narrator in 3rd person, Tolkien intended it to be a translated version of the book that Frodo wrote at the end of the story just as the Hobbit is meant to be a translated version of the book There and back again that Bilbo finished at the beginning of LotR. So the narrator could very well be unreliable.

 

[shaowebb]

Just found out about this new title last night from my brother and I am already beyond pumped.
Looks like a cross between Megaman and Pulseman.
Plus dear God the engrish. I loves me some engrish.

 

[AndresON777]

At least they brought out white orcs in the return of the king. Gothmog was white so I think that was pretty cool of them.

 

[Bumblebeetuna]

Ugh.. reading this thread makes my head hurt.

 

[Xrenity]

Those tree guys might have been black.

:lol

Really, this discussion is pointless and dumb. I bet Sesame street is racist if you look into it.

 

[Raist]

All the races of the alliance are white. And all the people with Sauron were colored.

No and no. Dunlendings where white, evil and fought with Sauron. Saruman and Wormtongue are other examples. Wose men, who were quite the equivalent of amerindians were on the good side and fought orcs for thousands of years.

It also (like Star Wars) espouses the ideology that great people are born and not made. So if you're born a king you will be great. If you're born a peasant, you'll work hard and live a simple life. Read the Slate article. It's not outright racist but it's ideology is antiquated and is not something that you would want to teach to kids or the easily impressionable.

It's like the exact opposite. Hobbits have succeeded where the so called superior human/elf lineage (numenoreans) have failed miserably (Isildur, Boromir, Denethor to name a few)

Did you ever read the book / watch the movie?

 

[Byakuya769]

Or you could just be one of those self deprecating white guilt sorts looking to win brownie points for pointing out cultural transgressions your lineage may or may not have had any involvement in.

It's a fantasy novel series, get over it.

The only "problem" is it was written before the all inclusive age of target marketing and political correctness.

Sure, but it is a little worrisome that anytime anyone even poses the question of racism (even unintentional) it has to be immediately met with "QUIT WHINING". Furthermore, assuming that it's obviously people of color or self loathers who could pose that question, seems dangerously reactionary.

I kind of have to ask if you even read the OP, or did you just respond to the title of the thread? Personally, I believe there is plenty evidence to suggest that the books are not racist in intent, and there is a perfectly sound reason for the racial make-up of the protagonists.. given what the lore is supposed to be in the first place. I just found your knee jerk response to tell people to suck it and shut up, a little.. odd

... my man.

 

[captive]

Female character kills one of the most powerful enemies in the series. A hobbit (a minority that is ignored by the world of the "big folk") overcomes everything and saves Middle Earth.

Stop looking for shit that isn't there.

thank you.

This is ridiculous. I swear some of the people in this thread never even read the book.

 

[Always-honest]

new definition of racism: when there's no black person involved.

 

[Steppenwolf]

The world of Middle Earth is insired by european mythology. Why would there be blacks in it? Thats the most ridiculous thing i have read today.

 

[JayDubya]

No. And this is silly to even speculate about.

The examples thus far seem to amount to orcs... and the humans that worked for Sauron.

As orcs are as real as dwarves or balrogs, the iconic Tolkien orc is nothing like any human ethnicity I am aware of, and these races are actual RACES - unique species - rather than the stupid way the term is colloquially used on Earth... Okay. If we want to conclude that Tolkien is racist against his own creation, a fictional species of entirely evil green-skinned cannibalistic warriors...

As for the humans that worked for Sauron; well, I'm not intimately familiar with all the backstory of the... Haradrum? But, like if Sauron had won at Pellenor Fields... don't you think he'd eventually be sporting some nice new Gondorian recruits?

I'm sure one of GAF's resident Sumarillion (sic?) scholars could point out more about why this is silly.

 

[Always-honest]

and these races are actual RACES - unique species - rather than the stupid way the term is colloquially used on Earth..

this.

 

[zombieshavebrains]

Dude, the whole point of the Uruk-Hai was that they weren't full-blooded at all. They were described in the book as half-orc, half-troll abominations of nature.

So there were more mixed races shown in the movie due to the huge armies of orcs than all the white humans and elves put together. Case closed, nothing to see here.

Pretty sure there were some darker skin people on the elephants and ships but i couldn't tell because you know...kinda hard to see behind fucking masks.

 

[Raist]

As for the humans that worked for Sauron; well, I'm not intimately familiar with all the backstory of the... Haradrum? But, like if Sauron had won at Pellenor Fields... don't you think he'd eventually be sporting some nice new Gondorian recruits?

I'm sure one of GAF's resident Sumarillion (sic?) scholars could point out more about why this is silly.

Haradrim. And Silmarillion.

These people were not even described as evil by Tolkien himself. They were simply abused by Sauron, who promised them revenge over the numenoreans, and he would offer them Gondor as a reward if they fought for him.
In the Silmarillion (or Unfinished Tales, or both, can't remember) Haradrim have initially been deceived by the generations of Numenoreans that went batshit insane. They originally brought peace and knowledge, but eventually stole their lands and enslaved them.

 

[Learn2read]

No and no. Dunlendings where white, evil and fought with Sauron.

They were brown skinned actually.

 

[Gadfly]

thank you.

This is ridiculous. I swear some of the people in this thread never even read the book.

Give me a break and don't assume anybody that disagrees with you is an idiot looking for something that is not there or has not read the book.

I have read the book five or six times. It is racist whether he intended that to be the case or not. Saurun's allies (save a couple of individuals) are all dark people and coming from south and east.

Being racist doesn't mean that you portray all colored people as bad. no. Rather, most bad people are colored and most nobel brave people are white with golden hair.

And somebody who at every step has to be told what to do (Aragon) with no leadership qualities deserves to be the king because he was born king. yeah .. right.

As for Sam and Frodo, the book teaches you if you are not nobility, seek happiness in being content with what you are and endanger your life for others and don't expect anything in return.

Tolkien in my opinion was a typical right wing Christian with all the baggage. Even when he supports weak and oppressed it is from "charity" point of view.

 

[Raist]

They were brown skinned actually.

Yes, but they were not of "coloured race" like the Haradrim, they just had brown skin because they lived mostly outside, in the woods. They descend from the house of Haleth IIRC, so they have common ancestors with the dunedans.
And just like the Haradrim, they were harassed by the "lol let's go batshit insane, conquer everything and say FU tio the Valar" dunedans.

The house of Beor, which was not really evil people AFAIK, were brown-skinned too.

 

[shuri]

Or 300.

As much as I like that movie, I'll never undertsand why the graphic novel had black Spartans but the movie didn't.

But wasnt Greece, back them, really hardcore about citizenships and all that. I wonder if there were actual non-white greek citizens back then. Slaves who wanted to upgrade to the regular class had to do some crazy feats, or being approved by someone.. My highschool history classes are pretty far away :lol , but I do remember how they were hardcore about being a 'citizen' and how being one gave you all sorts of crazy rights, and that not being one made you pretty much worthless. They were very protective back of their special clubs.

Spartans were like this super elite class of soldiers, so I wonder if they even considered non-citizens for that.

edit
from wiki:

The Spartan people (the "Lacedaemonians") were divided in three classes: Full citizens, known as the Spartiates proper or Homoioi ("equals"), who received a grant of land (kleros) for their military service. The second class were the Perioeci, free non-citizens, generally merchants, craftsmen and sailors, who were used as light infantry and on auxiliary roles on campaign.[7] The third and most numerous class were the Helots, state-owned serfs used to farm the Spartiate kleros. By the 5th century BC, the helots too were used as light troops in skirmishes.[1] The Spartiates were the core of the Spartan army

edit2 - wait, theres more

The Spartans were therefore forced to use helot hoplites, and occasionally they freed some of the Laconian helots, the neodamodeis, and gave them land to settle in exchange for military service.

ahh so maybe they were.

 

[Raist]

As for Sam and Frodo, the book teaches you if you are not nobility, seek happiness in being content with what you are and endanger your life for others and don't expect anything in return.

Not going to go through your all post, been there done that already (you're basically wrong) but this one is very, very wrong.
Didn't the hobbit heroes get nobility titles from Gondor and Rohan? Hasn't Aragorn made the Shire a protected place, and an official territory of the Hobbits? Whereas before that nobody gave a fuck about it and would even treat the hobbits pretty badly?
So how did they get nothing in return exactly?

 

[Jonm1010]

Wasnt one of the undercurrent themes of the book the feuding between the elves and the dwarves which was meant to be a side comment on race and stereotyping?

 

[szhred]

new definition of racism: when there's no black person involved.

THIS




Jurassic Park is racist because there was no asians and or black people that were help out or did something mayor in the movie.

Matrix IS racist. Becouse there aren't 4 kinds of Neo. One black. One asian. One white. One alien. Same goes with the agents.

 

[faceless007]

Jurassic Park is racist because there was no asians and or black people that were help out or did something mayor in the movie.

Samuel L. Jackson was the chief security officer and one of the lead scientists was clearly shown to be Asian.

 

[JayDubya]

Samuel L. Jackson was the chief security officer and one of the lead scientists was clearly shown to be Asian.

Yeah, but none of the dinosaurs were black, and they were the real stars of the film.

No black T-Rex = racism total.

 

[viciouskillersquirrel]

THIS




Jurassic Park is racist because there was no asians and or black people that were help out or did something mayor in the movie.

Matrix IS racist. Becouse there aren't 4 kinds of Neo. One black. One asian. One white. One alien. Same goes with the agents.

Actually, one of the former "ones" was asian (Seraph) and the Merovingian was French.

The elements of racism in LotR that I see aren't because of the absense of dark skinned people so much, as much as demonisation of the dark-skinned southerners / easterners and the absolute evil nature of orcs etc. Whether this is intentional or not, I cannot say, but xenophobic elements are certainly there, not to mention Tolkien's views on born leadership etc.

 

[usea]

Acts aren't racist. A work (book, movie, billboard) can't be racist. Racism is a belief or mindset held by people.

 

[Gadfly]

Actually, one of the former "ones" was asian (Seraph) and the Merovingian was French.

The elements of racism in LotR that I see aren't because of the absense of dark skinned people so much, as much as demonisation of the dark-skinned southerners / easterners and the absolute evil nature of orcs etc. Whether this is intentional or not, I cannot say, but xenophobic elements are certainly there, not to mention Tolkien's views on born leadership etc.

Thanks you.

 

[Raist]

Wasnt one of the undercurrent themes of the book the feuding between the elves and the dwarves which was meant to be a side comment on race and stereotyping?

Or men and elves. Or men and dunedans. Or dunedans and rohirrim. Etc, etc, etc.

I wonder if people calling for racism here would find the Akallabeth (the story of the fall of Numenor) racist. I mean, all the bad guys were white and tall. wtf JRR!

The elements of racism in LotR that I see aren't because of the absense of dark skinned people so much, as much as demonisation of the dark-skinned southerners / easterners and the absolute evil nature of orcs etc. Whether this is intentional or not, I cannot say, but xenophobic elements are certainly there, not to mention Tolkien's views on born leadership etc.

Demonisation? wtf. And hu yeah of course Orcs are evil, they were elves perverted by Morgoth. And yeah, they were grey/brown/olive tanned. What did you expect? Pink? :/
It's not black = evil, it's dark = evil. Completely different. If anything, the LotR is manichean (actually not that much if you really read it carefully and take the whole universe into consideration). But racist? No.